Casey's 1978 Euro 6.9

[oversize]

Casey I'd be looking for water leaks and obvious rust for now.  Once they're sorted get it repainted.  If you take it any further, you may find it overwhelming and end up selling the car in pieces (at a loss), like so many have before you.  Many people don't realize that just stripping and re-assembling a car is a huge undertaking, let alone making susbstantial repairs in the process.  If that happens you may never get to enjoy it.

She looks like a great project to me, provided the condition reports are accurate

[jbrasile]

Guys,

Just got back from Essen.... prices for EVERYTHING for sale in the event were through the roof!!! I will post a lot of pictures in the next few days but since we are talking about 6.9's, there was this gorgeous Thistle Green car with green velour for sale at 54900euros!!! Low km, early model with no console wood and a possibly original Telefunken car phone with its own trunk mounted antenna.

Was it worth it... well again it all depends on what you are looking for. Could that car be reproduced for the asking price? Probably not.

In fact I think the talked about figure of US$50k is pretty light if you are looking at a "real" restoration. My client spent $75k on the 77 green 6.9 documented here in the Forum and it DID NOT need any engine work. The current owner has already invested another $12k on new seats from GAHH, XWX tires and a few more details that are making the car more and more perfect. We are now planning to do a full engine detail like I did on my 450SEL and will replace all cooling hoses, related gaskets,etc... with labor that's probably going to run another $6-7k.

In my opinion, having dealt with a few 6.9's in the last few years  the best two ways to go about owning  these incredible cars are:

1) Buy the absolute best car you can find, low mileage if possible, service records, mechanically perfect, good paint etc... pay the asking, make sure that figure matches the cars condition and be happy.

2) Embark on a cost no object restoration with no hopes to recover the investment and no time frame to finish, once its done, its done....

6.9's will always bite you in the A, you think you're finished... then all of a sudden the suspension starts dropping for no reason....then you take off hard from a red light and the transmission makes this awful noise as if the whole drive train is going to drop from under the car.... then the diff develops an annoying clunk when accelerating/decelerating, well you get the picture...

I still believe option #1 is the way to go and if I reeeeeeeeealy wanted a 6 9 and had the funds to own one, 54900 would actually be a bargain, just my 0.02

Tks

Joe

[alabbasi]

yep

[adamb]

In my opinion, having dealt with a few 6.9's in the last few years  the best two ways to go about owning  these incredible cars are:

1) Buy the absolute best car you can find, low mileage if possible, service records, mechanically perfect, good paint etc... pay the asking, make sure that figure matches the cars condition and be happy.

2) Embark on a cost no object restoration with no hopes to recover the investment and no time frame to finish, once its done, its done....

Joe, there is another and possibly better way I think Let's call it item zero. It is the most common way of owning a classic. I have done this since the mid 90s when I first got into old Benzes and the model works for me and, I am sure, many other persons on this list.

In a nutshell - buy the car which looks straight for an average amount of money. Neither top dollar showroom queen, nor a project requiring urgent work. For W116s the cost is region specific but I figure that in UK we are talking about around 5000 to 8000 pounds. There will be minor issues or things broken, or not working but the car will be driveable and usable. As owner you may spend some more thousands doing a respray (but not because you need to) or a few hundred here and there keeping the vehicle in a road worthy condition. Owners in this group don't buy XWX tyres though they will buy new rubber seals, chrome, etc as and when budgets become available.

I've moved house 3 times in my 6.9, using it as mule with rear bench removed. She's a practical but thirsty car. Not for every day but certainly for errands and occasional commuting duties. I am a happy owner and I fall neither into camp 1 or 2 above.

[Casey]

In a nutshell - buy the car which looks straight for an average amount of money. Neither top dollar showroom queen, nor a project requiring urgent work. For W116s the cost is region specific but I figure that in UK we are talking about around 5000 to 8000 pounds. There will be minor issues or things broken, or not working but the car will be driveable and usable. As owner you may spend some more thousands doing a respray (but not because you need to) or a few hundred here and there keeping the vehicle in a road worthy condition. Owners in this group don't buy XWX tyres though they will buy new rubber seals, chrome, etc as and when budgets become available.

I've moved house 3 times in my 6.9, using it as mule with rear bench removed. She's a practical but thirsty car. Not for every day but certainly for errands and occasional commuting duties. I am a happy owner and I fall neither into camp 1 or 2 above.

Indeed.  Despite all the naysaying my observations tell me that *most* people on this forum fall into this camp, as do I.  My every day car for the last year has been a 450, and while still a bit on the thirsty side it's really quite practical.  I have my rear bench and seatback removed at the moment for the same reason as I was moving my garage - throw a blanket down to protect the metal from scratches and you can fit quite a lot in the back - especially on the long wheelbase chassis!

[jbrasile]

I agree with item  0 Adam...

It's just that to fully enjoy the characteristics of a 6 9 or any 116, it pays to have as perfect a car as you can. I don't see anything wrong with using 205 Michelins on a 6.9 for example, in fact the green car had XT-AS's while under previous ownership and it looked and drove just as good. I have to admit however that driving and seeing  the beast with the "correct" tires gives you that little extra pleasure.

I for one drove my 78 450SEL for 3 years before embarking on the body restoration and felt good about it, paint was marginal,wheels had chips all over, etc... it was a 4-5 out of 10 points, BUT the all important interior looked as good as it does today. My 1980 450SEL in LA is FAR from perfect, bad  paint (cracked) on the trunk, chips, dings, a not so pretty engine compartment, decent interior though with some fading on the leather, great wood and chrome. Mechanically delicious and very reliable, do I like driving/owning it, you bet.... but let me say it took years and quite a few $$$ to get it to this point. I bought a beautiful car on the outside at the time  but that was hiding a myriad of problems underneath and that's  why as with a lot of things in life it all depends on your level of expectation vs the availability of funds. Back in 1999 it was the best I found and could afford so I bit the bullet, but I must admit that after the first huge bill came in and more issues kept popping up I almost gave up and sold the thing....

Having a little more experience today I would say you can probably draw more pleasure from owning a bare bone 280S (must have air though, hehehe...) that is as perfect as you can  afford than having an iffy high spec car. Just drive a really tired 6 9 and I am sure you will agree.

As for using an 036 to move house.... I couldn't do it!!! Sacrilege!!! Hehehehe.... I bet you got moved in really quick....

Guys, please don't take my comments as criticism, it is only my opinion based on  having driven and owned good and no so good cars.

Tks

Joe

[jbrasile]

Casey,

Nothing wrong with that... but you have to admit that driving your beautiful red car is an all together different experience isn't it?

I have some friends and know some very important collectors who prefer to have more cars that are 6-7 points  than fewer vehicles in the 8-10 category, and that is perfectly ok. Sometimes however as a professional,  I have to gauge someone's expectations and give the best advice possible and the good old saying "buy the best you can afford" most of the time applies.

Tks,

Joe

[alabbasi]

In a nutshell - buy the car which looks straight for an average amount of money. Neither top dollar showroom queen, nor a project requiring urgent work. For W116s the cost is region specific but I figure that in UK we are talking about around 5000 to 8000 pounds.

I think that if go back to the beginning of the thread, you'll see that this is the point that people are making. In short, it will cost you $20k to turn a $2k into a $10k car and $50k to turn it into a $20k car. So if you're planning on buying projects, then you better get really good at doing all the work yourself or you're better off finding a very presentable driver for $10-12k.

[John Hubertz]

Casey,

I have to stand tall in defense of your choice of car.  You wanted rear reclining seats - you have acquired rear reclining seats.  You wanted seat heaters, you acquired seat heaters.  You chose the CAR you wanted, and condition is something to be dealt with.

I made a similar choice when I bought Max.



Here is my reasoning - flawed as it may be.  If I am going to the considerable financial, spiritual and mental anguish necessary to own a car of this age (let alone a W116 with hydraulics), I want it to be THE CAR I TRULY WANT OF THAT AGE.

It seems to me some people in the old car hobby want an old car - preferably as new an old car as humanly possible.  I on the other hand want THE car.  Does this make sense?  I'm afraid I'm still childish enough to accept a car with a few warts and age spots (or more than a few) as long as it is the car from the brochure... or has a reclining seat, or is Plum Crazy purple, or whatever it is that turns me ON.

Casey, rock on my friend.  Your choice is a great one. 

[TJ 450]

I'd rather buy the cheap car and do the work (that's what I've always done), particularly if it has the features/options that are desirable.

There will always be people who will think this way of thinking is absurd though, as it is far from logical in terms of dollars and cents. It also depends on what sort of standard you are after.

It's also not the way to go if you want to win the concours, unless you have extremely deep pockets, or a lot of time.

That doesn't stop me though! All that matters is that I have the cars I want, and I can happily go about getting them sorted out in due course.

Tim

[Casey]

Nothing wrong with that... but you have to admit that driving your beautiful red car is an all together different experience isn't it?

Indeed, but not in all ways better.  The shabby 1974 450SE had it's own special appeals to it, and I could appreciate the overall coarseness.  And because it had a fair number of issues, minor things didn't really bother me much.  Whereas because the red 450SEL is in so nice of shape, the slightest imperfection or new noise will drive me nuts.  Really driving *any* W116 in any condition is a pleasure/adventure.  W123's have a totally different feel and just aren't as much fun for me, not to speak of anything newer which I find utterly boring.

I have some friends and know some very important collectors who prefer to have more cars that are 6-7 points  than fewer vehicles in the 8-10 category, and that is perfectly ok. Sometimes however as a professional,  I have to gauge someone's expectations and give the best advice possible and the good old saying "buy the best you can afford" most of the time applies.

I should probably clarify that when I say my plans are "complete restoration", that means to *my* standard which is surely lower than a $75k job.  Not that driving a $75k restoration wouldn't be a phenomenal experience, but I don't need to be that crazy with it to enjoy it and take well enough care to ensure the car lasts as long as I care to keep it.  I think maybe I did myself a disservice by using that phrase above.

[adamb]

As for using an 036 to move house.... I couldn't do it!!! Sacrilege!!! Hehehehe.... I bet you got moved in really quick....

Guys, please don't take my comments as criticism, it is only my opinion based on  having driven and owned good and no so good cars.

Hehe, sacrilege it may be but I own no other cars at this time.  A van is used for most things but that was only hired for a day. For the rest of the time the 6.9 did the job. Currently fuel is about US$2.30 per litre so it's not a cheap way to move house.

BTW, I'd love to try out a mint as new 6.9 but I'd give it back soon after. I'll enjoy it but it's not for me. Sometimes flaws are charms.

I am happy with all opinions inc flames 

[Casey]

It seems to me some people in the old car hobby want an old car - preferably as new an old car as humanly possible.  I on the other hand want THE car.  Does this make sense?  I'm afraid I'm still childish enough to accept a car with a few warts and age spots (or more than a few) as long as it is the car from the brochure... or has a reclining seat, or is Plum Crazy purple, or whatever it is that turns me ON.

I agree completely.  I fully admit that some of my desires are childish and seem a bit crazy, but I'd rather be be childlike and be able to more fully enjoy it than unhappy.  I'm not even fully disclosing some crazy notions I have in the back of my mind for this car at this point.

"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them." ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Casey]

Hehe, sacrilege it may be but I own no other cars at this time.  A van is used for most things but that was only hired for a day. For the rest of the time the 6.9 did the job. Currently fuel is about US$2.30 per litre so it's not a cheap way to move house.

I have personally realized, via various abuse to my different cars, that I really need a pickup truck.  If I buy any other vehicle this year, I expect it will be a truck.  During moving my garage, in addition to numerous carloads of stuff, I hired a guy with a truck to make 9 trips for me - 8 with a car in tow on a rented trailer in addition to a truckload of parts, and the ninth just to get some larger items that I couldn't fit in my car (didn't really want to tie anything on to the top of the red car, which is the only one I have registered currently).  In addition I've had to pay to have certain larger items like an antique refrigerator and piano delivered to my house, and through the winter I was paying to have firewood delivered which with a truck and/or trailer I could have gone and picked up myself to save money.

I am pretty sure that owning a truck, as well as a trailer that can transport a car, would be a very wise investment for me over the long-term.  I'm still halfway tempted to turn the rear-end damaged 450SE into a pickup.   I'd really like a large 8-foot bed and stronger suspension though.

[Squiggle Dog]

It seems to me some people in the old car hobby want an old car - preferably as new an old car as humanly possible.  I on the other hand want THE car.  Does this make sense?  I'm afraid I'm still childish enough to accept a car with a few warts and age spots (or more than a few) as long as it is the car from the brochure... or has a reclining seat, or is Plum Crazy purple, or whatever it is that turns me ON.

This is the way I think. I'd rather have a car with the exact color and options that I want with flaws, than a perfect condition car that doesn't have the color or options I want. If the options you want are extremely rare, it really narrows it down. But, if you are able to get exactly the car you want and have it be in great condition at a good price, then that would be amazing.