Hello all,
I am looking to get some third-party opinions on the source of this engine noise I have been trying to get to the bottom of.
I got the cars timing chain and guides done as well as all hydraulic lifters replaced, long story on the lifters.
Beyond that I cannot figure out what this noise is and neither can my mechanic, I fear future inspection and diagnosis requires opening the engine.
I'll include a link to a YouTube video of my car running. Note; this was taken after 30 minutes of driving home from the shop, highway and local driving. Upon cold start-up the sound can be silent or subdued. There is also a loud exhaust leak you'll here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFkaaZfeUj4
Thanks
Sounds like a lifter tick to me. As a rule of thumb, a tick @ 1/2 engine speed is from the top end, and a noise equal to crank speed is from the bottom. So, depending on what your idle is set at (sounds to be idling high maybe with vacuum leak too?), you might be able to nail it down to either bank, or both. So if you are running @ 600 rpm idle, then a tick @ 5x/second would be top end noise. 10x/second from the bottom. Bottom end problems are exceedingly rare on the 6.9. Usually it's the valve train. Guides wearing out are a well known failure point in these and other Benz motors from the same era.
Thanks for that insight. I have never considered mathematics in my evaluation of the sound.
Considering that the guide rails and timing chain are new along with a newish tensioner (save for the very bottom guide) and all of the hydraulic tappets are new what would be the next item to check?
Thanks.
When the lifters (hydraulic compensators) were changed, was the preload also checked? Regardless you would have to pull the valve covers and have a gander. Feel for loose rocker arms and scoring on the cam lobes. You will need a "go no-go" gauge to check the preload on each lifter. Laborious work but you need to have a systematic approach to this kind of troubleshooting. Also, you need to ensure that each lifter and rocker arm combo needs to go back into the same position as it was.
A few things: What Daantje said is of great importance. So bear his words in mind, too.
They hydraulic elements, even though new, won't do their job if the oil galleys that supply them with oil are clogged. This happens often, and usually caused by previous owners having used inexpensive oils.
When you renewed your hydraulic elements, did you check valve lash clearances and correct any with the proper thickness shims? There is a special tool used to do this. It sits on top of the rocker arms where they sit on top of the hydraulic elements. It's more or less a go-no-go type of gauge. The problem is that in order to use this tool the oil pressure must be at operation pressures in order to take out the slack in the hydraulic elements. Otherwise you'll get erroneous readings. I believe air can also be used to pressurize the system, too.
The next areas of concern are the camshafts and rocker arms themselves. Are they worn? The rocker arms are notorious about wearing. Wear will be obvious to a trained eye, and excessive wear will be obvious to anyone. Hopefully you took note of their condition while they were out to renew the hydraulic elements. Also, were the rocker arms out back in their respective locations?
And last, the valve stem guides are notorious for wearing. When they wear, the valves will make rattling noises when warm, but not when cold. Unfortunately, this repair involves removing the cylinder heads, but as old as these cars are getting a valve job is a necessity. I believe someone somewhere on this forum or the M-100 forum wrote up a beautiful post on this particular subject matter. He was having the same noise that you are. After renewing the guides and having the valves re-seated the noises went away. Even my 6.9's make this noise, and I know they need a valve job. I keep putting it off because of how costly it's going to be. :/
That noise does sound very much like a lifter noise, worn valve guides will make more of a ticking/clacking sound when the engine warms up. This sounds exactly like when the hydraulic lifters are not pressurised. I don't think you will need to pull the heads to fix this, but you will need the go-no-go gauge and check to make sure the lifters are not bleeding off and that there is good oil pressure too.
Tim
Also, another point to make is that when installing the lifters, mark the spot where the oil supply bore is located, so when tightening you can make sure it is aligned. Apparently if you just torque them to spec, this may not be the case.
Tim
Quote from: TJ 450 on 09 December 2017, 09:36 AM
Also, another point to make is that when installing the lifters, mark the spot where the oil supply bore is located, so when tightening you can make sure it is aligned. Apparently if you just torque them to spec, this may not be the case.
Tim
Hey Tim.
This is not mentioned in the service manual to my knowledge? When I replaced my compensators I also wondered about this, but the design to my eye was such that the annular will get oil from the feed no matter what orientation you end up with after the 60nm torque?
my pet subject.!
Fact 1.
I confirm that it does not matter where the lifters end up threaded in the head, the design is such that oil will flow around the annular and into the lifter.
Fact 2.
The lifters maybe new but as has already been highlighted, if the oil gallery and drillings are blocked, the party is over.
Fact 3
If the oil supply to the overhead oil drip pipe is compromised, another nasty awaits us.
Observation
This engine is making enuff noise to suggest the top end oil feed to lifters and rockers is not right. One cannot eliminate a couple of bad guides but there is too much going on to be definitive. The more obvious sources of noise need to be dismissed first.
Before you run it another minute you need to establish: is the sump full?
Is the top of the motor getting plenty of oil from the dripper line?
- plugs out..fuel pump relay disconnected..coil disconnected remove a cam box and crank the engine
:observe oil is squirting out of the overhead pipe onto each rocker
:yes, even at cranking speed this should be observable
; standby by for a mess.
+ are all the cam lobes smooth?
If this is all OK, you will need to test the static clearance on the "valve compensating elements" [lifters ]?
Originally this was done by dial indicator and was a real pig but the advent of the so called "go no go gauge" makes it simpler.
I'm assuming someone on your team has sufficient knowledge of this device and how to use it but it will tell you which lifters are not within range. If you have a couple then it is highly likely the oil gallery is partially blocked. Now the job turns messy. All rockers off, all lifters out, all lifters purged and all oil galleries purged. All lifters back in- all rockers back on- and all lifters measured after pressuring the oil gallery. Adjust all lifters to spec.
Put her all back together and start her up. It should purr. I've done a couple of these now BUT it is an exercise in each step must be squared away to 101% satisfaction before going to the next.
This is a day's work to do both banks. BUT you will get an idea of what's going on if you work on one bank first.
btw.......routine mtce required these lifters to be checked every 45000kms using the dial indicator method. I bet none of them were ever done especially when they moved to 2nd and 3rd owners who could barely fill the gas tank let alone a 4hr job at dealer hourly rates! A compounding factor along with infrequent oil changes that gave rise to valve guides not going the distance accompanied by rocker pad failure and ultimately scored cam lobes.
Good luck.
Yup what Randy said is the gospel ;D
Yep,
About the lifter oil bore, this was just what the guys at the machine shop told me when I had the heads rebuilt, I must admit I suspected it was a non issue as there's plenty of room around there for the oil to flow when looking at the design.
Tim
Response.
The oil gallery itself is not a bad diameter but the diagonal drilling in the threaded bore is getting damn small and it then has to fill the annular to progress into the equally mingy port in the lifter. Remember, the top of the motor gets last call on the oil flow. When the motors were new and had heaps of oil pressure and everything was young and beautiful, this all flowed like ambrosia. But there is a quirk in the design which I reckon should have been modified to meet the inevitable.** It is simply this. The oil galleries come to a dead end. They are not a partial loss system, accordingly the nasty sludge builds up at the end of the gallery and slowly works its ugly magic backwards.
If u ever have the chance to look at one of these in situ with all the lifters removed you will see exactly what's going on....a long thin black taper of muck. Sooner or later it inhibits flow to the lifter or more likely, gets into the lifter where the bleed ports are of nano proportions.
Here's when some of the trouble emerges. A lifter which cannot bleed down or pump up is a lifter that will cause no end of noise and ultimately damage. It becomes inert or static and does not reset itself. so the next thing you know you have lash....clearance between the rocker pad and cam lobe. Once you get slapping in here rather than just following the contour in perfect contact, you start knocking the stupidly thin chrome skin off the rocker and then its steel on steel.......so then we get material transference and start scoring the cam lobe. The noise you hear is only the symptom...not the real complaint.
I am amazed how quickly dirty oil repopulates the oil galleries even with the most assiduous mtce protocols in place.
On one hand it is a design with little redundancy built in........I guess DB never envisaged how their masterpiece was going to be so neglected that it would all come to this.
** not that they were to foresee this, But I reckon a service bulletin should have surfaced that every time the valves were checked [ every 45K hahaha!}, the Cyls No1 and 5 lifters should have been removed and the gallery power flushed.
Finally...by the time friend Harry Carry executes this complex back to square one procedure, he will feel like Harekari!!
There are no shortcuts and near enuff will not cut the mustard....that's how we got here?!! :(
Cheers
Randy, I need to pick your brain on this question which has been bugging me, and other folks (mostly on the currently dead M100 site) have pondered this for a while. With regards the "go - no - go" gauge, there appears to be multiple iterations of this very crucial tool.
In the M100 manual, it specifically mentions a "100" prefix tool for this job, which of course is long since NLA. Now, the "only" tool still available from Benz is the one used for 116 and 117 motors - 117 589 06 23 00.
The plot further thickens, in that I have come across this verbiage on job # "05-213" - "Checking and adjusting should be carried out with the testing gauge 117 589 06 23 00 with revised measuring groove position". Furthermore - "Since December 1982, the hydraulic valve clearance compensating elements are adjusted with a revised preload dimension (basic position) previously 0.7-1.9mm, now 1.2-2.4mm). This is achieved by adding a thicker thrust piece to valve spring retainer".
And lastly - "The revised preload dimension is also valid for all previously manufactured engines 116 and 117, and must be taken into account when checking and adjusting basic position". Note, it does not mention the M100 here.
Now that we have all that out of the way ;D
It gets more muddled, in that there is a knock off tool widely available, the "Sir Tools" M0024, which states it's for "1976 and onwards V8's":
http://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/TOLM0024SIR.htm?pn=TOL-M0024-SIR
Now, this might be a little OCD, but to me we now have 3 different gauges which can be used, and they all might give you a different reading!?
I recall there was a post on the M100 site showing the clear difference between the M0024 and the "117" - prefix gauge from Benz, both in quality of the finish of course, and in the exact position of the measuring groove.
So, to me, the "only" way to determine which gauge we can use for the M100 would be to have an actual 100 - type gauge for comparison to these other 2 gauges?
Calling all cars, who has this elusive unicorn of a M100 gauge, gents..?
HI daantjie
I'll bet it is the "suspension" hydraulic pump running with air bubbles.
typical pump sound.
good luck
I have the 117 tool. I recall a bit of that m100 conversation, the SIR tool was out of spec.
I also have .7mm shims circles I had made if you want to buy some. (need to double check the thickness but I think that is correct)
The result I came to was to use the new clearance spec, thus use the 117 tool.
Re Go No Go Gauge. I had written a useful reply Daniel but the whole thing disappeared. ?
Anyway, oddly enuff I am regurgitating this matter and will have some more info to add to the pile in due course.
pretty certain it's the hydraulic pump
Ah yes very true, they can make a noise like that if failed of the wrong fluid is used,
Tim
Thank you for the replies everyone,
I have long since considered the oil galleries to be the issue in this engine. Since having all of the lifters replaced with no effect on noise I had assumed the lifters were simply not receiving adequate pressure.
I believe it is time for me to tackle this project on my own, in the coming months I will refer back to this when I have an opportunity to address the issue personally. Most likely in late January.
It is important I gather as much information on this procedure as possible; does cleaning out the oil galleries simply involved a burst of compressed air or a more physical approach? I want to avoid particulate matter in the system.
Thanks
There is no procedure per sec. What I have articulated is what I have developed. :o
Before embarking on this marathon, what confidence do you have that when the guides/valves lifters etc were all reassembled that the clearances were reset? Even if you are convinced 110 per cent that this was done faithfully, or whether you have doubts let's double check the clearances.
As discussed, you will need a Go no go gauge and be familiar with how the little mongrel works.
Don't be too concerned about the concurrent debate about which brand gauge..which preload value bla bla. Bite the bullet and buy a new one from the Classic Centre. It will be the later type and the shim setting will need to align with this tool. I'm willing to bet they will be all over the place.
If the clearance are all within range, then we have bigger issues . going forward from this point has been touched upon in my earlier post...let's cross that bridge if and when.
How about you firstly share with us what your test readings determined when you get around to it.? ;)
I agree. since the lifter setting can not be done until after the engine has run and pumped them up , I dont know how you could check them until later. Since the adjuster shims are so expensive I opted to have stainless circles stamped out that I then installed under the adjuster pieces. You also would not know what size adjusters to purchase until after you have measured all of them. If your rebuilder did not charge you for these little pieces then that is pretty likely they have not ever been checked or set correctly.
Quote from: Randys01 on 13 December 2017, 01:45 AM
There is no procedure per sec. What I have articulated is what I have developed. :o
Before embarking on this marathon, what confidence do you have that when the guides/valves lifters etc were all reassembled that the clearances were reset? Even if you are convinced 110 per cent that this was done faithfully, or whether you have doubts let's double check the clearances.
As discussed, you will need a Go no go gauge and be familiar with how the little mongrel works.
Don't be too concerned about the concurrent debate about which brand gauge..which preload value bla bla. Bite the bullet and buy a new one from the Classic Centre. It will be the later type and the shim setting will need to align with this tool. I'm willing to bet they will be all over the place.
If the clearance are all within range, then we have bigger issues . going forward from this point has been touched upon in my earlier post...let's cross that bridge if and when.
How about you firstly share with us what your test readings determined when you get around to it.? ;)
Randy, so you suggest the 117 gauge is "the gospel" for this job?
Guys, take note of what RUMB said. The oiling system absolutely has to be pressurized either with oil or air before measurements can be taken with the go-no-go gauge. If this isn't done, then the hydraulic elements will have play in them which will give an erroneous reading. If the engine had been run recently, one can also crank the engine until oil pressure comes up, but this must be repeated with every check since the hydraulic elements bleed down very quickly. Especially old ones with a lot of miles on them.
RANDYS, if I recall correctly, I believe that HARRYCARRY did not have the guides renewed.
Quote from: UTn_boy on 13 December 2017, 04:05 PM
Guys, take note of what RUMB said. The oiling system absolutely has to be pressurized either with oil or air before measurements can be taken with the go-no-go gauge. If this isn't done, then the hydraulic elements will have play in them which will give an erroneous reading. If the engine had been run recently, one can also crank the engine until oil pressure comes up, but this must be repeated with every check since the hydraulic elements bleed down very quickly. Especially old ones with a lot of miles on them.
RANDYS, if I recall correctly, I believe that HARRYCARRY did not have the guides renewed.
Guys, maybe I'm being dumb but why does the lifter need to be primed if there is a very strong spring in the lifter? Surely the spring keeps the tension and by extension the clearance without the help of oil???
Sorry.. I misread the original post as including the [valve] guides : not the timing chain guides.
Well that reopens the door for worn valve guides as contributing to the clatter. We won't sweat that one until we have 1stly eliminated the lifters/clearances issue. You can still get an "in range" reading even with clapped guides.
So if the project work to date only extended to replacing the lifters, one would still expect the galleries to have been cleaned..the new lifters fitted..the clearances checked and adjusted where necessary.
I am aware of a common [mal] practice of people doing top overhauls and banging it all back together assuming the valve lifter clearance will "sort itself out" .new lifters /old lifters...valves ground/not ground/guides replaced/not replaced. .she'll be right mate. I would bet London to a brick this is the scenario prevailing here.
Anyway, so back to rechecking the clearances............
I have given this a great deal of thought and there are 2 ways ahead. The waters are muddied because we will likely end up using a new style gauge on a set of probable old value lifters. If we knew those lifters were definitely set to old value range and were within old range, you can make a visual compensation but we don't know what we have here. Somebody who really knows the ropes on site could sort it out this way, but it is far too hard to explain here.
So the easiest way ahead for you is to source an older Go no Gauge. ie a Sir Tools at least as manufactured up until 2010 were cut to the old standard. If you can get your paws on one of these, your particular task is much easier. That is, you are going to measure the clearances using the older tool on what is 99 per cent likely old original valve settings. Yes, it's an assumption...you'll know soon enuff if it's wrong.
The drill is: run the engine for a minute or so
- do not get it hot
RH Cam box off
- only need to do one to get the picture. [the clatter is coming from both banks ]
Rags deployed
plugs out
fuel pump relay out
coil disconnected
crank engine until oil comes out the pipe feeder to the rockers.
bring No 1 to tdc by slowly turning engine by hand using a 22mm spanner on the alt drive nut and pinching the belt to get grip OR pwr stg pump bolt
Mount the GnGG
-take a reading
if it is sort of near in- range then we are in the money.
Continue to measure the remaining 7 on the rh bank. crank the motor occasionally
If a few are close-ish and a few are well out, then you know they were set as per original and now it's a matter of adjusting the rogues.
If they are all miles out...in particular the Gauge measuring pin is constantly low.... then it's likely somewhere along the lines, the lifters were adjusted to the new values. Highly unlikely.
Record your observations.
So I'm reckoning you will have 8 readings of varying compliance.
Now when it comes time to adjust the bad boys, here's the battle plan.
You are going to need some goodies.
a fully charged car battery
a selection of shims
you will need the special rocker arm removal tool
micrometer or digital vernier caliper
Concentrate on the valves that are way out.
use the spring compressor and remove the rocker
retrieve the shim and measure/record its value.
insert the replacement shim/thicker/thinner as the case may be.
replace the rocker
crank the engine
use the GnGG to determine where it sits and whether the lifter is now in range, over crush or not enuff.
Select the next shim to finesse the adjustment if it's still a fair way out. For this exercise, very close enuff will do...it doesn't have to be picture perfect.
If a replacement shim makes no measurable difference there is an oil supply problem to that lifter. Remove that lifter and double check supply.
Test the lifter for bleed down by slowly squeezing it in a vertical vice using a wood piece on the both ends to prevent damage. A gentle steady pressure of only a couple of pounds will see the lifter ball slowly collapse and oil ooze out. remove the lifter and observe that it pops back up. if satisfied, refit lifter and note it will have to be specifically repressurised which will require a fair bit of cranking before it will pass thru enuff cycles to pump up.
OK....so all 8 on the RHS bank have been measured and adjusted to be damn close to being in- range. Any recalcitrant lifters have identified and checked for supply bleed and return.
Crank the motor over by hand carefully observing that everything is reseated.
All good?..reassemble cam box and crank over on starter several times. rest one minute crank again. Crank it until you see oil pressure on the gauge.
Then reconnect fuel/coil etc and start it.
What do you hear or not hear from the Rh bank.? A bit of a clickety click is OK....
If the clackety clack noise as depicted on the U tube is still there, it's stuffed guides.
I hope you have enjoyed the read....now to do it.!!
If anyone is still awake, do you now realise why nobody goes down this road?!! ::) ::)
Daniel and all interested viewers . The spring is not that strong but is a "belts and braces" approach to ensure the piston is forced up to ensure the oil flows into the chamber...almost drawn in by vacuum....that is to ensure the chamber is fullish with or without oil pressure.
If there was no spring it wouldn't work ;equally if there was no oil! The auxillary role of the spring is totally overlooked. the spring is only there to help.
It is the hydraulic lock that makes the contraption work but the speed of achieving that lock- up from rest is enhanced by our little spring.
It is my theory that in- field service after several years of experience....coupled with patterns of poor servicing..there was too much lifter rattle on cold start. The crush was increased was to give faster recovery at start up when certain valve lifters bleed down due to their position when the engine stopped. Increasing the tension on the spring was a fast fix to replacing a million lifters with a stronger spring.
Let's revisit Daniel's question about the variations in the Go No Go gauge.
It's a pity the M100 site is dead at this point in time because there is good info on this topic on there but to be honest I cannot recall where it ended up. Meanwhile, I have done some separate research and it seems shortly after debut, the dreaded dial indicator procedure was replaced with advent of the GNGG for the M100 engine. The p/no was 100 589 042300.
Probably about the same time, a dedicated GNGG was introduced for the M116/117 engines. At this point I/we do not have a part no...but some one will know. Then in Dec 82 the series 2 GNGG for the M116/117 was released. This is 117 589062300.
So someone in the group who has access to the DB EPC should be able to key in the M100 part no and come up with what replaced it.....if anything. Similarly keying in 117589062300 should throw up the part it replaced in 1982. This would go a long way to resolving the riddle.
Now to muddy the water is the Sir Tools gizmo. Was this originally cut to series 1 spec and has it been upgraded to reflect the 82 revision.? or does it just plod on as a replica of the series 1 [for which we don't have a part no] How the devil would you know?
It's all getting a bit silly but the way ahead for M116/117 owners is to make sure they buy a genuine MB tool with the p/no ***62300 stamped on it.
The outlook for M100 owners is not so clear is it?
One can get into real technical debate about why the M100 variant could be different from the 1st and 2nd versions of the M116/117 but after considerable thought, I don't see that it had to be. Notwithstanding the rockers and other aspects of the oh cam gear differ, the fact remains both M100 and M116/117 originally have the same lifter set to the same value.
Here I think is the key.
All we are interested in is the repose value of the lifter.ie not under any tension. So I am comfortable with the notion that either variant of the M116/117 GNGG will do the job. You just need to know which one you have and whether you want to set the lifters to the original values or to the revised values.
Altho the Tech Bulletin of Dec 82 is ominously silent as to whether the new values apply to the M100 I am confident to apply the revised spec to an M100 because of the rationale outlined in an earlier blurb. ie the increased crush is to ensure greater responsiveness in the lifter pump up.
Now if you are still worried, there is one sure fire way to play to safety.!..to be sure to be sure.......
Yep. abandon the GNGG and all its maybes/could be this model/is this compatible/what version is this??? and use a dial indicator.
The only facts we do have which are bankable is the DB technical documentation to hand which states the spec : viz .7 to 1.9. The only way to measure that without the vagaries of the GNGG is the good old dial indicator. Well no one wants to go there and unless someone is right at the crossroads of a serious rebuild, we just tread water and work our way thru it as a bit more info comes to light.
A bit of interrogation of the EPC [paras 2 and 3 ] could help clear this riddle up.......
Finally, what I'm talking about here is a technical and academic debate: it does not conflict with the in- field process I described earlier for Harry Carry which will be close enuff for his problem.
Let's see what turns up?
Randy, Daantje, what spring are you making mention of? The hydraulic elements don't have springs in them, and the rocker arms don't have springs holding them on, so I'm rather confused as to what you fellas are referencing.
Quote from: UTn_boy on 14 December 2017, 12:51 PM
Randy, Daantje, what spring are you making mention of? The hydraulic elements don't have springs in them, and the rocker arms don't have springs holding them on, so I'm rather confused as to what you fellas are referencing.
Aaron see in the schematic below, a bit small, but you can see the small spring inside the ball/check valve, and then the large spring at the bottom:
My thoughts on this are that the spring provides just enough pressure to provide a rough reading, but for a more precise reading they need to be primed.
Having said this, I set up two M117s using the spring only and the results were a quiet running engine.
Tim
I dug up some old pics I took when I was chasing my lifter tick. These show the difference with a test value, and then also the difference measuring the preload in situ. The difference is pretty obvious:
So Daniel ....you have demonstrated the Sir Tools and the later MB variant. They sure give a different reading. This reinforces the likelihood that the Sir Tools version was scribed to the original spec... but whether they were upgraded in later production we will never know.
Your Sir Tools version reflects your lifters are set to orig spec.viz. .7 to 1.9. I would wager your shims are in the 4.4 to 5.1 range.
When you put the Series 2 MB ***2300 on the lifter, the read value is of course way out.
What is a fact tho is I have learnt that the 117 589 06 2300 is NLA from MB.
Thus, it seems if you want to buy a new one, you only have the Sir Tools variant and until proven otherwise, they were and are still machined to the old spec.
I have a Sir Tools version [ 5 years old ] and it is original spec .
I think we are coming very much to the end of the road on this topic.
Randy yes I would tend to agree.
But... ;D
I would still love to see/ have the 100 prefix tool to compare just for shits 8)
Quote from: daantjie on 14 December 2017, 04:40 PM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 14 December 2017, 12:51 PM
Randy, Daantje, what spring are you making mention of? The hydraulic elements don't have springs in them, and the rocker arms don't have springs holding them on, so I'm rather confused as to what you fellas are referencing.
Aaron see in the schematic below, a bit small, but you can see the small spring inside the ball/check valve, and then the large spring at the bottom:
I'm still in disbelief. I've taken these apart before to clean them, and none ever had springs in them.....both on the M-100 and M-116/M-117. Were the spring loaded ones an early/late revision or something? My M-100 repair book doesn't show these springs or make mention of them either, but they likely would not have since the hydraulic elements are not an item that can be serviced past replacing them.
Yes Daniel I agree: I'd luv to get my mawks on a real re M100 variant: but logic says it was scribed to the original spec..7 to 1.9.
The outlook is basically thus:
a sprinkling of orig M100 variants are collecting dust in some disused tool sheds/workshops maybe.
There would be early M116/7 variants [p/no still to surface] out there in reasonable nos. [I reckon this superseded the M100 p/no ]
The revised series 2 are probably common-ish.
The Sir Tools version is probably pretty common and largely in the hands of privateers like us.
So long as you know what you've got, set your clearances accordingly.
OK, got my M100 manual out. job 05-213
with newly installed compensating elements rotate engine with starter @30 seconds prior to checking
(pull fuel pump relay)
Aaron: re valve lifters. Sorry to burst ya bubble mate but my lifters were 78 vintage and they have the springs as indeed do current versions. I have a schematic from the orig 1975 Tech bulletin and it shows...yep..you guessed it...the spring!
When you say you have pulled them apart to clean.........do you mean you removed the little tin cap that seals them...withdrew the working innards and put it all back together and resealed the little tin cap successfully?
Quote from: Randys01 on 15 December 2017, 06:16 PM
Aaron: re valve lifters. Sorry to burst ya bubble mate but my lifters were 78 vintage and they have the springs as indeed do current versions. I have a schematic from the orig 1975 Tech bulletin and it shows...yep..you guessed it...the spring!
When you say you have pulled them apart to clean.........do you mean you removed the little tin cap that seals them...withdrew the working innards and put it all back together and resealed the little tin cap successfully?
Oh, my bubble isn't burst. haha And yes, when I say I cleaned them I mean that I successfully removed the tin caps, pulled out all of the inside parts, cleaned them, (they were all filthy and caked up with sludge) and snapped the tin caps back on afterward. Unfortunately, this didn't really help anything because the bores were worn to the point of allowing too much oil to escape when the engine was running. In all cases, whether with a n M-117 or an M-100, there were no springs inside of any of them. Just to be sure I was't dreaming, last night I went outside to a spare 6.9 engine i have to remove one of the hydraulic elements. And sure enough, no spring. At this point all I can do is assume that some were with, and some were without. Why and when? I have no earthly idea.
To spring or not to spring?........I can understand your disbelief.............now I'm as puzzled. ???
I am also intrigued as to your success in putting the lifter back together as I found the little tin cap to be a non cooperative little nark" and felt it could not be trusted to be put back in service. I am further amazed that your lifters were so worn they would not hold hydraulic lock. I found the top of my motor to be about as neglected as could be but the lifters still held pressure. I swapped them out for new as a matter of course.
Love some one else to weigh in on the spring/no spring story. ?
Hi
There is a other thing that may need to be taken into consideration here.
I have seen many lifters that were jammed due to tightening torque.
Specially used lifters that were removed for a rebuilt or valve job and then reinstalled.
Using the recommended 60 to 65 NM seems to distort the housing and jam the piston.
Often times the problem is solved by loosening the lifter and re tightening them to a lower torque.
Re torque. I seem to recall this came up once before....there are 2 quoted values in the Tech blurbs over the years. When I replaced all mine, I averaged the 2 values lol! :) There's only about 10Nm difference.
Quote from: Randys01 on 16 December 2017, 10:37 PM
To spring or not to spring?........I can understand your disbelief.............now I'm as puzzled. ???
I am also intrigued as to your success in putting the lifter back together as I found the little tin cap to be a non cooperative little nark" and felt it could not be trusted to be put back in service. I am further amazed that your lifters were so worn they would not hold hydraulic lock. I found the top of my motor to be about as neglected as could be but the lifters still held pressure. I swapped them out for new as a matter of course.
Love some one else to weigh in on the spring/no spring story. ?
Regarding the tip cap, they'll "snap off and back on with careful determination. That's not to say that all have come apart successfully, but the majority have. I knew they were worn simply because I made measurement comparisons with a new one. The bore was bigger than the new one, and the part that goes down into the bore had decreased in diameter compared to the new one. At first I thought that maybe the new one was of different dimensions because of an upgrade or something, but the measurements were too close to one another for that to be the case.
I'm now of the same mind as you are.....why did the ones I take apart not have springs in them, but the ones you tool apart have them? I just don't know. I'm as lost as you are.
Maybe someone had them apart previously and modified them. You can easily tell them if they have the spring or not by pressing them in (when oil is bled off), if they return to the fully extended position straight away. If there was no spring, they would just remain in the same position.
Tim
correct Tim...so I cannot see how they can work properly without the spring? ??? ???
When the oil pressure comes up the hydraulic elements stiffen up and stay raised from engine oil pressure. The spring wouldn't have anything to do with them falling down while the engine is running. I imagine the spring was to keep the hydraulic elements up after the engine is turned off to avoid ticking upon start up. Again, I've no idea why all of the 6.9 and 4.5 engines I have don't have springs in the hydraulic elements, and I have no doubts that what you fellas have seen/found is true. I certainly get tired of the inconsistencies, though.
Maybe we have veered off a bit from the initial post, ha-ha, but there is a question which has been bugging me with regards to how a worn out valve guide manifests in the audible ticking/clicking of the compensator/lifter? The noise is intermittent and cycles "on" and "off", so I can only assume that this is when the lifter pumps up, then loses pressure, and repeats this vicious cycle?
I can only postulate that the lateral movement of the valve stem inside the guide causes a disturbance in the movement of the rocker arm, which in turn transfers to the lifter and thus somehow by vibration (?) causes the on and off cycling in the lifter ????
before getting stuck into more serious stuff check the SUSPENSION HYDRAULIC PUMP
simply remove the 4 retaining bolts pull pump out from front casing then remove the small drive piece at the back with you fingers,
reinstall without the drive piece and try the engine again,
worth a try and may save you a lot of grief
I agree, If it was the pump, that would explain the cycling... you could even just check it with a screwdriver as a stethoscope. Definitely no harm in checking and at least crossing it off the list.
Tim
Let's recap on a few points. As I have reasoned earlier in all of this, the spring is there to ensure the lifter remains as near as full as is possible on start up. Other wise the clatter would be awful.
By the way..it is not the oil pressure holding the valve lifter "up"... that is a misconception! The oil supply is there to merely keep the reservoir full. It is the internal design of the ball valve [and the spring] to ensure the working chamber hydraulically locks up. If you think about it 30 psi oil press could not lock a valve lifter when 180 psi is trying thru leverage to squash the daylights out of it.
Daniel...when valve guides are stuffed, they have their own distinctive crack crack crack and it is the valve stem hitting the guide wall. maybe a bit of cranky valve seat noise too. When guide wear noise is present it is difficult to isolate the lifter noise. As I mentioned earlier, you can get a great static reading for the lifter clearances but as soon as you start it, ouch.! Unless it's out by a country mile, lifter clearance issues are a more benign clic clic clik..not crack crack crack. IMHO, it would be a rarity for a guide to be so worn that the lifter could never compensate.
If u think about it, just say some lifters were nearly always in lash. Up to about 6 thou would still sound like a solid lifter motor..tap.. tap tap.
This engine of HC's sounds like it's gargling 3 inch ball bearings.
Nearly for sure our case study here is shagged guides [putting aside the pump possibility ] but we need to eliminate the lifters.
So until such time as Harry C gets on with it, we are all spinning our wheels.
btw when you get a random tik tik tik passing in and out of the oh valve gear, it will generally be the same little annoying little rogue beastie lifter. Isolating it is a curse but why is it so? Assuming all things being equal...solid guide clearances...clean gallery..newish lifter..compatible rocker arm socket..correct setting, the only explanation is......I reckon dodgey ball valve in the lifter...
well, now that we have successfully hijacked this post ;D
Randy, not sure if you recall our back and forth on the M100 site (RIP for now), but here is a pic of what I found on one of my compensators when I pulled it:
As you can see the LHS one in the pic had popped out of it's collar completely once I took the rocker arm off.
I have researched this topic a lot, and apparently only 2 things can cause this:
1) Valve float - highly unlikely in my case - also valve springs are top notch.
2) Negative clearance - hmmm..?
Also, I am still perplexed by the fact that my tapping is intermittent. Surely with worn out guides on the inside of the guide, and valve hitting laterally the side of the guide, the noise will be constant and quite the racket, no? My noise comes and goes every 3 - 5 seconds, cycling faster as you pick up revs, but it is definitely not constant, but "on" and "off".
All 16 lifters are new, and I have also replaced the rocker arm on this suspect lifter. Cams are also new (30k miles and look great), and gallery has been surgically cleaned.
Man would I like to solve this riddle...
Randy, that's not entirely correct. I already touched on why the spring is there, so repeating what was said wasn't necessary. The spring, whether it's present or not, is not strong enough to hold things together when the camshaft lobe comes around to open the valve. The ones in the 6.9 engines I have here have no springs in them, nor is there a "ball" valve. They're nothing but an inner and outer part.....just like the later M-117 engines. I have to wonder if someone put the wrong hydraulic elements in both of these engines....but both ran very well and quiet before they were removed. Go figure. Furthermore, the oil pressure at high RPM is much higher than 30psi. The system runs at 45-60 psi. Remember that the numbers on the oil pressure gauge, 1, 2, and 3, refer to 1 Bar, 2 Bar, 3 Bar, etc. One bar equals 14.7 psi, and 3 bar equals 44.1 psi. Suffice to say, oil pressures have much more to do with the hydraulic elements than you give credit for.
Daantjie, since you have new camshafts, hydraulic elements, and good valve springs we can rule out a lot. This only leaves sloppy guides and/or incorrectly set lash clearances caused by a wrong thickness shim or bad hydraulic element. Wrong valve lash clearances can cause intermittent ticking, and while worn guides are usually a constant tick, that won't always be the case. But do rule out your hydraulic pump first. They also cause intermittent ticking when internal problems arise or when a leveling valve has a massive internal leak.
The M116/7 engines use the same elements though, right up to the 420/560 and they have the springs... I've built up quite a collection of them.
I also have a set off a 380 M116 that are the same. You'd think if anything it would be the first M100s that would have a different version (maybe the first run of the revised M116/7 from 76 too).
Tim
Utn_boy, did you take any photos of those lifters when you had them out?
Tim
Quote from: UTn_boy on 19 December 2017, 08:45 PM
Randy, that's not entirely correct. I already touched on why the spring is there, so repeating what was said wasn't necessary. The spring, whether it's present or not, is not strong enough to hold things together when the camshaft lobe comes around to open the valve. The ones in the 6.9 engines I have here have no springs in them, nor is there a "ball" valve. They're nothing but an inner and outer part.....just like the later M-117 engines. I have to wonder if someone put the wrong hydraulic elements in both of these engines....but both ran very well and quiet before they were removed. Go figure. Furthermore, the oil pressure at high RPM is much higher than 30psi. The system runs at 45-60 psi. Remember that the numbers on the oil pressure gauge, 1, 2, and 3, refer to 1 Bar, 2 Bar, 3 Bar, etc. One bar equals 14.7 psi, and 3 bar equals 44.1 psi. Suffice to say, oil pressures have much more to do with the hydraulic elements than you give credit for.
Daantjie, since you have new camshafts, hydraulic elements, and good valve springs we can rule out a lot. This only leaves sloppy guides and/or incorrectly set lash clearances caused by a wrong thickness shim or bad hydraulic element. Wrong valve lash clearances can cause intermittent ticking, and while worn guides are usually a constant tick, that won't always be the case. But do rule out your hydraulic pump first. They also cause intermittent ticking when internal problems arise or when a leveling valve has a massive internal leak.
Thanks Aaron. My pump has been overhauled and I am sure it is not the pump. Also, there is no way a leaking leveling valve will cause the pump to make a noise, as the pump feeds the pressure regulator, which in turn feeds the "5th sphere" (main accumulator), which in turn supports the leveling valves via the height control switch, so there are multiple check valves and system buffers between the pump and the valve.
Also, I really do not see that the pump could cause such a sort cycling noise. Once the cut over pressure has been reached (you will actually feel a knock on top of the main bolt on the pressure regulator when this happens), the pump does very little work, unless needed to pump up the 5th sphere again. Excess fluid is now being returned to the tank via return/leak lines and duct in the pressure regulator, and this is the very slow dribble you can see through the filter in the tank with the car running. This is all very clearly laid out in the service manual. Again there is no way that the pump should cycle on and off every 5 seconds.
For a test of the cut over, and it's pretty cool to watch too, have someone actuate the "H" setting with you watching the fluid in the tank with a strong flashlight, while keeping your hand on the large bolt. You will see the fluid rapidly dropping as the fluid is now pumped into the struts to raise the car. Once the pressure has been equalized again, you will clearly feel the knock as cut over is reached. Then again you will see the fluid rush back into the tank as the lever is pushed back in to "N" setting.
Hi Daniel,
My car was also doing the cycling... I became very familiar with it too. I put it down to some kind of weird harmonics as it was at highway cruising speeds. Unfortunately I haven't road tested the car yet to confirm if it's actually quiet now, but that will be happening very soon (some time over the next couple of weeks). Initial running of the engine suggests that all is good now though.
Tim
yes Daniel I recall we touched on your specific issue on the M1oo Board. In fact a lot of this thread has already been covered in that forum.
If you read the bottom of my last post, I advanced the theory that your symptom is likely due to a rogue lifter that has intermittent locking issues. Whilst you have concentrated on one dodgey element in the past and replaced the lifter/rocker etc, there is nothing to suggest that is the ongoing culprit.
EM me separately and I will explain to you how I would proceed..it's a long rigamaorle that we won't clog this Board with.
Cheers
Quote from: Randys01 on 20 December 2017, 05:49 PM
yes Daniel I recall we touched on your specific issue on the M1oo Board. In fact a lot of this thread has already been covered in that forum.
If you read the bottom of my last post, I advanced the theory that your symptom is likely due to a rogue lifter that has intermittent locking issues. Whilst you have concentrated on one dodgey element in the past and replaced the lifter/rocker etc, there is nothing to suggest that is the ongoing culprit.
EM me separately and I will explain to you how I would proceed..it's a long rigamaorle that we won't clog this Board with.
Cheers
Will do boss ;D
Quote from: TJ 450 on 20 December 2017, 04:14 AM
The M116/7 engines use the same elements though, right up to the 420/560 and they have the springs... I've built up quite a collection of them.
I also have a set off a 380 M116 that are the same. You'd think if anything it would be the first M100s that would have a different version (maybe the first run of the revised M116/7 from 76 too).
Tim
Are you sure about the M-116/M-117 hydraulic elements? Again, none of the ones I have, have replaced, or current used ones have springs in them. This is all too strange.
And no, I didn't take pictures, but I can certainly take some. What exactly would you like a picture of?
Daantjie, The pump can make ticking noises on a cyclic basis if one of the leveling valves, lines, or regulator is blocked. It'll also make noises when it's worn out. They'll only make noises from being worn out if they've been starved of lubrication.
Hello all, thank you to everyone who posted their insight over the years!
The saga continues on this vehicle. I took a long (LONG) hiatus from looking at the car. I put stabil in the tank and started up the car periodically over the years to the keep the suspension happy. Shockingly the vehicle has remained in a relative state of quality as the years have gone by.
Since we last spoke:
I did the full valve shim procedure and while I did make many adjustments, the sound of the engine did not change whatsoever. I also inspected inside the cylinders and did not notice any scouring.
The motor still makes the exact same noise but it does not seem to be getting worse.
Here is the link again. Any thoughts? The only thing I have not done from the thread is to remove the hydraulic pump and run the engine without it. I feel like the next step after that is to inspect the rod bearings. Does anyone have a video of their engine with a bad pump? I would be shocked if a pump could make such a noise.
https://youtu.be/TFkaaZfeUj4?si=bRRY-xCOS7dTWmYQ
As an update to newcomers: Strange intermittent ticking noise from engine. Valves adjusted, chain and guides replaced, all hydraulic lifters replaced.
Have you already ruled out the rotocaps?
Crack in the manifold?
I have not thought to check the rotocaps specifically. But I have spent many hours staring at the valvetrain and I did not notice any abnormalities. Exhaust manifold is solid, if that is what you're referring to.
Thank you
broken rotocaps do make such noise.
A (small) crack in the exhaust manifold can add to this too. Look for gas pulsing on the downside of the exhaust manifold.
(https://i.ibb.co/QMSTd6P/Zwischenablagebild-37.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/dp6pVF7/Zwischenablagebild-35.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNtNyfQ)
I had an intermittent loud ticking noise on my M110 engine and found it was the air filter housing hitting the valve cover occasionally, especially when the engine was warm with just a little bit of a rough idle - the point is, I starting thinking it was a rod bearing and ended up with something super simple.
Thank you, yes that is the most logical thought process and id like to believe I have considered all the small potentials.
This has been an issue for over 6 years.
I've had cars with bad rod bearings and this doesn't really sound like one, but you never know.
To those who have had the pump noise. Did your suspension function as normal?
I still highly doubt that the suspension pump could make such a racket. You could take a mechanics stethoscope and put the probe to the pump to see if you hear this clacking noise inside the pump. Sometimes these very basic tools can be quite helpful.