I am now preparing for front seal replacement.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19052-4/LH+Starter+Aperture.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19056-4/Cover+Removed.jpg)
However, I'm faced with the problem of how to lock the flywheel or counterholding the crankshaft whilst applying the enormous torque required to undo that crankshaft nut. ::)
Ideally, the starter flange detent would be a nice addition to my tool kit right now, but is there a safe alternative?
Tim
.r.
I'm not keen on the idea of the rope trick - bit risky. When I did the front seal on my 280SE, I locked the flywheel in the area exposed by the bell housing access plate. The torque on the M110 front nut is 400Nm. The M100 differs a bit in arrangement, but maybe you can adapt my trick. On the M110, there are 6 bolt heads passing through the flywheel into the torque converter. The heads are recessed into openings in the flywheel. I foud a socket that fitted tightly into one of the recesses - it may have been 16 or 17mm. Rotate the crank in the forward direction until one of the recesses just appears enough to jam the socket it. Fit the socket, start applying force to the crank front nut in the release direction, inspect to see if the socket has lodged safely. THen go for it. I was concerned that the amount of force I was subjecting the socket to, it might break or crack the alloy bellhousing - but it all went well.
Never come across the flywheel lock for our engines while browsing the tool websites and never dared ask the price at a dealership.
One of the local independents said he jams bits of wood in between the ring gear and bell housing but I couldn't see that working.
My method was to take a 250 or 300 mm square of 6 mm mild steel and using the crank pulley as a guide mark and drill the six bolt holes, mark the circumference of the big center hole and cut it out using the join up the little holes method and start filing.
Drill a hole at each corner of the square, drill matching holes in a piece of 50 mm angle iron about a meter long so that it mounts along one side of the square.
Bolt the plate to the crank (recall needing some spacer washers because the harmonic damper flange is proud of the crank end), bolt the angle iron to the plate so the end of it sits on the ground to the left looking at the crank end, now start heaving on the bolt with a 50 mm socket and a long, long tommy bar.
EDIT: I found the plate, it's actually octagonal, 200 mm between opposite faces, with eight bolt holes for angle iron, one in the center of each face.
koan
I would like to retract my suggestion about jamming a socket onto one of the bolts from the flywheel to the torque converter - I've just spent the evening refitting a 6.9 sump, and while I was under there I examined the arrangement, and I think my original suggestion would be a very very bad idea on the M100.
This IS a M100, and should be treated with respect. Koan's suggestion is far, far better, and I think it would be well worth the time needed to make up the tool he describes.
.
I have the genuine Porsche Flywheel lock and will post a photo when I get a chance.
It may be possible to make up a plate that bolts to it to convert it for M-100 use
You are welcome to borrow it if you remember to return it under pain of death (or worse).
I assume you need it real soon but if you can wait a few days I will look at the picture of the M-B one and see if the Porsche one can be modified - or you are welcome to borrow it.
I'm having a shed day and will PM you my mobile if you want to discuss it.
Bill
Here is a picture of my Porsche flywheel lock P233 for front engined porsches.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/WGB_album/Flywheellock.jpg)
The distance between bolt hole centres is 105mm
Front to back is 40 mm and inside mounting surface to end of teeth is 30 mm.
It may be possible to mount on one or either starter motor bolt (depending on whether you are loosening or tightening the crankshaft nut) and put a wedge between the housing and the tool to hold the teeth in mesh or if the flywheel teeth are deeper than 30 mm you could bolt a plate to the back of the tool to hold it in the correct mesh.
Bill
Addendum - Measured my starter bolt distance today and the centres appear to be the same 105mm apart. Maybe Porsche and Mercedes Bosch starters share some dimensions. It only depends on depth to the teeth, tooth size and off centre position whether or not it would work as it is.
I know Porsche used a number of Mercedes bits at times - maybe they used the same or similar in starter motors.
let it be known that the honourable Dr Babe, called me as he didnt have tims number to let tim know he had this device!
didnt get the missed call till on the way home though Bill, but im sure Tim would have been very grateful...he had success regardless!
Anyway the offer is still there if you want to try it out.
I changed the engine mounts and transmission mount on my 6.9 today and was gobsmacked when I realised the bolt holes were the same. I wasn't going to take out my starter just to see if it fitted and was getting a bit tired when I spotted the cover plate on the right hand side for the alternate starter position used in LHD but I might remove this cover plate sometime and see if it works if someone doesn't try it out sooner.
Anyway if you want to buy one yourself they are only US$44.95 and are available here
www.944online.com (http://www.944online.com/cgi-bin/ASI_Store.cgi?Product+skukey_1000811+9441+tools-9441)
This place offers the same level of service as AutohausAZ except that they use Credit cards rather than Paypal and need a copy of your card and your drivers licence faxed to them with the first purchase. I used them repeatedly when my Porsche was alive.
Bill
Thanks for all the assistance, guys. ;)
Well, with a bit of team work, we had success using the "Rope Method". When it comes to torquing the nut back up, I think Bill's Porsche flywheel lock will be the preference.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19062-4/M100+front.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19065-4/6_9+Front.jpg)
I purchased a puller, but it only came with two bolts the correct size and I don't want to ruin the flange, so the harmonic balancer remains installed at the moment. I will investigate how I will remove it over the next week or so and will hopefully remove it next weekend.
In fact, I'm going to need to lock the flywheel when using the puller, so perhaps I'll call you next Saturday, Bill.
Tim
.
Quote from: Patrick Bateman on 13 July 2008, 07:14 AM
If bills device fits in the hole correctly.... ::) - please order me one too, It'd be great for future work.
I'll be getting one too.
koan
I purchased a "heavy duty" harmonic balancer puller today and subsequently removed the balancer with the aid of Dr. Babe's Porsche flywheel lock. I highly recommend this device!
The seal itself was due for replacement, but wasn't too bad. However, the crusty sludge on the oil pump chain doesn't look that great.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19189-4/flywheel+lock.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19186-4/damper+removal.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19194-4/seal+removed.jpg)
...Tim
Good job, that's a very nice puller, it looks more substantial than the usual cast Y shape type, where did you find it?
What about WGB's Porsche flywheel lock, did that fit without modification?
Are you aware of the manual (as in book) recommended way of getting the hub back on? Heating to 80C in an oven and sliding it back on in one operation.
koan
.
I'm pleased to hear it worked Tim.
Pb - you pay either $45 to buy one or borrow for nothing and you takes your chances.
Porsche crankshaft bolt is between 210Nm and 270Nm depending on model so it is still substantial even if not 400 Nm.
For security it would not be too difficult to make up another couple of teeth and weld them on .
Bill
Hi Koan,
The puller is an ABW that was purchased from Coventry's. It is also designed for the GM 3.8L V6, the only problem I had was that I needed longer bolts so as to not deform the threads on the hub during removal. That was easily fixed and it certainly did the trick. I also inverted it's operation to reinstall the unit after heating in the oven. With some experiments with packing I managed to pull the unit back on far enough to fit the crankshaft nut back on to bring it home. This was done using one of the bolts from the puller kit through several sockets as packing, through the puller plate and into the female thread on the end of the crankshaft. On the in-between phase, I used some of the convex washers (taking care to remember their arrangement) with the crankshaft nut inverted as per PB's instructions.
The nut is now torqued up such that the washers are no longer convex, but flat. I will hire a suitable torque wrench next weekend to do the final torquing of the nut to the specified 400NM.
PB, I believe the "weakest link" is actually the flywheel ring gear, so if any disasters do occur, there will be some anger. 8)
Pics to come shortly.
Tim
.
After the water pump is reinstalled, I still have to:
1. Renew timing chain
2. Replace sump hoses
I also have on order from autohausaz, all hoses for aux transmission pump, idler arm bush kit (Lemforder), timing chain master link. Engine mounts are out of stock, so I may go genuine (ouch!). I will order the hydraulic dampers next week along with their bushes.
Here are the pics:
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19214-4/new+seal.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19217-4/new+seal+2.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19209-4/balancer+2.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19206-4/balancer+1.jpg)
Tim
.
I called in to see Tim at home and he is doing very well with limited resources.
Keep it up Tim your enthusiasm is unbelievable.
Just don't expect to finish it all too quickly.
Bill
Hmmm. I didn't pack the seal with grease, but I did smear grease over the sealing lips and its journal. The manual says "Give radial seal grease at sealing lip and pull in with installer". There was certainly no signs of grease being packed in the original seal, only a film of oil. Of course, this is no indication of what is correct.
If I have to remove it again, it will just be slightly annoying.
I'm in no rush to get this finished, aside from returning the flywheel lock.
Thanks for the support, Bill. ;)
Tim
I couldn't get the hub back on "in one operation" as the book says, tried three times and gave up. Final time got it on far enough to use the crank nut to pull it up.
Don't know if you have done the timing chain sliding rails but they should be done while the water pump is off as at least one of them can't be removed with the pump in place. The sliding rails are not too expensive, the tensioning rail is the killer.
Agree with PB about grease in between the lips of the seal...
My final touch after painting the balencer was to colour in the graduations with one of the enamel markers.
koan
It sounds like I should pack the seal with grease.
I think that's the tensioner rail lower pin... sounds like the chain will need to be done before the water pump goes back on, as I will need to check that rail and perhaps replace the lining if there is one. I had considered replacing the lower LHS curved rail just above the crankshaft sprocket, but perhaps that is overkill. It will obviously require removal of the balancer and lower crankcase cover yet again, not to mention the oil pump chain.
Tim
Quote from: TJ 450 on 20 July 2008, 07:05 AM
I'm in no rush to get this finished, aside from returning the flywheel lock.
Tim
Just do the job properly and we'll worry about the flywheel lock later.
That is a very big and short duplex chain driving that oil pump so that should not be much of a problem whatever it looks like.
The tensioner rail should only need replacement if very deeply grooved.
The problem is how far do you go,
If you take the attitude that everything needs to be replaced you will also need a new crankshaft chain sprocket as well as all guides and camshaft sprockets.
This does not seem very practical to me in real world dollar terms.
I agree you need to be happy that the seal is greased sufficiently on initial startup but keep an open mind about how much perfection is required.
I am very happy to come down one day and help you spin in a new chain if required but that doesn't need the front off the motor and $20 buys a couple of offset keys to get the chain sitting right and allow for sprocket wear.
Bill
Quote from: TJ 450 on 20 July 2008, 07:27 PM
It sounds like I should pack the seal with grease.
Yes, then you won't be overcome with a nagging doubt at some future date ;)
Quote
I think that's the tensioner rail lower pin...
And I think the two lower rails in the block. I bought some of the rails recently, a couple where very cheap even from a dealer, one was less than $10 because its not M100 specific.
The upper rails in the cylinder heads can be put off till later and be done with the chain.
The chain tensioning rail was $700 a couple of years ago, getting it relined may be a better idea.
WGB is right about knowing when to stop. Plastic/nylon bits like the rails though, bits that are probably 30 years old and make a bit of a mess when they break and jam the chain are prime candidates for replacement.
koan
I have made the decision this morning. The two lower plastic guide rails are being replaced, they are reasonably priced from the dealer at a combined $30. I ordered them this morning. The cheapest one was in fact $8 (the flat one on the LHS).
I won't be changing the sprockets, as their wear doesn't really concern me and it will not be economically feasible to do so as you said, Bill.
Quote from: koan on 21 July 2008, 12:24 AM
Yes, then you won't be overcome with a nagging doubt at some future date ;)
That would be quite likely. ;)
Tim
Sounds like a wise economic decision Tim.
I am also quite genuine about helping you spin in a new chain if and when you are ready.
I am going to try and make a copy of the "Koan recommended valve lifter" which will remove the right sided rockers and make the whole process a little safer.
Bill
That sounds excellent and would be greatly appreciated. Rocker removal would make it a lot easier.
I'll be renewing the chain before the water pump is installed, just in case that tensioner rail needs attention.
As a side note, I have ordered the Niemoeller catalogue "F" for future endeavours.
Tim
Told you some are not that expensive!
About the tensioner rail, i replaced mine because of the groves in it but that was before I spoke to my mechanically learned mate. He pointed out that there are always grooves where the edges of the chain run, when the grooves are deep enough to let the rollers run on the rail the wear stops. So as long as the running surface is not breaking up and you judge it as unlikely to it should be OK.
koan
.
The EPC would be a great help. I can't believe how slow the system is at the main dealers, plus it would remove the uncertainty as to whether or not I have ordered the correct part. ;)
Tim
Quote from: WGB on 21 July 2008, 05:20 AM
I am going to try and make a copy of the "Koan recommended valve lifter" which will remove the right sided rockers and make the whole process a little safer.
Do you mean the spring compressor or the plywood jig?
The jig holds the chain against the sprocket on both entry and exit sides with very little risk of the cam doing an unexpected rotation caused by the valve springs.
koan
I'm a fan of the spring compressor Koan and would appreciate some measurements.
I have a copy of your photo's and was going to estimate the size from the 50mm cross section steel used.
Once the cam followers are removed I would trust the wooden frame more.
I did my 117 450 with cable ties but found I needed two ties a time to work and still jumped the odd tooth. The Vice-grip method was much more satisfactory and not one slip with the 6.9 - both cars had their cam followers intact.
Bill
I removed the Crankcase Cover tonight for a bit of an inspection. It looks like the curved rail is going to be difficult to remove due to the size of it, I should be able to get it out though with some slack in the chain. The LH lower rail has deep grooves in it, but as you pointed out Koan, once it gets down to the rollers it won't wear much. This one is easy to remove and is the $8 part.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19224-4/crankcase+housing+removed.jpg)
Before I get too carried away with this, is it vital to get the piston in #1 at TDC before releasing the tensioner, or is this not necessary?
Tim
P.S. I won't be touching the car again until the weekend and the cover is back on to stop any foreign objects from getting in the crankcase. ;)
I removed the RHS curved rail from the top after the tensioning rail was out and lowered it back with bent coat hanger wire.
No need to have the engine at TDC for rail replacement or removing the tensioner.
Doesn't matter how you pull the tensioner out but the manual gives the following sequence. Remove the plug which is under spring pressure, then the threaded ring which is under the plug (using the same tool as the plug), the two bolts that hold the flange and finally withdrawing the sleeve and pressure "bolt".
The important thing is to "reset" the tensioner by removing the pressure bolt from the sleeve by taking out the clip in the end of the sleeve and pulling the bolt out.
To install put the clip back in the end of the sleeve and slide the bolt in just far enough so it engages the ratchet and then assemble on the engine in reverse order of removal taking care not to extend the pressure bolt until the spring and cap are put back.
koan
Quote from: WGB on 21 July 2008, 08:08 AM
I'm a fan of the spring compressor Koan and would appreciate some measurements.
Sorry WGB, was going to do it last night but didn't get the time.
Intend to measure, draw, scan and post as a jpg in the gallery.
Quote
I have a copy of your photo's and was going to estimate the size from the 50mm cross section steel used.
Its 40mm not 50mm, and 6mm thick.
koan
Is there a trick to removing the tensioner housing in the cylider head? The manual says to pull it out, but it doesn't seem to want to move.
Tim
Quote from: TJ 450 on 22 July 2008, 11:59 PM
Is there a trick to removing the tensioner housing in the cylider head? The manual says to pull it out, but it doesn't seem to want to move.
If the flange is off it should just pull out. It can only be gummed in there unless someone has used some sealer on it. Clean the business end of it, remove any build up of gunge and have another go.
koan
I take it you have removed the large flange part which is bolted to the head - not just unscrewed the end cap.
The tensioner won't come out until the flange is removed.
Flange gasket - A100 052 09 80
Aluminium sealing ring - N 007603 028104.
Picked up two of each from Diesels today so that I can put in my offset keys - one each to use and one as a spare.
Bill
Quote from: WGB on 23 July 2008, 05:43 AM
I take it you have removed the large flange part which is bolted to the head - not just unscrewed the end cap.
Yes, the flange has been removed as well. The only thing left installed is that housing. I'll have another go at it when the weather clears up.
I received a chain connecting link today (with the two circlips), the aux transmission pump hoses and a transmission mount.
Thanks for those part numbers, I'll need to order both those items.
Tim
It must just be crudded into the head.
Gentle persuasion from the tensioner slider side should back it out ?Hammer handle and gentle leverage on the back of the chain where it presses against the top of the tensioner slider.
Be careful how much force you use or you could perhaps affect the ratchet.
I don't know where you are getting your parts but 000-997-79-94 is the timing chain with single clip master link and full cost is US$124 (M-100 club price $105.40) while the tensioner with a gasket but no seal ring is 100-050-05-11 US$216 (M-100 club price $183.60) with $40 postage is what it cost me 3 months ago from Tom Hanson at the Classic Centre.
The ratcheting tensioner is probably eminently re-usable but some people replace the spring clip that provides the surface for the ratchet action but I don't know the part no for that spring.
Quote from: koan on 22 July 2008, 08:15 PM
Quote from: WGB on 21 July 2008, 08:08 AM
I'm a fan of the spring compressor Koan and would appreciate some measurements.
Sorry WGB, was going to do it last night but didn't get the time.
Intend to measure, draw, scan and post as a jpg in the gallery.
Quote
Thanks Koan, I would appreciate your measurements when you hjave time.
Bill
Well, this job has been completed... I hope. 8)
I hired a suitable torque wrench and with a makeshift extension, torqued the nut up to just over 400NM or 300 foot pounds.
Here we go... click for a larger view.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19583-3/wrench.jpg) (http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19582-4/wrench.jpg)
...Tim
Congratulations- I take it the flywheel teeth held and nothing untoward happened.
Bill
The teeth held and it worked perfectly. I don't know what I would have done without that flywheel lock, so a massive thankyou for that, Bill. 8)
Do you plan to venture down here at some point? Otherwise I can drop it off next time I'm up your way.
Tim
.
Replacing the lower guide rails is as far as I've got with the chain replacement so far. The rest of the parts are on their way from the classic centre as we speak.
You may test drive it when it's complete, but that will be a while yet.
Tim
Quote from: TJ 450 on 30 August 2008, 10:25 PM
The teeth held and it worked perfectly. I don't know what I would have done without that flywheel lock, so a massive thankyou for that, Bill. 8)
Do you plan to venture down here at some point? Otherwise I can drop it off next time I'm up your way.
Tim
Hi Tim,
I will be going to meetings in Fremantle the next two Saturday Mornings so might cross the river and drive by on the way home if it suits on one of the Saturdays.
I am still happy to help with the chain swap if needed when you are ready and quite happy to try out the new "Koan Design" valve lifter on your car so long as you have a grinder handy to make any "adjustments" if necessary and it would certainly make the chain fitment much easier.
Bill