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Garage => Mechanicals => Topic started by: daantjie on 28 March 2020, 02:36 PM

Title: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: daantjie on 28 March 2020, 02:36 PM
Hi guys

A little birdie told me that the 6.9 engine mountings are again available.  Might be worth an email to the Classic Centre for those of you interested.

Cheers

Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: slfan on 28 March 2020, 04:24 PM

Thank you for the Heads-up!
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: raueda1 on 29 March 2020, 10:12 AM
Just my luck!  I've got new 450sel mountings waiting to go in.  Anybody know how different they are?  and while we're on the subject of mounts, wouldn't it be nice if they brought back the strut mounts?
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: daantjie on 29 March 2020, 11:42 AM
Dave I think they are of much harder rubber than the others.
Can you post up the part number and pricing from the Classic Centre?
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: UTn_boy on 29 March 2020, 04:04 PM
I received an email from the Classic center, and if I remember correctly they were something like $105 each. 
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: TJ 450 on 29 March 2020, 11:52 PM
The rubber is much harder than the 450SEL ones... They would not last long.

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: nathan on 30 March 2020, 05:52 AM
if the dollar wasn't so rubbish, id get some spares...
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: ptashek on 30 March 2020, 09:47 AM
Apart from the rubber being harder, are there any other differences? I was thinking of getting a spare 6.9 set for my standard 450. If they're stiffer, they won't collapse as quickly.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: UTn_boy on 30 March 2020, 01:57 PM
The rubber is much harder than the 450SEL ones... They would not last long.

Tim

Just so you know, the standard M-117 engine mounts are up to the task, and do it quite well.  Back when the 6.9 mounts weren't available I had to buy M-117 mounts for my 6.9.  4 years  and 5,000 miles later they're still holding strong.  You must remember that the 6.9 and 4.5 don't have that much weight difference.  It's likely the additional torsional twisting force from the torque of the 6.9 that'll kill 4.5 mounts, but I don't have a heavy foot and I renewed the torque dampers when I did the work.  Even so, it killed me to put something on that wasn't right, but it turned out well. 

Lucas, I was thinking the same thing, but the only 4.5 cars I have now are W108 and W109 cars, which use a different mount.  Dad's 450sel already has new mounts on it, so I guess until they collapse I'll wait to buy spare 6.9 mounts. 
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: TJ 450 on 31 March 2020, 01:46 AM
That sounds about right, although it does surprise me that there wouldn't be a reasonable weight diffefence.

I think you will find that after 10 years they will be quite compressed and in need of replacement vs. the 6.9 ones which should hold up unless oil soaked. Still, they are a lot cheaper so it's probably justified.

You might find the softer mounts offer a smoother driving experience on the plus side.

Tim.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: Mattr on 03 April 2020, 05:10 PM
Can you define "reasonable weight difference" because all of my searching points to about a 150lb difference between a M117 and M100 long block. Combine that with the Biblically different torque, and I'd worry about the M117 motor mounts falling apart unless you've a light foot.

Oh, and my swb 6.9 has M117 mounts on it, and in ~4000 miles since the car was built, one of them has busted. I think driving plays a big factor: since I've a heavy foot and love my exhaust note.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: rumb on 04 April 2020, 10:52 AM
I bet this guy will be bummed to learn that his parts are now worth 1/4 of what he is asking:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Mercedes-w116-450-sel-6-9-engine-support-NOS/233407655747?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225116%26meid%3Dd0182e8d547d4c3e8d503ce9baa376db%26pid%3D100970%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D8%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D163853335938%26itm%3D233407655747%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100970.m5481&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad178eca2-769c-11ea-85d3-74dbd1803921%7Cparentrq%3A46510c4c1710aa1385f9ae5efff7fb5c%7Ciid%3A1
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: Wolfgang Germany on 04 April 2020, 02:51 PM
this guy offers all things at least ten times too high  ::)
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: UTn_boy on 05 April 2020, 06:34 AM
People like the fella selling the motor mounts for 1,200 Euros is a large part of why the hobby becomes unenjoyable, costly, and off putting to many.  I wish there were some way to put a cap on price for certain things, but even then how would that be determined?  Greed is an ugly thing, and no one wears it well. 
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 07 April 2020, 08:51 AM
There are a bunch of ways to look at it. When there was the price gouging going on in '05 during Katrina, it was next to impossible to buy gas in Georgia for a week or two due to something in the supply chain breaking for a state or two. Gas went up to whatever, maybe $8/gallon some places. I made a mental note of these stations and said that I would never shop there, so it comes back on them in the long run when they lose a fraction of their customer base. They did, however, have gas when no one else did, so if you needed to go a few miles down the road, spending $10 is better than running the tank dry and having the car towed. With the almost NLA parts, the price gouger may be the only one with the parts, but no one is buying them, and he may be sitting on them for decades. It is good in my opinion to not only know that there is a part out there somewhere but to know where that part is. Paying $1000 for a piece of rubber might be cheap to the guy who just put $100k into a $5k 6.9 for a transcon race and had to get that part at the last minute.

Anyway, I'm glad to be taking time on my project and having parts show up. The 6.9's motor has been rocking quite violently when I have been tuning the WUR, enough to be concerned with hitting a resonance mode and having the car rock/jump off the jackstands. I may order a set of mounts once business returns to normal. You guys are great.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: revilla on 07 April 2020, 09:36 PM
Exactly.
The universal principle of pricing by law of supply and demand. Never fails... never
This is how a true open market regulates itself. It’s been doing so for millennia, and it will continue to apply for many moons to come.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: UTn_boy on 08 April 2020, 12:29 PM
Supply and demand is BS.  It's a get rich quick scheme thought up by a greedy SOB to take advantage of people when a supply of something is low and when demand is high.  I'm not against anyone making a buck, but there are ethical lines NOT to be crossed.  Then again, greedy people are sociopaths with not one strand of empathy or compassion towards man kind. However, there is something that these people don't realize.......Conventions of this asinine supply and demand are often trumped by one thing......the majority. 

Consider the following:  1) If there were only 100 6.9 owners in the world after a set of motor mounts
                                   2)only one set of 6.9 motor mounts for sale world wide
                                   3)the person selling them is asking $1,000 for the set
                                   4) Everyone knows they're not worth anywhere near $1,000

Here is what usually happens.  Only 10% of people will pay that price because they can afford to.  The remaining 90% will not buy them at that price.  If the  10% aren't in the market, but the 90% is, then the seller has no choice but to sell the mounts at a price the majority is willing to pay if he/she wants to sell them.  Granted, the seller may hold out and not lower the price for a long period of time, but eventually, the majority will take control simply because they're the ones willing to buy the part, but only at the price they themselves are willing to offer. 

If the 10% does buy the mounts for the $1,000 price tag, that would obviously end the supply, but the minds of the 90% remain unchanged, and the 90% would still hold control over the market if/when the mounts ever became available again or up for sale again. 

The aforementioned is how the majority can trump the supply and demand conventions, and is a hypothetical scenario,but hopefully the point is well taken. 
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 08 April 2020, 05:40 PM
That is a simplistic model though. If the only option for motor mounts really were $1000, I would jump on the opportunity and make a run of billet/polyurethane mounts. If there were a larger market, I would buy the machinery to do rubber.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: revilla on 18 April 2020, 11:11 AM
Supply and demand is BS.  It's a get rich quick scheme thought up by a greedy SOB to take advantage of people when a supply of something is low and when demand is high.  I'm not against anyone making a buck, but there are ethical lines NOT to be crossed.  Then again, greedy people are sociopaths with not one strand of empathy or compassion towards man kind. However, there is something that these people don't realize.......Conventions of this asinine supply and demand are often trumped by one thing......the majority. 

Consider the following:  1) If there were only 100 6.9 owners in the world after a set of motor mounts
                                   2)only one set of 6.9 motor mounts for sale world wide
                                   3)the person selling them is asking $1,000 for the set
                                   4) Everyone knows they're not worth anywhere near $1,000

Here is what usually happens.  Only 10% of people will pay that price because they can afford to.  The remaining 90% will not buy them at that price.  If the  10% aren't in the market, but the 90% is, then the seller has no choice but to sell the mounts at a price the majority is willing to pay if he/she wants to sell them.  Granted, the seller may hold out and not lower the price for a long period of time, but eventually, the majority will take control simply because they're the ones willing to buy the part, but only at the price they themselves are willing to offer. 

If the 10% does buy the mounts for the $1,000 price tag, that would obviously end the supply, but the minds of the 90% remain unchanged, and the 90% would still hold control over the market if/when the mounts ever became available again or up for sale again. 

The aforementioned is how the majority can trump the supply and demand conventions, and is a hypothetical scenario,but hopefully the point is well taken.

Hi Aaron,

I don’t agree with speculative pricing, like the person trying to sell those parts at $1000+.

Supply and demand works beautifully as the market won’t be willing/capable of paying his price. Thus either he decreases the price, or he might as well “eat” his parts in inventory depreciating and increasing his storage cost which at some point may force him considering lowering the price, maybe. As mentioned, if the demand is enough, another supplier will jump into the game and make them at an affordable cost (because the technology to do so is no secret and readily available).
So the philosophy is to not to pay those speculators considering these parts are not essential to run our machines. If we were talking about a part without which the car is useless, that’s another story, but then again another supplier will always come to our rescue and offer those same pieces at a lower price. That’s how free market works, it has always work and it will continue to work like that, fortunately or unfortunately.

Cheers
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 18 April 2020, 05:21 PM
So back on topic here; has anyone tried ordering these mounts yet? I would like to order a few, but I do not have the slightest idea whether they are taking orders presently.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 22 April 2020, 08:22 AM
Quote
123 241 14 13 $154.00 EACH SALE PRICE $123.20 EACH WE SOLD THE 6 WE HAVE 10 MORE COMING IN FROM GERMANY THIS WEEK

I ordered a pair. I would like to have ordered a spare pair on top of that but am being careful about spending because of the "W" or "WW" shaped recovery.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: raueda1 on 22 April 2020, 04:35 PM
I also ordered a pair.  Now I have 2 useless 450sel mounts, new in the box.  Anybody interested?
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 29 April 2020, 12:34 PM
Two mounts arrived today. They have a GMT rubber company logo and number 66012603 embossed. The date code looks like 11/19 or 12/19. There are two dots punched quite adjacently to each other on both mounts. They smell like a shoe store and have all the spray painted black junk that flakes off like Meyle (IIRC) mounts which I purchased recently. They have a red paint marker dot to the right of the numbering as well.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: daantjie on 29 April 2020, 12:52 PM
Hmm that sounds disappointing to be honest.  Can you post some pics?  I know exactly what you mean by that flaky black crap they coat the cheap rubber parts in, Febi also famous for that, not at all what I would have expected from Genuine MB Rubber.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 29 April 2020, 01:28 PM
Sure, I'll take some pictures. Also, I was charged $104 USD apiece plus $10 shipping, so they charged the the amount in nathan's email screen shot rather than the $123.20 that they quoted me.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 29 April 2020, 06:23 PM
After I made that post, I knocked over the empty bag, and it made a huge mess on the carpet. The flakes in this photo came from just positioning the mounts a few times!

Reminds me of some lyrics which I once heard.

German building, British made... why aye, man...

(https://i.imgur.com/bsm8fKX.jpg)
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: raueda1 on 29 April 2020, 06:40 PM
i got them too and also had the flakes come off.  My guess (and it's a very educated guess in this case) is that they spray the whole thing after it comes out of the mold to protect the metal.  There's certainly some mold release that stays with them on the rubber.  Hence paint doesn't adhere to the rubber.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 29 April 2020, 06:50 PM
The paint itself is too brittle to flex with the rubber anyway. There is probably a final step that they could apply to the process like tumbling in plastic media for a few minutes to knock the vast majority of the junk off.

Too bad that I don't have a durometer lying around. Now would be a great time to compare a few points between the 6.9 and 300SD mounts.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: TJ 450 on 29 April 2020, 08:18 PM
The mounts always have that black paint on them, it cracks off as soon as the rubber starts flexing. It’s the same with trans mounts as well. I often thought it was either to preserve the rubber in storage or just manufacturing process.

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: BCDC on 30 April 2020, 02:39 PM
I changed the mounts on my 280SE a couple of days ago, obviously they are not the same as the 6.9 ones but are the same brand without any paint as you can see from the picture. The metal part looked to be alloy to me so why they would paint them is more of a mystery. Just look at the difference in hight, totally collapsed as you would expect on a 42 year old vehicle. If you haven't done them do it.

BCDC 
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: revilla on 30 April 2020, 02:58 PM
I changed the mounts on my 280SE a couple of days ago, obviously they are not the same as the 6.9 ones but are the same brand without any paint as you can see from the picture. The metal part looked to be alloy to me so why they would paint them is more of a mystery. Just look at the difference in hight, totally collapsed as you would expect on a 42 year old vehicle. If you haven't done them do it.

BCDC

Excellent!
Can you detail the procedure please?
Any special tools required?
Mounts part number?
Thx
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: BCDC on 30 April 2020, 05:15 PM
I found the mounts after an internet search, I' sure you can get them in France as well. There are so many 280's out there that after market manufactures cover this item pretty well. The procedure was to hoist the car then undo the main large Allen bolts from under the car, then jack the engine up a bit using some wood to spread the load on the sump. Undo the top allen screws, which was a bit tricky on the exhaust side, we had to cut a 6mm allen wrench and use a ratchet spanner to undo the engine side one with a bit of swearing in a particularly Australian fashion that I can't repeat on this forum but I'm sure you can maybe imagine. Anyway we got it out then fitted the new ones, located the top screws and just slightly started the bottom one for location only then tightened the top allen screws. We then lowered the engine from the jack so that the full weight of the engine was on the body of the car and put the large bottom bots back in and tightened. All done. It is harder to put new engine mounts without removing the whole engine but is definitely worth the effort. Goos luck.

BCDC 
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: Randys01 on 30 April 2020, 08:31 PM
I am  reliably informed that doing the engine mounts on RHD at least 6.9 is a rotten job.....I had mine done by a full blown workshop and the snr mech is still on a rehab program. I would be really interested to learn of any body else's experiences.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: revilla on 30 April 2020, 09:43 PM
I found the mounts after an internet search, I' sure you can get them in France as well. There are so many 280's out there that after market manufactures cover this item pretty well. The procedure was to hoist the car then undo the main large Allen bolts from under the car, then jack the engine up a bit using some wood to spread the load on the sump. Undo the top allen screws, which was a bit tricky on the exhaust side, we had to cut a 6mm allen wrench and use a ratchet spanner to undo the engine side one with a bit of swearing in a particularly Australian fashion that I can't repeat on this forum but I'm sure you can maybe imagine. Anyway we got it out then fitted the new ones, located the top screws and just slightly started the bottom one for location only then tightened the top allen screws. We then lowered the engine from the jack so that the full weight of the engine was on the body of the car and put the large bottom bots back in and tightened. All done. It is harder to put new engine mounts without removing the whole engine but is definitely worth the effort. Goos luck.

BCDC

Thanks I appreciate it.  I will try to locate the parts on this side of the world.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: revilla on 30 April 2020, 09:54 PM
Can you please confirm these are the correct PNs?

123 241 52 13
123 241 12 13
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: BCDC on 01 May 2020, 03:38 PM
Not sure of the original part numbers but there are plenty on an e bay search. This was on the first page of search, not a bad price either.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Front-LH-or-RH-Engine-Mount-For-MERCEDES-BENZ-280S-280SE-SEL-W116-Auto-Manual/132549273482?hash=item1edc8d678a:g:YlAAAOSwfSJdXUyp

BCDC
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: PosedgeClk on 01 May 2020, 08:59 PM
This is kind of OT for this thread. It might be a good idea to fork because there will probably be some continued 6.9 discussion especially once the mounts are on.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: raueda1 on 27 May 2020, 05:01 PM
To add a little more info to this topic.....

As noted earlier, I had a set of 450SEL mounts and later ordered proper 6.9 mounts.  So guess what?  The 450SEl mounts got installed by accident.  I caught it and swapped them today.  A few observations:   It is very clear that the 6.9 mounts are much harder rubber.  When raising the engine I noticed that the 450sel mounts were extremely compressed.  The 6.9 mounts, hardly at all.  The 450sel mounts could actually be squeezed pretty easily by hand.  I expected harder rubber for the 6.9 but the difference was really quite dramatic. Changing the mounts with the engine in was a real bear.  Ugghh.  But I'll sleep better knowing that they're right.

Somewhat related, I also discovered that the engine shock struts are now larger than some earlier version already on the car.  The washers needed to be drilled out a tiny bit to fit.
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: jllgd on 27 February 2021, 08:45 AM
I am confused.
So what are the correct Mercedes part numbers for the Mercedes 6.9 engine mounts?
Are these rubber mounts now easily available from the Classic Centre?
Thanks

Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: daantjie on 30 March 2021, 08:39 AM
Well, these 6.9 mounts have since almost doubled in price >:(  Checked with the Classic Centre, now almost 200 bucks a pop,  man this hobby is starting to get unpleasant...Part# 123 241 14 13 if anyone wants to bend over :o
Title: Re: 6.9 engine mountings apparently back in production
Post by: ptashek on 31 March 2021, 02:16 PM
Well, these 6.9 mounts have since almost doubled in price >:(  Checked with the Classic Centre, now almost 200 bucks a pop,  man this hobby is starting to get unpleasant...Part# 123 241 14 13 if anyone wants to bend over :o

Doubled is not so bad ;)
The W124 estate/wagon rear tailgate seal has seen a heart-stopping 480% price hike in 12 months, and currently sells for 655EUR (780USD).