The Forum

Garage => Test Drive => Topic started by: oscar on 23 May 2008, 08:25 AM

Title: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 23 May 2008, 08:25 AM
The short of it is that this 4spd manual 280 belonging to selfor50 came to a halt after being hit by a kangaroo.  Although destined for the track it wasn't supposed to involve much work but since that accidental skippy clash the challenge of turning the 280 into a race car has increased somewhat.

The plan is to use bits and pieces of that yellow 280 I wrecked for body parts and the red 280S for mechanical bits.  The panel work will be the hardest part to get right before it undergos the weight loss routine.  So here's some pics of where I'm at so far. 

The pick up
(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2977/21052008367smallpu6.jpg)

the drop off
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2117/21052008368largejf5.jpg)

the damage :'(
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5046/280sm7rq9.jpg)(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9230/280sm8ug9.jpg)

the donors
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4060/22052008374smallbw7.jpg)(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9301/280sbodyparts5ks8.jpg)(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1410/280sbodyparts4ti8.jpg)(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7664/280sbodyparts3yp1.jpg)
(http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/5871/280sbodyparts2ov4.jpg)
not sure about adding a spoiler yet.
(http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/20/280sbodyparts6oc6.jpg)

The progress
(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/1752/280sm13gk4.jpg)
(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/3729/280sm112jr1.jpg)
(http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9241/280sm115um3.jpg)
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/18/280sm113ge6.jpg)



Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 23 May 2008, 11:07 AM
Gee Oscar, thats quite a project you've got there, and quite some progress already. 

It looks as if you are lucky that the front chassis leg is not damaged - is this the case?

Make sure you keep the aluminium VIN tag off the discarded cross member of this new track car. 

Is this a solo project, or is SELfor50 helping you?

AND - Im sure the best part is, telling your wife "you see - all those parts I kept - they are being used! - and soon after I stored them!" bonus points for you dude. 
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 23 May 2008, 04:42 PM
That front chassis member is good.  I was trying to do a few measurements yesterday with dowel and comparing with the red 280.  It was a mazing to see that a 'roo did that much damage but typically, only the legs would've contacted the bumper.

Funny you mention the ID tag.  I threw that top rad support to the side on top of the other junk and thought about that tag.  "I must remember it".  I have to ask more questions later because this 280 isn't an Aussie delivered car but I'll get some info about it later and post to try and find out what year it is.

selfor50's about 360km away unfortunately.  So it's most likely that the next time we meet the car will be finished..  I don't think I've chatted to anyone on the forums that wasn't at least 2hrs away or more.

oscarette's response so far - "oh wow."  Not Oh WOW as if impressed.  It's more a case of out of sight out of mind.  I've still got a few more places for parts storage.  I haven't even begun to use the roof cavity of the house. ;D
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: nathan on 23 May 2008, 06:22 PM
holy crap!
that is some serious force.  you are right into it. i think you need to go west Oscar...aside from the fact life is peaceful there, we need to see more of your crazed
116 antics over here.
interesting 280, must have been modestly quick.  oel cooled euro engine with 4 speed - where did it come from?

ryan, your comment about telling the wife made me laugh. last night i had to get the approval to make a bid on something i hope to have news on today...at 190cm or so, i
was trembling in front of my 155cm wife asking permission to buy another vehicle ;)

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: 500eguy on 23 May 2008, 06:39 PM
jesus, did that kangaroo explode!! you guys are making me envious with your Manual 116s....., Is there anyway to make a 450 into a manual?
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 23 May 2008, 07:19 PM
AFAIK, the only way to make a 450 a manual is to find a 350 manual and use its gearbox.  But nothing is impossible.  I shouldn't say "the only way".  I can imagine that with the right money and engineering expertese of pros that there may be many manual transmissions suitable but with signficant mods including the adaptor housing and connections to allow it to be slotted in.  Obviously the most sought after conversion would be to find something that would be as close to a drop in replacement as possible with little modification.  Who knows what might be out there.  In the end though it might be easier to do a whole engine and tranny swap from something else that may not even be MB.  Thought that would defeat the purpose of a manual 450.

Apparently the kangaroo was still on the side of the road rotting away but I forgot to go see how big it was.  It was a big one and luckily Cam didn't hit on the half volley otherwise it would have come back and wrecked the windshield, a-pillar and roof.

Nathan, as far as where it came from, it was owned by a Uni student in Canberra, or someone in Canberra, then onto selfor50 who only had it for four days before this happened.  If it wasn't a manual it would've been dispensed with I reckon.  But I don't know its origins and I'd love to know.  I'm not at home right now but the oel cooler is the same setup as the red 280s.  However, the red 280S has the Aus compliance plate and radiator support options code plate.  This manual one has no options code plate or aus compliance plate on the firewall.  From memory, the chassis code was 116 020 60, or 116 024 60  I can't remember what 60 means but I think it's to do with RH manual and one of those numbers means it's german made.  Although I can't remember which, the plate says "Made in Germany" ;D
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 24 May 2008, 01:02 AM
Oscar, I think that would be 116 020 60

020 is 280S, 60 means South African (6) built manual (0) - I *think* though I 'm happy to be corrected.  South African built cars do not have options code plates. 

Nathan, yeah, I know, its all about getting permission.  BUt it can turn around on you - I am wanting to sell my 450SL and the W140, and now she says - ah but I like that new one (ie the W140).  Now I need permission to sell it....
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 24 May 2008, 04:26 AM
That's interesting.  Is there any other way to confirm SA build?  There's no documentation, only the ID plate.  I'll take a photo when I finnish work and post it.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 24 May 2008, 05:40 AM
If you look at the VIN on the firewall, on south African cars there is a gap after the VIN, then the paint code is stamped.  I guess cause there is no options plate to put the paint code on. 

My 280SE also has the paint code stamped into the cross member above the radiator. 
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: carl888 on 24 May 2008, 07:16 AM
Wow, makes my centre console effort seem pretty lame, well done Oscar!

Regards,

Carl.

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 24 May 2008, 09:17 AM
Thanks Carl, but given my experience of wrecking one w116, what's been done so far was admittedly pretty easy in comparison to the upcoming rebuild and making it look like nothing happened.  That's going to be a real test.

sclass, a couple of pics.  Haven't been able to find a paint code anywhere, but given the amount of overspray in various places I wouldn't be surprised if a tag was removed or stamped numbers filled and painted over.  None of the doors or sills have stickers and even the refuelling lid has had filler applied to the inside, sticker removed and repainted with no holes visible now that are usually there.

(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/4898/24052008380mediumdq9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


the firewall rubber cutout is just out of frame on both sides but there were no more numbers or letters.  There's no other similar cutouts either.

(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8933/25052008382mediumge1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 24 May 2008, 11:17 AM
Sorry Oscar, I think I may have mislead you.  I've just checked up on my 280SE.

On the firewall is has :

VIN (space) CDA number (space) paint code.

The CDA number is the sequence number from the South African plant.  Now thinking about it, my car is a very late one - I don't know how long they had the practice of putting the CDA  number there. 
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 24 May 2008, 12:08 PM
Oscar's doing a great job on this already!!

As he said, I had it for 4 days and was travelling down to Victoria to march on Anzac day..  Bout 11pm at night, foggy - and bam kangaroo was right in front of me.
Hit the anchors (hence the crazy flatspot on the tyre) swerved right, half off the road, he bounced across and made sure i hit him.  I spun into the ditch, and luckily there were no trees on that stretch in the middle of the road.

The roo is still there rotting, but in a couple pieces stretching about 2-3m along the road.

As for the 4 speed behind a 450, I know there was a guy I was going to buy that 5speed off that was hangin off the 450 M117 engine.  But he mentioned it had problems with being stuck in gear etc. He claimed it was only the linkages, and as I'm miles away I wasn't going to go and buy it off him.  Pretty sure it was a 280 5 speed with adapter plate sitting behind the m117.
Don't reckon a 280 5 speed would handle the torque of the 4.5L.  Probably same scenario with the 280 box, even being MB I dont' think it would be up to the stress of being thrashed with that much torque bearing down on the gears..

On the side Oscar, you know i'd actually love to come down your way one weekend (maybe on the way to sandown?!) and help you work on the beast.  It's the least I can do!!

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 24 May 2008, 12:20 PM
On the way to Sandown??  I'll be driving it there  :D  No I wont. :( Would love to though if it was ready but not sure what to do about registering it if at all.  It's a PITA that distance prevents more of a joint effort on whatever cars need attention but anyway.  I'm just hanging out to throw tools at it again.  3 more days of work to go.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 28 May 2008, 03:23 AM
Bit of an update.  Spent most of the afternoon degreasing, high pressure hose, degrease, high pressure hose and no matter how hard I try, some gunk just don't want to come off.  But it's an improvement. 

I also cut up the spare front and test fitted.  Tomorrow I'll do some fine tuning with the grinder to make surethe piece fits as close as possible to being perfect.  The innerguard is going to be the most challengin part.  Too much off and it will look crap and need filling.  Butt joins all round is what I'm going to attempt to do.

Before and after
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/394/imgp4344mediumlf5.jpg)
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/740/imgp4352mediumke0.jpg)

more of the engine
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1135/imgp4350smallph1.jpg)(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6740/imgp4351smallvo7.jpg)


Test fitting the front
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5779/imgp4349largenr4.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 28 May 2008, 04:30 AM
That's looking great Oscar!!!

I can't believe the state this was in only 1 week ago... and now?!  You're a f*kn machine!!!!!  8)

Looking forward to Sandown... ;)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 28 May 2008, 05:20 AM
Tomorrow's no interuptions so fingers crossed, if I get everything stripped and prepped for welding and painting I can concentrate on doing some other stuff round the house whilst I wait for the welding on Saturday.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 28 May 2008, 06:09 AM
You're definitely doing me proud dude, i knew there was a reason I passed you the torch!! (wasn't supposed to be a welding torch either...  ::) )

In regards to the synchro's in the gear box, I didn't mention that when revving hard and trying to snap change the synchro's basically couldn't keep up with my changing pace.
Eg. the clutch was definately all the way in but as I was changing so fast it couldn't really keep up... and would crunch and go in, or bite and jump out till i did it slowly.

I know I only had the car 3 days of driving, but I tested it out for track purposes.  The gearbox synchros may need looking at if going to be used for track as you'll wanna be able to snap shift.  Apparently this isn't too hard, but will definitely be worth researching.

I was gonna suggest that on the Sat before sandown (assuming you have it off) i'll head to Griffith early early morning, and we can work on this puppy all day... then head down to melbs in the arvs..  I just feel so helpless in canberra not being able to, well, help.   ::)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 28 May 2008, 09:03 AM
Without knowing what this one was like I thought when I first saw this thing on ebay that it would be very rare to find a manual box in perfect condition.  So what you say doesn't surprise me.  However, I got no idea what to do about it.  I've changed a clutch plate on a tractor's power take off when I was 16 and although that's a completely different thing to synchro it's the closest I've come to doing anything that resembles a part in a manual box.  Doesn't mean I wouldn't tackle it at some stage.  Though I've no idea where to find a manual on a w116 manual trans ???  there's a couple of mentions in the library about checking and changing oil.  That might be a good start.  When I get it going again I'll try it with the old oil then with new but check the level first.  Maybe if the oil has sludged up (if thats possible) the gear changes are like what you say.   But I've no idea.


About Sandown, it is 13th July isn't it or is it sooner?  This puppy will be finished by then.  Well, not fully race prepped but definitely painted and roadworthy.  I hope to be test driving it next Friday at the soonest.  Anyway, Saturday wont be any good so far as we wont be here.  The plan at the moment is to leave early Sat to do kids stuff, keep the wife happy stuff, on Sat in Melbs.  We might even leave Friday night but I think I finish at 22:00, too late.  So more likely we'll leave at 5am Sat.  We may however be staying on Sunday night since the kids are on hols and we can travel back on Monday.  This means a brew or two plus a few after raceday ;D

Don't feel bad about not helping, but you can feel jealous.  I'm enjoying it.  It's pretty well plain sailing so far and fun (until you mentioned the gearbox :D ).  Seriously, as opposed to the other "projects" I bought for no particular reason come to think of it ::), Povo's got a purpose.  It will be finished.




Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: 13B on 28 May 2008, 11:41 PM
The gearchange synchro problem is not unusual for any gearbox made in the 1970s... be that mazda, holden, ford, mercedes.  Couple that with the fact that someone explained to me that the MB 4-speed gearbox design goes back to the 1940s...

If the box is loose but the synchros are still working, as you would expect in a box which has done 400,000+ km (how many times is that from Canberra to Jo-burg and back if there was a road joining the two?), you run a concoction which I run in the RX4: 1/3 80W90 gear oil, 1/3 ATF, 1/3 Lucas Oil stabiliser.  Changes are a bit notchy when cold but work well when warmed up.

Also just learn how to change gear as quickly as possible without crunching it... The mazda boxes are by no means quick changing but I get acceptable gear changes now that I've learned to drive it... a couple of weeks behind the wheel of Povo and you'll have it down pat. 

I.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 29 May 2008, 03:13 AM
It will be interesting to get an idea of what it's doing.  My changes might be ultra slow compared to Cam's ::)

Just got a few photos from today.  I've inhaled too many hydrocarbons, i got a headache and I can't spell.  I have to be quick so basically, i striiped that front bit and still need to get that butt joint right but I might get the welder in tomorrow.  I think I'm getting a migraine >:(

Also painted the pulley's black after seeing PB's effort.

(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2605/imgp4365largeda9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/961/imgp4363largerx4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7344/imgp4357largeno0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 29 May 2008, 09:54 AM
Lookin' great O-man!!!  Those pulley's look very niiiiiiice... I liiiiiike.. ;)

Are you gonna have a crack at the welding??  I've never welded before in my life so it scares me...
Hope it all goes well!!
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 29 May 2008, 01:41 PM
Very impressive Oscar.  You are moving ahead at a cracking pace and making us all proud.  Well done. 
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: Big_Richard on 29 May 2008, 05:47 PM
good work oscar.  8)

What type of welder are you planning to use, and have you got welding experience on this kind of material ?

I once tryed welding a car body and just blew holes in it, but it was a particularly crappy mig welder.

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 29 May 2008, 06:07 PM
Don't ya just love the look of new looking metal 8)  It's the first time I've seen the pics since yesterday.

Regarding welding - I have a friend that used to be a machinist/welder/fitter for BHP, or as we call it, Big Hardware Place :D and he's bringing around his good but old CIG MIG.  He hasn't used it for a while and has never used gasless wire but that's what we're going to use.  Might practice on the crushed panel first.  We'll both have a go but Paul will do the welding. 

The only problem is that, as is typical when things are rolling along smoothly, the project's going to stall after today.  I have to work out of town on Saturday, that was supposed to be weld day so that's screwed things up for a week.  I doubt we'll be able to weld today.

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: Big_Richard on 29 May 2008, 08:38 PM
do let me know how you go with gasless mig welding, this is what i tried to use and even on the lowest setting blew holes in anything it touched.

Infact, ive never seen any use out of my gasless mig what so ever, everything ive tried with it has failed..
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 29 May 2008, 10:52 PM
I've spent most of the morning at this engineering shop that's having a sale and all the reps are there.  Talking to some knowledgeable people that don't work for CIG, Lincoln or whatever other brands were there, anything under 170amp is a waste of time.  There was a ripper 180amp gas/gasless Lincoln one for $975 that it was almost worth hitting up the credit card and getting divorced over it.

When talking panel work and sheet metal, my mate said that to avoid burning holes or to fill a gap with mig you could hold some copper sheet to the underside to stop the molten steel dropping away.  The copper conducts the heat away quickly, makes the molten steel cool quicker and the joint can be filled relatively quickly.  The copper doesn't take the weld either BTW.  It's melting point is too high.  We've got some scrap copper plate in rolls an will need to do this along that butt joint to stop the gap getting bigger and to prevent holes forming.  But next Friday/Saturday looks most likely the day/s so I'll get back to you with results. 
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 30 May 2008, 12:03 AM
Isn't this exciting!

(just read the new post but I think mine still makes sense - interesting about the copper though and you obviously know what you are doing.)

I have done a small amount of work with gasless mig and it seemed OK. As with any mig welding I was told once to make sure the metal is really clean to be welded to get a good result. Blowing holes is usually just your amp setting as far as I know. I suggest getting a bit of mild steel plate and just keep trying different settings, sometimes it will keep sticking, sometimes blow holes and you want it somewhere in between. Your mate and probably you Oscar know that it is the expansion and warpage that is the big issue. I would suggest little tack welds, remeasure, check fit of panels etc, read just if necessary, then more tacks, check again and so on. But I am just an amateur but I have had some bad (and also good) experiences and find that a lot of caution early on can save a heap of work later. With my bad experiences it is just amazing how much movement you can get in the metal.

Also re what welder, for that structural sort of stuff and panels where you are happy to do final finishing with a slither of bog I reckon the mig is best due to minimising the amount of heat and therefore warpage. If you want to metal finish or maybe even bigger panel welds or in the middle of panels where no matter what you will get a fair bit of warpage and want to heat shrink, then I would suggest Oxy. Only reason being is that a fusion weld with oxy all the material is the same and you can grind the weld and bash it and it will all respond the same. The mig weld is harder and you have this hard weld surrounded by softer metal and makes it all more difficult. I am not antibog but I had a vintage car that had beautifully rolled panel sections in the reat that got mig welded together, I bought it at that stage and it took an eternity to get it right again.

And with the gearbox, I totally agree with what 13b has said. I haven't heard of his cocktail before but I had a car and I ran a thinner penrite brew that helped it greatly in the synchro dept. I haven't had these later boxes apart but the earlier ones are very simple indeed and easy to rebuild, but I would play lots with oil first and technique, getting off the gas between the change and delaying just a split second probably wont kill your time too much.

If it helps to describe how your 4spd gearbox works, you have an input shaft that the clutch is hanging on and this is inline with the output shaft that has all the gears on it inside the box. In top gear your lever pushes the very front gear to lock into the back of the input shaft and is a direct drive, hence why often a worn gearbox goes quiet in top because the power is not going through gears. The whole time there is another shaft with fixed gears on it that is meshed with a gear on the input shaft. When you select the other gears you slide the gears on the ouput shaft along so they mesh with the corresponding gear on the layshaft ie. power from input to layshaft to output shaft but output shaft spins at different speeds based on the ratio of the meshed gears. I have a picture in my head i am describing so I hope that makes sense in words only!

Now for the synchro, the gears are stationary/freewheeling on that output shaft when not engaged and fixed to it and via the input shaft the layshaft is spinning at a fixed rate to the revs of the engine, so the synchro for example can be a cone sort of clutch between the shaft and the gear and as you push the gear in it speeds it up or slows it down to the same speed and hence no crunch. If that cone clutch is worn and slipping, it might not change the speed quick enough on quick changes.

I'm running out of time here but I hope that makes sense or someone can correct me.

Also double declutching using heel/toe is really useful and much easier on the gearbox for the track. Let me know if you want me to have a go at describing that.

and lastly, my car is not far off the track now, probably july but keep you posted.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: 13B on 30 May 2008, 12:38 AM
Craigb,

Quoteand lastly, my car is not far off the track now, probably july but keep you posted.

Here's one we prepared earlier...

(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%201001%20Large%20Web%20view.jpg)

(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%201000%20Large%20Web%20view.jpg)

(http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/mercedes_b/Picture%20or%20Video%201002%20Large%20Web%20view.jpg)

Now can we see some pictures of the progress on yours...

I.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 30 May 2008, 12:40 AM
Quote from: craigb on 30 May 2008, 12:03 AM
Isn't this exciting!

(just read the new post but I think mine still makes sense - interesting about the copper though and you obviously know what you are doing.)

I have done a small amount of work with gasless mig and it seemed OK. As with any mig welding I was told once to make sure the metal is really clean to be welded to get a good result. Blowing holes is usually just your amp setting as far as I know. I suggest getting a bit of mild steel plate and just keep trying different settings, sometimes it will keep sticking, sometimes blow holes and you want it somewhere in between. Your mate and probably you Oscar know that it is the expansion and warpage that is the big issue. I would suggest little tack welds, remeasure, check fit of panels etc, read just if necessary, then more tacks, check again and so on. But I am just an amateur but I have had some bad (and also good) experiences and find that a lot of caution early on can save a heap of work later. With my bad experiences it is just amazing how much movement you can get in the metal.

Also re what welder, for that structural sort of stuff and panels where you are happy to do final finishing with a slither of bog I reckon the mig is best due to minimising the amount of heat and therefore warpage. If you want to metal finish or maybe even bigger panel welds or in the middle of panels where no matter what you will get a fair bit of warpage and want to heat shrink, then I would suggest Oxy. Only reason being is that a fusion weld with oxy all the material is the same and you can grind the weld and bash it and it will all respond the same. The mig weld is harder and you have this hard weld surrounded by softer metal and makes it all more difficult. I am not antibog but I had a vintage car that had beautifully rolled panel sections in the reat that got mig welded together, I bought it at that stage and it took an eternity to get it right again.

And with the gearbox, I totally agree with what 13b has said. I haven't heard of his cocktail before but I had a car and I ran a thinner penrite brew that helped it greatly in the synchro dept. I haven't had these later boxes apart but the earlier ones are very simple indeed and easy to rebuild, but I would play lots with oil first and technique, getting off the gas between the change and delaying just a split second probably wont kill your time too much.

If it helps to describe how your 4spd gearbox works, you have an input shaft that the clutch is hanging on and this is inline with the output shaft that has all the gears on it inside the box. In top gear your lever pushes the very front gear to lock into the back of the input shaft and is a direct drive, hence why often a worn gearbox goes quiet in top because the power is not going through gears. The whole time there is another shaft with fixed gears on it that is meshed with a gear on the input shaft. When you select the other gears you slide the gears on the ouput shaft along so they mesh with the corresponding gear on the layshaft ie. power from input to layshaft to output shaft but output shaft spins at different speeds based on the ratio of the meshed gears. I have a picture in my head i am describing so I hope that makes sense in words only!

Now for the synchro, the gears are stationary/freewheeling on that output shaft when not engaged and fixed to it and via the input shaft the layshaft is spinning at a fixed rate to the revs of the engine, so the synchro for example can be a cone sort of clutch between the shaft and the gear and as you push the gear in it speeds it up or slows it down to the same speed and hence no crunch. If that cone clutch is worn and slipping, it might not change the speed quick enough on quick changes.

I'm running out of time here but I hope that makes sense or someone can correct me.

Also double declutching using heel/toe is really useful and much easier on the gearbox for the track. Let me know if you want me to have a go at describing that.

and lastly, my car is not far off the track now, probably july but keep you posted.

Good info on the welding everyone.

Craigb, great to understand the gearbox a bit better..  I'd definitely be interested in hearing your breakdown of 'heel-towing'.  I still don't understand exactly how it works.

Craig, also mate.  GIVE US SOME F*KN PICTURES OF YOUR TRACK CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   I'm over it, you're like a girlfriend that won't put out...... i'm sure what you're doing is f*kn sweet as!!!  But I'm not gonna keep this relationship up if you won't show us your engine bay!!!    :o :D   ;)

Jokes aside mate, i'm pretty keen to see some pics of how your build is coming along (i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one either).
You realise that Sandown is on July 13th in Victoria.  I'm driving down from Canberra for it.... Oscar may have this beast ready....
And a good chance 13B may have his 450 ready...  How good would it be to have 4 116's at the SAME SPRINT!!??!!??!!!!  
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) <--That's how cool it'd be!!  ;D
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 30 May 2008, 07:11 AM
 :D :D :D  I'm with SELfor50.  Where is your car CraigB 8)

Intersting read CraigB.  I do get it regarding the gearbox although it will make more sense when I get some diagrams and that sort of thing.   Fluid change will be the first thing and I might need some recommendations when the time comes.

I have to correct you on the folowing quote though.

Quote from: craigb on 30 May 2008, 12:03 AM
interesting about the copper though and you obviously know what you are doing.

That's incorrect.  I'm truly wingin' it.  Never been down this road before but for a hack I'm picking it up quick and I've never used a MIG before.  That copper info is all from my good buddy welder.  I should say ex buddy or soon to be ex buddy when he gets my email because earlier in the day we went to that previously talked about engineering shop and I decided not to buy a $1000 Lincoln MIG welder that I couldn't afford anyway.  he could see I was tempted and as he left he said "Don't do anything stoopid, we'll use mine next weekend,ok?"  :-[

Whoops, I didn't buy a MIG but I came home and thought, maybe I'll just tack the rad support on.  (This was just after I spoke to you 13B)  Well I burnt a hole using 2.0mm rods with my stick welder :P  But I filled it then one tack led to another which led to a run over the top and then I was slowly flying. 

6hours later and she's velded all up ;D ;D ;D ;D

So, who needs a MIG afterall.  Well, i agree with what you say CraigB as it's the same kind of things me and my buddy were talking about but I found decent tack welds to hold the panel tight and during the warping/expansion/contraction I was delighted that the panels didn't crack at the weld join.  I burnt a few holes but filled them by adding and grinding and adding and grinding.  It was a huge effort to monitor the heat going through the molten steel but after stressing the welds with my weight, I've no doubt that despite the sometime turkey shit appearance, they're solid welds underneath and not held to gether by slag.  I'll admit though, I assume a MIG would've made a 6hour job into 2 hours or less if my buddy did it.

Still needs a grind and clean but it's getting too late. The alignment is so close to perfect, it virtually is. 
I even bought the paint and primer for Wednesday on, next lot of days off work. 8)
Enjoy.

(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2482/welding2mf0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7076/weldingsv2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/1095/welding5mh7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/1731/welding6uu4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/3078/welding8tp3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4829/welding10xm6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7342/welding11uo9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2708/welding12jm2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/4464/welding13uz0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4858/welding14jb5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/128/welding16gi9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: koan on 30 May 2008, 07:52 AM

You're doing well there oscar with the welding, its a talent I don't have.

Regarding the gearbox I might be able to help you there, I have a book on transmissions, if you tell me what you've got I'll see if its in the book

koan
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 30 May 2008, 08:13 AM
Koan that would be fantastic.  I'm a little while from getting under there and finding out but when I do I'll email you with what I know.  All I know so far is that it's a 4spd and has a reverse whereby you pull the lever towards the roof, shift left then up.  As for welding, it's just patience, but I'm still waiting to hear back from my mate who is bound to say it's shithouse and I should've waited :D
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 30 May 2008, 08:13 PM
Looks great Oscar!!!  I don't know anything about welding at all, but i'd trust that weld!  ;)

Either way, as long as it's on there enough to withstand your CRAZY acceleration and breaking (not to mention cornering) then it's all good!!  8)


So is that it for the front end chop job??  (besides painting of course)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 31 May 2008, 04:10 AM
Quote from: SELfor50 on 30 May 2008, 08:13 PM
So is that it for the front end chop job??  (besides painting of course)

Pretty much.  When I get a chance I'll grind the welds as flat as possible then my mate, who wasn't too hard on me when he saw the pics, will come and MIG any weak spots if I find any.  I still want to have another go at getting the top rad support smooth as without bogging it up.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 01 June 2008, 05:29 AM
Quote from: oscar on 31 May 2008, 04:10 AM
Quote from: SELfor50 on 30 May 2008, 08:13 PM
So is that it for the front end chop job??  (besides painting of course)

Pretty much.  When I get a chance I'll grind the welds as flat as possible then my mate, who wasn't too hard on me when he saw the pics, will come and MIG any weak spots if I find any.  I still want to have another go at getting the top rad support smooth as without bogging it up.

Looks pretty smooth to me!  8)  but if you've come this far, why not do it properly.  Only way to do things!  ;)

So i'm guessing you're probably gonna have this thing driveable in the next week or 2?
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 01 June 2008, 06:49 AM
I hope so.  All comes down to the paint - (I've never used a spray gun before) but it might take some practice to make it look decent.

But all the mechanical stuff should be a simple bolt up/replace affair, same as some of the electrics, a bit of splicing and rewire here and there but fairly straight forward.  I have some goodies coming this week too.  My favourite though, this twin mercedes fan which should fit in the condenser slot, sort of, with a few custom brackets or straps added.

(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2065/cca71575af21ph5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: Big_Richard on 01 June 2008, 06:59 AM
Quote from: oscar on 01 June 2008, 06:49 AM
My favourite though, this twin mercedes fan which should fit in the condenser slot, sort of, with a few custom brackets or straps added.


Mr Schindler, How are you going to wire these fans up? to a relay and temperature switch or are you going to user rocker switches to power them???
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 01 June 2008, 07:16 AM
Not sure yet.  I'm thinking maybe remote switch.  It may still work via the coolant switch alone.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 01 June 2008, 10:41 AM
Quote from: Patrick Bateman on 01 June 2008, 06:59 AM
Quote from: oscar on 01 June 2008, 06:49 AM
My favourite though, this twin mercedes fan which should fit in the condenser slot, sort of, with a few custom brackets or straps added.


Mr Schindler, How are you going to wire these fans up? to a relay and temperature switch or are you going to user rocker switches to power them???

Gotta be rocker switches..  8)  Personal choice anyway.

When you say 'remote switch'  or coolant switch, how do you mean?  As in always on?
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 01 June 2008, 10:43 AM
Or...

Link (http://www.bestronusa.com/category/index.cfm?cid=343&lvl=3)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: TJ 450 on 01 June 2008, 11:20 AM
Looking good Oscar.  8)

With those fans, I would imagine you could get a coolant temp switch that closes at a much lower temp that has the same diameter hole as the existing auxilliary fan coolant temp switch in the water manifold or wherever it is. You could run a rocker switch in parallel to that for added control. That's how I would go about it.

Tim
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 01 June 2008, 04:30 PM
Quote from: SELfor50 on 01 June 2008, 10:41 AM
When you say 'remote switch'  or coolant switch, how do you mean?  As in always on?

Yeah, just a switch somewhere on the inside so I can have it always on.  But what if I forget to turn it on :-\  I'd like some safeguard still whereby the fan will come on regardless of the manual setting when the coolant gets warm.   I like your thinking TJ.  Whether I use the existing temp switch or not I don't know, but the idea of the added manual control and auto safeguard is hopefully how it will end up.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 02 June 2008, 09:01 AM
Got the fan today. PB, I don't think it would fit yours after I said it would in your rad thread.  The hub of the motor is too thick.  Not a prob for me with an M110 and no condenser.  If I set it up to pull air, the motor will aim towards where the a/c compressor was but probably would've cleared it.  If I set it up to push, well there's no condenser anymore so it wont contact the grill.  Just need to make some brackets up, not sure tie wire is going to do the job long term. ::)

(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/1332/imgp4398largejn4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/6381/imgp4399largeud8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 03 June 2008, 03:09 AM
That looks bloody nice oscar!! How much did the twin thermo's cost?

And did you say they were MB fans??
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 03 June 2008, 04:23 AM
$170 posted from Qld, won on ebay.  It's got a 1996 date on it and an MB part number that when searched comes up on autohausaz but doesn't say what model it's from.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 03 June 2008, 08:14 AM
Thanks mate.  Gonna have to get me a set..   8)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: Big_Richard on 03 June 2008, 04:34 PM
yep, those fans definitely arent suitable for a 6.9 way too thick. :(
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 03 June 2008, 05:58 PM
True.  Actually, the more I look at it I think it wouldn't be suitable for any V8's if used as a pull fan.  The motor is just too tall.  Holding it above the 350 it's as though the motor would contact with the alternator belt and you couldn't use it as a push fan at all on any without removal of the condensor because of the grill.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 04 June 2008, 03:30 AM
Today was spray day.  I ground the mounds of welds till I got bored then used filler.  It looks alright but I reckon I could've done a better job.  The filler I used had fibreglass strands in it and made air bubbles form fairly easily.  Not to worry, all's good.  I'm pretty happy how good the primer/sufacer looks.  Only a couple of runs but now I know how to control the gun, a bit of a sand tomorrow and I'll be able to move on. 

Something tells me I should've tried out the replacement bonnet to see if the latch is aligned :-\  Nah, she'll be right ;D I haven't even stripped it yet so that's the first job tomorrow.


Filler applied
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7756/imgp4403largesb8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Got bored sanding by hand so in came the grinder and sanding disc.  Can't beat power tools ;D
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5809/imgp4406largeow8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Pre paint
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2224/imgp4407largeiz2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Post paint.  Although I ended up covering the whole bumper beam
(http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3418/imgp4409largeue5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5150/imgp4414largeqw4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1304/imgp4416largexz4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

quarter panel primed.
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2514/imgp4417largegp4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 04 June 2008, 05:22 AM
I sound like a broken record.. but.  "That looks f*kn great Oscar!"  :D  ;)

Was it hard to get used to the spray gun??

What are you using for an 'oven'.. Eg.. are you waiting for warm days etc..  I know it's not gonna be a show car spray etc, so does it matter at all whether it's warm or not, or you can do it anytime?

...i'm contemplating doing a 'race spec' spray of ol' silver, so any advice is greatly appreciated!  :)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 04 June 2008, 05:37 AM
This is the first time I've used a spray gun.  It's a supercheap unit I bought two or more years ago and it's the first opportunity I've had to use it.  Hey I'm no pro, but I'm pretty pleased with the results so far.  I bought a Gregory's panel and spray manual. (2 books).  I read both ages ago and most has been forgotten but I suppose there's a number of rules some of which I broke or bent all the way along, but preparation is a big one.  Any lump of crud is going to show through.  Then there's the surface that has to be clean.  I did my best in that department mainly using a wire brush on a drill or grinder then I washed, brushed from top down with a cleaning thinner and used compressed air prior to washing down and also after to dry the thinners completely.  When spraying, I started doing underneath the inner guard to get a feel for the rate of spray and experiment.  Basically, eveness is the key and keep moving.  You stop in one spot and there starts the runs.

I'm going to do the bonnet tomorrow first then may do the top coat on the engine bay.  Baking - Not sure.  It's too cold to be painting in the garage doorway plus it's humid.  Look back through the photos and you'll see how surface rust has appeared whilst the car was indoors the whole time after being stripped.  I thought about buying a couple of radiant heaters but may just let it air dry.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: 500eguy on 05 June 2008, 02:47 AM
I am Jealous that you can do all this stuff yourself... you must teach me your skills sir...:) looks great!
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 05 June 2008, 03:22 AM
Next time I'm up your way..... ;D  I haven't even got a passport ::)

Didn't get as much done today due to the bonnet taking forever to strip, mostly due to the amount of filler previously applied, and it's still not finished.  Tomorrow I'll get it done.

But I did get an underbody coat applied to the inner guard and inside the quarter panel.

(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/186/imgp4425mediumox0.jpg)
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8588/imgp4418mediumnp4.jpg)

Layers on the bonnet
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1356/imgp4419mediumze7.jpg)
(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/4716/imgp4421mediumwm8.jpg)
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2938/imgp4423mediumyr7.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 06 June 2008, 04:13 AM
Well the biggest problem today is that I found out I didn't put enough primer surfacer on the quarter panel.  Wasn't as obvious until I put the white enamel on but it's shocking.  I'm going to strip and start again.  I only put about 4 coats on of primer surfacer whereas after I learnt my lesson, the bonnet has had 7 coats and two sands so far and it still needs more to fill the previous sanding disc gouge marks.  But it's interesting to see the marks slowly disappear with each coat.

The chassis parts on the other hand are pretty good and not such a drama with imperfections anyway.  I'm not sure whether to leave it as is or sand and give it one more coat. 

Without baking facilities, it's amazing how long it's taking to dry. 3-5hrs it says on the can, but it's still tacky just about everywhere after 9 hrs.  The paint appeared stark white in comparison to the old paint but as it started to dry it did get that cream/off white look of 050G.  Not sure if that's what this car is but it looked exactly the same as my 350 which is 050G.


(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8086/imgp4434smallax3.jpg)
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7135/imgp4435smallku4.jpg)
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9127/imgp4437smallww5.jpg)
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6690/imgp4440smalles8.jpg)

(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5784/imgp4439smallmg9.jpg)
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/222/imgp4447smallfw2.jpg)
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/621/imgp4441smallzn3.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: MB_Mike on 06 June 2008, 08:12 AM
Oscar everything looks great! It must be really satisfying to see things come together like this. How many hours do you have in it so far?
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 06 June 2008, 08:34 AM
Thanks Mike.  I wish I kept all my dockets and kept a diary of some kind to document the whole thing but looking back I've spent at least 6 or 7 full days on it so far over the past 14.  Geez it feels longer.  The inlaws are visiting tomorrow and I go back to work on Sunday so that might be all for another 5 days or so.  Late at nights I might do the radiator install and fan.  Now that I've finished with the grinder and other power tools minus the air compressor, I can pretty much catch up with the rest of the rebuild during worknights, or any night I suppose.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: nathan on 06 June 2008, 09:18 AM
great follow up pics oscar,
you know, the rest of thec ar doesnt match your quarter panel...just keep going i say, the whole damn thing!! ;)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: kolin on 06 June 2008, 09:26 AM
oscar
i have been looking around and reading seeing what people have done in the past and i am now going to do what you have done.you have given me inspiration, for my 350se
going to pull all the stuff out the car, weld up the holes and re weld the brackets and vaious parts that have rusted. will send pics.
and probably respray.i bought a compressor with spray attachments etc and its amazing, never done spray painting before and its great fun.
thanks again, once i have done all the security bars on the house, will start on the green machine,hate that "petrol" colour.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 06 June 2008, 06:50 PM
Quote from: nathan on 06 June 2008, 09:18 AM
you know, the rest of thec ar doesnt match your quarter panel...

I thought you were colour blind ::)  ;D  yes I noticed the stark contrast but I'll stick to my usual excuse, "it's ok, it's only a track car" but the urge to do the lot is very tempting.  Think of the whole lot as an undercoat for the eventual raceing livery 8) 8)

(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/9323/amgracersmallln4.jpg)

Let's hope my spraypainting improves on my photoshopping.

kolin, go for it.  I keep saying I'm no pro, never done this before etc etc.  But you try something and it either looks right or it doesn't and you learn from it.  One thing I learnt yesterday was to read labels.  I ran out of primer surfacer so bought some more, got back home, dropped some in the pot, added thinners and the spray gun wouldn't work.  Opened the pot up and the paint looked weird.  I accidentally bought water based acrylic primer, not enamel primer :-[ .  I took off to buy an enamel tin and rushed home to find the acrylic stuff was drying in the gun, the nozzle, the pick up, Arrgh.!!!!  Took ages to clean.  Another thing I learnt the other day when I got a few runs in the paint was that my spray pattern was horizontal and parrallel to the gun's travel.  If things aren't done right, it shows and although I've tried to highlight some faults, the photos make the car look better than it really is.  Creating a smooth surface is very challenging.   So it hasn't all been smooth sailing with some decent F up's on the way but  yeah, spray painting is fun.   8)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: Big_Richard on 06 June 2008, 07:35 PM
I am an ultra amateurish spray painter - with cars of the past, Ive found it very difficult to get a decent looking finish on older panels that have been painted before. I am way too lazy to prepair them properly. :P

But, since my cars usually went spinning off the side of the road at high speed in the rainy weather, i always required new panels etc. I found it MUCH easier to paint brand new parts than old ones. Even the plastic bumpers are a piece of cake to paint when brand new and look fantastic.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 07 June 2008, 08:44 AM
This is where I find my dilemma Pat.  I'm verging on the too lazy to care plus it's only a track car excuse that I'm nearly accepting that unless I strip both panels again, I'll never get a perfect finish.  Well actually, I don't mind too much with these.  I just wasn't expecting to find that they had already been filled with loads of filler to cover imperfections.  Beforehand they looked good apart from cracked top coat.  I thought they would be perfectly straight for a back to bare metal simple respray.  Not so.  I don't want to go buying another tub of filler for the vanity thing if this car has a high risk of needing those panels again after it's first track event ::)

Anyway,  dust was the issue again.  Chassis/rad support, no worries.  Pretty smooth and gloosy on the inner guard and top rad support but the panels attracted dust and man I was p'd off.  I cleaned, washed down but there must have been something in the air.  As soon as I started on the bonnet, there was hairy dust crap everywhere so I just put a light coat on so I can sand it back a little and try again in a few days.  I can live with the odd slight dent or depression, I really just want to get a decent smooth gloss without dust.  So the panels will now sit aside whilst I start checking out the mechanicals, replace radiator etc at nights after work.


Check the dust >:(

(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7358/imgp4449mediumyu3.jpg)
(http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9391/imgp4450mediumlb0.jpg)
(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5111/imgp4451mediumze5.jpg)

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 08 June 2008, 09:22 AM
Kolin, I got excited when you mentioned doing the same as oscar with your 350SE... thought you were going to race it??!!  :o  I guess a re-spray is almost as cool..  :D  ;)

Doing some good work there oscar.  It's coming along..  8)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: kolin on 09 June 2008, 03:06 AM
i learnt after using water based paints the first time, it doenst work well with these spray guns, so will use enamel .
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 09 June 2008, 10:24 PM
Taking a break at work and checked the forum but of course the pictures are blocked!

You have to tell yourself Oscar that if this is your first go at painting it is great you are not aiming for a concourse winner. A great way to do it and you will learn heaps from the experience. And now for my experience..... read stuff ups!

You said about building up filler. I have found it is always better to not expect the spray filler to do the job and better to sand it down further first. Where i did build up spray filler I found that later down the track it shows again, and can sometimes be polished out but one day it will be a problem. I vow to get it as smooth as I want to see it before the paint goes on.

Trying to answer this quickly so hope I don't miss bits. You said about cracked top coat. This has to all come off because regardless of filler it will always come back - and I am guessing you did this. As far as old filler goes though, if it looks ok and isnt cracked or lifting, on this car I would leave it and reckon you would still get a good finish.

I can't see what paint you are using - Acrylic laquer? That's all I have ever used. If so, what you are describing as dust and 'hairy' sounds like something I experienced before. I never worked out exactly what it was but stopped the problem in the end. It was like it was drying in the gun or at the tip and then flinging it on partly dry. My gun would start off alright and then start doing it. After massive dissapointment I tried the following:
- stop immediately, let it dry, sand it and then try again - maybe move to another panel in meantime.
- I found mixing more thinners worked better, i think it was pretty warm when it happened, are you working under heatlamps?
- after stoping I would pull the tip off the gun and clean it in thinners, put it back and with the can off the gun dip the end in the thinners, pull the trigger and aim at a board, old panel etc until the thinners pumps through, back into the can, maybe with a bit more thinners and try again.
- in frustration a temporary fix seemed to be holding my hand over the tip so you would hear bubbles in the can, and then aiming at the board, - i don't know but maybe blocked in the uptake pipe, too much air going through the gun and not enough paint coming up - air drying a bit before it makes it out the tip........ hence more thinner which seemed to work?


I'm really interested if anybody knows about this but meanwhile I hope something here helps. I just wish you were local and I would come around and show you what I am talking about.



And apologies that after being correctly accused of not putting out (never been accused of that - quite the opposite really!) I have to take some photos and post them. The car is now succesfully converted to lpg and has never gone better...... but more on that later. Still, things are looking pretty good now for the August 14 sprint. And Andreas was up on the weekend with his sprinter sorting out a few probs. Pretty funny with 2 identical white 116's..... plus this one and plus one car over here I know for sale for $700 i think but with a bit of accident damage..... would look like a factory team for our team event over here next year. Anyway, have to go and get back to this work shit!
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 09 June 2008, 10:27 PM
And of course I should give you a number because this probably wont make sense, 0421910935. If i am near a landline I can call you back esp at home have free national call deal.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 10 June 2008, 02:38 AM
I have a fair bit of experience with 2-K paints.  I agree with CraigB that preparation is the key.  I generally do all my shaping of filler with #100 grit, and then finish with #220 before any primer goes on.  This minimises the chance of scratches showing through the primer.  I then use standox 1-k etch primer - thin coat, just to get etch - and then the next day rub ut back with #600 until it shows NO orange peel or imperfections.  THen 2 or 3 coats of standox 2-k high solid primer, applied at 20 minute intervals with no sanding between.  HS primers have a better abilityto fill imperfections - but don't push your luck - because they shrink as they cure.  So you could fill scratches, sand it smooth, put your top coat on and next week the scratches show through - because the primer has shrunk back ino the scratches.  So I like to let my HS primer dry for at least 2 weeks before sanding it back, wet, with #600.  Again the surface must be perfect with no remnants of orange peel. 

I then put 2 coats of basecoat, 2 of clear, about 20min intervals (depends on ambient temp). 

The orange peel I see in your closeup pics is due to 2 issues :

a) orange peel in the primer that should have been rubbed back better
b) orange peel in the top coat.

Orange peel in the top coat is because its going on too thick/dry.  If the paint is too thick, or you spray too fast, you get orange peel.  Too thin or too slow, and you get runs.  Its a fine line between them.  I like to keep my paints on the thin side of the acceptable range.  I then spray at 3 bar (instead of the recoommended 4 bar) because then everything 'happens' slower, giving you time to react on the fly. 

Your spray patter should be set up to produce a stripe that is perpendicular to the gun motion.  Apray one band across the edge of the panel.  Subsequent bands should be put down aiming the centre of your sray pattern at the edge of the previous band.  Gun distance should be about 200mm from the surface.  It takes a bit of practice, but then you can regulate the paint quantity going down by slight adjustments to your gun sweep speed. 

Hope this helps a bit. 
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 10 June 2008, 04:06 AM
Thanks guys.  I had typed a response but lost it when my log on timed out whilst I was at work so I'll try again.

Quote from: craigb on 09 June 2008, 10:27 PM
this probably wont make sense,

No no, it makes complete sense.  Thanks for checking in again.  My first thought was that I was throwing out dryish paint, like silly-string until I got up close and could pick the lint out of the paint and noticed there was dust too.  I put it down to poor dust control and using terri toweling on other parts in the same enclosed space.  I've introduced airborn particles to the workspace. Furthermore, I received a small electric shock from the bonnet whilst spraying.  Both panels are sitting on plastic kids tables and gained a static charge whilst spraying.  This has no doubt attracted the airborn lint.  All the paints are enamels, no acrylics, except the inner guard black stone guard stuff which was water based.  I thought they might be better than acrylics for no particular reason at all.  I know the drying time is agonisingly longer.

Thanks for your other tips and observations.  True craig that it is my first attempt and I am learning a lot from the stuff ups that are an essential learning tool, plus there's so many variables to experiment with.  I'm not using heatlamps at all and curing the paint at less than room temp.  There's the two flow control and spray pattern controls on the gun and the pattern orientation which as sclass said, should be perpendicular to the gun's travel (found that out the hardway).  There's gun travel speed and the air pressure (I'm using 2-2.5 bar for that slow action but will confidently increase that to 3 bar after sclass' post).  I'll admit to not accurately mixing thinners with the paint.  I'm basically guessing the amount of paint I need then adding a bit more then adding thinners and watch the mixture slosh around the pot to judge viscosity.  Then spray and see on a spare bit of tin.  I know it sounds very crude but I honestly think I'm getting a good flow out of the gun that hasn't been "watered down" too much.  The paint has never come through too thin or transparent at all.


Quote from: s class on 10 June 2008, 02:38 AM
b) orange peel in the top coat.

Orange peel in the top coat is because its going on too thick/dry.  If the paint is too thick, or you spray too fast, you get orange peel.  
I'm guessing more to do with b) and with me spraying too fast after my frustration and subsequent hurried finish after I discovered I was spraying over dust and lint.  I sanded down the primer prior and got it smooth then used water then compressed air to clean the dust off.  This was done outside then moved into my garage.  (the first coat of lacquer on the quarter panel was done outside on a still day but turned it into a big white fly catcher :( )  But the variances of gun motion and layer thickness I think have been accidentally demonstrated on the bonnet although not clearly visible.  That is to say, some spots where gun motion, the overlap, the layer thickness, all combined to produce a smooth finish.  So I hit that sweet-spot in a few places.  I'm sure that only practice and identifying my mistakes will make the good occur consistently.

I agree too that preparation is the key, it has become all too obvious after the last week.  I know with more experience I'll improve.  I'd like to progress to 2K eventually one day but know there's a lot to learn still about preparation.   I know that if the base coat is crappy it shows through to the clear.  I think moreso if one day I try a clear over metalic, my possibly flawed gun motion I've read will show through the clear with the uneven deposit of mica flakes.

I've taken in all that you guys have said and will report back later in the week hopefully with finished panels.  Thanks for for your inputs. ;)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 10 June 2008, 06:16 AM
At home now and can see the pics. I was referring to something different but if anyone has that problem.....

I have never used enamel. I seem to recall reading old mags from the 60's and 70's where they told you how to successfully brush paint cars with enamel, I think it was all about thinners in the final brush or something. Anyway, the point is that judging by looking at the photos I reckon you need thinner paint and this will 'self level' to some degree, but not too thin so it runs away. Nothing lost though I would have thought because a good sand with a sanding block to get it smooth and sand out the dust and I would have thought you could just go over the top again. Perhaps som enamel experts are out there.

Certainly with acrylic you have that option that you can sand it back and spray over the top, looking on the bright side just a bit more practice! Good luck anyway and keep us posted.

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: kolin on 10 June 2008, 09:15 AM
after reading all this stuff, i have the guts to start on my 350.so much needs to be done, i dont have a garage, but a carport,if the winds not blowing..........
i will have to put it up on jack, brakes off, all the gubbins out, ie seats and what ever and get ready fro respray, i suppose a big part of the preparation is the taping everything up.
will post some pics.on a new post with a list of problems
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 10 June 2008, 09:39 AM
Well good luck kolin.   8)  Personally, I still don't feel comfortable enough to do my 350 just yet.  That's not to put you off from having a go either, I'm looking forward to seeing your results and how you go about it.  There's plenty of tips if you google that show achievements by others repainting outside.  Where I live it gets too dusty but at the moment it's good as there's been widespread rain but as I said before, there's too many insects about here at the moment and they just stuck to the slow drying paint.  :(

Edit:  I forgot to ask whether you want to stick with factory colour or you're going for something different.  Here's something for inspiration ;D

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9642/rallyebenzmj7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 10 June 2008, 08:23 PM
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/18696-4/DSC_0278.JPG) (http://gallery.w116.org/v/show_room/DSC_0278.JPG/)

OK so here is one photo of the car - very standard apart from the Ronal wheels and I intend to keep it that way.... unless i am looking for extra grip and some 15 inch rims could find their way on. More to come of the conversion.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 10 June 2008, 09:06 PM
Quote from: oscar on 10 June 2008, 09:39 AM
Well good luck kolin.   8)  Personally, I still don't feel comfortable enough to do my 350 just yet.  That's not to put you off from having a go either, I'm looking forward to seeing your results and how you go about it.  There's plenty of tips if you google that show achievements by others repainting outside.  Where I live it gets too dusty but at the moment it's good as there's been widespread rain but as I said before, there's too many insects about here at the moment and they just stuck to the slow drying paint.  :(

Edit:  I forgot to ask whether you want to stick with factory colour or you're going for something different.  Here's something for inspiration ;D

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9642/rallyebenzmj7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

That looks great Oscar!!!  I've already planned out my colour scheme, but i'll take some of this into consideration..  8)

Great to finally see this car Craigb!!!  Very keen to hear more about this conversion and work done etc..

Don't forget simo, if you spend a whole bunch of time on the painting then maybe have a 'close encounter' with any tyres at sutton - you could be a little angry..   :-\  I'm guessing this is a test bed though for maybe doing the 350 down the track?!

Now, i'm gonna be going to organise some decals for the 're-finishing' of Ol' silver... If you have any designs you'd like to forward etc, flick them on and i'll get them costed.  ;)

Cam.  :)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 11 June 2008, 07:50 AM
Craig, so thar she is 8)  Looks very nice.  You've got me thinking that I need to tint my 350's windows.  The white with tint looks fantastic.  Do I read your post correct that you're going to start with 14" bundts and standard tyres?  I'm kind of thinking that I might use up my stash of used 14" tyres before I fork out on decent 15" tyres for my fake pentas.  More on that when the time comes to shod Povo.

Cam, for the moment I'm planning on reproducing my own fake brand decals with my wife's die cutter plus a few generic cheap MB decals off ebay.  Haven't put too much thought towards it yet but you'll definitely see the results and maybe get an order if I fail.

I'm on days off now, woohoo!!!  1 more sleep to tool time. ;D
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 12 June 2008, 04:05 AM
Update, it's alive ;D

But first, yet again, more dust problems today but on closer inspection, the paint was reacting to something else.   They're all divots not lumps.  I think my air compressor spat some oil out through the hose when I was using it to dry the panels after sanding then washing.  My compressor doesn't have one of those glass attachments that catch moisture and presumably compressor oil.  (the name escapes for the moment). 

But although picturing the worst part, the rest is looking pretty good.  Still a couple more coats to go.  I also bought and used a random orbital sander with 180 paper on and it did wonders on the bumps and orange peel and dust in the paint. 

Not only that, after Craig and Sclass' posts, I decided to use less thinners.  The result, a thicker smoother coat with no runs.  8) I thought I had the mix right - clearly not so.

I also got the radiator in and hoses attached, oil hoses hooked up, coil and resistor reattached and kicked it over.  Of course there's a vid 8) but I think the Solex is going to give me curry.  I can't get the secondaries to open and the vacuum pot that closes them has a perforated diaphragm and doesn't work.  The secondaries can be pushed open easily but I'm not sure what they're supposed to be attached to to make them work.  I've got all the documentation I need to investigate it, it's just a matter of getting motivated to open the book.

The first time I started the engine (video below), it took a few goes but once going it was fine.  The smoke you see starting to emanate from the exhaust side is from a piece of rubber from god knows what sitting on the exhaust manifold.  It's gone now.  There's a couple of exhaust leaks but after tightening a few bolts, there's one more I'm trying to locate.  There's no Y piece from the manifold.  Somebody has dispensed with it and gone for two pipes maybe all the way through.  The second time I started it, the choke was wide open and whilst I could start it, it wouldn't idle for me  :( I'll tackle that problem when I go to time the thing.  IMO, the engine is very slow to respond to the throttle even when fully warmed but I have to revisit this when I get into the guts of tuning it.  I'm still in the reassembly stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVzZ-KuSDs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVzZ-KuSDs)



(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8803/imgp4452mediumei0.jpg)
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8882/imgp4453mediumcv1.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 12 June 2008, 06:04 AM
Oscar, I really recommend a filter dryer to go on there. Ones with a regulator are readily available and really cheap, say $30. I also undo the drain on the bottom of the tank and just blow off any water there regularly. I figure it has to be better for the tank but it doesn't take much to do it every hour or so while you are working and using the compressor a lot. The filter drier I have just has a button on it that blows off the moisture.

The tyres I have are a Yokahama that is pretty grippy but still a road tyre. These are secondhand and came with a car I bought but I used this particular model probably 10 years ago when they were the bees knees without going to slicks. These work incredibly well compared to the good condition standard tyres that were on there. The equivalent today is a Yokahama C drive and I have them on our Pug and are equally impressive. About $150 for a 14 so not the cheapest tyre you will buy but really not expensive either and I think fantastic value for money. If you go to around $250 a tyre you will get Yokohama AO42 (think that is right) and that really is a slick with a few grooves in it to make it legal. Depends what you are looking for I guess. I started using a pretty standard tyre on my Alfa and learnt about the car and its movements and then moved to the Yokos and instantly shaved several seconds off my time and it was just nicer to drive but wasn't tempted to go further. Anyway, hope that thinking helps.

Was just examining a solex for the first time on the weekend. the main secondary butterflys (down the bottom) seem to be mechanical in operation and those top butterflys seem to be to ease the cutting in of them (I guess so it doesnt get a big gulp of air in one hit and die ). Free revving it hard I couldn't get them to open but on the road you could feel a real pulse when they finally cut in. we stopped and played with that top butterfly and sprayed a bit of inox and lanotec mix and on the way home Andreas said the pulse was gone but still pulled hard. Can't help more than that but it did look a bit complicated. I guess once you sort it all out it is not such a mystery. Interesting info from 13b on here somewhere when he gave me links to an adapter plate and the right holley. Cost was something like $100 but in the end i just did the gas thing.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 12 June 2008, 06:58 AM
Good progress Oscar, you must be stoked.

I can only second what CraigB says about a regulator/trap combo.  Even a cheapo one is way better than nothing.  You must also install the trap some distance from the compressor (because the air is hot when it leaves the compressor, and cools down along the line, leading to condensation.  I have my compressor feeding 5m hose, after which is a combination trap/regulator.  Then another 3 or 4m hose to a cheap in-line trap mounted onto the base of the gun.  This setup was adequate even when I lived in a humid climate near the coast. 
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 12 June 2008, 07:23 AM
Must admit, this motor is smooth as opposed to the problematic smoke blowing other two 280's I've had running and there was no smoke or choking exhaust in the garage.  It's a good start to have a motor that looks like it doesn't need new gaskets or rings to get running properly.

I'll be purchasing one of those filter dryers tomorrow, thanks for the tips guys.

sclass, my elcheapo plastic hose burnt a hole in itself on the compressor the first day I painted, so I got a decent 10m hose so I could leave the compressor in the shed.   But one thing I noticed is that it takes some fiddling and adjustment of the regulator to get the right BAR setting because of the stored pressure in such a long hose.  I read this in a book not to get a long hose and now I think with these cooler days we're getting there's plenty of opportunity to get moisture build up in there but oh well.  In line filter is the way to go.

Craig, what you say about the secondaries, I've found that the dashpot that has the perforated diaphragm shouldn't be much of a concern.  It dampens the secondary butterfly's motion to stop that big gulp of air but I'll not know what effect it's performance will be like untill we're on the track going up hill at 5000rpm's I reckon.  If the solex dies for some reason, I'll be able to install the holley from the red 280S.  For now I think all's not too bad with the solex. I think it's in good nic after all.

I've just been out and wired up the headlights and got them working except the left side rear and front parking lights.  I just want to get these panels done and bolted on and tinker with the motor.  BTW, got a little ambitious too this afternoon and bought 4L of the same white paint.  I'm going to repray the lot but will just tape over trim and chrome etc.  It's how the car's been painted before but good or bad, my respray will at least make the car the same hue of white.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 13 June 2008, 05:25 AM
Got another couple of coats of paint on the panels.  I wont be doing the whole car unless the panels work out ok.  I bought an elcheap as possible filter/regualtor.  I searched for good ones that were up around the $150 mark but not only were they not in stock at a couple of engineering places I went to, but SuperCheap had these plastic things for $17 usually $45.  I thought what the hell and bought it.  Seems to be working ok for the moment.  I couldn't find anything that attaches to the gun.

I also spent ages on the wiring but didn't get far, still haven't solved the non working LHS park light.  I also made the brackets for the fan.  I was going to do a full boxed shroud and thought I'd practice on some sheet metal off the wrecked bonnet.  Apart from being a little too small it weighed a tonne so I just made small brackets to support the fan which are ample.  Got the fan temporarily going for a test and it didn't move whilst the fan spun up and down.  Will take it apart again tomorrow for painting of a few parts amongst other things.  I'll start putting some serious thought on how I want the fan to switch on.  Works a treat but I reckon perhaps nothing outrageously more than the OEM engine mounted fan.

Oh BTW, you may notice the car has moved forward.  I put small 11's in the garage:D . I also remebered to put a new bonnet cable in.  Still have to fix sticky throttle though I haven't experienced it yet.

Video of the fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0KejsXoFWE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0KejsXoFWE)


Ok, the real video of the fan :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMJGcaoagDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMJGcaoagDU)

(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5156/13062008412largeiz5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7229/13062008413largedu1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: s class on 13 June 2008, 09:51 AM
Very cool oscar (pun intended).  The first link is amusing, the second link is broken....
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 13 June 2008, 06:42 PM
Damn, thanks for pointing that out sclass.  All fixed now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMJGcaoagDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMJGcaoagDU)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: nathan on 14 June 2008, 05:37 AM
i 2nd ryans call.
that first vid is funny as hell, can only imagine how long you searched for that audio clip! :)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 15 June 2008, 05:56 AM
True, it took me just as long to put two sound clips together and match it to the movie as it did to put the fan in :D ::)

More on the fan in a sec.  Finally went for a test drive this evening finally ;D  I got jack of trying to get the paint perfect that I thought if I'm going to retouch the whole thing, might as well whack the panels on and go for a drive.  But there was more to it than that.  I've had two solid days working on the car and there's still so much to do.  A couple things I've learnt about the body stuff.  Again, suface preparation has such a big impact on the finish. Secondly, I can see why paying a pro is worth the money (presuming the pro is a pro in every sense)

Other things done today, replace brake caliper and pads on front right.  You've all seen the flatspot Cam created on the left side,  I thought it strange that there wasn't the same on the right front considering Cam stood on the brakes when skippy jumped out in front.  I've also noticed in the past couple of days some kind of liquid leaking on to the front right tyre.  Pulled the tyre off and sure enough, the caliper was leaking and coating the disc with fluid.  So I pulled a caliper from the brown 280 which was different so far as the pad pins and retaing spring was different, put a thick pair of pads in, washed the disc in petrol to clean it and it now works tops.  I also replaced both front tyres with ones of the red 280.  The last thing I did before the panels went on was replace the tie rod arm on the LHS.  I think my wheel alignment now needs adjusting ::)

So now, the vids and pics -
The first video is of the test drive.  I'd be interested to hear what people make of the bunny hopping in 2nd gear in the "2nd takeoff".  Is it clutch, carby, something else??  It drives alright and although it sounds fantastic, she aint that fast i think, but I've yet to change anything, still haven't done timing let alone shed some weight.

The second video is the fan fully completed.  There was a relay already installed by an autoelectrician presumably when R134a was put into the a/c.  After searching for wires and thinking about what I was going to do I thought I'd try my luck with the wires previously attached to the aux fan.  At best it would activate when the a/c switch was on, maybe.  Better!!  The fan turned on when the ignition switch is turned to II ;D  It's brilliant.  I mean, a stroke of luck really, I didn't have to rewire anything, just reattached the existing wires to a female plug I pulled off the brown 280's cruise control which clicked straight onto the male prongs of the fan.

Performance wise, without fan and at idle, the temp went to 96-100deg C.  With fan, it was below 80degC the whole time.

Test drive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4htFHawc8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4htFHawc8)

Fan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1D2UKzdJI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1D2UKzdJI)

Close up of fan finished.  The gloss black I painted it with ended up hammertone :-\  more to do with me cleaning the surface with thinners when the paint is actually acrylic.  Thought I would've learnt that lesson by now
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/732/14062008414mediumyq5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

A pic of the fan wire and the pulled apart plug from a cruise control actuator
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5790/14062008415mediumnf4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Brake fluid on the inner right fron tyre
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3955/15062008420mediumyg1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The reason there was no flat spot on that tyre.  Disc is coated with brake fluid
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5827/15062008421mediumdf8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Replacement and bent tie rod
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6552/15062008419mediumoa8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Blurry view from the front
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9550/15062008423mediumcn7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Blurry side view. Hmm, we had friends come round just before this and commented how the colour scheme resembles that of a Lebanese taxi.  Smart asses.
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7079/15062008424mediumyh6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Before the test drive - The young fella makes slight camber adjustments  :D  Nah, he was removing the mudflap ;D
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9701/15062008427mediumbg9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 23 July 2008, 01:00 AM
Right, where were we.

It's been a month since I've done anything major to Povo but finally it's on the road kind of.  Tonight/tomorrow I'm going to take all the trim off and give it that once over white colour.  First thing I wanted to do before worrying about aesthetics was to make sure the engine was fine.

Yesterday the cam cover come off and everything bar the cam lobes was all lacquered up.  I've gone Castrol Edge Sport full synth 10W-60 and used Castrol Multitraxx for the transmission.   I've done a quick front wheel alignment which isn't perfect but good enough to take it out for a spin and try the gear changes again.  Have to say the seem faultless now.  Also found there's about 7-8deg chain stretch.  I think that's just about it's limit, so that will need to be replaced.   The ignition was too retarded as well so I set it at around 7degBTDC.  Made a hell of a difference.  I didn't adjust the tappets as the feeler gauge was tight.   Having done a botched job of the 350's valves the other day I decided to leave well enough alone.

Having replaced nearly all the fluids I just got thinking that the clutch is bathed in fluid too, I think.  Does changing the oil in the gearbox mean the same as changing the clutch oil?  Is it one and the same?  I've had nothing to do with MT's before.

Anyway, here's a vid of another test run with the engine timed and new oils.   Glorious sound from the m110 8)

Video Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDE0k5fAgao&eurl=http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit2)

(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7707/22072008474smallwf3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9998/22072008475smallmu7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1148/22072008478smallnu1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4143/22072008479smalloi9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 23 July 2008, 09:04 PM
Hi Oscar

Definitely a dry clutch. The only clutch fluid I know is that in the hydraulic system to operate it. Really interesting to hear the effect of the trans oil. Like I think I said earlier, I have heard of this sort of thing before a number of times and good to hear that particular one worked for you in this car. If the effect doesn't continue, I would still try another oil or 'shandy' (like I think Ian suggested) before I went to the effort and expense of stripping a gearbox just for synchros. The 'box itself is still solid until you start to hear bad whining etc for bearings, layshafts etc.

I had wondered about oils for myself and making the synthetic leap which all reports seem to be positive on.

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 23 July 2008, 09:20 PM
Excellent, thanks for coming back on that.  Years ago during my teens I pulled a PTO clutch apart off a tractor to adjust it and that's the only thing I've ever had to do with servicing a clutch, but I remember it being bathed in whatever fluid it was supposed to be bathed in.  So I'm glad there's nothing to take care of here.  Clutch operation is good and yeah, definitely thumbs up on the gearbox, and after some running in, another change will be the way to go.

Re synth oil, (the forum's almost due for a regular oil debate :D ),   I was sold on the idea by Carl J plus the blurb on the oil companies' sites and haven't had any probs so far.    Basically I think whatever you use, as long as you change regularly she'll be right. 8)  But I just wanted something to be thick enough for racing which I assume this 10w-60 will be, plus the internal cleaning process will start too.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: kolin on 05 August 2008, 03:28 AM
Quote from: oscar on 23 July 2008, 09:20 PM
Excellent, thanks for coming back on that.  Years ago during my teens I pulled a PTO clutch apart off a tractor to adjust it and that's the only thing I've ever had to do with servicing a clutch, but I remember it being bathed in whatever fluid it was supposed to be bathed in.  So I'm glad there's nothing to take care of here.  Clutch operation is good and yeah, definitely thumbs up on the gearbox, and after some running in, another change will be the way to go.

Re synth oil, (the forum's almost due for a regular oil debate :D ),   I was sold on the idea by Carl J plus the blurb on the oil companies' sites and haven't had any probs so far.    Basically I think whatever you use, as long as you change regularly she'll be right. 8)  But I just wanted something to be thick enough for racing which I assume this 10w-60 will be, plus the internal cleaning process will start too.
oscar,when changing to synth oil you must do an oil flush.to remove the old detergents and ashes and various other chemicals as much as possible.
just run the engine for about 20 mins then replace again. apparently what happens if you dont, you get little balls of the old oil that float around and may change the fluidity  of the synth in certain parts of the engine, ie oil pump
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: Screamin TE on 14 August 2008, 05:09 AM
i know this would be considered sacrilidge and punishable by death, but have you considered a toyota supra 5 speed gearbox for the povo?

The iron case versions(as opposed to the alloy cased) are supposed to be virtually indestructable, also you would get a better spread of torque having that extra ratio.


Chris
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 14 August 2008, 05:57 AM
Quote from: Screamin TE on 14 August 2008, 05:09 AM
i know this would be considered sacrilidge and punishable by death, but have you considered a toyota supra 5 speed gearbox for the povo?

The iron case versions(as opposed to the alloy cased) are supposed to be virtually indestructable, also you would get a better spread of torque having that extra ratio.


Chris

Chris, my friend... the beauty of this car is that, it's already got a manual gearbox!!!  The merc 4 speed should be pretty much bullet proof also.  I know if I was going to convert my 3 speed auto, i'd put a supra 5 speed in.. but for now it's not on the cards..

But for what this car's gone through, and going to go through I think the 4 speed will be spot on..cause once she's going on the track, only 2nd -4th will be used anyway.. overdrive won't really make a diff.. i don't think?!  could be wrong.. and 1st gear won't really be used.. 

My 2c..
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 14 August 2008, 07:57 AM
Hi chris, I've always been interested to hear about possibilities for manual conversions assuming that a non benz box would be the way to go.   For me personally at the moment, as a beginner, I want to use the stock engine and manual trans combo with other mods along the way whilst keeping within a budget.  I haven't tested it on the track yet but like selfor50 suggests, I've got a feeling that the standard 4spd manual will do me for sometime in povo.  However, if I step up to a 450 down the track, I'd love to pursue a manual conversion like you suggest.  I would imagine it would be an expensive excercise though.  I'd have to pay pro's to do all the work, I wouldn't know where to start.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 14 August 2008, 05:33 PM
someone may well want to kill me for not mentioning this earlier, but last week I heard there was a complete 5 spd gearbox, flywheel clutch etc for a M116 W108. Starting point was $1000 and the same person told me there were no bids, but seems pretty cheap to me. I believe a conversion kit for "Supra is available for M116, but would cost you more than that.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 14 August 2008, 06:01 PM
Holy crap, it sold for $2,275.  I forgot about it.  I had it in my "watched items" but too much on and not enough $ at the moment.  

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280251709295&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 14 August 2008, 09:58 PM
Thanks Oscar, that makes me feel a bit better. At $1k it was a cheap manual box, but at $2+k, I don't believe they were the best to use 'box and the 5th gear is of no use on the track I would think. I recall a guy on Ozbenz with a W113 with datacard to say it left the factory with a 5 spd. I think this was a different 'box, but if it was right, you can imagine it would be worth paying that to get the right one.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 15 August 2008, 08:06 AM
This box was too much at 1k!!  I was looking at buying this box about 6 months ago.. according to the seller it was sticking in gears.

He sold me extractors that wouldnt' fit my engine bay.. .got half the cash back but still wasted bout $400 on them..

Good luck to whoever spent that much on that box!


You're right too craig, if it was the right box.. would definitely be worth the $$$... especially to put in a 116.

Cam. :)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 18 August 2008, 07:17 AM
Didn't get too much done this weekend on account of the 350 taking way too long to get the tappets adjusted unsuccessfully again, but I digress. 

After the outing down the street last time I decided to get into the body work to get it over and done with.  Povo is being stripped and sanded for a once over with an undercoat then the enamel white.  A bit of filling here and there but nothing over the top. I've removed the tow bar as well, mud guards and started in and under the dash to take out the a/c hoses and of course started her up for another big rev. 

Love the exhaust sound but there was a rattle which begged further investigation.  All three exhaust brackets under the car need attention.  The first one just needs tightening plus new donuts, the second one is missing with a rubber band in its place :( and the third one is held on by plastic ties.

I've noticed the steering has some freeplay but on closer inspection, the box is leaking and is covered with oil.  This was cleaned and dry when I did the high pressure cleaning of the engine bay.  I've got a spare or two and wasn't keen on replacing it but will have to.

I'm really not sure whether to put bumpers back on.  I probably will, I just wish they were lighter.

(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5203/p33mn1.jpg)
(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1782/p31bt9.jpg)
(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1946/p3fy5.jpg)
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4747/p32nx5.jpg)
(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5772/p34nr5.jpg)
(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/3861/p36fu1.jpg)
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/9067/p35ud9.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: kolin on 18 August 2008, 07:57 AM
oscar,
man i take my hat off to you.
now my BIG question is this.
how do you adjust the steering box.i have the 350 and there is b*gga all room to adjust let alone take a photo.
i had way too much freeplay , so i took it to some guy who was recomennded to me, turns out he is a real *****rs*h*l* and tightened the box up too much,now i dont have any freeplay and when you relaese the wheel when turning, it doesnt want to turn back to home.
thats one of the reasons i havent driven the car much since then, i dont want to damage things more.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 18 August 2008, 08:23 AM
That's a bugger about the steering box, and scrutineers like to see nice clean engine bays. If you have spare boxes, I would just suggest to think about when they were last used, and obviously that they were not leaking - just saying you don't want to go to that trouble and have it leak again from dried up seals etc. I noticed seal kits are pretty cheap, but don't know how hard to fit. Also obviously no point in putting seals that has wear in a bearing.

With the bumpers, if it is the same as here, it can effect what class you are in, but if you are like me, you aren't going for outright class victory, just racing your own times and those in your 'group'.

I noticed the rust on the A pillar, I found it on mine when I recently had the windscreen replaced (but luckily just on the pillar and not windscreen opening). Bit of a silly water trap really. My fix was a scrape, then I bought a great tool from supercheap which is a little air operated die grinder thing, but even a normal die grinder is cheap and easy (just a bit heavier). Then with a little grinder come engraving type bit in the end, it only took minutes to grind out the surface rust, also leaving a good 'key' for the POR15 to stick. Then being covered up, I didn't worry about top coat and I just put a healthy coat of mastic onthe back of the dried rubber seal on the trim. When screwed up tight, with a thin tip on the mastic I squeezed a bit extra to fill up the gaps (smoothed off with a srewdriver and once dry a bit, wipe over with a turps rag to smooth) and make sure water from the roof gutter goes out the very front and down and no moisture has a chance to stay up against the metal..... does that make sense? There would be other ways to do it, new seal etc, but thought I would just share how I worked out to do it cheaply, effectively and not visible.

Another tip that might help with 'scuffing it up for a quick repaint', but did you know you can get different grades of commercial 'scotchbrite' in big sheets and in rolls? Obviously for a concourse job you want to wet rub with a sanding block, but lots of water and the right scourer, particularly in tricky places (inside door jambs - behind bumpers etc) nothing is quicker. Even if you are not overly fussed with the finish, the last thing you want it to do is to have it flake off because it hasn't had the right key to bite into. I haven't worked out exactly where you live, but if you don't have a crash supplies place local, there must be a crash place and they will have it or can source it for you.

And on paint, I think we have had this conversation before and I think you have it all worked out, but I don't know much about enamel (having only used acrylic myself) but I was instantly worried about compatibility, need for isolaters etc. But I am too tired and lazy to go back and check out what was said and I just have this feeling that you have got that sorted.

And I love the exhaust too, but what I love best is redlining it through the gears and Mallala!! I am too tired now to rave on about what a great time I had on Sunday but I am very, very impressed with the car!! I don't know how many times I got asked "so what have you done to it?" - answer - nothing, that what a cheap, slightly worn, stock standard, base model W116 handles like straight 'out of the box'! (and just to rub it in that little bit more...on 6yo rubber free of a wreck I had.. and on gas and cost less than $20 for the whole day in fuel driving out there and all!!) Nothing like a well engineered car!

I had sick kids and bugger all sleep on the weekend, so didn't get organised with any in car camera but others got trackside footage which will appear once I get it. More later, but just to say  (as a bit of motivation for your work Oscar), your gonna have a heap of fun! More later in another post, together on my analysis for improvements, probs etc. and what I worked out in the day about getting it around Mallala quickly.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 18 August 2008, 09:59 AM
I've been eagerly waiting to see how your first outing went, I'll just have to wait another day or so ;)

Firstly, regarding the steering box kolin, I've never ventured past the steering coupling on the shaft unfortunately.   But for adjustment, there was mention of it not long ago.  I can't remember who now but I'm sure I read that you need an allen key to turn an adjusting screw.  Sounds too easy.  If it wasn't sclass that mentioned how to do it I'm sure he would know.  He's done a fair bit of work with steering boxes. 

My poor red 280S which was a stunner is supplying fairly new looking parts and it's steering box will be the next item to be donated.  It has no play in it and doesn't leak.  I think the last time its engine breathed was in Jan or Feb earlier this year.

Now about that bodywork, I'm too impatient not to use power tools.  ;D  And the finish will show ::) . I wont be too upset if I have the same problems as I did last time I painted, but fingers crossed it turns out drying to a brilliant sheen without being spoilt by illiterate insects that can't read "wet paint" signs. 

I've got one of those scotchbrite pads that will strip away that rust, it attaches to a powerdrill, and I'm doing something similar to what you've done.  I've got a tube of black stuff that I can't remember what it's name is now but basically I'll strip, fill with body filler if needed, prime, paint, then the mastik like stuff under the rubber gaskets where needed.  Because I don't know what type of paint is on the rest of the car, (it's been repainted at least once), the primer surfacer I'm using is supposed to act as an isolator or so I was told.  Will soon find out but I do wish I went acrylic.  Dries quicker and easier to use.  It's been way too humid and cold to paint lately.   By this weekend that high pressure cell over South Aus should have blown over finally and some warmer weather will come my way eventually and this painting will be done.  It'll be rough but it will be evenly rough ;D.

Looking forward to hearing more about Mallala.  You said you were on free tyres??  Damn, I was hoping for some feedback on Yokohama C-Drives.



Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 18 August 2008, 07:47 PM
Lookin' great oscar!!  Funny bout the exhaust... Don't know if I told you, but when driving to melbs that night (or albury coincidentally) when i'd give her a boot, when backing off it was dumping red sparks out the back... my guess was just carbon deposits that had built up from the previous owner driving it to sedately..

Are you gonna paint her just white all over, then maybe some decals?  Or you gonna add some black GT stripes in for good measure??


I'm also looking forward to seeing / reading how you went on Sunday Craigb!!  Can't wait for the footage..

Cam.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 18 August 2008, 08:04 PM
Yeah, I remember you saying about the sparks. The good thing is that it definitely wasn't caused by something dragging on the road. ;D  I reckon carbon deposits too.

Will go all white first with decals.  Once I've got a few runs under my belt and any mechanical probs sorted, then I'll be getting more creative hopefully.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 01 September 2008, 10:50 PM
This is turning to be more of a how not to paint a car tutorial rather than a race car build up.  For the past couple of weeks I've been struggling
to get a decent finish on the car.  The biggest advancement today was the purchase of a new quality gun.   I bought a Star gravity feed gun, cost was
about $160AU.  I wanted to get a HLVP (high volume low pressure) but the shop I go to starting price was $279AU.  Too much for me.  They only sell
quality gear and I didn't want to risk a cheaper ebay purchase.  Plus they're expertise and advice is worth the visit.

The difference between the new gun and the suction gun is chalk and cheese.  All guns pretty much looked the same to me and a couple of years ago
when I bought the cheap suction gun from a SuperCheap Auto shop for about $40AU with accesories (tyre gauge etc) I thought I could get away
with it.  Not so.  
The gravity feed has an air flow control valve which I'm sure some suction ones have too, but that along with the better adjustments and a clean uniform spray
pattern gave me more control over what I was doing plus way less overspray.  I can no longer blame the tools.  Any imperfections are my doing
from here on in.


Anyone contemplating a DIY respray, buy a quality gun.  $160AU for the Star one is on the cheaper side but definitely suits my needs. 
The nozzle is 2.0mm in case anyone was wondering.

New and Old
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3420/imgp4714smallhx2.jpg)(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9163/imgp4718smallsp8.jpg)[/URL]


Before I got the new gun, this is where I was at -

All masked up
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6074/imgp4686smallux7.jpg)(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2797/imgp4688smalluj0.jpg)




Primer/surfacer with a lot of banding using the old gun.  Unkown to me at the time, it was caused by a bit of gunk altering the flow of paint past the edge of the nozzle. 
Even when clean the flow from the nozzle wasn't perfect, unlike the the new gun whose flow around the needle before atomizing looks completely uniform.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/843/imgp4690smallyf3.jpg)(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9740/imgp4692smallsx1.jpg)
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6840/imgp4693mediumsmallap6.jpg)(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9208/imgp4701smalllz2.jpg)




For some reason I did a great job on the spoiler using the old gun.  It worked really well, nearly perfect.
(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9671/imgp4706smallcr9.jpg)




Shame about the rest though.  I have no idea what contaminated the surface.  After sanding the primer, I washed with new sponges and carwash,
then once thouroughly dry I used a new static broom to act as a tack cloth. 
(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8885/imgp4702smallgl7.jpg)(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6496/imgp4707smallgx3.jpg)




To make things worse, I discovered way too late the need to strain the paint prior to adding it to the pot.  The enamel formed a skin which kept blocking
the gun and throwing out blobs.  This was after the "measles" reaction I got above.
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6613/imgp4711smallvl1.jpg)




So after that, I did put another coat on using the old gun after giving it a thorough clean and straining the paint.   I had no blockages anymore but I couldn't
get a uniform spary pattern and the overspray was was hopeless.  I've tried all sorts of combinations of thinner paint, less pressure at the regulator,
adjusting the the flow rates etc and couldn't get it right.  To me the old gun is a typical example of you get what you pay for.  So the second top coat
went on then sanded.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9624/imgp4712smallwl3.jpg)




Enter the new gun
I should've really sanded that last coat right off then primed again because the result of the new gun is amazing.  The imperfections now are definitely
caused by the uneven surface underneath plus the odd rough spot showing through and dust of the older masks.  I shall lightly sand this one more time,
replace the masks then give a final coat.  After that, hopefully we'll be discussing mechanical issues and the next few steps needed to get Povo racing.

(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8990/imgp4715smallcy3.jpg)(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2605/imgp4717smalltw9.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: TJ 450 on 02 September 2008, 12:28 AM
Oscar, that's a huge improvement. Yes, that is a good example of "you get what you pay for".
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: kolin on 02 September 2008, 01:06 AM
oscar, re the pics where you got blobs of missing paint and you strained the paint and still could not come right, i had a bit of that problem and i put it down to not having shaken the paint properly, what i should have done is gone to the shop and had them put it one the shaking machine to mix the colour and oils together.
i may be wrong and maybe someone else can enlighten us.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 02 September 2008, 01:40 AM
Thanks for the report Oscar and I had wondered about the gravity feed guns. My suction gun is a Star, which I bought from a crash supplies place who said it was a good quality copy of an Iwata gun. He had an Iwata there and you could see how identical they were but the Iwata much more expensive.

That real sort of fish eye effect on the boot looks like what I had with water or oil getting in the line from the compressor, but you have a trap on the outlet now don't you. Anyway, point is that you are onto it now and if the new gun works who cares!

Thanks for sharing your experience.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 02 September 2008, 02:01 AM
TJ, after braking a few cheap spanners I decided some time ago only to buy good quality tools.  Not top of the range but stuff like Kincrome for example.  The old gun was a remnant from the bad days but if I bought better quality from the start I think in the long run I would've saved money.

kolin, I like your thinking. I can't explain it any other way particularly as I put two coats of primer on the whole thing first and didn't had a similar problem with the undercoat.  When I picked up this colour paint tin, which was sitting dormant for about 2-3 weeks, it was about half to three quarters full and I shook it by hand back and forth and upside down without opening the lid.  The guy at the engineereing shop said a skin would've formed and most likely from me pouring left overs containing thinners back into the tin.  I honestly can't remember if I did or didn't all those weeks ago when I was just doing the bonnet and quarter panel.

Second time round though I used a drill (bosch of course ;D ) and a drill mounted paint mixer and gave it a good long twirl in both directions, then used a kitchen mesh strainer and to top it off, the gravity feed gun also has a fine screen filter in the pot.  The result is I didn't have a relapse of measles.

Craig, the water trap/regulator I have is on the compressor before a 10metre line.  I'm not completely ruling out moisture though.  I went to the same engineering shop to find an inline filter that connects to the gun.  They didn't have one to show me but could order one, the cost was $220AU  :(  So before I used the new gun I put the hose out in the sun and let the line blow out completely.  Whether that or reduced air consumption of the gravity feed or both, there was no repeat.  Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

Paint mixer
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5585/imgp4728smalldw2.jpg)

Oh, and another thing I learnt or should have by now - I hand wet sanded the primer coat.  Fantastic result.  But after the disappointing colour coats I used a random orbital sander on all the flatter parts using a 180 grit i think.  It felt smooth but the colour coat doesn't fill fine scratches.  See the result below between a spot with swirl sand marks and a spot that was hand sanded.  But once this is dry I'll hand wet sand again with but smoething like a 300+ grit.

Random orbital prior to top coat.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6253/imgp4722mediumki7.jpg)

Hand wet sanded prior to top coat,  8) now to make the rest of the car look like that.
(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/527/imgp4719mediumsu2.jpg)


Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 05 September 2008, 04:08 AM
This thread's getting too long but finally, I think we can call the painting finished.  On monday all the bits will go back on.  I've been hampered due to the amount of pollen that covered everything.  A windy few days and Spring doing its thing has made less than perfect conditions for spraying.  So it got washed again late last night (midnightish) then tacked this morning. Unfortunately there was still a bit of dust about and lint from my new lint free rags.  The prepwash I have is for bare metal only, that's why it dissolves the paint so I didn't use it.  Just plain water.  Anyway, the surface seemed clean.  There were still imperfections, runs I hadn't sanded down far enough plus those divots but all's ended well.  I've learnt a lot though.  Just wish I had bought the good gun sooner.


Anyway, the end result, straight from Thunder Road, "Grease Povo":D

(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1065/greasew116xh0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Couldn't help myself, the kids were watching the movie yesterday. ::)

So seriously, here it is -
Most of the car looks like this, the odd bit of dust and divot but generally looks good.  Too much orange peel on the boot.  I ran out of paint and went and bought another tin.  4 litres just in case  ::)  All up I've used 7 litres of topcoat  :o 

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/583/imgp4744smallfo7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3209/imgp4743mediumdf1.jpg)
(http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4440/imgp4745mediumfk5.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: TJ 450 on 05 September 2008, 09:40 AM
Oscar, povo's looking awesome. 8)
Once you've got the trim back on it's going to look brilliant.

Tim
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 05 September 2008, 08:52 PM
Thanks TJ.  I'm looking forward to lining up both povo and the 350 for a photo.  They'll look identical.   Though povo will take on a Shwarzenegger accent and say "My name is Povo and I am your twin bruzzer"  :D  As far as the 350's concerned, it doesn't talk, it's a car. ;D
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: SELfor50 on 06 September 2008, 02:32 AM
Quote from: oscar on 05 September 2008, 08:52 PM
Thanks TJ.  I'm looking forward to lining up both povo and the 350 for a photo.  They'll look identical.   Though povo will take on a Shwarzenegger accent and say "My name is Povo and I am your twin bruzzer"  :D  As far as the 350's concerned, it doesn't talk, it's a car. ;D

HAhahaha.... love it!!  "Get doooowwwwnn.." ;D

Lookin' shmicko Oscar!!!!  Great work.  Cant' wait to see it with the trim back on...

Cam. :)

PS.  Grease Povo??  not bad... you'll need to post up the you tube clips of you and the lad's building it / singing at the same time.  ;)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 06 September 2008, 06:46 PM
Well done Oscar. Regardless of extra paint or imperfections etc, you have got valuable experience that you wont ever get from a text book or talking to others.

Water trap wise, I have only got what you have and don't have probs. The only extra thing I do is use the drain on the tank of the compressor to blow off water before, during and after using it.

Sandpaper wise, I don't know if I have ever read a definitive guide to what to use. I probably have gone OTT but while I have used mechanical sanders to get paint back, I have always wet rubbed with 400 before and between coats of primer and wet 600 before the top coat. I think that came from seeing dads car professionaly crash repaired and seeing orbital marks always coming back through the paint.

Perhaps you have a definitive guide for us Michel?
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 10 September 2008, 07:44 AM
Well, over the past few days I've finally put povo back together again taking much longer than I expected.  It was supposed to be finished two days ago.  All fasteners ended up in one bucket during dismantling and it's been a nightmare wading through them trying to remember which one goes on where.  Some small improvements on the way have included exhaust mounts where one mount was replaced and all rubber donuts were replaced, all with figure of eights except the middle mount I used round ones.   The sills were repainted black too.
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6438/imgp4783mediumqp4.jpg)
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4797/imgp4781mediumyw3.jpg)
(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8123/imgp4780mediumgu5.jpg)
(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6936/imgp4778mediumfm5.jpg)

Lots of water in the carpets thanks to my careless pressure washing so whilst the carpets are drying, the interior will be stripped over time.
(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/9392/imgp4782mediumvl5.jpg)
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2919/imgp4786mediumpt9.jpg)
Unfortunately, whilst attaching the speedo cable to the instrument cluster I pulled the end off.  After 2 and a half hours I had replaced it with the one off the Milan brown 280.  But whilst under the car I was checking out the transmission and noticed that the linkages had no bushes left.  It was metal on metal basically.  Craigb, did you have the same problem?  Can you get the bushes still?
(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1328/imgp4789mediumqw0.jpg)


The front left corner caused a few headaches.  Everything was just tight and a bit of bending here and there was needed to make everything fit.  There's my original weld job which may have been short by a few mm  and every panel I've used as replacements which I originally thought were straight I soon found out whilst stripping them that they had been bent and dented previously and filled.  But the end result although a little crooked is satisfactory considering.
So, there she is, all back together.  Now it's time to race prep it because after all this time, it's no different to any other road going w116.
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9184/imgp4790mediumat5.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: TJ 450 on 10 September 2008, 12:43 PM
That's looking spectacular. What's first on the list regarding improvements for the track?

Tim
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: Big_Richard on 10 September 2008, 06:34 PM
.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 10 September 2008, 07:16 PM
Leaving the covers on for a comfort ride around the racetrack.  I may not be the fastest so I might as well enjoy the trip round ;D

Regarding improvements TJ - Discounting a some fixes to do like the gear selector bushes and a few other things, in no particular order;

- the woolies will go, interior stripped, replaced with two race seats with harnesses.
- leather steering wheel which I got not long ago
- 17 x 8.5 wheels are coming and will be reshod with I don't know what yet.
- brakes and suspension.  A big topic itself, I have to get race pads and basically lower and stiffen the car.  Initially I'll cut springs.
- large fat wheels and lowered suspension may require some panel work.
- some kind of modded cold air intake and filter.  Possibly a discrete scoop in the bonnet on the left feeding the carb.
- weight loss, another big subject. I want the bumpers to stay and they're light without all the iron bracing and mounts so I'll eventually build a set with simple custom mounts.  This will be an ongoing quest to lighten her up a bit.

Thats about it. Not going to touch the motor or carb just yet.  Need to learn how it handles as is for a while.  I also got a tube of that loctite blumaxx that craigb used and will seal around the cam box.  There's just a slight leak which may cause attention.

Decals etc still to come. 8)

edit:  I forgot - a locked diff eventually too.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 10 September 2008, 11:42 PM
Yes the bushes are available. I also had probs with the gearlever arangement itself and got those also, but they were a bit pricey. I thought I saw those bushes on Autohaus but can't see them now, just the clips on the end.

Car looks fantastic.

Interesting about the diff, I thought it would be a problem, but with our power to weight, with a grippy tyre, and the great suspension that I can see from the video keeps the wheels nicely on the ground, didn't seem a major problem at Mallala. My Alfa used to lift a rear wheel until I removed the rear swaybar, but obviously its 'vintage' live axle is no comparison to the independent benz.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 10 September 2008, 11:53 PM
That is very interesting Craigb.  I was always going to try the diff as is first but assumed the gearing and diff ratio would lend itself to spinning the inside wheel.  If I don't need to do it I wont.  We'll see how I go.  I'll have a look for the bushes online but I might just make a few calls tomorrow.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 12 September 2008, 04:20 AM
Four used rims arrived today, two with good Falken tyres, or good enough to mount those two Falken rims on the front and check Falken clearances then take povo for a Falken spin ;D

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4025/imgp4793mediumbj1.jpg)
So, the specs.  Fondmetal rims made in Italy 17" x 8.5" wide and an offset of 13.  They look like monsters compared to bundts or steelies.  The two tyres are Falken G something 235/45/17 and look like they have the same rolling diameter or close enough to the stock 205/70/14's.  Standard Lug bolts for bundts were used also.
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4996/imgp4795mediumxz8.jpg)
I was a bit worried how close these things might come to fouling the suspension and other bits but it was good.  At full lock there can be some contact with springs when the car was suspended but after taking it for a ride I didn't notice any scrubbing when I came back.  Still haven't tried putting them on the rear but i can't imagine there'd be a problem.
(http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/2859/imgp4799mediumrd6.jpg)
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7839/imgp4800mediumfy4.jpg)
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3075/imgp4796mediumpu0.jpg)
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4389/imgp4801mediumyl8.jpg)
Yeah I forgot to inflate the tyres before taking photos but how did they handle. Woeful, just like the 14" rims mind you.  Only because my steering is up the creek with an alignment still pending, (there's still toe out and positive camber to fix), plus there's freeplay and a leaking steering box, so the box needs swapping out.  But full points for clearance.  I can imagine though that with a suspension upgrad and a couple inches lower the front fenders will need cutting like selfor50's car was or a widebody modification which would be uber cool.
(http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1776/imgp4805mediumjg7.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 21 October 2008, 08:22 AM
Been over a month since the last update but in that time I got a boxful of parts then some.  Most are little easy bits but out of all the things to be done, today was eventful with new tyres and and wheel alignment done.  My only disappointment is that the steering in a straight line is still very floaty.  The more I played with things tonight made me realise it's the play in  the steering box.  Way too much movement.  Whilst I've got a kit to reseal the box I think I'll just swap it out if I can't adjust it in situ.

Here's what else has been done. 

Bushes for transmission levers.  There was nothing left of the old ones.  Before and after shot. Still have to change gear oil to a thinner one.

(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3132/26092008523mediummh0.jpg)
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2795/26092008525mediumjd0.jpg)


If you look further up the page there's a pic of the interior with wooden gear lever and collapsed covering.  I preferred something more grippy so I just bought original.

(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8398/26092008527mediumaf1.jpg)


Left upper control arm was suspect.  Inner bush was rooted and the ball joint had a bit of play.  Replacing this arm alone led to a big improvement in stability whilst driving.

(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8366/imgp4830mediumyw2.jpg)
(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/615/imgp4831mediumuf0.jpg)
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4583/imgp4833mediumeu3.jpg)
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/771/imgp4928mediumjl3.jpg)


Lastly, new tyres.  Whilst I wanted r-specs then was going to get Yokohama S-Drives on account of affordability but I was severely accidentally underquoted for the S-Drives.  Then these Pirellis came along.  The Pirellis are virtually unused (600-700km travelled) off a new car that ended up with Michelins.  These tyres are Pirelli P Zero Nero 235/40ZR17 (90Y), all four for $640AUD.  I was originally going for 45 series Yoko S-Drives but figured a 40 series tyre would give just a tad more acceleration.   It didn't feel too different to be honest.  (Maybe I should use the accelerator more ;D ). You can see the difference in height from a 14" tyre below.  45 series on the other hand have virtually the same diameter as the stock 14"s.

(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2441/imgp4919smallex4.jpg)
(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/73/imgp4920smallun2.jpg)

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 21 October 2008, 09:38 PM
Interesting stuff Oscar. I haven't adjusted one of these boxes, but just be careful that by removing the straight line play doesn't make it stiff when turning.

You have me thinking about the tyres though. The problem is you can't try before you buy, but buying secondhand (even though I know yours are nearly new) might give me a chance to cheaply try something else. At Mallala I have way too long legs, so I was thinking about going as low profile as I can on the 14's. This may help the acceleration and better use of the gearbox but will it upset the geometry for the suspension designed around a larger radius? Of course I will share any findings.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 22 October 2008, 02:06 AM
There's more to the story with trying these 40 series 17" tyres out.  Although I say they don't feel faster something else has happened, I've got no full throttle.  At the moment when I accelerate I get to a certain point where I think the secondaries are opening but the car sounds like I'm applying a jake brake from a truck.  I put a bit more fuel in coz it was getting low but still no joy.  I have to read my manual about the solex to see what's going on but in the mean time, see what you think.

280S with Jake Brake ::)  the sound is a tiny bit out of whack but any time I push the pedal to the floor it looses power.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Sjrgrvb5tjU&hl=en&fs=1
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: TJ 450 on 22 October 2008, 09:06 AM
It sounds like something's out of whack, like all of a sudden the fuel is cut. :o

Tim
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: koan on 22 October 2008, 02:06 PM
Do I hear a backfire sometimes when stand on it?

If yes, I'd agree with lack of fuel.

koan
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 22 October 2008, 03:12 PM
On the lack of fuel, could vac leak and therefore lean mix be doing the same thing?  I suppose it could.  There's a few things I have to look at for vac leaks but this car has no central locking components and I haven't been able to tell yet whether it's been removed and not plugged.  Was there ever such a thing as a w116 without central locking?

I've also noticed the idle is high.  It was always high but I think it's picked up a bit. 

There was one hint of a backfire at the beginning.  I haven't noticed backfiring on this car but then again, if I floor it when the engine hasn't fully warmed up it will.  In the video the coolant was over 80degC.   Today I'll look for a backfire.  The thing is, remember how the red 280S (with Holley) used to backfire easily.  The way to avoid it was use the accelerator in two half steps when going to full throttle.  I think I'm so use to doing that now that I do it in Povo without thinking about it.

After reading a bit in the manual, I'm positive it has to do with the secondaries, ie lack of fuel from coming thru its jets perhaps but I fell asleep reading it all last night :D I think I'll have to start again.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: craigb on 23 October 2008, 05:39 AM
It is interesting. Yes seems like you are opening up this big influx of air but not being able to get fuel to it. Vacuum leak alone I don't think would have that much affect. I assume vacuum to the secondaries within the carb is working otherwise it wouldn't behave in this starved manner. And what has changed? Is there a pump jet to the secondaries? I don't think there would be with vacuum secondaries, and even then, I think there would be a stall from not getting the pump squirt but once the other jets cut in you would think it would start kicking back in, which it doesn't. And what has changed for such a sudden impact? With a 4bbl too, to have both secondary jets cut off at once seems a little odd, but maybe they are fed by the same passage. For me, I reckon I would pull the carby off and give it a good clean out - seems a bit of an obvious suggestion! Anyway, just thought I would think out loud about it in case it helps in anyway. Maybe pull the air filter off and get someone to rev it while you watch from under the bonnet and see if there is anything obvious.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 23 October 2008, 02:52 PM
Well I've narrowed the problem down and almost got it back running properly yesterday.  Speaking of secondaries, the flaps above them are supposed to be closed at rest.   At the beginning of Stage II those flaps or air valves remain closed for a short time.  Of course a little air gets past but the vacuum created underneath sucks fuel through the bypass jets.  Then as the vacuum increases and air flow increases, the air vlaves open right up exposing the Stage II jets.  There's a vacuum dashpot connected to the shaft of the air valve.  It's job is to make the transition further moderated by controlling how slowly the air valve opens for full throttle.  So spring tension aside, without it, the air valve can open suddenly and fuel supply through jets is affected adversely.

This is pretty much what's happening with mine.  The spring tension had virtually gone for the stage II air valve.  Plus, the dashpot is leaking but always has.  Add to that, the air valve's shaft was stiff to move.  Lots of crap in the joins and bearings.

So when I go full throttle, the secondary air valve jumps open.  There's no vacuum below the air valve to suck fuel through the bypass jets to begin stage II let alone fuel coming through the stage II jets.  No fuel, no power. 

So I should be able to retension this valve spring.  Easier said then done.  I can't find the sweetspot.  The manual's got a plan for a  custom test tool to calibrate the air valve.  I can't make it.  I'm also wondering whether I can get away with a dodgy dashpot.  The manual refers to stage jump without it, which I don't mind, but the second stage has to be operative.


I removed the inline fuel filter thinking it might be a restriction.  I couldn't find anywhere in manuals where the fuel filter is on these carby cars.  There's nothing in the back like the FI cars.  There's just the screen in the fuel tank and a pre filter in the Solex.

(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5764/imgp4936mediumvx0.jpg)


Pre filter in Solex

(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3091/imgp4937mediumec2.jpg)


View of the Solex

(http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/987/imgp4838mediumnp3.jpg)


What needs adjustment

(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/7569/imgp4942mediummw7.jpg)


Removing and cleaning the air valve componets made a big difference.  Before it would bind when moved.  It needs to be frictionless almost for an attempt at calibrating to be worthwhile.

(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/805/imgp4943mediumgb3.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 27 October 2008, 09:49 AM
 
Quote from: craigb on 23 October 2008, 05:39 AM
For me, I reckon I would pull the carby off and give it a good clean out -

I didn't want to but it's the best thing I've done so far.  The Solex is back and better than ever. ;D  I found a bucketload of info on the web the other night, mainly from BMW forums but although nothing pinpointed my problem there was enough info out there to give me the courage to take it off and strip it.   Three problem areas existed.

1.  It was full of crap and crud.  Little tiny metal shavings came out of the fuel bowl plus lacquer in the primary jet valves and the secondary fuel valves were binding. I used a can of carb cleaner and it did wonders.  I blew out all the jets and vents and flushed any bit of sediment out or off the carb.

2. The float valve is adjustable by way of bending the arm going to the float.  To me this seemed too far bent thus causing a restriction of fuel during high loads. 

3. Most importantly, there is a bakealite cam connected to the secondaries' air valve shaft.  When they open, the cam operates a lever to open the secondary fuel valves.  My thinking is that the binding of the secondary fuel valves and the forced mechanical movement of the secondary air valve has led to this cam breaking.  The result is that the fuel valves remain closed and no fuel enters the secondary barrels. 

The first picture shows the extent to which I pulled the carb apart.  Note to the left of the pliers is the air valve shaft, then the lever to operate the secondary fuel valves. 

(http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/5563/27102008564mediumyv6.jpg)


The second shot shows the broken cam that is mounted on the secondary air valve shaft and sits inside the "U" shaped section of the lever for the secondary fuel valves.  A bit of Araldite and a few hours wait it was right to go.

(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9084/27102008560mediumjz9.jpg)


Third shot is what happens to a nokia when left on a rag soaked with carb cleaner :(

(http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/8314/27102008563smallhg1.jpg)

So although the camera still works,  I wasn't in the mood to take anymore shots or video of the test run but by midnight I had the carby back on and went for a spin and the result is fantastic.  The car runs smoother at lower speeds and the full acceleration is back.  There is still a little bit of tweaking to do , especially to the idle mixture and spring tension to the secondary air valves but I'm happy for the moment to know it's working again 8)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: koan on 27 October 2008, 10:27 AM
Quote from: oscar on 27 October 2008, 09:49 AM

Third shot is what happens to a nokia when left on a rag soaked with carb cleaner :(


Funny about that, I did the same thing with the portable house phone a couple of weeks ago.

Do you reckon the glued up cam is up to it? What about a bit of brass and a few hours with files etc.?

koan
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 27 October 2008, 10:38 AM
Although the secondary fuel valve is very light to operate I've got my doubts how long the cam will last to be honest.  Furthermore I can't find these cams available anywhere and they're not available in the rebuild kits.  So I think brass would be a perfect replacement.  I think a thick brass shim or thin plate etched to the correct shape would do the trick.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 06 November 2008, 08:30 AM
The cam is surprisingly holding together.  The cars done maybe 100km's since then on a few trial runs and is still opening the secondary fuel valves.  Haven't had a chance to make brass ones like wanted and instead have attended to other need to do things.  Primarily the steering box and vacuum dashpot for the solex.

The dashpot has simply got a leak so I thought why not cut it open and repair it.  I cut a small patch from a kids tyre repair kit but it wouldn't hold despite the surface being cleaned.  I was going to give up and I just used what I had on hand which was araldite.  Competely wong product to use but I did and it's working, though I need to change it.  It's slowly leaking again  from the same spot I hope, after working well for a while.  Need to use something with a bit more flex like silicone.  I put it back together using two blobs of solder which is holding well.  The cut was on the vented side not the suction side so no need for an air tight seal there.

(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3438/imgp5050mediumcg7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4338/imgp5051mediumrz4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/940/imgp5052mediumxj0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5710/imgp5077mediumdd7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)




The big job was the power steering box.  It took me about 12 hours over 3 days.  Most of that was due to being a first timer and lessons learnt along the way.  Undoing all the bolts and things isn't too bad, it's the wrestling with the box and alignment that I had difficulties with.

Although I have removed and replaced a coupling before and had real trouble with the allen bolts, these looked like they were going to give me hell too when my tool slipped in one of the heads so I soaked both in INOX then did something else for a while.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3261/imgp5011mediumez8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4510/imgp5012mediumtg1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I took off the pitman arm.  All that muck is due to the steering fluid leak from the box.  The nut is a 36mm big one so I had to go buy one of those.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4866/imgp5053mediumtk8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/687/imgp5054mediumka8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

In order to remove the coupling though I had to allow the shaft to be withdrawn.  I just took off the inner and outer circlips that hold that bearing and subsequently the shaft.  I then mount the steering wheel and by hand apply the 22m retaining nut and give the steering wheel a pull.  That should free the coupling from the steering shaft or the steering box.  Either way the coupling can be slid or prized off both shafts afterwards.
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/757/imgp5009mediumgs4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Next thing is to remove the high pressure and return lines from the box then remove the three bolts, accessible in the driver's side wheel well, that hold the power steering box to the engine bay.  In a 280 the box was removed by lifting it up throught the engine bay.  Took a fair while of manipulating it to fit past hoses etc.  The manual suggests removing the ball joints of the track rod and the drag link from the pitman arm.  Would've made it easier to ease the old box down rather than lift it through the engine bay.  Here's a pic of replacement(left) v old.   On the ground the the old one's freeplay was noticeable by hand, feeling a knock when it changed direction.  The replacement felt smooth.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6425/imgp5056mediumfq1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

So putting the new one in, I lowered it through the engine bay and rested it on whatever was in the way to stop it from falling on the ground.  I slid under the car and held the box in one hand and applied the bolts with the other.  Surprisingly, although the box is heavy, this took no time at all and although I thought I might have needed assistance from another person, it wasn't needed.
When I came to put the Pitman Arm on I struck a bit of trouble.  It was too hard with the track rod still attached.  It was physically limiting my movement of the Pitman Arm making the alignment of the notches impossible no matter which way I had the alignment notch facing on either box or arm.  So I removed that ball joint and got the alignment I was after then screwed on the big 36mm nut.
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5420/imgp5065mediumhg1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3884/imgp5066mediumjz3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I took out the bolt that covers the alignment hole for the shaft.  Seen below is a gap in the box's piston where an alignment bolt would go to get the box in dead centre.  No idea where to get that bolt so I just viewed it and turned the input shaft as necessary.  The pic below shows it not quite centred yet.
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/774/imgp5068mediumar1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Be damned if I could get that coupling to go on right though!  In the process of getting the steering shaft and the box's input shaft far enough into the steering coupling so the clamping bolts clamp over the right indents, I had inadvertently shortened the steering shaft.  These shafts are telescopic and a few blows with a mallet at the end whilst trying to put the coupling on will shorten the steering shaft.  Whilst you can adjust the length in situ,  I decided to remove it, it seemed easier.
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1313/imgp5075mediumeh1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/374/imgp5069mediumxh8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Seen here is the hole on the left being obstructed by the thinner part of the shaft telescoping into the thicker part.  I adjusted it back by putting the thin part in a vice and hitting laterally the thick section at the point where the thin section meets.
(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6533/imgp5071mediumli6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Once lengthened I loosely put the shaft back in the steering column then attached the shaft to the coupling.  With the box in alignment I then made the alignment notch on the steering shaft (at the end facing the driver) point straight downwards (straight upwards for LHD cars).  It appears in a pic further above.  The shaft and coupling were then prized onto the steering box's input shaft.  No hammers or mallets, the shaft and coupling are prized onto the box's shaft by levering at the notch at the left on the shaft towards the firewall with a long screwdriver .  Once the notch become fairly visible I had to use something to act as a pivot between the end of the steering column jacket for my long screwdriver. 
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2755/imgp5073mediummo6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I put the steering hub back together and applied replacement race steering wheel.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8561/imgp5076mediumcg7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The result was that it drove fantastic and didn't float around on the straights.  Steering was much tighter, not just due to the smaller diameter wheel.  Freeplay is still there but nothing like before.  I don't notice it.




I also replaced 3 main coolant hoses up front, changed engine oil, Super Dot4 brake fluid bled in, new PS fluid and before I put the new oil in I tool off the old dented sump and replaced it.  The newer one is a w123 style with a much smaller bolt for a plug rather than the trditional bigger 14mm allen plug.

(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9074/imgp5057mediumoh0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4020/imgp5058mediumvu7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6813/imgp5060mediumxu4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5302/imgp5061mediumqa8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2136/imgp5063mediumau0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: koan on 06 November 2008, 09:32 AM
Lot of work and expense there oscar, must be seriously depleting the 6.9 fund ;)

Don't understand what all belting and prising of the steering coupling is about, it should just slide on and off.

The bolt shank won't slip over the splines on the steering box, the bolt needs to be removed completely.

koan

Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 06 November 2008, 10:05 AM
You know, last year I had a couple of chances early on to buy sub $2k 6.9's but I opted out since we were building at the time. If I was given the same opportunities in May this year before I acquired Povo we might be discussing 6.9 issues not Solex's.  Not to worry I suppose, I've well and truly compensated by indulging in this pursuit since then and the cheap 6.9's have all but disappeared.  Will do an approx tally of costs soon but I don't think I could race, keep the 350 and have a mediocre 6.9 needing attention.  One would have to go.  I dread the thought of having to choose.  What's that saying, -- you wont miss what you haven't got -- What bollocks! ::)

Steering coupling - The clamping bolts were removed but although the shafts of the box and column were clean and undamaged I couldn't get either to go all the way in.  They slid in half way no problem.  That's when I banged the steering shaft from inside the cabin and consequently shortened it.  Then after removing and lengthening it I found the notch that could be used as a levering point and that worked really well.  It drove the coupling and shafts into place so then the clamping bolts could be inserted into the right spots.  Maybe because the coupling was a used one it was a bit tighter than a new one.  I had similar probs with the 350's and reusing the old coupling.  Just a real snug fit is all and not enough room to grab it by hand and shove them all together.
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: koan on 06 November 2008, 05:56 PM
Quote from: oscar on 06 November 2008, 10:05 AM

You know, last year I had a couple of chances early on to buy sub $2k 6.9's


If I had the room I'd collect them at that price.

Quote

Steering coupling


When I think about it I have had to jam a big screwdriver in the clamping split to get it off.

That closeup of the coupling is excellent - it shows it correctly installed with the coupling extending beyond the start of the spline on the steering box shaft. It's all to easy to get it wrong and have the clamping bolt go through above the shaft rather than in the groove.

koan
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: TJ 450 on 06 November 2008, 11:09 PM
That's coming along nicely, Oscar. I reckon you'll have one of the cleanest 280s' around by the end of this exercise.  8)
It's amazing the difference a fresh sump makes in terms of appearance.

Tim
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: John Hubertz on 08 November 2008, 10:26 AM
Wow - congrats.

And the wrinkle-finish on the Nokia doesn't look too bad.

Melt ALL the phones IMHO - I despise telephones.

This one has its merits - I wish all the bluetoothers had to have this model:

(http://www.geekologie.com/2007/11/16/cell-phone-booth.jpg)
Title: Re: Got a new project, pictorial
Post by: oscar on 08 November 2008, 03:38 PM
hehe.  Now that's making an anti statement.

TJ, wish I could make the rest look like that.  But I'd love to see the internals be spotless too.  I was surprised to see the hard baked oil deposit on the upper half of the sump.  Plus the general colour of components.  If you remember ages ago seeing Carl J's 280's engine it was clean as new.  Amazing.  A testament to frequent oil changes.