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Community => The ORG => Topic started by: oscar on 11 February 2007, 07:21 PM

Title: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: oscar on 11 February 2007, 07:21 PM
I went back through the grill badge thread and think I got all the suggestions.  let me know if not.

Your instructions-

*Option 1 thru to Option 6 are for the top of the badge
*Option 8 thru to Option 10 are for the bottom of the badge

Choose one from each group.  In other words you have two votes, one for each category. Option 7 has been intentionally left blank to separate the two groups. It has "don't vote here" 
Make me proud of 116 owners, please don't vote for option 7  ;D

13days to poll finish, you may change your mind during the poll up until the end.  Cheers.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Mforcer on 12 February 2007, 02:26 PM
Exactly Koan. If the badge is generic, it may as well just be an 'official' MB badge.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: macatron on 13 February 2007, 09:32 AM
I agree with you on this Oscar.  Space is at a premium on the badge and so any effort to eliminate redundancy is best in my opinion.

BTW, a big thank you to you for all your efforts on the polls!  I've already cast my votes.


Mike


Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Mforcer on 19 February 2007, 10:06 PM
Has everyone that is interested in a badge voted yet? Does everyone realise that they can change their vote at any time depending on the influence of others? ;)
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: gregdeklerk on 20 February 2007, 06:23 AM
Mforcer,

How many registered members does this site have? To carry on with Styria's point - surely there are more people interested in the grille badge?
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: oscar on 20 February 2007, 02:45 PM
There's 336 members according to the index page.

I would guess around less than a third are active perhaps.  Whilst it would be good to get at least 50 orders for the sake of lowering cost, a minimum of 25 is all that is needed.  There's 23 votes on the badge itself, and with a few double orders.  I think we're there. 

I think there's less voters in this poll because the result looks a bit more obvious.

As mforcer said, don't forget if anyone does wish to change their mind, they can, in this poll or the badge poll.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Andrew116 on 23 February 2007, 06:19 AM
As I remember (I might be wrong), aren't there a few members that want more than one? ???
That would mean that more than 25 badges are requested... I guess...
So... that's nice...
I think I'll start working the Corel version for the chosen ones. Just to see what happens. And that, only if I am allowed by the creators of those badges  ;D

Thanks,
Andrew in Romania
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: oscar on 23 February 2007, 06:49 AM
That's true Andrew.  I was going to buy 3, a few others a couple.  In the badge poll, it's encouraging to see 25 individual voters. (minimum order)  It's a bit of reassurance and a sign the project will go ahead. :)


Don't worry about the creators of the badges.  macatron and yourself are the only two to start off original.  All mine are copies of yours mainly.  It's been fun to learn a bit more how to photoshop.  Everything has a different name or procedure to the outdated micrografix pic publisher I used to use adn be familiar with.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Mforcer on 25 February 2007, 02:32 PM
I think we'll easily come up with 25 badges and we can have an official count by poll once the badge design choices are narrowed. We probably should have one more round of voting (we'll make it last 1 week only) once the current polls are closed.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: gregdeklerk on 25 February 2007, 11:05 PM
I think I am in for 2 too. Now all I have to do is find another car!!
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Mforcer on 26 February 2007, 12:08 PM
We have a winner!

INTERNATIONAL OWNERS GROUP
W116.org

Even though I voted for INTERNATIONAL ENTHUSIASTS GROUP :P, I think we can move on to the next stage :) :)
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 26 February 2007, 02:56 PM
We have a winner!

INTERNATIONAL OWNERS GROUP
W116.org

I'm happy with that - though I'd be happier if there were an apostrophe in OWNERS' (plural possessive, so apostrophe after the S, not before it).    ;D  (The pedant strikes again!)

Lack of apostrophe wouldn't stop me from buying and displaying the badge, however.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Mforcer on 26 February 2007, 03:30 PM
We should have the apostrophe if it can be done on the badge. I can't imagine why they couldn't.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: oscar on 27 February 2007, 03:51 AM
We have a winner!



I'm happy with that - though I'd be happier if there were an apostrophe in OWNERS' (plural possessive, so apostrophe after the S, not before it).    ;D  (The pedant strikes again!)

Lack of apostrophe wouldn't stop me from buying and displaying the badge, however.

Yes it's over,
INTERNATIONAL OWNERS GROUP
W116.org

the wording at least, or is it ::)

OzBenzHead, duelling with you on pronunskiation or punktiation and spelling for that matter, would be like picking a fight with Russell Crowe inside a Telephone Exchange, :D
However,

Isn't "OWNERS" merely a plural word representing us as more than one and not representing ownership of the "GROUP".  I would assume the GROUP is a thing or entity not belonging or owned by anything - or the OWNERS GROUP is one entity not requiring an apostrophe.

One more thing, to anyone. Should the "W" in w116.org be capital or not.  Capital looks better IMO but not strictly the address.

EDIT:
I should add the "org" looks better in capitals too although not strictly correct. I'm happy with capitals
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Andrew116 on 27 February 2007, 03:57 AM
Oscar you're right about the apostrophe. It's a Group of Owners and not the Owners of a Group... I guess. ???
About the W... hope we don't need another vote  :o ;D
What does the Admin say?
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grille badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 27 February 2007, 04:47 AM
Oscar (and Andrew and others):

(The lid is off the worm can ...)  Scroll to the bottom for the short answer, or read on for the reasoning behind it.   ::)

"Possession" or "possessive case" doesn't necessarily imply simple "ownership" in the common sense of that term; rather, it can imply a whole range of associations: e.g. "the boys' school" is a school for boys, but is not owned by them; "the car's shine" is not possessed by the car, but is a quality of it nonetheless (an inanimate object can't own things); "Reader's Digest" is a digest for the reader, not possessed by her/him; "the dog's owner" does not imply that the dog possesses its owner, but there is an implied association (on the other hand, a cat always possesses its owner!).

So it is, I'm afraid, necessary to have the apostrophe in our "owners' group" - unless we wish to risk the ridicule of pedants (me - a pedant!   ::)   ).  And I assure you, it would happen. One observation I've made over the years is that generally (there are of course exceptions) the level and style of written English on M-B forums is more "aware", more "educated", than the average on forums for commoner marques. I make no value-judgements by that statement, but merely pass on my observations.

Sometimes you'll see no apostrophe in the official name of an organisation: e.g. "Lismore Workers Club" (where in ordinary usage - where one's not referring to an official name - it would certainly be "workers' club" - but that's because organisations, businesses, churches, etc. may spell and punctuate their names as they choose (regardless of traditional or "correct" usage). Most such apostropheless names are, however, the result of ignorance in the first place; they just can't be affordably changed once registered and operational.

Another usage that often leads to confusion is that of "sports coat", "sports car", "sports venue"; these, however, are not "possessives", but rather "sports" in such instances is acting as an adjective: a coat (or car, or venue) of the type "sports". No apostrophe is necessary.

That reasoning cannot be applied, however, to "owners" in the sense we wish to use it, because the "use it adjectivally" (as in the "sports" example above) does not apply to people or people-describing words - into which category falls our "owners".

Confused?

There's rarely a simple, straightforward answer in language usage - and logic, in the sense we understand it - rarely applies; this is, after all, English, the most illogical language in the entire world's collection of 6,000+. It is also the most expressive by far, with a basic lexicon of over 600,000 words (extrapolates to closer to two million when variants are considered); the next richest lexicon is French, with about 150,000. It's because we have more words for expressing finer shades of meaning that we need fewer of them to say the same thing a French or an Italian person would.

Anyway, back to the question at hand: Yes, it does need to be OWNERS' GROUP.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 27 February 2007, 04:48 AM
Oh, and I think it would look more balanced if all lettering were to be uppercase; the "org" of the URL is not case-sensitive, so that's irrelevant. W116.ORG would look best, IMO.
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: s class on 27 February 2007, 04:53 AM
I rate languages as one of my secondary hobbies, and I have spent a great many hours over the years studying Latin.  I must state that I concur completely with OzBenzHead.  Goodness, would that we had English teachers like you at school. 

I also am inclined to agree with his last posting, W116.ORG is better looking, and yes, its case insensitive. 
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: Andrew116 on 27 February 2007, 04:57 AM
OBH... my appologies... a bit of research and I totally agree  ::)
My BAD!  ;D
I am also for the W116.ORG... hope the others feel the same.  ;)
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: oscar on 27 February 2007, 04:59 AM
 :D

Ok, apostrophe's in ;)

regards,
oscar lying blodied and beaten. :D

PS

I just tried www.w116.org and WWW.W116.ORG  No problems getting to the homepage. CAPS ARE IN
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: gregdeklerk on 27 February 2007, 05:02 AM
I was also a Latin student (not by choice) and I agree too. The apostrophe must go in and the upper case gets my vote.

Greg
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 27 February 2007, 02:30 PM
Oscar:
Quote
lying blodied and beaten

Not too badly, I hope! I may be the original "grouchy grammarian", but definitely no pugilist!   ;D

Andrew, Ryan, Greg: Thanks for the back-up! Ah, yes, schooldays Latin  (adjectival usage: Latin of the type schooldays):

causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causam (pronounced cows ARM)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causas (pronounced cows ARSE).

 ;D ;D

Ryan:
Quote
would that we had English teachers like you at school. 

I consider myself extraordinarily lucky. 

My (adoptive) mother was a frustrated would-have-been teacher (poor eyesight foiled that ambition). She took out her frustrated ambition on me so that I started school with a reading age four years ahead of my peers. I also - probably through my early reading - developed a love of, and fascination with, language.

My school year group (commencing 1955) was the last in New South Wales to formally be taught traditional grammar (and spelling!); those who followed missed out - and so we've now had two generations of schoolteachers who know little, if anything, about grammar and its quirks. One of the few worthwhile things Bob Carr did for the state when he was Premier was to re-introduce the teaching of grammar. Of course, it will take another two generations of teachers before the 'disadvantaged' ones have all retired.

One of the beauties of understanding the conventions (which is what they are; 'rules' is hardly the appropriate term) is that by so doing, we may then better flout those conventions ('break the rules') for particular effect, and so communicate more effectively.

Dear me - we have wandered far from cars and badges, hain't us!   ;)
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: WGB on 27 February 2007, 04:49 PM
At the risk of starting WW3 - I am also a Formal Grammar Student( I was educated in NZ starting 1957, when formal grammar was still taught) and a Latin Student in secondary school and I still use Latin in everyday life- I have a problem with the position of the apostrophe.

The word "Group " is singular so why is the apostrophe put in the plural position.

Please explain to me why the correct spelling shouldn't be "Owner's Group" instead "Owners' Group".

Bill
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 27 February 2007, 06:13 PM
At the risk of starting WW3 ... I have a problem with the position of the apostrophe.

The word "Group " is singular so why is the apostrophe put in the plural position.

Please explain to me why the correct spelling shouldn't be "Owner's Group" instead "Owners' Group".

Bill: It is the owners who are in the "possessive" or genitive case; the number of what they "own" is irrelevant.

Examples:

Bill's car (singular owner, singular "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner, before the "s").

Bill's cars (singular owner, plural "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner, before the "s" - again).

The farmer's cow (singular owner, singular "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner, before the "s").

The farmers' cow (here we have more than one farmer sharing ownership of one cow - perhaps they are a collective) (plural owner, singular "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner [plural], after the "s").

The farmers' cows (plural owner, plural "possessed" item; apostrophe immediately follows the owner [plural], after the "s").

St Mary's Church = one church of St Mary.

St Mary's churches = multiple churches of St Mary.

The number of items "owned" or "possessed" has no effect on the placement of the apostrophe in the item doing the "possessing".
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: WGB on 27 February 2007, 06:14 PM
OK - I guess the plural is "Owners" so I withdraw my last post and agree with "Owners' Group".

Still doesn't look right though.

Bill
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: gregdeklerk on 27 February 2007, 09:37 PM
Oscar:
Quote
lying blodied and beaten

Not too badly, I hope! I may be the original "grouchy grammarian", but definitely no pugilist!   ;D

Andrew, Ryan, Greg: Thanks for the back-up! Ah, yes, schooldays Latin  (adjectival usage: Latin of the type schooldays):

causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causa (pronounced cows ARE)
causam (pronounced cows ARM)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causae (pronounced cows EYE)
causas (pronounced cows ARSE).

 ;D ;D


How about the old faithful:

amo
amas
amat
amamus
amatus
amant.

This brings back terrible memories of Caesar conquering the world!!

Greg
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 27 February 2007, 09:46 PM
Caesar Britannicum subjugat?  (It's been a long time, so that may well be garbage rather than Latin!)   ::)
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: s class on 27 February 2007, 11:41 PM
OBH,

I agree with you that the better one's mastery of grammatical conventions and quirks, the more effective the occasional flouting becomes, BUT it requires the readers/recipients to have a modicum of knowledge themselves to appreciate it fully.

I must confess that Latin wasn't foisted on me per se - I volunteered for 4 years of it at high school, and in later years 2 more years at University.  It was kind of a hobby sideline whilst I did my MSc engineering.  The young ladies in the latin class were far more attractive than my hairy engineering comrades.

Ryan
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 28 February 2007, 01:00 AM
I agree with you that the better one's mastery of grammatical conventions and quirks, the more effective the occasional flouting becomes, BUT it requires the readers/recipients to have a modicum of knowledge themselves to appreciate it fully.

Ryan:

Agreed, but that "modicum of knowledge" can be - and more often than not, is, I think - intuitive or instinctual, rather than a formalised knowledge: many (most?) readers just somehow know that something non-standard is "wrong", but couldn't specify how. If it catches their attention as the writer intended, it succeeds as a communicative device.

My six years of Latin was voluntary, too, but all at high school. At uni I got into linguistics - the study of language as a phenomenon, rather than learning languages per se. My schoolboy French and Latin are rustier than a bad 116 sill (!); now I'm learning German so I can whisper sweet nothings to my cars in their native tongue.   8)   (Actually, it's so I can better plunder the M-B Archives when I get there!)
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: BC on 28 February 2007, 01:31 AM
My goodness!!! What an erudite and intellectual group of owners!!! Clearly the 116 was NOT designed for the masses!!
How did I get in then?
Regards,
Brian F Crump. BA(Hons), Dip Ed, MA, M Ed, Dip TESOL, MACE. (some might add a few more letters like silly b##### but would they dare do so in the company of this august group?
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: s class on 28 February 2007, 01:39 AM
I wish I had a little French and German too.  I think that would be useful.  As with most South Africans of my and prior generations I am fluent in Afrikaans as well, but that has little use outside of South Africa.  I did elementary studies of Zulu, but that did not appeal to me much at all.  The constructs are all completely different to the mediterranean variety.  

Ryan
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: OzBenzHead on 28 February 2007, 02:03 AM
How did I get in then?
Brian F Crump. BA(Hons), Dip Ed, MA, M Ed, Dip TESOL, MACE.

Hee hee hee!    ;D

Very impressive alphabet soup you have there, Brian (but what's a MACE - other than a weapon?). I went TESOLing in China a few years back but, courtesy of a big flash flood, the whole experience was a, er, washout.  I came home half drowned.   :(

Ryan:

Amongst my dictionary library I have an old Juta's Pocket Afrikaans-English / English-Afrikaans Dictionary 2nd edn, 6th impression (but no publication date given). It has a "Union Booksellers (Pty) Ltd, 236, Church Street, Pretoria" sticker inside the cover.

What would be the current "official" dictionary of South African English? I like to collect the various Englishes - well, their dictionaries, anyhow.  I don't see one on the Oxford Web site (thought OUP does cover many non-British Englishes).
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: s class on 28 February 2007, 02:19 AM
I'm not sure about our English.  Back in school, we just used British English dictionaries, but that's probably changed by now.  Juta is still a big publisher of school and tertiary education material. 
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: gregdeklerk on 28 February 2007, 02:49 AM
Brian F Crump. BA(Hons), Dip Ed, MA, M Ed, Dip TESOL, MACE. (some might add a few more letters like silly b##### but would they dare do so in the company of this august group?


My mother said to me when I finished university if you are a good lawyer you will be: BA LLB BMW

Apart from Nutz 635CSi, I have no interest!!

And guys, go easy on the lawyer jokes............
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: WGB on 28 February 2007, 04:53 PM
I have a secret weapon - my wife did German and I get her to decipher what I need to know.

I also have several German friends/patients and they are usually thrilled to provide a translation when she who must be obeyed is stumped.

It means I don't have to learn German and can spend my limited spare time fixing rusty sills etc.


Bill
M.B.Ch.B. Dip.Obst. C.I.M.E
Title: Re: POLL: Wording for grill badge
Post by: gregdeklerk on 01 March 2007, 01:34 AM
Bill - can we call you doc from now on?