LosCreepers' 1974 W116 280SE > Bleeding problems...

[Beastie]

It looks good. I'm a fan of the poverty spec six cylinders! The fact that it has a manual transmission is very cool.

It's a shame it's already giving you some problems.



Hopefully once this current issue with the transmission is fixed it will be a bit more reliable for you.

If your plan is to do all the work on it yourself, this forum should definitely prove to be a good resource.

[oversize]

For inspiration:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=279131395529151&set=o.40038665900&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

[Tony66_au]

The thing with Old Mercedes is this,

If the car has been maintained by an enthusiast then you are generally ok for a while re faults and issues but you have to go easy with them until you are used to it and it is used to you.

If you drive them hard, Hard launches/acceleration etc then things like the flex discs (MB's answer to the universal joint) will fail with spectacular results.

These cars just celebrated their 40th birthday and although they are not hugely complex they can be a bit touchy is hammered.

The saying goes "There is nothing as expensive as a cheap Mercedes" and this maxim holds true with every Mercedes I have owned including my W126 and W124's but once "Sorted" they are a trouble free pleasure to own and drive.

Id suggest a thorough inspection underneath and some familiarisation with the model, This site also has an great resource library and a huge number of very helpful and experienced members who will sort your issue 9/10 times if you describe the issue correctly and include photos etc and we can even supply you with contacts for reputable, cheap parts suppliers should you not know any.

And as most of us have owned more than 1 Mercedes we have  pretty much seen any issue before and we know the repairs and tricks needed to effect a solution.

Good luck!

Tony

[LosCreepers]

If your plan is to do all the work on it yourself, this forum should definitely prove to be a good resource.

That is the plan and that is exactly why I signed up to this W116 forum in the first place! I would like to learn everything, please teach me! 

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=279131395529151&set=o.40038665900&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

I really hate the general look of that car, the wheels make it look like a pimp-mobile / donk.  The height looks good though! I don't think I will be able to achieve this by cutting the springs though, needs some serious airbagging to reach the ground like this.

If my ATS wheels will give my car a donk look as well, I'll stick with the original steels + hubcaps!

The saying goes "There is nothing as expensive as a cheap Mercedes" and this maxim holds true with every Mercedes I have owned including my W126 and W124's but once "Sorted" they are a trouble free pleasure to own and drive.

Id suggest a thorough inspection underneath and some familiarisation with the model, This site also has an great resource library and a huge number of very helpful and experienced members who will sort your issue 9/10 times if you describe the issue correctly and include photos etc and we can even supply you with contacts for reputable, cheap parts suppliers should you not know any.

Thanks Tony. I bought the car with complete documentation from day 1 until the day I bought it. It was a very frequent driver until '91-'92, covering about 230k km in its first 18 years. In the 20 years after this, it did the remaining 21k km. In the first 230k it was always serviced by Mercedes, but the last 20 years not a lot has happened to the car, i think. It is time someone gives the W116 some TLC, I guess this will be me.

I will try to post up my problems/issues and will include pictures with it as well.

[LosCreepers]

Alright, was not really looking forward to it, but started anyways. The car lift we have is not really made for taking out the transmission, we normally do lowering jobs, brakes, wheels on it. The 2500kg lift is fine for what we do with, but for work like this, not so much...



I ordered a new clutch + thrust bearing, should arrive beginning of next week. To install the clutch, the transmission has to come loose. We struggled a bit taking off the tailshaft, the nuts near the bearing in the middle of the tailshaft were not coming loose.



Can anyone tell me what the colored markings are for on the tailshaft? How can I see if the 'bearing of the tailshaft' (don't know the correct term + can't find it on the web!) is still in good shape? The rubber that is covering the splines is torn, is the dealer the only place where I can buy a new one? If I take the two parts of the tailshaft apart to replace this rubber, how can I make sure the tailshaft stays balanced?



The flex discs are not in top condition anymore, I guess I have to replace these as well...





I took off all the linkages of the transmission, the rear of the gearbox is leaning against a wooden block on the lift. I have to take off the starter, all the bolts that connect the engine to the gearbox and the clutch slave cylinder? Can I take off the clutch slave cylinder and just leave it hanging so I don't have to bleed it? I took off the speedometer cable as well, am I missing anything else?

Can I take off the gearbox without supporting the engine? In other words, is the engine completely hanging in its own mounts? I will be working on it again tomorrow, any tips and tricks? (:



The yellow headlights, a nice original French touch. I like 'em!



New parts, new discs all around, spark plugs, filters. I will install the brakes tomorrow, after taking out the gearbox. I have to wait for the new clutch to arrive anyway, so I might as well do the brakes while it's in the air.

Thanks guys!

[oversize]

Hmmm.  I seem to remember removing autos with the engine just supported on it's own 2 mounts.  Thinking about that now it's not such a good idea!  If you remove the trans mount the back of it will drop down, allowing much easier access to the top bellhousing bolts.  I'd use some extra support for the back of the engine, as you don't want to break your engine mounts, or have the fan blades damaging your radiator shroud, as the front of the engine tilts upward.  I used some very long extentions to make the job easier.

You need a real big open spanner on the centre nut and I'd use one in conjunction with a long lever on the coupling flanges to loosen the nut.  I think it's a reverse thread??  I have a missing boot over one of my splines and was wondering about the part number and if it's still available seperately....  Yes you have to be very carefull re tailshaft balance and I'd take your time to mark it so there's no doubt about its original position.

New couplings are nice but I've seen worse; you could spend your money on something else if your happy to replace them down the track.

Great collection of new parts!  She'll drive like a dream in no time!

[s class]

To maintain balance of the shaft, just make sure that if you separate the two halves, you mark the splines so they can go back in the same position.

You can remove the tranny off the back of the engine.  Just lower the rear of the tranny, and tilt the engine back.  To do this you need to remove the engine dampers next to the engine mounts, disconnect the top radiator hose (it won't be long enough otherwise), and disconnect the throttle linkage between the firewall and the engine. 

Good luck..

[LosCreepers]

Continued with the works. Needed some help taking off the gearbox, so started doing the front brakes.

Degreased and cleaned everything.



Taking off disc was easy, just put the old disc in a vise and take off the bolts. To get the new discs on, I used the wheel bolts to hold the new disc in the vise without damaging it.



Everything ready for some new grease!





New brake pads and the new setup is good to go. The rear brakes will be done next week I think.




Okay, so I got some friends to help me with the gearbox. Because of the lift we were not really looking forward to taking it out. The exhaust could not be removed, as it was going to be stuck between lift and car. The lift is not high enough to stand under it, so we had to kneel under the lift to wiggle the gearbox out between the lift, bottom of the car and the exhaust. Damn.

I loosened the clutch slave cylinder, does anyone have a parts number of the gasket between cylinder and gearbox?



I already took out some of the bolts of the gearbox, but as my assistants were holding the gearbox, I took out the rest of them.



While taking out the gearbox, the clutch slave cylinder died as it was stuck between car and gearbox...



Gearbox on the ground, a little greasy on the inside, have to check where this oil comes from...





Thrust bearing was in nice condition, we took off the clutch to check its condition as well. You can see they are used, but nothing was broken or in really bad condition. This did not cause the rattle.





We went back to check the gearbox. The 'prise-as' (I have no idea what it's called in English, the shaft coming from the engine into the gearbox) was able to move a few mm sideways. If the 'prise-as' was turned, the tailshaft was not moving immediately, there was a slight delay and a hearable 'click'. I haven't checked the amount of oil left in the gearbox and see if there is a lot of metal shavings in the oil. I will check this later...

So, what to do now?
Complete overhaul of my current gearbox? Search for a manual 5-speed gearbox? Get a manual 4-speed including tailshaft and diff?

Buh.
Buy an old Mercedes, they said. I will be fun, they said.

[gavin116]

Hi Reinoud

Looks like you have a very nice car there, but as with all things mechanical...  I suspect part of your problem with the clutch/gearbox has to do with the fact that this car done some serious towing.  That extra brake booster under the bonnet implies that this car was a real workhorse pulling a heavy trailer, and that isn't always good for a clutch and gearbox.  My 450SE also had a tow-bar when I bought it, but I suspect with fuel consumption at 6/7 km/lt unladen, it didn't tow very much, very far! (Mine's also 737 classic white.)

I'm sure there will be answer on the horizon soon, be it a second hand gearbox or a reconditioned one.  Ek dink die naam van 'n prise-as in Engels is 'n "drive shaft".

Keep your chin up, we all know you'll get great enjoyment from the car yet.

Gavin

P.S. Where about are you in The Netherlands?

[LosCreepers]

Looks like you have a very nice car there, but as with all things mechanical...  I suspect part of your problem with the clutch/gearbox has to do with the fact that this car done some serious towing.  That extra brake booster under the bonnet implies that this car was a real workhorse pulling a heavy trailer, and that isn't always good for a clutch and gearbox.  My 450SE also had a tow-bar when I bought it, but I suspect with fuel consumption at 6/7 km/lt unladen, it didn't tow very much, very far! (Mine's also 737 classic white.)

I haven't really thought of it like this, I think you're right about the heavy towing.
It's a shame that it worked out just fine for the car in his first 251000km and the 1st 1000 I'm driving it, it dies... 

Ek dink die naam van 'n prise-as in Engels is 'n "drive shaft".

Drive shaft could be right, I looked it up and it said input shaft. Same thing, different name?
Your Dutch sounds a little South African to me.. 

P.S. Where about are you in The Netherlands?

I live in Rotterdam, why? 

I'm sure there will be answer on the horizon soon, be it a second hand gearbox or a reconditioned one.

Well, I called a lot of spare Mercedes parts dealers today, but none of them has a correct 5spd manual gearbox.
I found one guy that has a five speed gearbox, but he is not sure if this will fit my car.
As I compare the pictures of the two gearboxes, only the bellhousing has some small differences.



Above is the one for sale, below is mine.



The code on the side of the gearbox is 117 261 14 01 and is the same on both gearboxes.
Can anyone confirm I'm on the right track or is this just the general casing of all M110 suitable gearboxes?

[zook]

i'll trade you? your 5spd for my 4spd? haha

good luck, very interested to see how you go with this

[Tony66_au]

Input shaft is correct gents and although my Dutch is rusty as hell this is what its name is in English.

Id definitely get that Pressure plate machined (The big disc hanging off the back of the crank shaft) as it has had a hard life and those spots of blue on the disc are far more than id expect to see on a car of this type and so id concur with it having had a hard life.

[oversize]

I'd be looking real hard at that clutch before you start pulling the box to bits....

[LosCreepers]

i'll trade you? your 5spd for my 4spd? haha

good luck, very interested to see how you go with this

Haha, thanks but no thanks. 
If I find a 'new' 5spd, my current 5spd will be for sale for a handy mechanic who wants to overhaul it himself. 

Input shaft is correct gents and although my Dutch is rusty as hell this is what its name is in English.

Id definitely get that Pressure plate machined (The big disc hanging off the back of the crank shaft) as it has had a hard life and those spots of blue on the disc are far more than id expect to see on a car of this type and so id concur with it having had a hard life.

Yeah, I already figured the pressure plate needs some work. If the flywheel is off I might as well replace the crankshaft bearing, right?

I'd be looking real hard at that clutch before you start pulling the box to bits....

I will take some new/better pictures of the clutch, but it isn't that rough as it appears in the picture. It's not good either (I will replace it anyway) but nothing points to a rattling sounds that started all of a sudden. Like a bearing that is f00ked or a clutch spring that came loose...

[LosCreepers]

So, with a little help of Gavin (thanks again!) I got in touch with Joe from MBClassic.net. He was able to help me out with some part numbers for different gearboxes. I might have found a 5spd gearbox that will fit my gearbox, the bell housing can be changed onto the new gearbox. I found out that a 5spd gearbox is a little longer than a 4spd and the selector forks of the 4spd are all facing upwards and on the 5spd the middle selector fork (5th / reverse) is facing downwards. The gearbox I found also has the middle selector fork facing downwards, so it should be the right one for my car.

Right now I really want my car to be back on the road as soon as possible, so I will be placing this gearbox and after that I will check out my own. I will replace the clutch and thrust bearing when replacing the gearbox. I made an appointment to drop off my flywheel so it can be machined again to start with a fresh surface for the new clutch.

I took some pictures of the used clutch and clutch plate. As you can see below the clutch plate is worn, but the springs are intact, the splines in the center are still in good condition. I think the blueish colour on the clutch is because of excessive heat. The diaphragm springs are in good condition. Overall not in a perfect shape, I will replace them, but none of this will cause the rattling sound that happened all of a sudden.









This is the inside of my gearbox, any idea where the black sludge comes from? Input shaft seal? Crank shaft seal? Easy to replace?