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The Badge

Started by Mforcer, 21 May 2007, 07:31 PM

frikkie

SA guys - have you ordered? Landed price? I'd love one...

s class

I've ordered 2, I think Greg in Cape Town has also ordered.  I can't remember if Grant ordered. 



[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL

Martin 280s

I know with hindsight it is easy but, should the issue of copyright not been looked into prior to offering various designs? Has anyone actually been sued by MB for using a similar design? Surely, similarity does not infringe copyright laws, does it? If so many people should have been sued for so many things!
Criticising people's hard work is not a good thing to do but, I just feel that all the time and effort applied to the other designs was wasted. This new model is not a bad design, I just don't appreciate the colour scheme. The German flag is good as a flag but if the colouring were more subdued I feel the new badge would be more effective and less brash. I have nothing against red cars, I've never had one but have had red motorbikes. But surely, a more neutral colour scheme would be easier on the eye?

gregdeklerk

I'll stick with my order. Any idea of the price and postage?

OzBenzHead

Quote from: Martin 280s on 22 May 2007, 06:56 AMHas anyone actually been sued by MB for using a similar design? Surely, similarity does not infringe copyright laws, does it?

Martin: It's less a matter of copyright than of trademarks.  Those are covered by the Berne Convention and most Western nations (and many others) are party to the BC.

A trademark is deemed to be infringed if there is less than 10% difference between the trademarked design and the newcomer - although it's far more complex than that one criterion.

M-B / DB / DC has a history of forcing many independent M-B service providers to cease using the star logo (or a verisimilitude thereof) as well as the words Mercedes, Merc (alone or in combinations such as e.g. MercParts), and Benz if such use may be construed as official association with the parent company of M-B.

The issue of copyright / trademarks was discussed in the grill(e) badge thread back in December, http://forum.w116.org/the-org/grille-badge/msg10714/#msg10714, but it seems the consensus at the time was not to worry about it.

It would be a shame to lose the rights to the badge were it deemed to contravene the tristar trademark (or elements thereof, such as the laurel wreath), and I think this recent turn of (design) events is most wise - even if a tad late.

Yes, I believe it should have been handled differently way back then, but it wasn't.
[img width=340 height=138][url="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png"]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png[/url][/img]

James R

OBH - I can't fault your legal argument but its not as if anyone's trying to profit out of this. This is the difference between someone selling Mercedes branded parts for use on cars (bonnets, doors etc) and a badge which is not for profit, specifically designed to celebrate the marque and which is likely to number no more than 30 in all. I therefore think it extremely unlikely that the letter of the law would be pursued in this case by D-C. Why would they ?
1978 450SEL 6.9 - GONE!

1979 450SEL - GONE!

s class

I'm a cautious sort, so I think it's wise to heed what OBH says, even though the spirit of what you say is reasonable James.  At the end of the day, if it ever becomes an issue, it will really hurt the site and its owners (Mforcer) will have to carry a rather large can - I wouldn't wish that on anyone, let alone or forum's owner.  So I can understand where Mforcer is coming from, and although I prefered the original badge, I'm going to stick behind Mforcer with this new badge. 

Related to what OBH was saying, some years ago there was a specialist MB breakers yard here trading as Merceda.  They were forced to change their name and settled on Merbeda.  Apparently the DB lawyers gave up trying to stop that one. 


[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL

Martin 280s

So if we are going to stick to this new design, brandishing a tri-star and image of an MB product, could be at least see it with a more sober colours? 

OzBenzHead

Quote from: James R on 22 May 2007, 08:33 AM
OBH - I can't fault your legal argument but its not as if anyone's trying to profit out of this. This is the difference between someone selling Mercedes branded parts for use on cars (bonnets, doors etc) and a badge which is not for profit, specifically designed to celebrate the marque and which is likely to number no more than 30 in all. I therefore think it extremely unlikely that the letter of the law would be pursued in this case by D-C. Why would they ?

James: I agree with the not-for-profit angle - theoretically.  However, when you have a trademark that happens to be (a) one of the world's most recognised brands, and (b) is often abused by others (or used without the owner's permission), often to the brand's detriment, you're likely to wax proprietorial about it.

My itty-bitty one-man business has a trademark (just the name, not the logo). I am a quality freak would-be perfectionist in what I do, and was not happy to discover that another operator in Oz was trading under the same name as I have trademarked - and doing a rather substandard job of similar work (publishing and prepress services).

In my nicest possible manner, I advised that operator that s/he was in breach of my trademark rights, and requested that s/he cease trading under that name. No lawyers or other heavies were necessary, as the operator was simply unaware of my business's existence, and was prepared to abide by my request. However, had there been an argument, I'd have taken the necessary steps to guard my reputation as a top-quality, if niche, service provider.

Other people - hobbyists and the like - also use "my" trademarked term but, as they merely call themselves that as a descriptive, and are not producing work-for-profit with "my" trademarked name on it, I don't care. I don't plan on being dog-in-the-manger about it.

M-B / DB / DC may well have taken a similar approach to the proposed badge, had they been asked for permission to use (any of) the elements of their trademark/s; however, given their history on the issues, it's more likely they'd have declined permission, and we'd have been no better off than now - and perhaps considerably worse off had there been a suit for breach.

Never risk going to court with an adversary who has (relatively) unlimited resources because, right or wrong, big money will usually win the day.  We're all equal under the law: as equal as our bank balances and barristers' bills. (Lawyers on the forum: please excuse my scepticism.   ::) )

I accept that some folk will have problems with the colours, but that's not an issue for me. I live in a multi-coloured old world.   :D
[img width=340 height=138][url="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png"]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png[/url][/img]

James R

Fair enough. I think you're right actually now I think about it. Its a shame we didn't start with this discussion all those months ago though isn't it ? Would have saved ourselves a lot of time. I sense that we'll end up going through the same process all over again until we obtain the necessary consensus to obtain an order big enough for the suppliers to be interested.
1978 450SEL 6.9 - GONE!

1979 450SEL - GONE!

OzBenzHead

Quote from: James R on 22 May 2007, 09:28 AMIts a shame we didn't start with this discussion all those months ago though isn't it ?

We did, but for whatever reason, it stalled or was dismissed. http://forum.w116.org/the-org/grille-badge/msg10714/#msg10714.
[img width=340 height=138][url="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png"]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png[/url][/img]

James R

Indeed. A shame it wasn't resolved at the time.
1978 450SEL 6.9 - GONE!

1979 450SEL - GONE!

robgee

Hi guys maybe I miseed a thread but has anyone asked Mercedes what they think and had a written reply.I would think that given the right intentions and also to inform Benz that not only do our members own this classic model but also other versions of the marque I would think that given the right circumstances and a reasonable explanation that Benz would look upon this reasonably favourably.
Now before i get (no they won't) let me see their written rebuttal to this request.
We can pontificate for ever but lets see what the powers that be may have to see if it were put to them in an enthusiastic way. ::)

oscar

Hi guys.

I wont weigh into the copyright debate but as Robgee suggests, there's only one way to find out.  Ask them!
But I think there's much, much bigger issues then copyright alone.

I'd like to give my point of view regarding this change of design.  Whilst not originally for the voted badge early on, I really grew to like it and voted for it.  I still like it.  I think it looks fantastic.  Anyone that participated in the process wanted something to represent us - Our forum, our group or W116's in general.

Unfortunately, the voted badge doesn't do that.  It's a Mercedes Benz Badge right down to the wreath, the star, the circles and the dots, then had our own touch with w116.org down the bottom.  I love the MB circle and star logo.  In the same way I admire my bonnet badge, so too would I admire the voted badge on my grill.  But it doesn't represent our group.   It's a corporate badge.

Furthermore, not enough interest was shown.  It's dead in the water.  1/10th of the total members here now is required to buy at least one badge.  Back then there was 300 something members and we were around 30 badges with quite a few people doubling up just to see the project move forward.  40 badges is the minimum order though extras probably will be ordered for future purchasers.  Mforcer will be left with the burden of paying for, then promoting the rest of the badges and this new badge will hopefully be more marketable.

Regarding the polls, pages of comments, suggestions and examples.  My biggest fear on embarking on another attempt was disgruntling those that participated in those discussions and like me, have been eager to put something on the grille once and for all.  Faith was placed in polls that to some may seem pointless right now.  I've never been down this road before and I apologise if anyone feels like due process has been tampered with but changes had to be made.  There was no set agenda and the reasoning in the above paragraphs is why the change had to occur. 

I've said this before and I'll repeat; in hindsight, it would've been far easier to throw a picture up and say "there's a box of badges on the way, who wants one?"  Like them or leave them.  I wonder what the response to this latest design would've been.  But, it would've been impossible to know this at the outset and avoided present issues because there was simply no design to begin with.  Macatron suggested the idea very late December last year, Andrew116 started the creative process and I pitched in with the bulk of variations of Andrew116's designs thru lots of ideas being tossed around by members.  Even this new breakout design has gone through 18 major variations, albeit behind closed doors.  If I showed you them, I assure you I'd create further divide as to what preferences would be.   There's 143 different badges with 24 varieties saved in my folder I've been mucking around with for the past 5 months.  More importantly, each of those designs have come from input from the forum.  There would be nothing at all had it not been for the input by members so far.  Criticisms or support have all contributed and is appreciated.

In the end, decisions had to be made.   No money has changed hands that I know of.   It's a take it or leave it affair.   If it falls short again, we'll just try again at a later date.  I just want a badge and I love the car design ;)
1973 350SE, my first & fave

macatron

Styria,  I certainly echo all your appreciative sentiments.  I never thought that my post would generate such a response.  Moreover, I never thought that so many would come through to lend their creative talents to such a project.

For the record, I am very happy with the new design.  I too, had come to anticipate receiving my 2 badges designed as voted but I appreciate the considerations taken in the design heading this thread.  I submitted a couple amateurish designs showing the car and I did so because it represented the car itself and not Mercedes in general - not that my enthusiasm doesn't carry over to other chassis but a badge for this group should be very specific to the car.

I could go on but in the end, I understand that the design is subjective.  However, I want to encourage enthusiasm because I think there is sound logic behind the revision and I appreciate the intent of the artists.