Got a new project, pictorial

[Big_Richard]

I am an ultra amateurish spray painter - with cars of the past, Ive found it very difficult to get a decent looking finish on older panels that have been painted before. I am way too lazy to prepair them properly.

But, since my cars usually went spinning off the side of the road at high speed in the rainy weather, i always required new panels etc. I found it MUCH easier to paint brand new parts than old ones. Even the plastic bumpers are a piece of cake to paint when brand new and look fantastic.

[oscar]

This is where I find my dilemma Pat.  I'm verging on the too lazy to care plus it's only a track car excuse that I'm nearly accepting that unless I strip both panels again, I'll never get a perfect finish.  Well actually, I don't mind too much with these.  I just wasn't expecting to find that they had already been filled with loads of filler to cover imperfections.  Beforehand they looked good apart from cracked top coat.  I thought they would be perfectly straight for a back to bare metal simple respray.  Not so.  I don't want to go buying another tub of filler for the vanity thing if this car has a high risk of needing those panels again after it's first track event

Anyway,  dust was the issue again.  Chassis/rad support, no worries.  Pretty smooth and gloosy on the inner guard and top rad support but the panels attracted dust and man I was p'd off.  I cleaned, washed down but there must have been something in the air.  As soon as I started on the bonnet, there was hairy dust crap everywhere so I just put a light coat on so I can sand it back a little and try again in a few days.  I can live with the odd slight dent or depression, I really just want to get a decent smooth gloss without dust.  So the panels will now sit aside whilst I start checking out the mechanicals, replace radiator etc at nights after work.


Check the dust

[SELfor50]

Kolin, I got excited when you mentioned doing the same as oscar with your 350SE... thought you were going to race it??!!    I guess a re-spray is almost as cool..   

Doing some good work there oscar.  It's coming along.. 

[kolin]

i learnt after using water based paints the first time, it doenst work well with these spray guns, so will use enamel .

[craigb]

Taking a break at work and checked the forum but of course the pictures are blocked!

You have to tell yourself Oscar that if this is your first go at painting it is great you are not aiming for a concourse winner. A great way to do it and you will learn heaps from the experience. And now for my experience..... read stuff ups!

You said about building up filler. I have found it is always better to not expect the spray filler to do the job and better to sand it down further first. Where i did build up spray filler I found that later down the track it shows again, and can sometimes be polished out but one day it will be a problem. I vow to get it as smooth as I want to see it before the paint goes on.

Trying to answer this quickly so hope I don't miss bits. You said about cracked top coat. This has to all come off because regardless of filler it will always come back - and I am guessing you did this. As far as old filler goes though, if it looks ok and isnt cracked or lifting, on this car I would leave it and reckon you would still get a good finish.

I can't see what paint you are using - Acrylic laquer? That's all I have ever used. If so, what you are describing as dust and 'hairy' sounds like something I experienced before. I never worked out exactly what it was but stopped the problem in the end. It was like it was drying in the gun or at the tip and then flinging it on partly dry. My gun would start off alright and then start doing it. After massive dissapointment I tried the following:
- stop immediately, let it dry, sand it and then try again - maybe move to another panel in meantime.
- I found mixing more thinners worked better, i think it was pretty warm when it happened, are you working under heatlamps?
- after stoping I would pull the tip off the gun and clean it in thinners, put it back and with the can off the gun dip the end in the thinners, pull the trigger and aim at a board, old panel etc until the thinners pumps through, back into the can, maybe with a bit more thinners and try again.
- in frustration a temporary fix seemed to be holding my hand over the tip so you would hear bubbles in the can, and then aiming at the board, - i don't know but maybe blocked in the uptake pipe, too much air going through the gun and not enough paint coming up - air drying a bit before it makes it out the tip........ hence more thinner which seemed to work?


I'm really interested if anybody knows about this but meanwhile I hope something here helps. I just wish you were local and I would come around and show you what I am talking about.



And apologies that after being correctly accused of not putting out (never been accused of that - quite the opposite really!) I have to take some photos and post them. The car is now succesfully converted to lpg and has never gone better...... but more on that later. Still, things are looking pretty good now for the August 14 sprint. And Andreas was up on the weekend with his sprinter sorting out a few probs. Pretty funny with 2 identical white 116's..... plus this one and plus one car over here I know for sale for $700 i think but with a bit of accident damage..... would look like a factory team for our team event over here next year. Anyway, have to go and get back to this work shit!

[craigb]

And of course I should give you a number because this probably wont make sense, 0421910935. If i am near a landline I can call you back esp at home have free national call deal.

[s class]

I have a fair bit of experience with 2-K paints.  I agree with CraigB that preparation is the key.  I generally do all my shaping of filler with #100 grit, and then finish with #220 before any primer goes on.  This minimises the chance of scratches showing through the primer.  I then use standox 1-k etch primer - thin coat, just to get etch - and then the next day rub ut back with #600 until it shows NO orange peel or imperfections.  THen 2 or 3 coats of standox 2-k high solid primer, applied at 20 minute intervals with no sanding between.  HS primers have a better abilityto fill imperfections - but don't push your luck - because they shrink as they cure.  So you could fill scratches, sand it smooth, put your top coat on and next week the scratches show through - because the primer has shrunk back ino the scratches.  So I like to let my HS primer dry for at least 2 weeks before sanding it back, wet, with #600.  Again the surface must be perfect with no remnants of orange peel. 

I then put 2 coats of basecoat, 2 of clear, about 20min intervals (depends on ambient temp). 

The orange peel I see in your closeup pics is due to 2 issues :

a) orange peel in the primer that should have been rubbed back better
b) orange peel in the top coat.

Orange peel in the top coat is because its going on too thick/dry.  If the paint is too thick, or you spray too fast, you get orange peel.  Too thin or too slow, and you get runs.  Its a fine line between them.  I like to keep my paints on the thin side of the acceptable range.  I then spray at 3 bar (instead of the recoommended 4 bar) because then everything 'happens' slower, giving you time to react on the fly. 

Your spray patter should be set up to produce a stripe that is perpendicular to the gun motion.  Apray one band across the edge of the panel.  Subsequent bands should be put down aiming the centre of your sray pattern at the edge of the previous band.  Gun distance should be about 200mm from the surface.  It takes a bit of practice, but then you can regulate the paint quantity going down by slight adjustments to your gun sweep speed. 

Hope this helps a bit. 

[oscar]

Thanks guys.  I had typed a response but lost it when my log on timed out whilst I was at work so I'll try again.

this probably wont make sense,

No no, it makes complete sense.  Thanks for checking in again.  My first thought was that I was throwing out dryish paint, like silly-string until I got up close and could pick the lint out of the paint and noticed there was dust too.  I put it down to poor dust control and using terri toweling on other parts in the same enclosed space.  I've introduced airborn particles to the workspace. Furthermore, I received a small electric shock from the bonnet whilst spraying.  Both panels are sitting on plastic kids tables and gained a static charge whilst spraying.  This has no doubt attracted the airborn lint.  All the paints are enamels, no acrylics, except the inner guard black stone guard stuff which was water based.  I thought they might be better than acrylics for no particular reason at all.  I know the drying time is agonisingly longer.

Thanks for your other tips and observations.  True craig that it is my first attempt and I am learning a lot from the stuff ups that are an essential learning tool, plus there's so many variables to experiment with.  I'm not using heatlamps at all and curing the paint at less than room temp.  There's the two flow control and spray pattern controls on the gun and the pattern orientation which as sclass said, should be perpendicular to the gun's travel (found that out the hardway).  There's gun travel speed and the air pressure (I'm using 2-2.5 bar for that slow action but will confidently increase that to 3 bar after sclass' post).  I'll admit to not accurately mixing thinners with the paint.  I'm basically guessing the amount of paint I need then adding a bit more then adding thinners and watch the mixture slosh around the pot to judge viscosity.  Then spray and see on a spare bit of tin.  I know it sounds very crude but I honestly think I'm getting a good flow out of the gun that hasn't been "watered down" too much.  The paint has never come through too thin or transparent at all.

b) orange peel in the top coat.

Orange peel in the top coat is because its going on too thick/dry.  If the paint is too thick, or you spray too fast, you get orange peel.  

I'm guessing more to do with b) and with me spraying too fast after my frustration and subsequent hurried finish after I discovered I was spraying over dust and lint.  I sanded down the primer prior and got it smooth then used water then compressed air to clean the dust off.  This was done outside then moved into my garage.  (the first coat of lacquer on the quarter panel was done outside on a still day but turned it into a big white fly catcher )  But the variances of gun motion and layer thickness I think have been accidentally demonstrated on the bonnet although not clearly visible.  That is to say, some spots where gun motion, the overlap, the layer thickness, all combined to produce a smooth finish.  So I hit that sweet-spot in a few places.  I'm sure that only practice and identifying my mistakes will make the good occur consistently.

I agree too that preparation is the key, it has become all too obvious after the last week.  I know with more experience I'll improve.  I'd like to progress to 2K eventually one day but know there's a lot to learn still about preparation.   I know that if the base coat is crappy it shows through to the clear.  I think moreso if one day I try a clear over metalic, my possibly flawed gun motion I've read will show through the clear with the uneven deposit of mica flakes.

I've taken in all that you guys have said and will report back later in the week hopefully with finished panels.  Thanks for for your inputs.

[craigb]

At home now and can see the pics. I was referring to something different but if anyone has that problem.....

I have never used enamel. I seem to recall reading old mags from the 60's and 70's where they told you how to successfully brush paint cars with enamel, I think it was all about thinners in the final brush or something. Anyway, the point is that judging by looking at the photos I reckon you need thinner paint and this will 'self level' to some degree, but not too thin so it runs away. Nothing lost though I would have thought because a good sand with a sanding block to get it smooth and sand out the dust and I would have thought you could just go over the top again. Perhaps som enamel experts are out there.

Certainly with acrylic you have that option that you can sand it back and spray over the top, looking on the bright side just a bit more practice! Good luck anyway and keep us posted.

[kolin]

after reading all this stuff, i have the guts to start on my 350.so much needs to be done, i dont have a garage, but a carport,if the winds not blowing..........
i will have to put it up on jack, brakes off, all the gubbins out, ie seats and what ever and get ready fro respray, i suppose a big part of the preparation is the taping everything up.
will post some pics.on a new post with a list of problems

[oscar]

Well good luck kolin.     Personally, I still don't feel comfortable enough to do my 350 just yet.  That's not to put you off from having a go either, I'm looking forward to seeing your results and how you go about it.  There's plenty of tips if you google that show achievements by others repainting outside.  Where I live it gets too dusty but at the moment it's good as there's been widespread rain but as I said before, there's too many insects about here at the moment and they just stuck to the slow drying paint. 

Edit:  I forgot to ask whether you want to stick with factory colour or you're going for something different.  Here's something for inspiration

[craigb]

OK so here is one photo of the car - very standard apart from the Ronal wheels and I intend to keep it that way.... unless i am looking for extra grip and some 15 inch rims could find their way on. More to come of the conversion.

[SELfor50]

Well good luck kolin.     Personally, I still don't feel comfortable enough to do my 350 just yet.  That's not to put you off from having a go either, I'm looking forward to seeing your results and how you go about it.  There's plenty of tips if you google that show achievements by others repainting outside.  Where I live it gets too dusty but at the moment it's good as there's been widespread rain but as I said before, there's too many insects about here at the moment and they just stuck to the slow drying paint. 

Edit:  I forgot to ask whether you want to stick with factory colour or you're going for something different.  Here's something for inspiration

That looks great Oscar!!!  I've already planned out my colour scheme, but i'll take some of this into consideration.. 

Great to finally see this car Craigb!!!  Very keen to hear more about this conversion and work done etc..

Don't forget simo, if you spend a whole bunch of time on the painting then maybe have a 'close encounter' with any tyres at sutton - you could be a little angry..     I'm guessing this is a test bed though for maybe doing the 350 down the track?!

Now, i'm gonna be going to organise some decals for the 're-finishing' of Ol' silver... If you have any designs you'd like to forward etc, flick them on and i'll get them costed. 

Cam. 

[oscar]

Craig, so thar she is   Looks very nice.  You've got me thinking that I need to tint my 350's windows.  The white with tint looks fantastic.  Do I read your post correct that you're going to start with 14" bundts and standard tyres?  I'm kind of thinking that I might use up my stash of used 14" tyres before I fork out on decent 15" tyres for my fake pentas.  More on that when the time comes to shod Povo.

Cam, for the moment I'm planning on reproducing my own fake brand decals with my wife's die cutter plus a few generic cheap MB decals off ebay.  Haven't put too much thought towards it yet but you'll definitely see the results and maybe get an order if I fail.

I'm on days off now, woohoo!!!  1 more sleep to tool time.

[oscar]

Update, it's alive

But first, yet again, more dust problems today but on closer inspection, the paint was reacting to something else.   They're all divots not lumps.  I think my air compressor spat some oil out through the hose when I was using it to dry the panels after sanding then washing.  My compressor doesn't have one of those glass attachments that catch moisture and presumably compressor oil.  (the name escapes for the moment). 

But although picturing the worst part, the rest is looking pretty good.  Still a couple more coats to go.  I also bought and used a random orbital sander with 180 paper on and it did wonders on the bumps and orange peel and dust in the paint. 

Not only that, after Craig and Sclass' posts, I decided to use less thinners.  The result, a thicker smoother coat with no runs.  I thought I had the mix right - clearly not so.

I also got the radiator in and hoses attached, oil hoses hooked up, coil and resistor reattached and kicked it over.  Of course there's a vid but I think the Solex is going to give me curry.  I can't get the secondaries to open and the vacuum pot that closes them has a perforated diaphragm and doesn't work.  The secondaries can be pushed open easily but I'm not sure what they're supposed to be attached to to make them work.  I've got all the documentation I need to investigate it, it's just a matter of getting motivated to open the book.

The first time I started the engine (video below), it took a few goes but once going it was fine.  The smoke you see starting to emanate from the exhaust side is from a piece of rubber from god knows what sitting on the exhaust manifold.  It's gone now.  There's a couple of exhaust leaks but after tightening a few bolts, there's one more I'm trying to locate.  There's no Y piece from the manifold.  Somebody has dispensed with it and gone for two pipes maybe all the way through.  The second time I started it, the choke was wide open and whilst I could start it, it wouldn't idle for me  I'll tackle that problem when I go to time the thing.  IMO, the engine is very slow to respond to the throttle even when fully warmed but I have to revisit this when I get into the guts of tuning it.  I'm still in the reassembly stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVzZ-KuSDs