Hi fellows
Mister bad luck calling on the troops.
I have patched up the diaphragm in the MPS of my 1973 350SE D-jet fuel injection. I am unwilling to spend 100â,¬ (asking price) on an old sensor while 190â,¬ will buy me version 2.2 of the Megasquirt fuel injection system. The best I can do on a new MPS is 600â,¬ - which is a good price :o
Megasquirt requires some work and components but since I have a spare laptop computer, a workbench with a soldering iron, an oscilloscope and several electronic testers, it looks like to the road for me albeit with some patience.
In the spirit of not re-inventing the wheel, does anybody here have any experience on these systems ?
For instance, I am not sure that the TPS on the D-jet is ideal.
Also, there is a TDC sensor on these cars but it seems to point to a pin at 20deg BTDC ???? what's the idea here ?
Any comments, pointers, URL references on actual conversions appreciated.
Denis
Paris, France
W116 running but in a sad state.
Denis,
I refuse to call you Mr. Bad luck!
I myself am not familiar with Megasquirt. But I came across the term, and found the thread for you:
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=151465&highlight=Megasquirt
It sounds like there are people who love it, and people who hate it. If you are thinking of using the system, it's a good idea to know in advance what you are getting into.
On the link I gave you above, I saw a link for a thread re: Megasquirt conversion:
http://sl107.com/groupee/forums/a/tp...1/m/5921043113
Here are a couple of other threads, in order of relevance:
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=136871&highlight=Megasquirt
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=68241&highlight=Megasquirt
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=129085&highlight=Megasquirt
I'm a know-nothing, but I can at least try to point you to a "know-something" source.
Mike
Top marks for a "know-nothing" ;D
You have pretty well found out what I needed to know.
With the correct skills, this is a cheap and effective alternative to D-jet.
From the schematics, it is entirely possible to house the Megasquirt in an old D-jet ECU casing and use the existing car wiring. The only difference on the casing would be a DB-9 connector to the serial port of my antique Compaq laptop.
The D-jet TPS must also be replaced with something out of some BMW, for instance. It will all work but ideally, a lambda sensor would help.
I am thinking of creating an adaptor between the left exhaust manifold and the downpipe that would hold a lambda sensor for setting up. It would then be removed. Why ? French law says that you cannot modify engines ! that is also why a stealthy Megasquirt is a good idea.
Just hoping that my vacuum pot million Euro MPS thingy fix will hold up for a while ::)
Thanks michaeld !
Denis
Paris, France
Monsieur Denis,
It is a pleasure to be of service. It's always a particuarly good feeling to find out that you've "come through" for someone!
That last post of the few I sent, re: creating your own injection parts, seemed interresting, if not relevant.
This Megasquirt sounds promising to anyone who has given up on their injection system, as it seems to be adaptable to different users' needs. If you were to take pictures and write up a description of the install sequence, I have a feeling that it would be one of those "pilgrimage to the top of the mountain seeking wisdom from the old wise man" type posts.
It would also be interesting to read a post detailing the process of your "search" for what was wrong with your 350SE.
You've got to shake your head at how government bureaucracies increasingly take over their people's lives. Fortunately, it seems that socialist bureaucrats are fairly lazy, as bureaucrats go, and would probably never inspect beyond the cursory look. It's them totalitarian fascists bureaucrats that you don't want to mess with; they would give your car the third degree!
Mike
Hi michaeld and friends
I will definitely do a complete write-up on Megasquirt conversion on an M116/M117 with D-jet. I cannot see the need for K-jet except that a modern system does produce improvements - I expect 10% better power/fuel consumption.
Right now, the bureaucrats of France are not socialist but right wing people ::)
The problem is that they are "Napoleonic republicans" that think that the state should have its nose everywhere (as the socialists do) but the real problem is that these "capitalist" types have done a very poor job at running our economy for 4 long years. The kind of healthy US type traditional capitalism (Adam Smith) does not exist here ! of course I wonder if it still does in America...
Believe or not, voting socialist might actually get business rolling again. I realize how incredible it may sound to anglo-saxons but France is a very peculiar country.
In any case, the legal problem is that if you get into an accident where you are responsible, inspectors can actually declare the car illegally modified and the insurance does not pay !!! Of course they will not disassemble engines of ECUs to see this, just be watching for bizarre thingies 8) and it helps to have a normal looking car such as a plain big ole S-class saloon.
My car problems seem related to multiple causes - the chain jump, the FPR and I did replace the coil.
Bye for now
Denis
Paris, France
Sunny and warm, nice to sip an expresso at a Paris café or stroll the jardin du Luxembourg
Denis,
What could possibly be more fun than an American and a Frenchman discussing political systems on a German car forum?
American "right wingers" are often falsely characterized as borderline (if not outright) Nazis; the reality is that American conservatives generally want limited federal government, lower taxes, fewer regulations, reduced free market interventionism, less autonomous rule by judicial fiat and more power in the hands of the people's representatives, and a powerful military to protect the nation and its national interests. I'm not sure what a French "right wing people" would look like, as what is "right" and what is "left" differ greatly from country to country.
I DO know that REAL capitalists would most certainly not be in favor of the kind of heavy handed market controls that you are describing regarding your car. In the United States, which I believe is the most conservative (and capitalististic) nation in the Western world, I can do dang well anything I please to my car, as long as it passes basic emission standards and doesn't present a clear and obvious threat to the public. I can put a completely different engine/transmission/driveline in it, or whatever I want.
American liberals frequently characterize conservatives as jackbooted Nazi storm troopers out to control the masses through political oppression and religious tyranny, but the reality is that we are seeing liberals doing things like: banning all public smoking, imposing numerous requirements that all businesses must follow whether they want to or not, seizing privately owned land in the name of environmental regulations and extremely liberal interpretations of eminent domain, mandating that all textbooks favorably portray the homosexual/transexual agneda whether various districts support such views or not, seeking to impose a staunchly secularist agenda on every level of society, that sort of thing. The reality is that atheism is as much of a religious view as theism, as one cannot talk about the same subject matter (i.e. 'there is a God' vs. 'there is no God'; or 'God created the universe' vs. 'God did not create the universe') and say that one view is religious and the other is not. To wit, American liberals are seeking to impose their own religious views every bit as much as are conservatives.
I would not presume to tell a Frenchman what political system is best for France, but I've got plenty of opinions about what's best for America! For the United States, I say (to parady a line from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, "Socialists? We don' need no stinkin' socialists." ;D
Mike
P.S. All my mentioning of "jackbooted Nazi storm troopers" reminds me; did anyone see that ebay auction for a 1941 E320 Cabrio limosine commissioned as a Luftwaffe general officer's staff car? Check it out at http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D4619451323%26fvi%3D1&item=4619451323
and read more about it on http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=152699
It's pretty interesting history.
P,P.S. I'm not supporting the notion that President Bush should purchase it to use as his presidential limo or anything like that!
Thanks for that link michaeld. Who knows what it's worth but one would think it belongs in a museum considering its history.
Denis
Quote from: Denis on 11 May 2006, 07:51 AM
the insurance does not pay !!! Of course they will not disassemble engines of ECUs to see this, just be watching for bizarre thingies 8) and it helps to have a normal looking car such as a plain big ole S-class saloon.
So long as you don't paint flames down the side of the 350 you should be safe. Oh, and a bit more positive thinking about not getting into an accident please. ;D
Hi oscar
Do you mean to tell me that I should stop driving at 180 kph on twisty two lane highways ? And that I cant dart in front a a Renault Twingo and scare its driver into a heart attack ? or slow down because all the dead wild boar hair messes up the front bumper ????
This is going to be a boring life now ::)
Styria, thanks ! I will get back to you once I receive it.
Denis
Paris, France
Hi styria and all
When you drive in France, you might see warnings about wild boars, deers, cattle, goats and sheep.
There are no frog crossings ::)
Believe it or not, wild boar is an ancient french delicacy, like the frog legs...aussie fauna is of course unique so even our stupid president cant have such signs posted...unless he runs fo office again >:(
Here is a true story from an indian reservation in Canada - this indian had an old US car which he drove right off the road, into the woods and eventually against a tree - he had been trying to hit a moose with his car. Stupide native ? no, a brilliant economist as he said trying to explain his gesture - car 200 dollars, moose 1000 dollars !!!
Denis
Paris, France
I have a couple of used MPS and Computers. If your car is running super rich, I had a similar problem on my d-jet 280SEL 4.5. The problem was hard to diagnose because the FI system would flood the engine and cause it to have gas in the oil. Then it would run crap no matter what you would do to adjust it.
The only way to get around this is to drain the oil and replace with new oil and plugs and then start testing again. Eventually we figured out that the computer that I had would run well most of the time and then for some reason, run super rich and flood the engine. Once we replaced the computer, the system ran beautifully.
I know grab every MPS and Computer that I find when I see them at the junk yard.
Hi alabbasi
Yes, I just changed the oil because of the dilution problem. Alas teh diaphragm is defective and solder/sealer barely got it back in order to start and run OK but still quite rich.
I also grabbed some MPS when I go to the bone yard but most are toast for the same reason as mine :(
The updated digital D-jet conversion is the only way to go without changing most of the parts. In fact, I am reusing all the temp sensors and wiring harness.
Denis
Paris, France
Hi Denis.
How are you doing on this ?
I thought about being an eBay compulsory D-Jet collector , but may be it is not a worth effort if this "affair" works.
Thanks.
Hola dudu !
I am waiting for delivery of the kit from Switzerland. I will keep full notes, pictures and schematics for this project.
I need/wish to keep the installation looking like the car has D-jet. In France, it is a legal issue, to others, it is an issue of "looking" like the car is unmodified.
Here are the main physical issues in the conversion. I am using a spare ECU enclosure and will build the Megasquirt into it, connecting its DB37 connector to the 25 pin D-jet socket. This saves buying the Megasquirt relay board - our cars already have all the relays we need !
The Megasquirt (MS) has a map sensor on its circuit board, one just runs a vacuum line from it to the engine. I will leave the infamous MPS connected but actually feeding nothing at the 25 pin connector. The Air and coolant sensors are directly usable as they have the required Negative temperature Coefficient (NTC° - i.e. the resistance goes down as the temperature goes up. The entire fuel pressure system (fuel pump, filter, fuel ring cold start injector, idles system and fuel pressure regulator) can be used without any changes. The injectors normally connect to a ground bolt on the engine; with MS, these injector leads must go to the MS 12 vdc power, so the normal connector for power to the injectors from the D-jet ECU becomes a ground connection with the MS...the D-jet throttle position sensor is useless as it does not have a usable resistive track, I plan on using a BMW unit modified to fit the D-jet throttle body. The trigger contacts in the D-jet distributor are unused, timing is collected from the ignition coil or a variable reluctance (VR) sensor (I want to see if the "unused" TDC sensor on our cars can feed the MS. So in fact, MS could be seen as a programmable, digital D-jet.
If all this sounds daunting, it is actually quite simple and I am going to do a step by step document.
The MS is assembled and then tested on the table with a board called the "stimulator" - I will skip buying/using this as I can make a board for myself and use my function generator as a simulation of the ignition pulses. With a properly assembled MS, the stimulator board is not necessary.
The MS then goes into the old ECU box, a cable is connected from a DB9 connector on the MS to a laptop computer's DB9 serial port. The MS needs a laptop computer (any laptop, preferably old and cheap :)) - I am using an old Pentium 90 MHz unit with Win95 - that is good enough and preferable as serial DB9 is not available on recent laptops. So then you get a nice graphic interface to do your tuning with.
Once physically installed, a fuel map is refined by trial and error but there are several software tools to do this. You get more control over the ful injection than you ever had before. In fact, I thought of temporarily adding an O2 sensor in a homemade adaptor under the left exhaust manifold to really tune the engine precisely with MS. While not necessary, this is the best way to track mixture at all speeds/loads. Once done, the O2 sensor can be removed to keep the car "normal" ...pour la France >:(
I see only advantages to using MS - more power, less pollution and muy importante - lower fuel consumption ! driving my 350SE for a vacation in Labourd/Guipuzcoa using 11.5l/100 at 110kph really looks good to me ;D itis even possible to add firmware to the MS to control the coil directly ! thsi means mapping the advance curve without vacuum/physical advance - both mechanical systems are physically locked and you just define an ignition map - but that is more advanced than iI want to deal with at this time :P
I expect the whole thing to cost me about 375â,¬ at most excluding the old laptop ( they can be had for 15â,¬ on Ebay)
If all gioes well, the first physical tests are due in July.
Denis
Paris, France
Denis,
how is the progress with the French Megasquirt installation?
Hi
Board construction is planned for July 9th. Circuit engineering on the 11th and fitment on the 15th (was to be 14th but, hey, I'm french ;D) - a drop of champagne please ?
I am taking two weeks off starting the 8th, one of which is for "cars" and the other for "serious rest" - yes, a french idea as we lucky folks have 5 legal weeks of holiday each year ;D what is the use of making money if you can't spend it on holidays ::)
When I say "cars", I mean the 350SE W116 and the newfound 280SE W126 present to me. I like to compare these two cars and frankly, the W116 gets the nod for style. The W126 is slick and modern - yuck >:( but has a myriad of improvements on the W116.
The first version of Megasquirt will not be set up for an oxygen sensor even though I purchased one.
I really want to see power, fuel consumption and emissions improvement with this technology.
Keep tuned for results but I admit to being quite busy and not posting much these days...
Regards
Denis
Paris, France
Hi s class and all
Just reporting for those interested. It's all more work than expected and I am a QA nut so taking my time is NOT an issue - get it right is the goal.
I built the Megasquirt ECU but am now building the "test bench" - there is no point in fitting something to a car that does not work correctly on a simulator.
The Megasquirt people offer a "stimulator" (engine simulator) that plugs into the Megasquirt with a DB-37 (computer) connector.
I have gone one further "D-jet conversion" step ahead and built my own "stimulator with a connector to the 25 pin Bosch D-jet ECU. This allows reuse of this connector and casing into which the Megasquirt will be housed - stealth it is going to be ;D
When all is done, I will be able to offer a complete step-by-step approach to converting the early 280/380/450 cars to modern laptop computer programmable DFI.
Au revoir
Denis
Paris, France
Hi Denis....step by step guide sounds great, 11.5/100km sounds even better! and 30% more power apparently! I await your results with baited breath. Thanks for replying to my post " jetronic " I suspected I had the d-jet. would I be wrong to assume that its an "simpler" conversion to modern efi than k-jet?
best of luck.... :o
Hi
Having a car with D-jet and wishing to go to MS is better than having K-jet. You already have the correct type of injectors and the wiring harness going to the D-jet ECU is directly reusable. The D-jet MPS and the distributor trigger contacts (expensive parts that fail) must be disabled or removed ;D
In addition, some extra wiring is needed but nothing very complicated.
More to come as I get the results. I am currently hacking at making a good physical installation in a D-jet ECU casing.
I am always skeptical about power increases but the ability to seriously map fuel delivery to precise engine conditions, along with the ability to adjust ignition timing with the MS should result in some noticeable power increase. While I will not be doing it (a blatant illegal modification in France), the idea of a bigger throttle body then makes sense to me.
30% in my case would mean a 260HP (DIN) engine and a 350SE that could outacelerate a 6.9 - I do not think this to be plausible ::)
Did you fellows know that the D-jet injectors on an M116/117 are good for 400 hp :o they are BIG...
Denis
Paris, France
Wow... all of this sounds promising.
I am now fighting with my D components trying to figure out what in the hell happens with it. May be vacuum leaks due to some microscopic pore, trigger contacts.. or.. may be... that, sometimes, i own two "left hands" ( if translates ).
Waiting for some news from your really interesting post.
Regards.
Any new word on this? I would love to hear a sucess story on this as I thought about it when I was rebuilding my 280SEL 4.5
No problem, just thought I would ask as it certainly was an interesting one.