I saw the 6.9 and I DROVE it! - should I buy?

[s class]

Well this morning I met with the seller of the 6.9 I spotted here in South Africa.  I am considering purchasing it and would like some advice. 

ENGINE

Good : engine bay looked very clean, no fluid leaks.  Engine had good torque.  No starting problems, hot or cold.  Absolutely no oil smoke, either on hard acceleration in 2nd gear, or on the overrun in 2nd geat ar 4500rpm down a long hill.  I was impressed.  Temperature was perfectly well behaved. 

Bad : idles a bit rough.  At speed I thought that maybe one cylinder isn't firing so well.  I wouldnt go so far as to say that it was misfiring, just I felt that the 8 cylinders were not delivering equally.  OK the owner admits the car is hardly ever driven.  Upper radiator hose feels 'crunchy' - the hose is OK but there must be scaling inside.

Unsure : the valve covers have had the paint stripped off.  Why?  owner claims no engine work done.  Mileage is indicated as 146000km, but apparently the guage wasn't working for a while. 

DRIVETRAIN

Good : no play or slap anywhere in the drivetrain, no noises.  Diff seemed excellent.  gearchanges good, kichdowns very very smooth (but no flare)

Bad : lots of weeping and 'crud' on the diff.  The usual leakage from the torque converter radial seal, though not too bad.  Gearchanges were a little rough when cold, but it cleared as the car warmed up

SUSPENSION

GOOD : Apparently all 5 spheres were replaced last year.  There was no 'boat' wallowyness at all.  Passes styria's shopping mall speed bump test on all 4 corners.  Good stability under hard braking with no pull to the side.

BRAKES :

GOOD : clean, secure, staight stopping

BAD : shudder from front rotors

INTERIOR :

GOOD : no major problems.  sunroof, electric windows all work.  Manual climate control

BAD : A/c and cruise control not working.  Dashboard has 2 splits, seats are blue MB tex.  They are in acceptable condition but I list this as a 'bad' from my perspective because I strongly prefer leather (you may disagree but thats your perogative)

BODYWORK

GOOD : appears free from accident

BAD : a number of rust spots (see photos below).  I noted particularly both jacking points on the left side, the lower edge of the inner wheel well on the right rear, both front corners of the sunroof (the lid itself, not the body).  Surprisingly, no rust in the battery area or arround the windehields.  rear wells in the trunk also surprisingly clean.

SUMMARY : the rust worries me but it's not that bad in the global scheme of things.  Plus the car needs a respray - the paint looks at least 10 years old, and thats a good point because it reduces the chances I might later find hidden rust surprises.  Mechanically the car seems fine.  bottom end torque is ENORMOUS, but the power in the midband was not as amazing as I expected.  Not as strong as my W140 S500.  The rough running may not be anything serious, but I worried that what if there is an issue with one of the cylinders, or pistons?  But if the oil consumption is OK, and the exhaust looked very clean, maybe its fine.  Perhaps I could persuade the owner to consent to a compression check. 

The asking price is about the equivalent of US$11,500.  I think it is too high by international standards, but then we come back to the fact that there are only a handful in this country, so I don't have too many options. 

Photo 1 :
Please excuse the mobile phone pictures.

Photo 2 :

Rust in left rear jacking point.

Photo 3 :

Rust just above the left rear jacking point

Photo 4 :


Photo 5 :

THis area is actually worse than it looks because the underside is dented in in this area too.

The other rust on the car was far less serious.  The photos show the worst of it.

Any suggestions?  Ryan in South Africa. 

[s class]

styria,

Thanks, I really appreciate your comments.  And no I don't mind a little cold water - I appreciate candid comments from the more knowledgable.

Yes we do drive on the left hand side of the road, so left hookers are restricted to private imports over the years.  This is an ex-europe car and hence LHD. the powers that be no longer allow importing left hookers, but those that are already here are allowed to remain here.  FWIW my dad has a LHD R107 500SL and a LHD R129 500SL here in South Africa.

Bodywork and respray is not a problem.  I have always done such work myself as a sideline.  I feel quite capable of doing the required work myself - the only discouraging part being the amount of time required.  Most of the required metal is readily available from local 280SE's in a rust free condition, but the outer sills are a concern since this is LWB, and they don't exist in this country normally, so those parts would be new and probably very expensive.  What worries me more is the general state of denting and damaging around the left front jacking point.  I feel sure that cutting away the outer sill would reveal a whole host of horrors.  The floor boards in that area looked OK though from inside and outside. 

Yes the seller wants "huge" money, but the problem is that here the car is percieved as a scarce rarity and so the seller thinks the price is reasonable.  I am aware of three 6.9's in this country.  THis one, a really poor one in a coastal area that even 10 years ago when I first saw it had loads of rust, the third is an excellent one that sold 5 years ago to its current owner for about US$10,000. 

I would not say the idling was poor when hot - it was the same as when cold - just a bit lumpy and uneven.  I noticed in the car a recent invoice for "cleaning 8 injectors".  I guess this means someone is aware that there is an issue and is trying to do something about it. 

I would say the rear end leaking is from the pinion seal, and its been like that for a long time by the looks of things. 

from what I understand from the seller, he is intending to emigrate at the end of the year.  So he doesn't think he's under pressure to sell yet, but that may change in a few months time.  I would still consider this car, and especially if he dropped to say US$7500 I would be interested. 

My question to you is this - how much would I pay in Australia for a 6.9 that does not have such serious rust troubles, and has a clean bill of health on the engine?  I don;t expect concourse condition, just a solid startnig point that can be sorted for sensible money. 

I am becoming increasingly serious about buying a 6.9.  I was hoping to achieve this goal for US$14,000 to 15,000.  I would need half of that to cover shipping and taxes etc from Australia.  Would the remaining US$7,000 to 8,000 buy anything useful?

[Des]

I like to keep an eye on the 6.9 used market here, from my own observations anything here under $10,000 is going to need a few thousand spent on it, suspension issues, and general lack of care and maintenance. $12,000 - $16,000 should land you a nice one owner car with service history and minimal to no work required.

[oscar]

Hi s class

Rarity aside, the money's way too much.  Not saying don't buy it, it's just overpriced IMO. Like styria says, 5k is more like it for one in that condition.  Most of it sounds pretty good except the rust.  I didn't think it would look that bad. 

Have you seen these repair shots on the jack points, rockers and arches before?
http://gallery.w116.org/v/garage/Repairs1/?g2_enterAlbum=1
http://gallery.w116.org/v/garage/Repairs2/?g2_enterAlbum=1
There's a couple of pages in each and I don't know who posted them but they give a good indication of what you might find behind those rusty points and also how to achieve a fix. Inspiring stuff.

I wouldn't have thought I'd end up competing with a SA'n for a 6.9, but since I'm out for the moment have you tried
http://www.carpoint.com.au/
http://www.carsales.com.au/
They'll give an idea of what the asking price is here.  Just don't take any Mind you, there's only 1 or 2 at the moment.  I suppose ebay.us would give some indication too of what the market's doing but I don't watch it.

There's a price for everything, I'd hold out till he has to sell.  $11.5k US would get you a very good drive-away,-no-more-to-pay 6.9 here with the only things to be done noticed by the fastidious.

[nathan]

Hi S Class,
   as most of us arent springboks, we cant really comment on that sort of price in your couintry....however, that seems like a hell of a lot for an average example, and a LHD too!!  if you have riust in those spots, it will be just the tip of the iceberg...remove all front drivers mats, base of rear window under chrome trim at window bases on side doors...id think there wouold be a heck of a lot more and if you paid that amount of money, youd be pretty ticked off to have to dump a lot more in...
   your SL sounds really nice and i dont think this would be the car to make you happy to replace it...
   what is the scene on importing cars into SA now?? here in perth, west australia, we have a lot of SA imports such as 123s and even the odd G wagen.  if you dropped 11kUS here, youd get a very nice car.  might be a consideration?
all the best on your search.
nathan

[s class]

Oscar,

Thanks for those links.  I suspect that the situation would be at least that bad on this 6.9.  Its a shame really.  The owner admits that the car has spent nearly 10 years in a carport protected only by a type of netting cloth. 

Aside from the main issue, after looking at those for sale ads, I came across a lot of 450SLC's and was amazed at the high prices yhey get in AUs.  Here in South Africa SLC's are actually pretty plentiful and prices owuld range from AUS$5000 for a sad example to about AUS$10,000 for a really top example.  SL's are generally about double the price of a similar SLC. 

Thanks to you all for your advice - I'm trying to remain sensible about this all but that's quite difficult when confronted with the first 6.9 I've ever seen in running condition. 

Unfortunately I don't yet have all the details on what is involved in importing a car to South Africa.  My initial efforts suggest that this information is not so easy to come by.  I have contacted a number of regional classic car clubs for help and I am awaiting some response from them. 

Basically what I need is a car that can pass a roadworthy inspection (required before I can transfer it into my name) without too much work.  I believe that the 6.9 I'm looking at here would have aproblemt with that due to the rust in the left front jacking area.  As I understand it, if I buy a car from AUs, it would need to land here in South Africa basically in a condition that it could pass an inspection.  The inspections here are a lot more relaxed than the US or europe.  There's no emissions check or anything like that.  The car must just look visually OK and all lights, windows etc must work. They do a basic engine check buy revving hard in neautral and observing smoking.  But the engine has to be really pretty bad to fail that test. 

I have no problem with the notion of AUS$10,000, and I dont expect councourse condition for that.  I would however expect a car that is straight (free from major accident), and has sound engine.  I would intend to completely disassemble the car, replace all seals, bushes etc and a decent respray.  I would need to add about AUS$8000 for shipping though unfortunately. 

Look, any way you look at it, getting a 6.9 is going to be expensive for me. 

I was only planning to look at a 6.9 next year, when my position may well be that I would not need to part with the R107, and could instead probably have enough funds that I would only need to sell my lower valued Ford. 

HOwever, I want a 6.9 sufficiently much that I felt that if this local car was good enough, and I had to move in a hurry, I would beprepared to sell the R107 to achieve this. 

Thanks for all the help. 

Ryan

[michaeld]

S Class,
I think that part of the issue comes down to "buyer's market" vs. "seller's market."  As a buyer, you kinda want the first one, but in your neck of the woods it seems you are in the latter one.

It's "eBay auto" vs. "Collector car."

Take my 450SEL.  If I tried to buy my car from a source oriented toward the latter, I would be paying $5-6000 USD minimum (I have a couple of collector car mags that ask even more).  But I bought it on eBay, and - stripped of "collector car" status - it went for $851.51 USD (1 124,000 mile one-owner car complete w/ all service records showing an excellent maintenance history)

In my neck of the woods, 6.9s are simply not in the "omigosh!!! " category.  I've seen 6.9s w/ under 50000 miles advertised as rock-solid and thoroughly mechanically sound go for under $5000 USD on several occasions in my local market (Los Angeles, Orange County, Riverside County).

So I look at this $11,500 example and turn up my nose at it.  But I'm in a different market, one that seems to value old MBz, 70's cars, and 6.9s less than your own in S. Africa.

I was only planning to look at a 6.9 next year, when my position may well be that I would not need to part with the R107, and could instead probably have enough funds that I would only need to sell my lower valued Ford. 

HOwever, I want a 6.9 sufficiently much that I felt that if this local car was good enough, and I had to move in a hurry, I would beprepared to sell the R107 to achieve this.

It sounds to me that, while this is a mechanically strong example of a 6.9, it is not an eye-popping good deal.  And given the fact that your logically-reasoned decision was to hold off for at least a few months, I would hold off on a spur-of-the-moment decision unless it was simply too good of a deal to pass up.  You know your local market better than any of the rest of us, and you seem to have excellent mechanical assessment capability.  You can afford to be patient, wait, continue to assess the 6.9 market, and then pounce like one of those lions of yours when you find the best car at the best price.

P.S. You might offer the guy substantially less - pointing out all the stuff you'd have to fix to get the car "right" - and tell him to keep your number.  If the car doesn't sell for awhile, he might come around to your price in a few months.  Best of both worlds.
Mike

[s class]

michaeld,

what you say makes a lot of sense.  Whilst I am not in a position to be picky, I really would prefer burl word, rather than the zebrano this car has, plus I would regard this car's interior colour scheme just about my last choice (just my personal preferences).

What I will spend the next few weeks doing is trying to find out as much as I can about the costs, regulations and processes involved in importing a car, and then review the attractiveness or otherwise of this option. 

You are correct it is not an eye-popping good deal.  I went away from the test drive thinking it was not clearly a 'buy it now' situation, but equally not a 'don't touch it with a barge pole' situation.  However, I have taken heed of styria's comments about potential engine troubles.  I feel reasonably skilled enough to make an assessment of the rust situation, bit not skilled enough to easily assess the engine situation.  Possible further pursuit of this car will therefore depend on a significant price reduction, combined with satisfactory results from a further engine inspection, such as the 'leak down test' styria recommends.  I admit I dont know what that is or how to do it though. 

Indeed we have  a situation here of the car under consideration being awarded an excessive amount of 'collector car' status.  Aware of that, I'm trying not to be blind to the reality of the amount of problems it has. 

Ryan

[robertd]

Hi s class,
Take a look at the two 6.9's in the gallery shownroom section. I have a 1977 Euro specked Icon Gold and a 1979 Oz delivered light blue one. both these cars are in great shape both mechanically and bodywise, even though the blue one has a rear passenger door thats been damaged.  I would be happy to discuss selling one of them, even though I'd like to keep them both, I can not justify this extravagance. The Gold one is registered but the Blue one has just run out of reg. So it would be the obvious one to ship over to you if we could agree on a fair price. I will make some inquiries regarding the cost of shipping to South Africa. Lets both have a think about it. Let me know what you think of the pics.
regards Robert.

[oscar]

Hi parks,

Reminds me of the 280 pics I referred to in my previous post. 
I don't know whether these r107 pics are supposed to be scary or just go to show what can be done I'd have a coronary if my sills ended up that rusty.
Nice job BTW!!

[s class]

parks,

Thanks for those pics.  the uppermost one in oscar's post shows rust perforations in the lower edge of the inner sheeting just ahead of the brake disk.  I'm not sure what that sheeting is called, but the right hand side (the good side) of this 6.9 has 2 to 3 times the severity of rust visible in that area (before grinding and prodding!)

I guess I've just convinced myself it would be a crazy project.  Even if the car was free I would still feel some trepidation!!

robertd I will check the pics and think about it.  In terms of timeline, I would prefer to only look at a 6.9 next year for various reasons, but given the rarity of the cars here, when this rusty one came up, I felt I must at least look at it and consider it. 

Thanks to all you guys for help and generosity. 

Ryan

[robertd]

Hi Ryan,
Did you receive the message I sent back to you? I will have some close up pictures for you in the next few days.
Regards Robert

[s class]

Robert,

Yes thanks I got the email.  I'll PM you again now.