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Mercedes 450SEL 6.9 engine ticking/noise

Started by harrycarry250, 08 December 2017, 10:54 AM

Randys01

Re Go No Go Gauge. I had written a useful reply Daniel but the whole thing disappeared. ?
Anyway, oddly enuff I am regurgitating this matter and will have some more info to add to the pile in due course.

robertd

116   1978 450SEL 6.9 #  4848
116   1979 450SEL  6.9 # 5884
116   1979 450SEL  6.9 # 6225  SOLD
116   1978 450SEL  6.9 # 5128  SOLD
116   1979 450SEL  6.9 # 5884  SOLD
116   1974 450SEL  DJet

TJ 450

Ah yes very true, they can make a noise like that if failed of the wrong fluid is used,

Tim
1976 450SEL 6.9 1432
1969 300SEL 6.3 1394
2003 ML500

harrycarry250

Thank you for the replies everyone,

I have long since considered the oil galleries to be the issue in this engine. Since having all of the lifters replaced with no effect on noise I had assumed the lifters were simply not receiving adequate pressure.

I believe it is time for me to tackle this project on my own, in the coming months I will refer back to this when I have an opportunity to address the issue personally. Most likely in late January.

It is important I gather as much information on this procedure as possible; does cleaning out the oil galleries simply involved a burst of compressed air or a more physical approach? I want to avoid particulate matter in the system.

Thanks
1976 240D 4 SPD
1978 450sel 6.9 Euro
1979 450sel 6.9 Euro
1981 300D
1984 300TD
1986 500SEC Euro
1993 500E
2004 S55

Randys01

There is no procedure per sec. What I have articulated is what I have developed.  :o

Before embarking on this marathon, what confidence do you have that  when the guides/valves lifters etc were all reassembled that the clearances were reset? Even if you are convinced 110 per cent that this was done faithfully, or whether you have doubts let's double check the clearances.

As discussed, you will need a Go no go gauge and be familiar with  how the little mongrel works.

Don't be too concerned about the concurrent debate about which brand gauge..which preload value bla bla. Bite the bullet and buy a new one from the Classic Centre. It will be the later type and the shim setting will need to align with this tool. I'm willing to bet they will be all over the place.

If the clearance are all within range, then we have bigger issues . going forward from this point has been touched upon in my earlier post...let's cross that bridge if and when.

How about you firstly share with us what your test readings determined when you get around to it.? ;)



rumb

I agree.  since the lifter setting can not be done until after the engine has run and pumped them up , I dont know how you could check them until later.  Since the adjuster shims are so expensive I opted to have stainless circles  stamped out that I then installed under the adjuster pieces. You also would not know what size adjusters to purchase until after you have measured all of them.  If your rebuilder did not charge you for these little pieces then that is pretty likely they have not ever been checked or set correctly.
'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

daantjie

Quote from: Randys01 on 13 December 2017, 01:45 AM
There is no procedure per sec. What I have articulated is what I have developed.  :o

Before embarking on this marathon, what confidence do you have that  when the guides/valves lifters etc were all reassembled that the clearances were reset? Even if you are convinced 110 per cent that this was done faithfully, or whether you have doubts let's double check the clearances.

As discussed, you will need a Go no go gauge and be familiar with  how the little mongrel works.

Don't be too concerned about the concurrent debate about which brand gauge..which preload value bla bla. Bite the bullet and buy a new one from the Classic Centre. It will be the later type and the shim setting will need to align with this tool. I'm willing to bet they will be all over the place.

If the clearance are all within range, then we have bigger issues . going forward from this point has been touched upon in my earlier post...let's cross that bridge if and when.

How about you firstly share with us what your test readings determined when you get around to it.? ;)

Randy, so you suggest the 117 gauge is "the gospel" for this job?
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

UTn_boy

Guys, take note of what RUMB said.  The oiling system absolutely has to be pressurized either with oil or air before measurements can be taken with the go-no-go gauge.  If this isn't done, then the hydraulic elements will have play in them which will give an erroneous reading.  If the engine had been run recently, one can also crank the engine until oil pressure comes up, but this must be repeated with every check since the hydraulic elements bleed down very quickly.  Especially old ones with a lot of miles on them. 

RANDYS, if I recall correctly, I believe that HARRYCARRY did not have the guides renewed. 
1966 250se coupe`,black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3,papyrus white/dark red leather
1975 450se, pine green metallic/green leather
1973 300sel 4.5,silver blue metallic/blue leather
1979 450sel 516 red/bamboo

daantjie

Quote from: UTn_boy on 13 December 2017, 04:05 PM
Guys, take note of what RUMB said.  The oiling system absolutely has to be pressurized either with oil or air before measurements can be taken with the go-no-go gauge.  If this isn't done, then the hydraulic elements will have play in them which will give an erroneous reading.  If the engine had been run recently, one can also crank the engine until oil pressure comes up, but this must be repeated with every check since the hydraulic elements bleed down very quickly.  Especially old ones with a lot of miles on them. 

RANDYS, if I recall correctly, I believe that HARRYCARRY did not have the guides renewed.

Guys, maybe I'm being dumb but why does the lifter need to be primed if there is a very strong spring in the lifter?  Surely the spring keeps the tension and by extension the clearance without the help of oil???
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

Randys01

Sorry.. I misread the original post as including the  [valve] guides : not the timing chain guides.

Well that reopens the door for worn valve guides as contributing to the clatter. We won't sweat that one until we have 1stly eliminated the lifters/clearances issue. You can still get an "in range" reading even with clapped guides.

So if the project work to date only extended to replacing the lifters, one would still expect the galleries to have been cleaned..the new lifters fitted..the clearances checked and adjusted where necessary.

I am aware of a common  [mal] practice of people doing top overhauls and banging it all back together assuming the valve lifter clearance will "sort itself out" .new lifters /old lifters...valves ground/not ground/guides replaced/not replaced. .she'll be right mate. I would bet London to a brick this is the scenario prevailing here.

Anyway, so back to rechecking the clearances............
I have given this a great deal of thought and there are 2 ways ahead. The waters are muddied because we will likely end up using a new style gauge on a set of probable old value lifters. If we knew those lifters were definitely set to old value range and were within old range, you can make a visual compensation but we don't know what we have here.  Somebody who really knows the ropes on site could sort it out this way, but it is far too hard to explain here.

So the easiest way ahead for you is to source an older Go no Gauge.  ie a Sir Tools at least as manufactured up until 2010 were cut to the old standard. If you can get your paws on one of these, your particular  task is much easier. That is, you are going to measure the clearances using the older tool on what is 99 per cent likely old original valve settings. Yes, it's an assumption...you'll know soon enuff if it's wrong.

The drill is: run the engine for a minute or so
- do not get it hot
RH Cam box off
- only need to do one to get the picture. [the clatter is coming from both banks ]
Rags deployed
plugs out
fuel pump relay out
coil disconnected
crank engine until oil comes out the pipe feeder to the rockers.
bring No 1 to tdc by slowly turning engine by hand using a 22mm spanner on the alt drive nut and pinching the belt to get grip OR pwr stg pump bolt

Mount the GnGG
-take a reading
if it is sort of near in- range then we are in the money.

Continue to measure the remaining 7 on the rh bank. crank the motor occasionally
If a few are  close-ish and a few are well out, then you know they were set as per original and now it's a matter of adjusting the rogues.
If they are all miles out...in particular the Gauge measuring pin is constantly low.... then it's likely somewhere along the lines, the lifters were adjusted to the new values. Highly unlikely.
Record your observations.
So I'm reckoning  you will have 8 readings of varying compliance.

Now when it comes time to adjust the bad boys, here's the battle plan.

You are going to need some goodies.
a fully charged car battery
a selection of shims
you will need the special rocker arm removal tool 
micrometer or digital vernier caliper

Concentrate on the valves that are way out.
use the spring compressor and remove the rocker
retrieve the shim and measure/record its value.
insert the replacement shim/thicker/thinner as the case may be.
replace the rocker
crank the engine
use the GnGG to determine where it sits and whether the lifter is now in range, over crush or not enuff.
Select the next shim to finesse the adjustment if it's still a fair way out. For this exercise, very close enuff will do...it doesn't have to be picture perfect.

If a replacement shim makes no measurable difference there is an oil supply problem to that lifter. Remove that lifter and double check supply.
Test the lifter for bleed down by slowly squeezing it in a vertical vice using a wood piece on the both ends to prevent damage. A gentle steady pressure of only a couple of pounds will see the lifter ball slowly collapse and oil ooze out. remove the lifter and observe that it pops back up. if satisfied, refit lifter and note it will have to be specifically repressurised which will require a fair bit of cranking before it will pass thru enuff cycles to pump up.


OK....so all 8 on the RHS bank have been measured and adjusted to be damn close to being in- range. Any recalcitrant lifters have identified and checked for supply bleed and return.

Crank the motor over by hand carefully observing that everything is reseated.

All good?..reassemble cam box and crank over on starter  several times. rest one minute crank again. Crank it until you see oil pressure on the gauge.
Then reconnect fuel/coil etc and start it.

What do you hear or not hear from the Rh bank.? A bit of a clickety click is OK....

If the clackety clack noise as depicted on the U tube is still there, it's stuffed guides.

I hope you have enjoyed the read....now to do it.!!

If anyone is still awake, do you now realise why nobody goes down this road?!! ::) ::)





Randys01

Daniel  and all interested viewers . The spring is not that strong but is a "belts and braces" approach to ensure the piston is forced up to ensure the oil flows into the chamber...almost drawn in by vacuum....that is to ensure the chamber is fullish with or without oil pressure.
If there was  no spring it wouldn't work ;equally if there was no oil! The auxillary role of the spring is totally overlooked. the spring is only there to help.
It is the hydraulic lock that makes the contraption work but the speed of achieving that lock- up from rest is enhanced by our little spring.

It is my theory that in- field service after several years of experience....coupled with  patterns of poor servicing..there was too much  lifter rattle on cold start. The crush was increased  was to give faster recovery at start up when certain valve lifters bleed down due to their position when the engine stopped. Increasing the tension on the spring was a fast fix to replacing a million lifters with a stronger spring.

Randys01

Let's revisit Daniel's question about the variations in the Go No Go gauge.

It's a pity the M100 site is dead at this point in time because there is good info on this topic on there but to be honest I cannot recall where it ended up. Meanwhile, I have done some separate research and it seems shortly after debut, the dreaded dial indicator procedure was replaced with  advent of the GNGG for the M100 engine. The p/no  was 100 589 042300.
Probably about the same time, a dedicated GNGG was introduced for the M116/117 engines. At this point I/we do not have a part no...but some one will know. Then in Dec 82  the series 2 GNGG for the M116/117 was released. This is 117 589062300.

So someone in the group who has access to the DB EPC should be able to key in the M100 part no and come up with what replaced it.....if anything. Similarly keying in 117589062300 should throw up the part it replaced in 1982. This would go a long way to resolving the riddle.

Now to muddy the water is the Sir Tools gizmo.  Was this originally cut to series 1 spec and has it been upgraded to reflect the 82 revision.? or does it just plod on as a replica of the series 1 [for which we don't have a part no] How the devil would you know?

It's all getting a bit silly but the way ahead for M116/117 owners is to make sure they buy a genuine MB tool with the p/no ***62300 stamped on it.

The outlook for M100 owners is not so clear is it?
One can get into  real technical debate about why the M100 variant could be different from the 1st and 2nd versions of the M116/117 but after considerable thought, I don't see that it had to be. Notwithstanding the rockers  and other aspects of the oh cam gear differ, the fact remains both M100 and M116/117 originally have the same lifter set to the same value.
Here I think is the key.

All we are interested in is the repose value of the lifter.ie not under any tension. So I am comfortable with the notion that either variant of the M116/117 GNGG will do the job. You just need to know which one you have and whether you want to set the lifters to the original values or to the revised values.

Altho  the Tech Bulletin of Dec 82 is ominously silent as to whether the new values apply to the M100 I am confident to apply the revised spec to an M100 because of the rationale outlined in an earlier blurb. ie the increased crush is to ensure greater responsiveness in the lifter pump up.

Now if you are still worried, there is one sure fire way to play to safety.!..to be sure to be sure.......
Yep. abandon the GNGG and all its maybes/could be this model/is this compatible/what version is this???  and use a dial indicator.

The only facts we do have which are bankable is the  DB technical documentation  to hand which states the spec :  viz .7 to 1.9. The only way to measure that without the vagaries of the GNGG is the good old dial indicator. Well no one wants to go there and unless someone is right at the crossroads of a serious rebuild,  we just tread water and work our way thru it as a bit more info comes to light.

A bit of interrogation  of the EPC  [paras 2 and 3 ] could help clear this riddle up.......

Finally, what I'm talking about here is a technical and academic debate: it does not conflict with the in- field process I described earlier for Harry Carry which will be close enuff for his problem.

Let's see what turns up?


UTn_boy

Randy, Daantje, what spring are you making mention of?  The hydraulic elements don't have springs in them, and the rocker arms don't have springs holding them on, so I'm rather confused as to what you fellas are referencing. 
1966 250se coupe`,black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3,papyrus white/dark red leather
1975 450se, pine green metallic/green leather
1973 300sel 4.5,silver blue metallic/blue leather
1979 450sel 516 red/bamboo

daantjie

Quote from: UTn_boy on 14 December 2017, 12:51 PM
Randy, Daantje, what spring are you making mention of?  The hydraulic elements don't have springs in them, and the rocker arms don't have springs holding them on, so I'm rather confused as to what you fellas are referencing.

Aaron see in the schematic below, a bit small, but you can see the small spring inside the ball/check valve, and then the large spring at the bottom:


Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

TJ 450

My thoughts on this are that the spring provides just enough pressure to provide a rough reading, but for a more precise reading they need to be primed.

Having said this, I set up two M117s using the spring only and the results were a quiet running engine.

Tim
1976 450SEL 6.9 1432
1969 300SEL 6.3 1394
2003 ML500