Author Topic: Got a new project, pictorial  (Read 27789 times)

SELfor50

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2008, 02:30 AM »
That's looking great Oscar!!!

I can't believe the state this was in only 1 week ago... and now?!  You're a f*kn machine!!!!!  8)

Looking forward to Sandown... ;)
"Man who come first, wins race." -Unknown

-= 1978 - 450 SEL [Euro] =-  Locked
-= 1976 - 450 SE 6.9 #2 =-  New Heart

oscar

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #16 on: 28 May 2008, 03:20 AM »
Tomorrow's no interuptions so fingers crossed, if I get everything stripped and prepped for welding and painting I can concentrate on doing some other stuff round the house whilst I wait for the welding on Saturday.
1973 350SE, my first & fave

SELfor50

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #17 on: 28 May 2008, 04:09 AM »
You're definitely doing me proud dude, i knew there was a reason I passed you the torch!! (wasn't supposed to be a welding torch either...  ::) )

In regards to the synchro's in the gear box, I didn't mention that when revving hard and trying to snap change the synchro's basically couldn't keep up with my changing pace.
Eg. the clutch was definately all the way in but as I was changing so fast it couldn't really keep up... and would crunch and go in, or bite and jump out till i did it slowly.

I know I only had the car 3 days of driving, but I tested it out for track purposes.  The gearbox synchros may need looking at if going to be used for track as you'll wanna be able to snap shift.  Apparently this isn't too hard, but will definitely be worth researching.

I was gonna suggest that on the Sat before sandown (assuming you have it off) i'll head to Griffith early early morning, and we can work on this puppy all day... then head down to melbs in the arvs..  I just feel so helpless in canberra not being able to, well, help.   ::)
"Man who come first, wins race." -Unknown

-= 1978 - 450 SEL [Euro] =-  Locked
-= 1976 - 450 SE 6.9 #2 =-  New Heart

oscar

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #18 on: 28 May 2008, 07:03 AM »
Without knowing what this one was like I thought when I first saw this thing on ebay that it would be very rare to find a manual box in perfect condition.  So what you say doesn't surprise me.  However, I got no idea what to do about it.  I've changed a clutch plate on a tractor's power take off when I was 16 and although that's a completely different thing to synchro it's the closest I've come to doing anything that resembles a part in a manual box.  Doesn't mean I wouldn't tackle it at some stage.  Though I've no idea where to find a manual on a w116 manual trans ???  there's a couple of mentions in the library about checking and changing oil.  That might be a good start.  When I get it going again I'll try it with the old oil then with new but check the level first.  Maybe if the oil has sludged up (if thats possible) the gear changes are like what you say.   But I've no idea.


About Sandown, it is 13th July isn't it or is it sooner?  This puppy will be finished by then.  Well, not fully race prepped but definitely painted and roadworthy.  I hope to be test driving it next Friday at the soonest.  Anyway, Saturday wont be any good so far as we wont be here.  The plan at the moment is to leave early Sat to do kids stuff, keep the wife happy stuff, on Sat in Melbs.  We might even leave Friday night but I think I finish at 22:00, too late.  So more likely we'll leave at 5am Sat.  We may however be staying on Sunday night since the kids are on hols and we can travel back on Monday.  This means a brew or two plus a few after raceday ;D

Don't feel bad about not helping, but you can feel jealous.  I'm enjoying it.  It's pretty well plain sailing so far and fun (until you mentioned the gearbox :D ).  Seriously, as opposed to the other "projects" I bought for no particular reason come to think of it ::), Povo's got a purpose.  It will be finished.




1973 350SE, my first & fave

13B

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #19 on: 28 May 2008, 09:41 PM »
The gearchange synchro problem is not unusual for any gearbox made in the 1970s... be that mazda, holden, ford, mercedes.  Couple that with the fact that someone explained to me that the MB 4-speed gearbox design goes back to the 1940s...

If the box is loose but the synchros are still working, as you would expect in a box which has done 400,000+ km (how many times is that from Canberra to Jo-burg and back if there was a road joining the two?), you run a concoction which I run in the RX4: 1/3 80W90 gear oil, 1/3 ATF, 1/3 Lucas Oil stabiliser.  Changes are a bit notchy when cold but work well when warmed up.

Also just learn how to change gear as quickly as possible without crunching it... The mazda boxes are by no means quick changing but I get acceptable gear changes now that I've learned to drive it... a couple of weeks behind the wheel of Povo and you'll have it down pat. 

I.
450SEL 6.9 #5440 = V MB 690 , 450SE # 43094 = 02010 H , 190E/turbo # 31548 = AOH 68K

oscar

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #20 on: 29 May 2008, 01:13 AM »
It will be interesting to get an idea of what it's doing.  My changes might be ultra slow compared to Cam's ::)

Just got a few photos from today.  I've inhaled too many hydrocarbons, i got a headache and I can't spell.  I have to be quick so basically, i striiped that front bit and still need to get that butt joint right but I might get the welder in tomorrow.  I think I'm getting a migraine >:(

Also painted the pulley's black after seeing PB's effort.



1973 350SE, my first & fave

SELfor50

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #21 on: 29 May 2008, 07:54 AM »
Lookin' great O-man!!!  Those pulley's look very niiiiiiice... I liiiiiike.. ;)

Are you gonna have a crack at the welding??  I've never welded before in my life so it scares me...
Hope it all goes well!!
"Man who come first, wins race." -Unknown

-= 1978 - 450 SEL [Euro] =-  Locked
-= 1976 - 450 SE 6.9 #2 =-  New Heart

s class

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #22 on: 29 May 2008, 11:41 AM »
Very impressive Oscar.  You are moving ahead at a cracking pace and making us all proud.  Well done. 

'76 6.9 Euro, '78 6.9 AMG, '80 280SE, '74 350SE, '82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro , '81 500SL

Big_Richard

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #23 on: 29 May 2008, 03:47 PM »
good work oscar.  8)

What type of welder are you planning to use, and have you got welding experience on this kind of material ?

I once tryed welding a car body and just blew holes in it, but it was a particularly crappy mig welder.


oscar

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #24 on: 29 May 2008, 04:07 PM »
Don't ya just love the look of new looking metal 8)  It's the first time I've seen the pics since yesterday.

Regarding welding - I have a friend that used to be a machinist/welder/fitter for BHP, or as we call it, Big Hardware Place :D and he's bringing around his good but old CIG MIG.  He hasn't used it for a while and has never used gasless wire but that's what we're going to use.  Might practice on the crushed panel first.  We'll both have a go but Paul will do the welding. 

The only problem is that, as is typical when things are rolling along smoothly, the project's going to stall after today.  I have to work out of town on Saturday, that was supposed to be weld day so that's screwed things up for a week.  I doubt we'll be able to weld today.

1973 350SE, my first & fave

Big_Richard

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #25 on: 29 May 2008, 06:38 PM »
do let me know how you go with gasless mig welding, this is what i tried to use and even on the lowest setting blew holes in anything it touched.

Infact, ive never seen any use out of my gasless mig what so ever, everything ive tried with it has failed..

oscar

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #26 on: 29 May 2008, 08:52 PM »
I've spent most of the morning at this engineering shop that's having a sale and all the reps are there.  Talking to some knowledgeable people that don't work for CIG, Lincoln or whatever other brands were there, anything under 170amp is a waste of time.  There was a ripper 180amp gas/gasless Lincoln one for $975 that it was almost worth hitting up the credit card and getting divorced over it.

When talking panel work and sheet metal, my mate said that to avoid burning holes or to fill a gap with mig you could hold some copper sheet to the underside to stop the molten steel dropping away.  The copper conducts the heat away quickly, makes the molten steel cool quicker and the joint can be filled relatively quickly.  The copper doesn't take the weld either BTW.  It's melting point is too high.  We've got some scrap copper plate in rolls an will need to do this along that butt joint to stop the gap getting bigger and to prevent holes forming.  But next Friday/Saturday looks most likely the day/s so I'll get back to you with results. 
1973 350SE, my first & fave

craigb

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #27 on: 29 May 2008, 10:03 PM »
Isn't this exciting!

(just read the new post but I think mine still makes sense - interesting about the copper though and you obviously know what you are doing.)

I have done a small amount of work with gasless mig and it seemed OK. As with any mig welding I was told once to make sure the metal is really clean to be welded to get a good result. Blowing holes is usually just your amp setting as far as I know. I suggest getting a bit of mild steel plate and just keep trying different settings, sometimes it will keep sticking, sometimes blow holes and you want it somewhere in between. Your mate and probably you Oscar know that it is the expansion and warpage that is the big issue. I would suggest little tack welds, remeasure, check fit of panels etc, read just if necessary, then more tacks, check again and so on. But I am just an amateur but I have had some bad (and also good) experiences and find that a lot of caution early on can save a heap of work later. With my bad experiences it is just amazing how much movement you can get in the metal.

Also re what welder, for that structural sort of stuff and panels where you are happy to do final finishing with a slither of bog I reckon the mig is best due to minimising the amount of heat and therefore warpage. If you want to metal finish or maybe even bigger panel welds or in the middle of panels where no matter what you will get a fair bit of warpage and want to heat shrink, then I would suggest Oxy. Only reason being is that a fusion weld with oxy all the material is the same and you can grind the weld and bash it and it will all respond the same. The mig weld is harder and you have this hard weld surrounded by softer metal and makes it all more difficult. I am not antibog but I had a vintage car that had beautifully rolled panel sections in the reat that got mig welded together, I bought it at that stage and it took an eternity to get it right again.

And with the gearbox, I totally agree with what 13b has said. I haven't heard of his cocktail before but I had a car and I ran a thinner penrite brew that helped it greatly in the synchro dept. I haven't had these later boxes apart but the earlier ones are very simple indeed and easy to rebuild, but I would play lots with oil first and technique, getting off the gas between the change and delaying just a split second probably wont kill your time too much.

If it helps to describe how your 4spd gearbox works, you have an input shaft that the clutch is hanging on and this is inline with the output shaft that has all the gears on it inside the box. In top gear your lever pushes the very front gear to lock into the back of the input shaft and is a direct drive, hence why often a worn gearbox goes quiet in top because the power is not going through gears. The whole time there is another shaft with fixed gears on it that is meshed with a gear on the input shaft. When you select the other gears you slide the gears on the ouput shaft along so they mesh with the corresponding gear on the layshaft ie. power from input to layshaft to output shaft but output shaft spins at different speeds based on the ratio of the meshed gears. I have a picture in my head i am describing so I hope that makes sense in words only!

Now for the synchro, the gears are stationary/freewheeling on that output shaft when not engaged and fixed to it and via the input shaft the layshaft is spinning at a fixed rate to the revs of the engine, so the synchro for example can be a cone sort of clutch between the shaft and the gear and as you push the gear in it speeds it up or slows it down to the same speed and hence no crunch. If that cone clutch is worn and slipping, it might not change the speed quick enough on quick changes.

I'm running out of time here but I hope that makes sense or someone can correct me.

Also double declutching using heel/toe is really useful and much easier on the gearbox for the track. Let me know if you want me to have a go at describing that.

and lastly, my car is not far off the track now, probably july but keep you posted.
1980 280s

13B

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #28 on: 29 May 2008, 10:38 PM »
Craigb,

Quote
and lastly, my car is not far off the track now, probably july but keep you posted.

Here's one we prepared earlier...







Now can we see some pictures of the progress on yours...

I.
450SEL 6.9 #5440 = V MB 690 , 450SE # 43094 = 02010 H , 190E/turbo # 31548 = AOH 68K

SELfor50

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Re: Got a new project, pictorial
« Reply #29 on: 29 May 2008, 10:40 PM »
Isn't this exciting!

(just read the new post but I think mine still makes sense - interesting about the copper though and you obviously know what you are doing.)

I have done a small amount of work with gasless mig and it seemed OK. As with any mig welding I was told once to make sure the metal is really clean to be welded to get a good result. Blowing holes is usually just your amp setting as far as I know. I suggest getting a bit of mild steel plate and just keep trying different settings, sometimes it will keep sticking, sometimes blow holes and you want it somewhere in between. Your mate and probably you Oscar know that it is the expansion and warpage that is the big issue. I would suggest little tack welds, remeasure, check fit of panels etc, read just if necessary, then more tacks, check again and so on. But I am just an amateur but I have had some bad (and also good) experiences and find that a lot of caution early on can save a heap of work later. With my bad experiences it is just amazing how much movement you can get in the metal.

Also re what welder, for that structural sort of stuff and panels where you are happy to do final finishing with a slither of bog I reckon the mig is best due to minimising the amount of heat and therefore warpage. If you want to metal finish or maybe even bigger panel welds or in the middle of panels where no matter what you will get a fair bit of warpage and want to heat shrink, then I would suggest Oxy. Only reason being is that a fusion weld with oxy all the material is the same and you can grind the weld and bash it and it will all respond the same. The mig weld is harder and you have this hard weld surrounded by softer metal and makes it all more difficult. I am not antibog but I had a vintage car that had beautifully rolled panel sections in the reat that got mig welded together, I bought it at that stage and it took an eternity to get it right again.

And with the gearbox, I totally agree with what 13b has said. I haven't heard of his cocktail before but I had a car and I ran a thinner penrite brew that helped it greatly in the synchro dept. I haven't had these later boxes apart but the earlier ones are very simple indeed and easy to rebuild, but I would play lots with oil first and technique, getting off the gas between the change and delaying just a split second probably wont kill your time too much.

If it helps to describe how your 4spd gearbox works, you have an input shaft that the clutch is hanging on and this is inline with the output shaft that has all the gears on it inside the box. In top gear your lever pushes the very front gear to lock into the back of the input shaft and is a direct drive, hence why often a worn gearbox goes quiet in top because the power is not going through gears. The whole time there is another shaft with fixed gears on it that is meshed with a gear on the input shaft. When you select the other gears you slide the gears on the ouput shaft along so they mesh with the corresponding gear on the layshaft ie. power from input to layshaft to output shaft but output shaft spins at different speeds based on the ratio of the meshed gears. I have a picture in my head i am describing so I hope that makes sense in words only!

Now for the synchro, the gears are stationary/freewheeling on that output shaft when not engaged and fixed to it and via the input shaft the layshaft is spinning at a fixed rate to the revs of the engine, so the synchro for example can be a cone sort of clutch between the shaft and the gear and as you push the gear in it speeds it up or slows it down to the same speed and hence no crunch. If that cone clutch is worn and slipping, it might not change the speed quick enough on quick changes.

I'm running out of time here but I hope that makes sense or someone can correct me.

Also double declutching using heel/toe is really useful and much easier on the gearbox for the track. Let me know if you want me to have a go at describing that.

and lastly, my car is not far off the track now, probably july but keep you posted.

Good info on the welding everyone.

Craigb, great to understand the gearbox a bit better..  I'd definitely be interested in hearing your breakdown of 'heel-towing'.  I still don't understand exactly how it works.

Craig, also mate.  GIVE US SOME F*KN PICTURES OF YOUR TRACK CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   I'm over it, you're like a girlfriend that won't put out...... i'm sure what you're doing is f*kn sweet as!!!  But I'm not gonna keep this relationship up if you won't show us your engine bay!!!    :o :D   ;)

Jokes aside mate, i'm pretty keen to see some pics of how your build is coming along (i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one either).
You realise that Sandown is on July 13th in Victoria.  I'm driving down from Canberra for it.... Oscar may have this beast ready....
And a good chance 13B may have his 450 ready...  How good would it be to have 4 116's at the SAME SPRINT!!??!!??!!!!  
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) <--That's how cool it'd be!!  ;D
"Man who come first, wins race." -Unknown

-= 1978 - 450 SEL [Euro] =-  Locked
-= 1976 - 450 SE 6.9 #2 =-  New Heart