Anyone want to get a start in club motorsports and set up a purpose-built W116 club car, let me know.
With my 18 years club motorsports (motorkhana, autocross, rally, sprints and hillclimb) experience, and your car and enthusiasm lets put together a TeamW116 car for the 2008 series (trails to be completed during 2nd half of 2007).
About me: Ian is my name, I race a Mazda RX4 and have been a long time W116 admirer (and owner), and back and the 90's I was s-class register capt. for a few years with the MBCCV, however I could never find anyone who wanted to compete in a W116. Times change, there are lots of younger W116 enthusiasts and many have multiple and parts cars. I still can't build my own W116 racer, however I did compete in a few autocrosses in '98 with a red 450SE while the mazda was off the road and was quite pleased with its dirt-manners.
I'll help you:
Join a car club that will let you put your W116 racer on club permit plates
Get your CAMS level 2S lisence for all events including high-speed events
Prepare your car for the type of motorsports discipline you want to get into
Get entry forms sorted out for events during the year
PM me if interested, I don't bite.
I.
Oh, incidently, I'm not just encouraging W116 use, but any old MB sitting around with a few mods will be usable. TeamW116 just denotes the W116 enthusiasts group (us).
Some ideas for MB race cars from the W116 era:
W114 230.6 with triple 38mm webers and manual box
W123 280 with Holley induction
W126 380SE or 420SE
W116 280S with draw-thru T03 turbo fed by 48mm Weber / manual box
W116 450SE
W108, W116, W114, W123, W126 with non-MB V8 engine (there are a few around)
W108 280SE 3.5
any one else got some cool ideas on chassis and engine combos?
I don't know about racing one myself though I'd love to be part of it somehow like getting lunches or making coffee on race day.
In 2004 and 05 I worked at the Griffith Offroad 500 as an ambo and whilst there's the myriad of custom built sponsored buggies and the pro drivers in Pajeros and Patrols, there's the odd sedan that makes an appearance like the bronze valiant that tails the field every year just having a go. Now that I would try. I know you're not talking offroad but seeing the pics of the old 350se rally car made me think the 280 could be stripped and converted for this once a year event.
Having said that, I've got plenty on my plate this year with a house being built and no disposable income so to speak. It was said in passing a while back that we should have a team w116 for something. Be it drags, rally whatever. I'd be happy to help in someway to see a team start but I don't know how unless it meant cold hard cash.
(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5918/w116rallyc6e953uc4.th.jpg) (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=w116rallyc6e953uc4.jpg)
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4613/140804029mediumpl2.th.jpg) (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=140804029mediumpl2.jpg)
EDIT: I'd happily donate the turd 280se to the cause.
Hi Oscar, I've not done rally or offroading for ages, I'm more into circuit sprints, as I think this is where the MB sedans would excel.... The better cornering and braking capability would offset the slightly lower cubic inch capacity a MB has in relation to similar weighing cars.
I see you're in NSW, there's nothing saying you couldn't come down twice a year with the race-prepped 280SE and compete at Winton, which is near Benalla. Stay the night in Benalla, compete the next day, then get your partner to drive you home.
Something to think about.
I.
QuoteI'd happily donate the turd 280se to the cause.
Ok so it looks like we (might) have a car, thanks to Oscar.... if anyone wants to volunteer with driving its probably best to get a message his way.
I saw these other low-buck MBs on eBay, each of which would get you up and running in the sport, and the best thing, they are all under 500 bux each:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mercedes-Benz-450-sel_W0QQitemZ220115034253QQihZ012QQcategoryZ84600QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mercedes-Benz-450-sel_W0QQitemZ220115034253QQihZ012QQcategoryZ84600QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
or
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mercedes-Benz-230-4dr-sedan-4-speed-manual-1968-1969_W0QQitemZ200111559847QQihZ010QQcategoryZ101895QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mercedes-Benz-230-4dr-sedan-4-speed-manual-1968-1969_W0QQitemZ200111559847QQihZ010QQcategoryZ101895QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
or
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/mercedes-benz-sedan-230-1973-4-sp-full-gas-nth-vic-area_W0QQitemZ150125238364QQihZ005QQcategoryZ135577QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/mercedes-benz-sedan-230-1973-4-sp-full-gas-nth-vic-area_W0QQitemZ150125238364QQihZ005QQcategoryZ135577QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
or
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/MERCEDES-BENZ-280SE-SEDAN-GOING-CHEAP_W0QQitemZ200111690172QQihZ010QQcategoryZ135584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/MERCEDES-BENZ-280SE-SEDAN-GOING-CHEAP_W0QQitemZ200111690172QQihZ010QQcategoryZ135584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
or....
Well anyway we could go all day... I've priced out the thins to get the car on the race track.. all cars will need these items, and most are just common sense:
Fire Extinguisher: $30
Bonnet pins: $30
Sabelt racing harness: $220
Brake pads QFM: $250/set
Tyres: Yokohama Advan A048R (used = $200, new = $1000). A used set, driven properly, will last 1 season, a new set 2-3 seasons.
Helmet: $100 - ? (how much is your head worth?)
Cams Level 2S lisence: $90/yr
Club membership: $50/yr
Club permit registration: $100/yr (approx.)
Stuff you may want to add:
Sports steering wheel: couple hundred $
Race seat: used = $200, new = $350+
Sports exhaust system: $500+
Cold air intake: make it yourself
Boot spoiler: $150 off eBay
Come on people, i seem to be doing most of the talking in this thread...
Ian.
Sorry 13B - my rally days went west with the Lancia.......a few years ago...
Good luck with it - there must be some takers on here?
Regards,
BC
If you were in the UK, I'd be there for you straight away ! Best of luck. Come on you Ozzies, there must be a few of you to go for this ! It'd be great.
QuoteCome on you Ozzies, there must be a few of you to go for this !
James - we are all spread across a country the size of Europe and most of us are nowhere near 13B...Sydney to Melbourne is not quite like a drive from London to Scotland. ;D
Regards,
BC
gosh, i would love to be apart of something this cool! it would be awesome:)
Last comment in this for the moment...
If you're worried about the safety aspects of club motorsports, just remember being in a W116 you're in one of the safest vehicles of all time... if you were about to meet a barricade, I's much rather be in a W116 than, say, a 1978 Ford Escort Mk2 or a Datsun 1600 (510)...
On second thought, I might renig on the 280se. Why? Two reasons - Because there's much better, more suitable cheap w116's out there. If I ever setup a car myself for the purpose of club motorsports, I'd rather a 450 or 350 in a w116 chasis. Secondly, this 280 after being stripped of good bits, one side is destined for mounting on my shed wall like a trophy fish.
You've answered some questions I had 13B on where do I start and I was going to ask you about any weblinks you know of but I found a lot of info on the CAMS website - www.cams.com.au
You're right, there'd be nothing to stop me from crossing the border to Winton or go to Wakefield Park or Eastern Creek for that matter to compete. Seriously, I can't imagine it happening anytime soon but it's one thing I'd like to get into.
A word about clubs. I read a while back how "Greg" on the mbcnsw forum wished for a motorsport club division for MB owners. I might have used the wrong terminology there I don't know but I can see what he's getting at now. Going thru the CAMS site and the requirement that you must join a club to take part, there's surprisingly no MB affiliated clubs. There's Porsche and BMW but no MB. What club are/were you in 13B? If I went alone could I join the Griffith Offroad Club yet compete in non-offroad events? Might be a silly question.
As to your cost list
What about rollbars-how much would they cost? Would you need a suspension upgrade too?
I've noticed Wakefield Park has SPEED OFF THE STREET DAYS. A good way to thrash your street legal car around legally, but apart from the mods you mentioned like racing harness and seats, tyres etc - how stock standard can you stay to compete? Or rather, what do you have to change.
QuoteI'd rather a 450 or 350 in a w116 chasis
There's nothing like the roar of V8 down the front straight with a free flowing twin exhaust system
QuoteYou're right, there'd be nothing to stop me from crossing the border to Winton or go to Wakefield Park or Eastern Creek for that matter to compete.
Much easier to cover those large distances in a large comfortable car like an MB.
QuoteA word about clubs. I read a while back how "Greg" on the mbcnsw forum wished for a motorsport club division for MB owners. I might have used the wrong terminology there I don't know but I can see what he's getting at now. Going thru the CAMS site and the requirement that you must join a club to take part, there's surprisingly no MB affiliated clubs. There's Porsche and BMW but no MB. What club are/were you in 13B?
I tried for 2 years to get a motorsport register happening for the MBCCV, but it repeatedly fell on deaf ears. Not to take anything away from the MBCCV, but in the late 90s they we just too focused on restorations and social events, and had little time/interest in its younger members or people wishing to modify cars. They also recognised this was a shame due to MBs long illustrious history in motorsports but still did nothing.
I used to be with Monash Sporting Car Club before it folded, but while it was invited to plenty of events, they weren't part of the club-plate (CH plate) scheme, so when they finished up I looked around and went with Ford Four Car Club. FFCC sounds like an unlikely club for a Mazda racing W116 enthusiast but I was impressed with a) FFCCs favourable treatment of non-Ford members, b) they are part of the club permit scheme and are not anal about modifying cars, and c) they get invited to a ton of events. I'd have a look at http://www.ffcc.asn.au
But to summarise... to enter events, you need to be a member of a cams affiliated car club, and the same goes for your cams lisence. Club plates, again you need to be a member of a cams affiliated club. You don't need club plates if you wish to trailer your beast to events however I prefer to drive.
QuoteWhat about rollbars-how much would they cost? Would you need a suspension upgrade too?
At the entry level, or just while getting started, I wouldn't bother, but yes a roll cage is a good idea, and will set you back around $2000 and will give your W116 V8 much track-cred before even hitting the tarmac. As for suspension, as long as its in good condition, that will get you started. Scrutineering before each events points out things like worn wheel bearings, tie rod ends, ball joints etc. W116s are already good handling cars compared to other cars of its time (see that Ronin clip on Youtube if you don't believe me) so you should be capable of respectable track finesse without major upgrades. By comparison my RX4 has very ancient suspension design (cart springs out back) so lots was needed to be done to make it handle speeds over 230km/h. I also needed to fit 4 wheel disc brakes.
To put it simply, if I was going out with a stock 450SE rust bucket lucky to hit 180 down the front straight I wouldn't worry about the suspension, but if I had a turbo charged 560SE engine and capable of 250km/h+ in a W116 then I would definately upgrade the suspension, and probably at least the front brakes as well (ie. Brembo them).
Hope this helps,
Ian.
Yes, definitely a great help. Good reading too thanks!!!!
Guys,
All I can say is 'GO FOR IT!", 'cause motror racing is even better than sex!
I started racing my Finnie last year and it's developed into a very competant car. The nice thing about it is that it's loads of fun, a good challenge and something different from the normal pack of Alfas, Minis and Anglias. Sure, it's not the best choice for a racing car, but it winds the springs on the smile dial.
Sorry to bore you guys who've seen these already:
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/aquariusg/Pic007-1.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/aquariusg/Pic107.jpg)
Looks no stranger than my weapon of choice: :)
(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/auctions/DSC_7893sml.jpg)
Gotta love the triple weber setup... I can already see a manual 280S W116 or W126 with a warmed over bored-out twin-cam with a setup like this...
The pic of your Finnie neatly encompasses all that I've said earlier in the thread about the mods to the car, you can see the bonnet retainers, sports seat, low profile tyres, roll cage. Tell you what, aren't bundts the perfect competition wheel at 6.5" wide!???
Can I request more pics of the finnie, including the interior and suspension / undercar pictures?
Ian,
Does the wife know what you are doing with her shopping car? ("Now I wonder where Ian could be? He said that he was only popping out to get a loaf, and that was four hours ago...")
My initiative with the Finnie has inspired a few people to get thier Benz's on the track. A friend of mine is currently building a 280E W114 for the "Historic Cars" series, and someone I met at the track recently is racing his concourse 500SEC W126 in the "Marque and Fine Cars" Series, while he builds an AMG 500SEC replica. And another friend is doing the final touches to his race prepared 190E 2.3-16. I've bought a 300SEL 6.3, which I'm planning to turn into a AMG 6.8 replica, but having bought into an underwear business recently, those plans are going to be somewhat delayed.
The finnie has been largely prepared by my father, who turns 75 this year. He's been involved in motor racing for the last 50 odd years and has raced anything from Ferraris and Maseratis, to Minis (in which he won the national championship in 1970) to his current steed - a 1948 MG Special single seater, which belongs to friend of his. The development of the Finnie has been a pleasure for him over the last two years, as he's never had the opportunity to develop a car in his way. Previously he was either met with budget constraints, or the car belonged to someone else who was unwilling to do the mods.
The Finnie is not that heavily modified. We've skimmed the head and profiled the cam, but otherwise the block is still stock. The front and rear suspension are also stock, but the springs are harder and shorter with Billsteins all round. The front lower control arms have been slotted to give maximum negative camber and we're running two standard anti-roll bars in tandem at the front. The car is also running on semi-slick tyres.
Recently we removed the petrol tank and protection plate and replaced it with a plastic tank in the boot. The battery was also removed from the engine compartment into where the passenger seat was, for better weight distribution. The side windows have all been replaced with polycarbonate, and the end result is that the car weighs about 1200kg - I think that's a 250kg saving on a standard 230S.
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/aquariusg/Pic038.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/aquariusg/Pic039.jpg)
We had the car on a dyno recently and it was giving 80bhp on the back wheels, which the clever chaps in the know recon is an engine output of 115bhp. I understand that some of the well prepared Alfa's are giving about 88bhp on the back wheels. So she's no fire breather, but what the car lacks in power, it makes up in handling. The car handles incredibly well and is so well balanced that I'm able to do all my overtaking under braking. I can brake significanlty later than a lot of cars, even the far lighter cars. The downside is that they pull away out of the corners far more easily, which is where their lightness shows. My father has pointed out that while other guys spend a lot of time and effort replacing their rubber bushes on their suspensions, the Finnie has a full steel suspension, except for the rubber subframe mountings.
When the car was out on the track for the first time, is caused a lot of laughs, but through developement over the last year, it's starting to raise some eyebrows!
These bottom two pics were taken when I was reassembling the car after it's respray, so the loose wires have subsequently all been properly tied up:
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/aquariusg/Pic118.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/aquariusg/Pic116.jpg)
BUGGA!!!!
Pity you're not in South Australia, there are a few of us here that want to do just this.....BUGGA!!!!
No worries, Bandolero. Why don't you organise some sponsorship to ship me and the car over to OZ, and then you can share it with me in a local race or two?
:o :o :o :o
Quote from: Bandolero on 30 May 2007, 07:58 AM
:o :o :o :o
:D :D
I think that's a resounding yes.
Quote from: Grant V on 30 May 2007, 12:44 AM
Sorry to bore you guys who've seen these already:
We've never seen it in this much detail have we? Very nice setup Grant. I think the problem I'd have is to know how much trim to take off a w116 to keep it looking like a w116. It'd be sacreligious to go racing with the bumpers on board. Yet when I see your pic of the finnie, the front without bumper reminds me so much of the Waxenberger 6.3. I'd really like to strip a 116 back to have the bare essentials though and have it strictly for racing and not have it road registered.
On the other hand, 13B, I don't know how you can race hard without worrying your going to damage all that trim. I could trust myself to not hit anything stationary, (probably because I'd be driving to slow) :D , but you can't control other competitors. The Mazda looks very straight, do you do much damage on raceday? How about you Grant? Much bodywork after raceday?
Oscar,
Removing the bumpers was more a weight saving tactic than anything else. The front and rear bumpers on a Finnie weigh 50kg alone! I also think that it gives the car a nice aggressive stance and it looks more like a racing car.
I have still tried to keep the car looking as stock as possible. I have retained the chrome beadings around the windows, as well as the dashboard and the original inner door panels. I have also kept the glass quater lites on the front and rear doors. If I was really into weight saving, then the side windows should be complete one piece polycarbonate and the inner door panels would be aluminium sheets. But then the car wouldn't look quite the same.
Most of the competitors in our local historic racing are well over 40 years of age and many of them are real old grey haired buggers, so the testosterone levels are somewhat lower. These guys are all enthusiasts out to have fun and are not that competitive. They have all put a lot of work into their cars and understand the value of their cars, so in a tight situation, guys would rather back off and loose a place or two than run the risk of damaging theirs, or others cars. Besides that, the organisers usually have a very low tolerance of reckless driving, and anyone who does so will hauled over the coals after the race.
QuoteThe Mazda looks very straight, do you do much damage on raceday?
Never any. I've never had a big stack or even hit someone elses car... there have been a few close calls, but if you are regularly damaging the car then its either really badly set up or you are just trying too hard and probably need to do a racing driving course to understand racing lines, braking markers, evasive manouvers etc. The Mazda is very straight, it was bought off the proverbial 'old bloke' and had no rust and perfectly straight chassis rails - important things when building a predictable handling racer.
QuoteI don't know how you can race hard without worrying your going to damage all that trim.
It would apear Grant and I are very similarly minded. I don't see the point in competing in an RX4 station wagon if i still didn't look like one, so as many of the chrome and stainless steel fittings remain. Lucky for me the bumpers are on 15kg each. Under the bonnet and inside and under the car however its all business. My numbers stack up as follows: stock RX4 weighs 1200kg but I've managed to ditch about 100kg due to the gutted interior, alloy door trims, etc., the engine produces 232HP at the back wheels at 8500rpm but its been built to rev to 10500, so maybe 250HP is closer to its output (our dyno guy won't put it past 8500 for legal reasons) but here is a vid of it on the dyno: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJB6tFzmjac
Just like your finnie, I've kept the stock speedo which reads to 130mph and regularly goes past that so maybe a 140 or 150mph speedo is something I need. Likewise, the stock 8000rpm mazda tacho is still in place and so for many straights (like at Phillip Island GP circuit and Sandown) the needle just points at 'Made in Japan'. Here is another short crappy vid of me going thru the esses at Winton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piVjrLxe8SI
If I were building a W116 I'd built it along the same lines as your finnie or my mazda... keep the 'look' as much as possible but shed as much weight and got the HP into the workable range (250-300HP for a 1500kg car). I think he bumpers would stay, as well as the bumperettes... bugger the weight penalty.
I.
Here's some pictures from back in the day (1998) when I tried to autocross a 450SE:
(finally found the pics so they are scanned - shot with Kodak Max ISO400 shutter speed 1/500th/F1.8 )
(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%20366.jpg)
(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%20367.jpg)
(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%20368.jpg)
(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%20369.jpg)
(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%20370.jpg)
(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%20371.jpg)
Ian.
At around a million km it started using equal quantities of petrol and oil so we put a bullet in its head...
I.
;D Top Stuff 13B. See, red does make 'em go faster. Now where's our team
How about this one? Bloody commodores!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hjMT78sYaz8 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hjMT78sYaz8)
Ok... considering ol' smokey's interior is destined for the trash and i've already begun removing it..
After seeing the above pics of grant's car it's given me inspiration to rip the guts out and prep it for wakefield.
Only thing is i'll then need an engine for it.
The body itself is all sweet except for a bit of a rust hole in the firewall of the engine bay. (which probably isn't the best for the racetrack)...though...considering the engine is getting ripped out and turfed i'm sure there'll be room to fix it before dropping another engine in?!
Any suggestions?? Maybe an RB26 from a GT-R? ;D
Quote from: SELfor50 on 10 September 2007, 05:12 AM
Any suggestions?? Maybe an RB26 from a GT-R? ;D
If nissan takes your fancy, go an 8 http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=266156&postid=2886164 (http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=266156&postid=2886164)
Quote from: oscar on 10 September 2007, 05:27 AM
Quote from: SELfor50 on 10 September 2007, 05:12 AM
Any suggestions?? Maybe an RB26 from a GT-R? ;D
If nissan takes your fancy, go an 8 http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=266156&postid=2886164 (http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=266156&postid=2886164)
That's DOPE!!! Regardless of how much i'd love to do that, i'm looking for something that will be easier to drop and (definition of 'easy' being no cutting of the body in order to fit it. RB26 - Twin Turbo i would imagine would fit pretty easy and produce a massive amount of power!! From what i've heard you can get front cut GT-R's for not that much from an importer...though i haven't looked into it properly of course.
After not being able to sleep for the last 2 nights with this on my mind(i shit you not, i have laid awake till 2am each morning considering it) - i've finally come to this decision.
I'm gonna donate ol' silver to the race-track. :o
After speaking to a mate at work who races his peugot 405 at the below hill climb event everymonth he's talked me into it.
I'm gonna start with this and then piece by piece work my way to full track racing etc. After i've seen what the hill-climb is like, i'll then make my decision to take her to full track build..eg. ripping the guts out and putting in a cage etc.
http://www.sdmahillclimb.com/ (http://www.sdmahillclimb.com/)
Now..... If there's anyone who's willing to offer their assitance with this project, it would be more than appreciated.
The event allows more than 1 driver per car and you each get 1 hot lap that is timed properly / record kept etc - and throughout the day each driver will get between 4-8 hot laps. (per event that is). If there is more than 1 driver per car the laps aren't minimised, each driver gets the same number of hot-laps.
If you are willing to offer your time / assistance with helping ol' silver round up a few more horsies - then you're welcome to jump on the track with her as well.
I've also got ol' smokey that is still being stripped for as many spare parts that i can get.
On Friday i will be looking at a Blue(silver blue) 450 SE (AUS Spec) that a friend of a friend has.
It's been sittin in his back yard for the last 12months, apparently has immaculate paint / interior and was owned by an elderly couple previously.
Haven't seen it yet but my mate reckons it's the goods, so if it is - that will become my weekend cruiser making it easier to transfer ol' silver to the track.
Cam,
I spoke to your mate at ASV parts and he's quoted me some pretty, pretty, pretty goooood prices on a Re-conditioned gearbox & diff.
I'm sure the ol' girl probably doesn't really need it done but if i'm puttin her on the track, i'd like to have it done.
MForcer - any chance we can look at getting some W116.Org stickers done up for sponsorship / advertising.
Anyone else who has a business, or know's of a business that would wanna write off some tax dollars for advertising / sponsorship purposes - it would be un-real!! I've already put the word out to a few mates running businesses.
So i guess the final question is - who the hell's with me?? 8)