Poll

Choose the  wording

INTERNATIONAL ENTHUSIASTS GROUP
3 (7.9%)
INTERNATIONAL OWNERS GROUP
7 (18.4%)
INT'L W116 OWNERS GROUP
2 (5.3%)
MERCEDES ENTHUSIAST GROUP
3 (7.9%)
W116 ENTHUSIAST GROUP
2 (5.3%)
W116 OWNERS GROUP
4 (10.5%)
don't vote here
0 (0%)
W116.ORG
16 (42.1%)
THE FIRST S-CLASS
1 (2.6%)
W116 S-CLASS
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: 25 February 2007, 02:43 PM

Author Topic: POLL: Wording for grill badge  (Read 9428 times)

OzBenzHead

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
  • Location: Northern NSW, Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grille badge
« Reply #15 on: 27 February 2007, 04:47 AM »
Oscar (and Andrew and others):

(The lid is off the worm can ...)  Scroll to the bottom for the short answer, or read on for the reasoning behind it.   ::)

"Possession" or "possessive case" doesn't necessarily imply simple "ownership" in the common sense of that term; rather, it can imply a whole range of associations: e.g. "the boys' school" is a school for boys, but is not owned by them; "the car's shine" is not possessed by the car, but is a quality of it nonetheless (an inanimate object can't own things); "Reader's Digest" is a digest for the reader, not possessed by her/him; "the dog's owner" does not imply that the dog possesses its owner, but there is an implied association (on the other hand, a cat always possesses its owner!).

So it is, I'm afraid, necessary to have the apostrophe in our "owners' group" - unless we wish to risk the ridicule of pedants (me - a pedant!   ::)   ).  And I assure you, it would happen. One observation I've made over the years is that generally (there are of course exceptions) the level and style of written English on M-B forums is more "aware", more "educated", than the average on forums for commoner marques. I make no value-judgements by that statement, but merely pass on my observations.

Sometimes you'll see no apostrophe in the official name of an organisation: e.g. "Lismore Workers Club" (where in ordinary usage - where one's not referring to an official name - it would certainly be "workers' club" - but that's because organisations, businesses, churches, etc. may spell and punctuate their names as they choose (regardless of traditional or "correct" usage). Most such apostropheless names are, however, the result of ignorance in the first place; they just can't be affordably changed once registered and operational.

Another usage that often leads to confusion is that of "sports coat", "sports car", "sports venue"; these, however, are not "possessives", but rather "sports" in such instances is acting as an adjective: a coat (or car, or venue) of the type "sports". No apostrophe is necessary.

That reasoning cannot be applied, however, to "owners" in the sense we wish to use it, because the "use it adjectivally" (as in the "sports" example above) does not apply to people or people-describing words - into which category falls our "owners".

Confused?

There's rarely a simple, straightforward answer in language usage - and logic, in the sense we understand it - rarely applies; this is, after all, English, the most illogical language in the entire world's collection of 6,000+. It is also the most expressive by far, with a basic lexicon of over 600,000 words (extrapolates to closer to two million when variants are considered); the next richest lexicon is French, with about 150,000. It's because we have more words for expressing finer shades of meaning that we need fewer of them to say the same thing a French or an Italian person would.

Anyway, back to the question at hand: Yes, it does need to be OWNERS' GROUP.
« Last Edit: 27 February 2007, 04:51 AM by OzBenzHead »

OzBenzHead

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
  • Location: Northern NSW, Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #16 on: 27 February 2007, 04:48 AM »
Oh, and I think it would look more balanced if all lettering were to be uppercase; the "org" of the URL is not case-sensitive, so that's irrelevant. W116.ORG would look best, IMO.
« Last Edit: 27 February 2007, 04:52 AM by OzBenzHead »

s class

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,171
  • I'll keep the 116's, the rest can go
  • Location: Squeezing 3 W116's into a double garage
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #17 on: 27 February 2007, 04:53 AM »
I rate languages as one of my secondary hobbies, and I have spent a great many hours over the years studying Latin.  I must state that I concur completely with OzBenzHead.  Goodness, would that we had English teachers like you at school. 

I also am inclined to agree with his last posting, W116.ORG is better looking, and yes, its case insensitive. 

'76 6.9 Euro, '78 6.9 AMG, '80 280SE, '74 350SE, '82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro , '81 500SL

Andrew116

  • Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #18 on: 27 February 2007, 04:57 AM »
OBH... my appologies... a bit of research and I totally agree  ::)
My BAD!  ;D
I am also for the W116.ORG... hope the others feel the same.  ;)
'78 W116 280 SE

oscar

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,043
  • Location: Riverina, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #19 on: 27 February 2007, 04:59 AM »
 :D

Ok, apostrophe's in ;)

regards,
oscar lying blodied and beaten. :D

PS

I just tried www.w116.org and WWW.W116.ORG  No problems getting to the homepage. CAPS ARE IN
1973 350SE, my first & fave

gregdeklerk

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,019
  • Location: Cape Town, South Africa.
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #20 on: 27 February 2007, 05:02 AM »
I was also a Latin student (not by choice) and I agree too. The apostrophe must go in and the upper case gets my vote.

Greg

OzBenzHead

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
  • Location: Northern NSW, Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #21 on: 27 February 2007, 02:30 PM »
Oscar:
Quote
lying blodied and beaten

Not too badly, I hope! I may be the original "grouchy grammarian", but definitely no pugilist!   ;D

Andrew, Ryan, Greg: Thanks for the back-up! Ah, yes, schooldays Latin  (adjectival usage: Latin of the type schooldays):

causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causam (pronounced cows ARM)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causas (pronounced cows ARSE).

 ;D ;D

Ryan:
Quote
would that we had English teachers like you at school. 

I consider myself extraordinarily lucky. 

My (adoptive) mother was a frustrated would-have-been teacher (poor eyesight foiled that ambition). She took out her frustrated ambition on me so that I started school with a reading age four years ahead of my peers. I also - probably through my early reading - developed a love of, and fascination with, language.

My school year group (commencing 1955) was the last in New South Wales to formally be taught traditional grammar (and spelling!); those who followed missed out - and so we've now had two generations of schoolteachers who know little, if anything, about grammar and its quirks. One of the few worthwhile things Bob Carr did for the state when he was Premier was to re-introduce the teaching of grammar. Of course, it will take another two generations of teachers before the 'disadvantaged' ones have all retired.

One of the beauties of understanding the conventions (which is what they are; 'rules' is hardly the appropriate term) is that by so doing, we may then better flout those conventions ('break the rules') for particular effect, and so communicate more effectively.

Dear me - we have wandered far from cars and badges, hain't us!   ;)

WGB

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,280
  • And on the eighth day he made the 116
  • Location: Perth - Western Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #22 on: 27 February 2007, 04:49 PM »
At the risk of starting WW3 - I am also a Formal Grammar Student( I was educated in NZ starting 1957, when formal grammar was still taught) and a Latin Student in secondary school and I still use Latin in everyday life- I have a problem with the position of the apostrophe.

The word "Group " is singular so why is the apostrophe put in the plural position.

Please explain to me why the correct spelling shouldn't be "Owner's Group" instead "Owners' Group".

Bill

OzBenzHead

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
  • Location: Northern NSW, Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #23 on: 27 February 2007, 06:13 PM »
At the risk of starting WW3 ... I have a problem with the position of the apostrophe.

The word "Group " is singular so why is the apostrophe put in the plural position.

Please explain to me why the correct spelling shouldn't be "Owner's Group" instead "Owners' Group".

Bill: It is the owners who are in the "possessive" or genitive case; the number of what they "own" is irrelevant.

Examples:

Bill's car (singular owner, singular "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner, before the "s").

Bill's cars (singular owner, plural "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner, before the "s" - again).

The farmer's cow (singular owner, singular "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner, before the "s").

The farmers' cow (here we have more than one farmer sharing ownership of one cow - perhaps they are a collective) (plural owner, singular "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner [plural], after the "s").

The farmers' cows (plural owner, plural "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner [plural], after the "s").

St Mary's Church = one church of St Mary.

St Mary's churches = multiple churches of St Mary.

The number of items "owned" or "possessed" has no effect on the placement of the apostrophe in the item doing the "possessing".

WGB

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,280
  • And on the eighth day he made the 116
  • Location: Perth - Western Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #24 on: 27 February 2007, 06:14 PM »
OK - I guess the plural is "Owners" so I withdraw my last post and agree with "Owners' Group".

Still doesn't look right though.

Bill

gregdeklerk

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,019
  • Location: Cape Town, South Africa.
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #25 on: 27 February 2007, 09:37 PM »
Oscar:
Quote
lying blodied and beaten

Not too badly, I hope! I may be the original "grouchy grammarian", but definitely no pugilist!   ;D

Andrew, Ryan, Greg: Thanks for the back-up! Ah, yes, schooldays Latin  (adjectival usage: Latin of the type schooldays):

causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causam (pronounced cows ARM)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causas (pronounced cows ARSE).

 ;D ;D


How about the old faithful:

amo
amas
amat
amamus
amatus
amant.

This brings back terrible memories of Caesar conquering the world!!

Greg

OzBenzHead

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
  • Location: Northern NSW, Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #26 on: 27 February 2007, 09:46 PM »
Caesar Britannicum subjugat?  (It's been a long time, so that may well be garbage rather than Latin!)   ::)

s class

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,171
  • I'll keep the 116's, the rest can go
  • Location: Squeezing 3 W116's into a double garage
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #27 on: 27 February 2007, 11:41 PM »
OBH,

I agree with you that the better one's mastery of grammatical conventions and quirks, the more effective the occasional flouting becomes, BUT it requires the readers/recipients to have a modicum of knowledge themselves to appreciate it fully.

I must confess that Latin wasn't foisted on me per se - I volunteered for 4 years of it at high school, and in later years 2 more years at University.  It was kind of a hobby sideline whilst I did my MSc engineering.  The young ladies in the latin class were far more attractive than my hairy engineering comrades.

Ryan

'76 6.9 Euro, '78 6.9 AMG, '80 280SE, '74 350SE, '82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro , '81 500SL

OzBenzHead

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
  • Location: Northern NSW, Australia
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #28 on: 28 February 2007, 01:00 AM »
I agree with you that the better one's mastery of grammatical conventions and quirks, the more effective the occasional flouting becomes, BUT it requires the readers/recipients to have a modicum of knowledge themselves to appreciate it fully.

Ryan:

Agreed, but that "modicum of knowledge" can be - and more often than not, is, I think - intuitive or instinctual, rather than a formalised knowledge: many (most?) readers just somehow know that something non-standard is "wrong", but couldn't specify how. If it catches their attention as the writer intended, it succeeds as a communicative device.

My six years of Latin was voluntary, too, but all at high school. At uni I got into linguistics - the study of language as a phenomenon, rather than learning languages per se. My schoolboy French and Latin are rustier than a bad 116 sill (!); now I'm learning German so I can whisper sweet nothings to my cars in their native tongue.   8)   (Actually, it's so I can better plunder the M-B Archives when I get there!)

BC

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,242
  • Location: Sydney Australia
    • Banjospitz German Spitz
Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
« Reply #29 on: 28 February 2007, 01:31 AM »
My goodness!!! What an erudite and intellectual group of owners!!! Clearly the 116 was NOT designed for the masses!!
How did I get in then?
Regards,
Brian F Crump. BA(Hons), Dip Ed, MA, M Ed, Dip TESOL, MACE. (some might add a few more letters like silly b##### but would they dare do so in the company of this august group?
1979 450SE. Silvergreen/Ivory leather. For sale.
2001 ML320. Titanite Red/Java leather.
2007 CLK350. Cubanite/Pebble Beige Leather.
1993 Silver Spirit II. Dark Oyster/Parchment Leather.