Finding a 350SE manual

[RustInPeace]

Still searching for the right car and have a couple of experiences to report.

First find was a 280SE 5 speed in good clean condition, but I wasn't fast enough and the seller decided to keep it. Bummer. Since then I have looked at some real rusty junk, and decided to look for a more expensive example with better all round condition, esp. bodywork. I loved the 5 speed: super rare and a steal from price and probably a good drive, but just didn't work out. After driving the 350 and 450 I am hooked on the V, especially manual 350. Now the choice is very limited, but there are always a couple of these cars on offer (in Germany at least).

The 350SE
========
So, a couple of weeks ago I found beautiful 1979 350SE manual shift, K-Jet, one owner, good options. It is deep wine red metallic with very good chrome, beige half-cloth interior, fuchs alloys. Now I am in a similar position to mercedesbenz911 who was looking a 350 manual (see thread http://forum.w116.org/test-drive/should-i-buy-1978-350se-4-spd-stickshift/). The car is over 4 hours away on the Swiss border, but I'm serious about it so I go and look at it. In the hall under halogens the car looks pretty good:

- Bodywork
  - Bodywork generally ok, beginning to show rust spots so would have to act quickly.
  - some rust at sunroof front corners, base of driver roof pillar, rear passenger door base.
  - A fair bit of repair welds and plates over the last years, most look very well done, the latest ones a bit shitty. There are a couple of rust through points to do, but not major surgery.
  - long dent and crease in the outer sill (about 50cm long) at the front passenger wagon lift point. Must have reversed into a concrete hard thing at some time. Pressed in almost 3cm. Technical inspection* (German TÜV) said nothing. I wonder what the wagon lift tube did to the inner sill so a pulled the carpet. There are some big repair plates welded in, apparently by Mercedes Benz Sindelfingen. This could be true, it's nearby and the welding looks satellite quality. The sill should have been pulled out flat from outside though.
- Rubber seals: porous rubbers everywhere: doors, windows, trunk. Driver carpet at left foot wet, boot l/r wet.
- Paint: acceptable clean, but with some orange peel from various resprays on wings, bonnet, pillars. Oh. That's almost the whole car then!
- Interior: seat covers fine, console cracked, other foam cored door trims cracked, SPAX WOODSCREWS holding various cracked plastic together. All the trim wobbles, like the inner door handle/armrests, instruments a bit popped out, chrome trim hanging off..
- Engine/Trans: 180000 km, v. good: no leaks, odd noises or other misbehavior.
- Electrics: original wiring, everything works.
- Brakes: ABS system. Brakes work but have horrible feel. Fluid old so might be lucky. The brake warn light is always on so something is rotten. I don't fancy old school ABS anyway and would probably want to remove it. Is this worth keeping?

The Decision
==========
Price is now 4200EUR which seems about what to expect. I sat on it for a week then decided I go and get it!
Another road trip with lots of overpriced coffee/smokes then the ferry over lake Constance. Under bright daylight things are different. So, so, so many small things are defekt, like the cracked interior, rust here and there and the sill with the crease is giving me the creeps.

I got a bad gut feeling about the car and decided against it. Since then I've been losing sleep over it for the last week. There are a two other manual 350s on offer at 5000 and 5500 that are accordingly much better condition. The difference in price does not seem worth inheriting hours of rust busting and interior trim hunter/gatherer stress. I can live with dodgy condition, but only if cheap enough. The seller wants to sell (he didn't get much joy yet) and I want to buy (not at 4.2K). What to do? I wouldn't make myself happy knowing I could have saved a raft of trouble with an extra 500 to 1000. Am I being realistic? It's a manual shift K-Jet with 147kw high comp motor, nice options. Trade rarity with condition? A common problem seems that there is a difference from what an owner thinks his car is worth, and how much a buyer will pay. The above car was on ebay with lowest price 4.5K. No one viewed the car and the bidding stopped at 3.8K. After looking at it I would not want to pay more than around 3 - 3.5K. I decided to be more patient, but it's not easy.

greetings,
JC and faithfull W123


*Tech Inspections
=============
BTW I have very little faith in tech inspections like TÜV. They said nothing about the heavilly creased sill, but it wouldn't do for me. Try this test: stand on a beer can and load weight on it. No problem. Now press in a small dent on one side and repeat. I don't want to try this will a sill.

Actually, these inspections are a laugh number after two near death experiences related to mechanical failure:
(1.) W123 Ball joint in steering botched-up with bicycle inner tube and cable ties. Water and sand got in, joint failed with 120 km/h and I lost the entire front left steering/suspension assy with wheel. Car left with 3 wheels going sideways sliding on broken oil sump then bounces like a pin ball across the road and lands in field. TÜV was only done 6 months ago but car is now very dead!
(2.) My latest barn find W123 had hydraulic fluid that look like Wiessbier. No problem, I spent two months under the lift welding this spam-can, I do that tomorrow. Back brake starts dragging and heating up when I'm descending the Swabian Alps and the soup starts cooking!!! No brakes! Lucky the road opens to two lanes and I am flitzing past other cars on both sides before coming to a stop in one of the trunk emergency gravel ramps. Can you believe the TÜV was one day old.

[Type17]

It sounds like a lot of parts of the car are in bad condition, and will need replacing - I'd sooner find a car with a few things badly wrong, than loads of stuff that's a little bit wrong.

If it was me, I'd leave a relatively low offer with the seller and depart, and if (when) he realises that he is asking too much, considering the condition of the car, he may contact you to accept the offer.

Seeing that you really want a manual V8, would you consider buying a poor one and putting the manual-specific parts into a good auto V8?

Re the TUV: that's weird - from outside Germany, the TUV is seen as the gold standard for vehicle testing. In fact, my Irish Audi 80 is on the TUV system because I had to get the exhaust welded at a local workshop during a driving holiday to Italy - the guy said that he couldn't do any work on a car (even a foreign-registered one) without recording it on the system! In the Irish NCT (National Car Test) that ball joint would not have passed with a bicycle-tube seal, but the braking test would probably not have detected the old brake fluid either, as it would not have overheated during the test.

[RustInPeace]

Hi Type17,
I thought about leaving an offer, but I think the seller could shift it for more than I think it's worth! Better for him. I could see what happens after another week. You are right about tons of stuff a bit wrong: there is still a difference between 'Patina' and just plain broken, but I got the feeling that the car was unloved and neglected. The more I looked, the more I found wrong.. maybe I shouldn't feel bad about canceling.

I considered the transmission transplant route too. This would work OK with auto to manual, but I don't fancy trying to get a Vee motor into a 280 with all the wiring loom troubles, not to mention all the different ancillary components. Trouble here is that even a knackered (?) 350 manual is still expensive, as the seller is thinking about how much the leather interior is also worth! That's definitely a project for when more time and money is available.

Regarding the TUV: that's probably a bit harsh - they did spot a cracked suspension spring the last time. That bicycle tube ball joint botch was a very suspect biznis: the TUV was done by a dealer who suddenly disappeared and did not exist anymore.  I think there may have been some criminal stuff going on.. More surprizing was the brake fluid. Disgracefull. I mean really. You shoulda seen it! 

A question: how is the difference between 350 and 450 to live with on a longer term basis? I drove both and didn't mind the smaller capacity of the 350, especially if I can find a manual one. More specifically, are there major differences in robustness and running costs that can't be spotted on test driving.