What is the appeal of old cars?

[michaeld]

I watched the movie Cars this evening (I'm way too pragmatic to pay full price for a movie when I can see if for a dollar at the discount theater a couple/few months later!).  I would have enjoyed seeing what personality the animators would give to an old Benz, but alas, no Benzes.  I'm one of those silly men who prefer seeing children's movies to R-rated adult movies; it's nice having a clear theme, vs. the "life is much too difficult and complicated to for us to give you any kind of a clear statement" type-movies.  Besides, action-adventure movies have become pathetically forumlaic and predictable; kids' movies offer an exciting untapped frontier of plots.

Any way, there was a line midway thru the movie, while the demise of the town of Radiator Springs was described.  The idealistic girlie-Porsche said, "Now cars are made to get there, but there was a time when they were made to enjoy the ride."  That is a rather significant thought, don't you think?

Some of the old timers talk disparagingly about newer cars completely disconnecting the "feel of the road" from drivers.  They decry that the days when one felt the vibration of the engine, the feel of the tires on the pavement, etc are simply gone forever, replaced by a machine that simply gets one from one place to another.  Is that true?  What do you think?  Also, there then comes the question of degree: should one feel EVERY mechanical element of the driver's interaction w/ the car and the car's interaction with the road, or is there some happy medium?  I recall that one of the articles posted on the forum features a complaint that the 450SE/SEL "isolates" drivers from the road...

There are several reasons why I like old cars: 1) the safety of having a lot of weight and metal protecting me (which I trust over air bags and crumpling compartments); the lower cost of purchase and insurance; 3) the ability to save money by doing my own repair (additionally, parts are cheaper, but this might be balanced by the fact that older cars may generally require more repair than newer ones).  In addition, I might point to 4) the satisfaction of continuing to use something that continues to be usable rather than throwing it away.

But is there more than that?  Is there a charm about driving an older car that newer cars just don't seem to have anymore?  What is it?

I drive older cars primarily because I can't afford (or at least don't want to pay for ) a new car when an older one will do the job.  But some of you guys have the dough to easily afford new cars.  What keeps you driving old cars?  What does an old car give you that a new one doesn't?

[Denis]

Hello gentlemen

My answer is very much a reflection of what exists in France but here goes:

Old cars TALK to their drivers ( seat of pant, eyes, ears, sight)

Normal new cars are totally BORING (mute).

In France, if you want to go from A to B, common sense dictates that you:
- take the bus, tram, etc...
- take the TGV ( train grande vitesse = high speed train)

The TGV is as affordable, quiet, smooth, silent and BORING just like those new cars but it gets you from A to B very much faster than new cars and far more safely.

If you want to go from A to B with a normal new car, you just waddle along until you get stuck in some traffic jam...this kind of car does nothing to/for me.

When I drive, I want the car to do something to/for me.

Now just look at the new Alfa Romero 8C competizione  ....that can do something to/for you...but I can't afford one 

Denis

Paris, France

[robgee]

Hi Michael my personal opinion is that driving older cars is probably viewed by mainstream motorists as somewhat eccentric and I think that most of us fit that mould but I also think we are hankering after that individual style that is markedly lacking in most modern cars.Call it searching for something anacronistic if you will  but I beleive we all probably crave that individualistic nature of such cars and that in itself speaks volumes for the individuals who crave these automobiles.
I suppose from many comments I've read on the forum at the time these cars were new most of us could not afford them or were just not old enough to drive them so I believe its also a form of escapeism, we can be who ever we choose to be in our own minds behind the wheel and it brings back those perhaps nostalgic thought of youth.So its probably also for some a cathartic experience.
But for me I'm just an eccentric and happy to be so.
Regards,
Rob.

[oscar]

Hi Michaeld,

It's a great movie for a kid flic isn't it. PIXAR has got a good rep of attracting audiences of all ages and their research and attention detail in creating their stories is clever and admirable.  We took the kids to see the movie when it came out here and I was really taken back by the appearance of the older cars and the old town Radiator Springs. 

I'm no expert on or collector of 40's/50's/60's American culture but I lurrv the style.  From cars, fashion, music to kitchen items, advertising art, the works.  Again, no expert but I first heard of Norman Rockwell about 10 years ago and fell in love with some of his paintings that typified what I imagined the era to be.  I'm a real sucker for it and when it comes to automobiles, I think you guys made some of the best looking vehicles ever created.   When I got back home after the movie, my wife and I looked up info on the Hudson (I just had to ask my wife what Doc was), "a '55 Hudson Hornet" she says  .  We want one. (Just checked, it was a '52 but don't tell her)

Regarding the town, it makes me wonder how many Radiator Springs are out there in the US.  Because not long after seeing the movie I saw a US news story about the anniversary of the US Interstate.  The bloke being interviewed had written a book about it's beginnings to the present and whilst I don't think he referred to the movie, he made mention of the number of towns and small economies that were affected when the interstate bypassed them.

Similar happenings have occured here in Oz, but because of our relatively small population, on such a smaller scale compared to the US. Everything usually is except the distances.  The long stretches of dual carriageways or freeways are great for getting from A to B fast as Denis says.  And yes it is boring.  A freeway is not experiencing the countryside.  We will often follow old routes and try and find new ones whenever we go to Melbourne, Sydney or Canberra.  Buy fuel from the smaller service stations and food from smaller cafes, not the super-dooper multinational service centres.  Unfortunately time dictates how we travel and how much time we spend on the old roads.

Back to 116's, your questions are rhetorical as I think you answer them well anytime you've typed a reflective post and I enjoy reading them.  My take on the "enjoy the ride" quote is I think it's spot on and defines a split between two periods when motoring became travelling.   Certainly the modern era has taken away from the senses.  After the joy of getting my car right recently, I just want to drive it even though at work I can get dog-tired travelling upto 6hrs a day.  Cars of the motoring era had style and typified motoring and the routes you took didn't bypass anything.  The 116 has got the style but adds comfort, quality and geez what else can I say? It puts a smile on your dial when you sit behind the wheel. It stimulates the senses, sight, sound and above all sensation.

Who knows when the golden age of motoring began and when it became travelling in a "machine that gets you there."  Exempt a few modern classics that I can't think of and are too expensive, I think the average Joe in the modern machine is missing out on an experience when they travel.  After my first and recent big trip away in the 350, it's so easy to understand why so many people own older classics of any marque.

And whilst I'm searching for words, Rob typed his thoughts and I couldn't have finished off better. Escapeism! For me it partly takes me back to an era I didn't experience first hand. My car was born the same year as me but somehow takes me back further.


A '52 Hudson



The actual Hudson they modelled 'Doc' (Paul Newman) on. I think. Maybe. 
What does the coupe next to it look like ist das ein Gullwing If so, Doc keeps good company

[kenny]

I think I got the car bug from my Grandfather. He ran a gas station from the Great Depression until he died. He lived in Mercedes, Texas, about 5 miles from Mexico. My earliest memory of one of his cars was a Hudson.  My cousins called it the Big Un. It was big and heavy and fast if not too quick. He went from that to Impalas, and later Caprices, always with the biggest engines. That's my idea of a good situation.  Cheap gas and access to mechanics.  I bet the mechanic work was cheap too.

When he'd drive my sisters and me back to Houston (about 350 miles) after summer vacation was over, we'd always drive home at night through the King Ranch which is bigger, I believe than the US state of Rhode Island. This is not saying much for Rhode Island as it is not a big state, but it gives the idea of the size of the ranch.  Aside from the occasional javelina or a coyote, the hour-long drive through the ranch was usually uninterrupted by other traffic including the police.  It gave Granddad a chance to show me what she'd do and so while the girls slept in the back, I'd ride shotgun and he'd show me the benefits of "blowing out the carbon". He'd nail it at about 90 and I'd look out the back to see the carbon blowing out, but I never could.  I saw 110 and I think he could've done better, but that was the limit with kids in the car, I guess.

As time passed, the cars got duller.  They were big and fast, but they lacked the feel of the Big Un.  I guess that's one thing I am trying to recapture.

[michaeld]

My take on the "enjoy the ride" quote is I think it's spot on and defines a split between two periods when motoring became travelling.   Certainly the modern era has taken away from the senses.  After the joy of getting my car right recently, I just want to drive it even though at work I can get dog-tired travelling upto 6hrs a day.  Cars of the motoring era had style and typified motoring and the routes you took didn't bypass anything.  The 116 has got the style but adds comfort, quality and geez what else can I say? It puts a smile on your dial when you sit behind the wheel. It stimulates the senses, sight, sound and above all sensation.

Sometimes, when I'm visiting the forum to see if anyone responded to a post I've written, I'm like a kid in a candy store; you guys really delivered some "sweet" posts.  Made my day reading them!

I think Oscar captured the sense of nostalgia and that sense of hanging on to a bygone age (what Robgee called "escapism") perfectly, and kenny served up a personal illustration of it.  Denis verified that yes, older cars really DO do something that permits drivers to experience the road that today's cars are somehow lacking.  Magnificent, all.

I've only had five cars in my life (and two motorcycles), which gives me a very limited base of comparison  (I tend to hold on to my cars for years).  Some of you guys who've had dozens of cars have a lot more experience to relate than I in this regard.

I really like Oscar's distinction between motoring and travelling.  And his research on the phenomenon of interstates killing towns.  And his pictures of the Hudson.  We don't tend to stop and wonder enough how what happened before (or for that matter even what's going on right now) affect things we care about.  So here we have this phenomenon of interstates coming along and completely changing the nature of roads, towns, and really an entire way of life (at least in the USA).  And when you really think about it, that almost HAD to have a real impact on what kind of cars were built and how those cars were built.  Everyone recognizes the OPEC embargo in 1973 changed the way cars were made, but how about the introduction of the massive interstates over and against the Route 66s of the world?

My physics may be a little screwed up, but I kind of view horsepower as pushing power, and torque more as pulling power.  Old cars used to have these enormous engines that generated massive torque, and you were just pulled along the road.  Today's cars have smaller engines based on huge horsepower, and that creates a decidedly different feeling as you accelerate.  Then there's the weight of the cars themselves: apart from the greater feeling of crash-proof safety that I derive when driving an older car, the heavier older cars just seem to 'roll with more soul' than the lightweight newer cars (yes, I are a quite a poet, aren't I  ?).  I'd be interested in hearing more from Denis in terms of describing his take on precisely how the older cars provide more road-feeling than newer ones.

I about laughed my *** off reading about Kenny as a young boy carefully inspecting the rear window for signs of carbon being blown out while grandpa opened her up for a little haulin' session.

BTW, Oscar, I don't intend to ask rhetorical questions in the sense of asking questions just so I can proceed to give you all "the answer."  Rather, I am seeking to ask more subjective questions - in which different responses are equally appropriate - and then give you my own, decidedly-individual take on the matter.  There are those hard/cold fact questions ("When did Napolean invade Russia?") where the only correct answer is "1812."  And then there are questions such as, "What do you like most about older cars?") in which the correct answer is _____________.  There are even questions that seem like they could or should have one correct answer ("What is the greatest basketball team of all time?") but which turn out to have too many variables for a final clear verdict.  I like discussion-generating questions.  One of my thrills about being part of a forum like this is trying to generate discussion - or even debate - on subjects that the forum finds interesting.  I'll try to be more clear about my intentions in that regard in the future, but that's what I'm aiming at in most of my posts.

PPS, that Hudson (if you didn't see the Cars movie, just check out Oscar's pics) sure does have a sense of dignity about it, doesn't it (whether it's accompanied by Paul Newman's voice or not!).

[Nutz]

My answer is simple..the minimalism!  Plus new cars aren't drowning in chrome or even possess a soul.Just a hunk of plastic with miles upon miles of wires.

I was going to pick up a year 2000'ish truck for work but decided to pick up this 1 ton '69 Chevy which doesn't get any simpler to work on than this.   Plus no payments and dealers to screw me over 

[oscar]

BTW, Oscar, I don't intend to ask rhetorical questions in the sense of asking questions just so I can proceed to give you all "the answer."  Rather, I am seeking to ask more subjective questions - in which different responses are equally appropriate - and then give you my own, decidedly-individual take on the matter. 

Yeah sorry about that Michael.  It was way after midnight and it was one of those posts where I had something to say, waffled for ages and hoped everybody got my point   I'm glad you got my point about the motoring era v the travelling era. That was my main reply for your question although I'm sure I could've said it in fewer words.     Motoring as a term or the motoring era and older cars could be explained further but I'm a bit brain-drained tonight to try.

Rhetorical was the wrong word.  What I meant to say was something like this. Regarding what's the appeal of older cars, I think you've answered that particular question very well in some of your previous threads where posters joined the chorus of others trying to define the attraction to 116's or classics or older cars.  I wont go searching for links but I'm sure you know the threads I'm speaking of.  As I said, I enjoy reading them, keep 'em coming

[michaeld]

Guys,

Why buy an older car?  There are a LOT of reasons, aren't there?  And I think that some of the reasons actually conflict w/ other - perfectly valid - reasons, because different people will do the same thing for different reasons.

I read an article in my local paper today, titled "Route 66 visitors leave with desire to own a classic car" (by Richard Brooks, Press Enterprise staff writer).  It covered an event called "The Stater Bros. Route 66 Rendezvous," and interviewed a few people that had succumbed to the desire to buy a classic car.  One of the men said, "I have about $80,000 in this car.  And I'm at the bottom end of this insanity.  I've seen people spend anywhere from a quarter-million to a half-million on a car."

My brother has fully restored a 64 Thunderbird, and the car has actually won or placed in the top three at a significant number of local car shows.  Nevertheless, it is a "driver" car (though not a daily).  He told me once that a significant number of "car show" people will bring their cars to the show site on a flat bed - and after unloading it get to work scrubbing and polishing.  These cars rarely ever see the road!

From what I've read of you'all, you aint such people.  But nevertheless, there are a plethora of reasons for buying a so-called "classic car."  Some of us - like myself - buy them for cheap transportation.  Some buy them for other reasons.  Some put a significant amount of money into them, and then only drive them on occasion; others - again, like me - consider them daily drivers and are more concerned with their mechanical reliability than their appearance.

There really IS something special about old cars; and in particular, there really is something special about old Mercedes-Benzes, isn't there?  It's interesting to hear exactly what that special something is, methinks.

Now, I'm taking a gander at Nutz's work truck, and the first thing that occurs to me is that you don't have to treat that monster too daintily, do you.  My second thought is, I bet that thing is actually as tough as new truck commercials pretend their trucks are!  (You know what I'm talking about, where the truck endures all kinds of horrendous abuse and comes out of it still looking brand new?  What a pathetic joke!  You could dent most new trucks by sneezing too hard!).

Oscar, no need to apologize to me.  It's not like you called me a bad name or anything ("What'd you call me?  A 'rhetorical'!?  Why you dirty...").  I appreciate your "keep 'em coming" vote, and I actually really appreciated that particular post of yours.  It seems like you got the same nostalgiac bug that I did from Cars, and I really liked the way you expressed the practical reality of both the interstate phenomenon and the appeal of old cars.  You keep 'em coming!
Mike

[michaeld]

Actually, all of you guys miss the point-I mean I love your posts and contributions, even though sometimes MichaelD's are a level or two above what my feeble little brain can take in. In reality, old cars are, indeed, quite horrible.

Ah, Styria; I resemble that remark!

I actually do apologize for my philosophical bent on mechanical things.  I consider myself an intellectual, but define an intellectual as someone who is drawn to the study of fundamental (and therefore often somewhat abstract) reality rather than as someone who is intelligent.  People like me are constantly pondering the mysteries of life - and misplacing the thing I had in my hand only a moment ago!  One of my former students was limited by moderate Downs Syndrome, but he was an intellectual if I ever saw one!  Boy that young man loved to learn, and worked hard to keep up.

I personally don't see "old" as tantamount to "horrible," but receive Styria's point: there is a difference between an old "hoopty" and an old "classic."  And condition is paramount.  Only a fool would pay a few hundred $ for an ordinary old car, and then dump thousands into it to make it roadworthy.

But I think there are significant differences to even old "quality" cars and the new cars that one can buy today for under $15000.  The new cars have more horsepower (often even more than the 6.9), more creature comforts, better fuel economy, and more (at least short-term) reliability.  They also have some pretty impressive factory warranties.  It's not like there aren't any good reasons to buy new, which is why so many people do.  And therein lies my question: why not buy new?

I buy old cars because I've generally found running them cost me considerably less than buying (and then insuring) new.  (Alas, it turns out that being an intellectual doesn't always pay well).  I compound that with the fact that I frankly don't give one whit what other people think about me: I figure if you're going to judge me "unworthy" because of whatever I drive, then I really don't care to experience the pleasure of your company anyway!  My reasons for driving older cars are therefore simple and straightforward.  I also know some folk who have the cash to have the best of both worlds: having a new car AND an old classic.  It's the folk that COULD have a nice new car if they wanted, but CHOOSE to drive an old car (quality, classic, or otherwise) whose reasons most interest me.  I mean, I know I'm weird, but YOU guys .... 

I certainly agree with Styria that a 6.9 fits the bill of his search criteria.  "Iz all dat," as the gangsta-wannabes like to say.
Mike