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The "Goldilocks" restoration thread

Started by ptashek, 28 March 2014, 07:56 AM

ptashek

Contracting out the job
There's not much to say here, apart from making sure these few key points are covered in a written, legally enforceable contract:

- start date
- payment terms
- warranty terms
- penalties for breach of contract, and legal jurisdiction (e.g if you're doing the job in another country, or state)

Pretty much a typical contract.

In addition to that, you need to agree on who will be sourcing parts for the project. If you have the budget, let the workshop do it. If not, do it yourself and you may save quite a nice chunk of money. Workshops tend to stick to their local, tried and trusted suppliers and generally won't put in the effort to cast a wide net in search of the best deal. Simply put, they don't care about getting you the best deal.

Sourcing parts
This part should be written by Stan (floyd111) :D
Want to collaborate Stan?

If you haven't yet done so, get a subscription to EPC. No excuses, just do it. Learn how to use the thing, inside and out - this is your 99% accurate source of truth. There simply isn't a better one.
It might not be cheap at 75USD/year (or so) but let's be honest - you're about to spend many thousands more, this is peanuts.

This is where all the fun, tears and stress will be for the duration of your project. Fun of searching, tears of dread when invoices start rolling in, and stress because of shady suppliers.
The W116 still is no Ferrari 250 GTO, and the parts market is mostly a buyers market. Bargain a lot, and bargain hard. If you can, buy in bulk. If not, try to buy in as big batches as you can get, or afford.

Who to buy from? Anyone who has the part you need, and is willing to sell below the price you're ready to pay. Official dealers will be (far) more expensive, but more reliable and mostly providing reasonable warranty and return terms.  The web (eBay, Craigslist and similar sites) is your kingdom, but also your risk and hardly ever with any assurances. I've gone a mixed route of working with four tried and tested MB dealers and scouring the web. Dealer choice was also strategic, to an extent: one in the UK, two in Germany and one in Poland. The German folks were great for the most expensive parts, because of pricing, taxes and discounts. The UK folks were great for initial purchases, before the job started - stuff that I then shipped in, on and with the car. The Polish folks are local to the workshop and therefore best for those smaller, ad-hoc purchases. On scouring the web - you are likely to encounter sellers who think W116 parts are made of platinum, and are trying to sell those at 10x the dealer price. Before you commit, always check in other sources of what the reasonable going rate for that part is. Sure, there are those NLA or super-rare parts which show up once in a blue moon, cost 10x their worth and are gone again in seconds. If you have no choice, you have no choice - buy it (but try bargaining first :)).

I'm sure many purists will disagree, and I'm sure many more experienced folks here will too - but I'm of the opinion that unless you have an unlimited budget, it's OK to compromise in certain aspects and not always go OEM. Yes, it may end up being false economy, but as long as you're aware of that and are OK with the risk, don't sweat it. It's the worst kept secret of the automotive industry, that many so called "OEM like" parts are the exact same thing you'd get at a dealer, just without the OEM branding and often for half the price. Do your research, ask around, see what people are using (not just talking about!), what works, what doesn't. If in doubt, buy OEM.

If you're restoring a very high-mileage car, you may compromise on getting used parts from a lower-mileage car instead of buying new. I think that's false economy, but your budget is what sets the bar here. Stick to it, otherwise it'll end up being an unstoppable runaway freight train. If sourcing used parts, get familiar with local breakers in addition to scouring the web.
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

floyd111

"Sourcing parts
This part should be written by Stan (floyd111) :D
Want to collaborate Stan?"

For any new restorer's sake, having a great passion for W116, plus a large disposable income, is highly preferable. O yes, and time.. lots of available time.
If you're gonna attempt a restoration on a human budget, sourcing parts is big issue. The more detailed the resto, the more parts you'll need, the better shape they need to be in.
For amateurs like me among you, let me tell you loudly: There are way more parts in that car than you could ever imagine!

After doing what Ptashek told you to do, make lists..

1. NLA parts that you must have.
These will take longest to find. They should always be on the forefront of your daily searches.
Making hard choices here can cut off a year from your project.

2. A list of all parts that you need to buy new, MB-made
Use the cheapest supplier, send the complete list out to them for availability and price.
When you can, buy the "almost NLA" parts when you can, and/or if you should.. Don't ship yet.
Buy the rest in bulk, and cut a deal. To be done last. Ship together with the "almost NLA parts"

3. A list of all parts that you may buy aftermarket
Study and choose. Buy all from 1 supplier if possible, in one go and ship together.

4. A list of all parts that you can, or must buy second-hand
Learn the reality of wood, vinyl, velour and leather replacements and restorations. Read blogs.

5. Keep a well-updated stock list, combined in a list that includes the first 4 lists.

Sourcing parts is a lifestyle, a mission, that requires enormous amounts of time, detail and persistence.
The savings that can be had can be 75% to 35%, depending on your location.
I am batting for a 50% saving on all items MB-listed under 150 euros
All items that are listed above 150 euros (and there are many) need to be 50-75% cheaper where possible.

Needless to say, that doesn't always work.
Some stuff simply needs to be bought at top dollar. Learning to distinguish among those costly occasions is a matter of study, agendas, disposable income and time.
Every single part on that car has it's own market story/situation. Know each story.

If you immerse yourself in these searches, you'll learn quickly to find the cheapest MB-suppliers of regular stuff.
See http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/reviving-old-topics-overpriced-stealerships-the-best-alternate-sources!/msg120370/#msg120370
Don't think you're the first to find ECS or SJS.  There are way more sources.

Items under 150 euros: Take your cheapest supplier's MB database (anywhere/worldwide) as a benchmark, remove taxes and remove 20%. That is your hard ceiling. Always pay that, or less.

If you only have an hour per day, that's OK, but make it count, and choose an hour that places you 2100 EU time or 2100 USA time EU time. Best for ebay shopping
Sundays must be a parts-search day. Keep time zones in mind, depending on where you are. USA, 12.00-1800, EU, 1200-1800.

Learn to use eBay filters and servers for different results
Always advise sellers to opt out of the Global Shipping Program. It's theft.
If not, don't buy when possible.
Needless to say, buy within your own continent. So many times, shipping savings balance out part savings.
But, that is not a rule at all! Always check.

www.ebay.de: "select Europe only" twice a day:
www.ebay.de : select "germany only". Twice a day
www.ebay.fr.. basically dead. select France only. Once a month
www.ebay.es: select spain only" Once a week.
www.ebay.it: select italy only: twice a month.
www.ebay.uk: results are included in other searches.
www.ebay.com.au: Select Australia only.: once a week.

Alternate sites
I never use Craigslist.
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de :twice a  day
www.gumtree.com.au, once a week
www.marktplaats.nl, once a week
www.2ehands.be, twice a month.

For those extra, desperate searches:
http://sp.olx.com.br
http://allegro.pl/

As far as statistics go, the honesty levels on all of these sites are 99%
(I have not yet bought from the latter 2)
All 200 suppliers on all these websites have sent me the goods as promised.
(Paypal is a costly guarantee in a world where honesty is a 99% given.)
But then again, I do not buy from Craigslist

Exceptions I saw were when I bought an Onkyo amp in Belgium. Not W116 related, and the amp still arrived. (but non functional)
Twice, I was promised an item, but the seller decided to give it to someone else
3 ebay disputes, got paid twice. eBay messed up the 3rd claim. Lost 50usd.
That's the score after some 200 purchases.

Search always in German and English keywords alike.
French , italian and Spanish language offers are very rare. Don't bother unless you're desperate.
Think of the millions of people on the planet, and imagine how many millions of situations any of them non-ebay savvy, non mechanically trained people may advertise stuff they find in basements.
"W116 Transmission governor" may be sold under the MB number-only, or under "vieille piece Mercedes"
The more money a part is worth to you, the more these variable searches matter.

Google photos can be great, and often is a great tool for finding photos quickly, when using regular or strange keywords.
Use it daily.
But, for those hard searches, don't rely on Google photos alone. So many parts are offered/sold without a photo-tag!
Always check the first 10 text/result pages. Memorize and learn to ignore websites that keep popping up, whatever the question was.

I'll pick this matter up again later.

beagle2022

Thankyou gentlemen.  These insights are priceless.  And that is because you have both clearly paid for all the lessons. Thankyou!
Sydney, Australia

ZCarFan

Quote from: ptashek on 03 February 2016, 06:37 PM
Just in from Goldie's last UK owner :)
It ain't Goodwood, but hey, a winner is a winner!



p.s.: Ballymoney is a small town (population ~10.5k) in Northern Ireland.

Ballymoney was Joey Dunlop's home town, correct?

floyd111

#214
I have spoken about background searches before

-You may try sending out mass-emails to W116-related part sellers for parts they were not offering
-Always check the backdrop of photos people use to sell items. There may be stuff hiding in plain sight.
-if anyone sells a NOS part, always ask if they have more.
-Place free ads where you can, offering to buy NOS W116 stuff.
-Make clear you are NOT a trader and explain straight up why and how you decide on prices offered. Offer prices near your "hard ceiling" and stick to them.
-Don't overpay because of convenience or impatience, but only if you are sure it won't pop up again soon.
-Beware of NOS Cosmetic parts. Make sure sellers are trustworthy and always get high-res photos first. Take your time checking photos!
-First time sellers, outside Paypal can be risky. I keep a 500usd ceiling for such purchases, or I won't sleep at night.
You can first order and ship a few small items, and see how it goes, before ordering the bulk of it.
-It's better to lose a retaining-downpayment, then to lose 500usd!
-Sellers that offer a pick-up purchase tend to have less to hide.
-Eastern European Sellers have proven to me to be as reliable as others, be it it seems scarier.-and sometimes slower.

Shipping
When you start a project like this, start well. Do not delay building a shipping infrastrcuture

Postal/courier
-learn about Postal rates in the 5 most likely countries
-Always insist sellers use Postal services where possible.
-Always verify shipping rates offered. Put your foot down and negotiate a refund when rates are lower than expected.
-if you have a company, or a friend with a company, arrange for international pick-up contracts with DHL and TNT. 
Fedex, UPS and others like them only offer useless contracts to the likes of us.

International Cargo
-The same contracts are available for ocean cargo and air cargo. Spend ample time comparing the rates per kilo starting from different countries.
-Compare at least 3 cargo shippers. I have, and find that there can be only 1
-Keep checking shippers'rates. They cheat a lot, the moment people simply order a pickup without a clear quote first.
-Try shipping agents as well. I use them happily.
-Do not use couriers for cargo shipments.
-Always insist shipping companies give you a FINAL price per shipment, door-to-door, including all extra costs and sales taxes over those costs, including clearance fees, EXCLUDING import taxes and sales tax over imports.
Only then can you divide kilos/final price, that will give you a final price-per-kilo rate.
-Cargo, unless items are very large, is of no use, unless you ship over 50KG
-100KG per shipment is the sweet spot. Anything bigger is a bonus, but consider spreading your purchases over 100KG batches when economically viable.

The amount of listings that are out there is enormous.
The problem is that you won't need 99% of what is on offer. Wrong part, or wrong price.
With so many possible keywords, my searches contain internationally identical keywords like W116, A116, 280s, 280se, etc.
"W116" is the most effective keyword, with the maximum of results.
Other words are "mercedes vintage" (outside ebay.de) and "Mercedes rar", "mercedes sammler" for ebay.de
Part numbers get searches like A1163332211, A116 333 22 11, 116 333 22 11, 116 333 2211, 116-333-22-11
On eBay, it's the same thing, but add "mercedes" in front of the numeric.

Once you start searching, the first weeks will be about getting into the rhythm, but most importantly, it a process of checking ALL listings, at least once.
After that, you simply select "newly listed" for each fresh search, cutting future search times per source by 99%

If you thought that eBay tricks were going to solve your parts issues, think again. In general, eBay sucks for this job.
W116 parts are nearly always overpriced beyond belief. Days, weeks can go by without a single hit.
The amount of aftermarket parts is a nuisance, and 99% is listed again and again.
eBay is pretty useless as well, when it comes to parts under 75usd. Shipping costs and sourcing efforts ruin everything.
Naturally, all these realities change when you're looking for aftermarket or used parts. That's where eBay offers much better results.

ptashek

Quote from: ZCarFan on 09 March 2016, 11:15 PM
Ballymoney was Joey Dunlop's home town, correct?

It was indeed. And the best part is, Joey and the previous owner of my car were buddies :)
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

ptashek

LOL, I knew Stan will completely redefine the term "sourcing parts".

However, the recurring theme is that most of this, if not the whole effort, will be governed by your budget, and whether you have one lump of money to throw at the project, or smaller chunks available at more or less regular intervals. But at the end of the day, whether you're using a more sedate approach like mine, or the all-guns-blazing approach of Stan, you need to dedicate a lot of time to the task. You'll regret it if you don't.

Moving onto the next part...

Execution and oversight
As Stan mentioned, make sure to have a regularly updated parts list, and a record of all expenses for the project. I personally have a 10+ tab spreadsheet, and can account for every cent spent. Fail to do that, and you'll be in trouble in no time. Apply common sense :)

Make sure that your contract with the workshop includes a clause on documenting the project - as they say on the web: "pics, or it didn't happen". Photographic documentation is invaluable for such work. Insist on it, and make sure it's produced as the project progresses. Any workshop worth their salt will make documentation during disassembly, just so they can put the car back the same way. I personally have close to a 1000 images for my project, many of which are on this thread. You may ask "why would I need any of that if I don't plan to sell the car anyway?", which brings us to the next point.

Keep your workshop honest - even the most reputable workshop will cut corners if you don't pay attention. That's just the way it is.
So, demand pics, and either get someone to, literally, audit all work done for you at regular intervals, or do it yourself. It gets tricky if your project is out of country, or state. You'll have to find a way.
But don't micromanage, don't hang on the phone or onsite every day, let the folks work too - after all, they're the professionals. Trust, but verify.
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

ptashek

Found the radio-delete cover plate in zebrano recently. It carries no type designation, but that should be easy to swap from the one I have, but would involve some drilling. Something I might not want to do ;)
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

ptashek

Quote from: ptashek on 18 March 2016, 07:38 AM
Found the radio-delete cover plate in zebrano recently. It carries no type designation, but that should be easy to swap from the one I have, but would involve some drilling. Something I might not want to do ;)

Here's how the two blanking plates look like.



1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

ptashek

Then this arrived today...
It's a pity MB doesn't sell these anymore, it's such a useful set to have in reserve.



1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

ptashek

...and there's some news on the restoration front too.



Here's an example of what I mean when saying "trust, but verify" when talking about project execution.
Most of you won't have a problem noticing what's wrong in the two pics below. That bit will need to be done again, properly this time.






Front seats are ready. Colour match is spot-on, considering the surrounding trim has had 37 years to fade. The World Upholstery made covers have a few places where they could be finished with more attention to detail. Nevertheless, they're still a massive improvement over the worn and tired velours.







1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

rumb

Those seats look gorgeous!

Arent those radiator support bars suppose to be black?
'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

ptashek

Quote from: rumb on 31 March 2016, 06:42 PM
Arent those radiator support bars suppose to be black?


Good question, and I don't know for sure. I've never seen these in black, and both my cars had the supports painted in chassis colour.
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

rumb

hmmm,  both mine are black.  But mine are 6.9's.
'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

Greg

My support bars are also black, 1977 280SE built in South Africa...............
W108 280SE  (1970)
W108 280SE  (1971)
W116 280SE  (1977)