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Casey's 1978 Euro 6.9

Started by Casey, 10 April 2013, 04:38 PM

arcijack

the 6.9 i have was bought for 58,000.00 in 1979, i have all the documented paperwork and every invoice  where work was done on car, i love the car and like you i will probably never sell, i wish you the best, but don't set unrealistic expectations for yourself and the car , i'm no expert, but these cars have a way of humbling us, unless money is no object.     I want you to enjoy the car and i'm happy for you.

Casey

Quote from: arcijack on 11 April 2013, 05:17 PM
the 6.9 i have was bought for 58,000.00 in 1979, i have all the documented paperwork and every invoice  where work was done on car, i love the car and like you i will probably never sell, i wish you the best, but don't set unrealistic expectations for yourself and the car , i'm no expert, but these cars have a way of humbling us, unless money is no object.     I want you to enjoy the car and i'm happy for you.

Nice, I don't have that kind of extensive record history unfortunately - it's hard to come by. This will be the ninth W116 in my garage when it arrives with another 6.9 (US-spec with blown top end, good for parts and lower-priority less extensive restoration) following shortly thereafter. I've definitely learned a lot over the last couple years of tinkering with these cars and have learned plenty of lessons the hard way so am familiar with the humbling experience though of course the added complexities of the 6.9 is a whole new level. I have zero regrets and it's been a grand adventure though. I'm looking forward to the challenges and surprises that await. :)

ZCarFan

Just how does one spend $50k restoring a nearly complete running car?  I assume this means a number 1 or 2 car when complete (i.e., don't dare drive it).

I suppose I still have not reconciled myself to the full effect of inflation.

alabbasi

Quote from: ZCarFan on 11 April 2013, 09:33 PM
Just how does one spend $50k restoring a nearly complete running car?

Rust and labor rates?
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

AndreasF

I'm wondering about the prices for a good Euro 6,9. If someone can sell me a good Euro 6,9 for 12.000$ I would take 2 or 3 of them :-)
In Germany you have to pay between 30.000 and 40.000€ for a 6,9 in a really good condition and with clear history. So you are very lucky to find such a car for a lower price. In other words, let's do a simple business: You find really good cars for 12.000$, sell and ship it to me for 15.000$ and I sell the car for 30.000$ in Germany. Would be a very nice business. :-)

Cherrs Andreas
350SE (silver) from 1979 (sun roof, air condition, central locking, Becker Mexico, ....)

Casey

#20
Quote from: AndreasF on 12 April 2013, 12:34 AM
I'm wondering about the prices for a good Euro 6,9. If someone can sell me a good Euro 6,9 for 12.000$ I would take 2 or 3 of them :-)
In Germany you have to pay between 30.000 and 40.000€ for a 6,9 in a really good condition and with clear history. So you are very lucky to find such a car for a lower price. In other words, let's do a simple business: You find really good cars for 12.000$, sell and ship it to me for 15.000$ and I sell the car for 30.000$ in Germany. Would be a very nice business. :-)

Honestly?  It's really hard to see *any* 6.9, even nice euro ones, go for more than 12k in the USA these days.  There are some really nice ones that have higher price tags, but they rarely sell in this economy.  Check out this one for $8500:  http://forum.w116.org/shop/us-6-9's-for-sale-posted-elsewhere/msg110656/#msg110656

A super-nice AMG model with loads of options was listed at $8k not long ago.  I've seen numerous super-nice ones that look brand new with low mileage sell for under 15k, and anything priced higher than that tends not to sell at all.  Definitely a good time to buy if you have the cash!  I've ended up with all the cars I have due to prices coming down so much over the last few years, though I don't have that much money really and end up getting a lot of projects needing work.

s class

Quote from: alabbasi on 11 April 2013, 04:29 PM
The big issue for these cars is rust and in order to really get to the rust you have to take the car completely apart. Randy indicates $20k, I would say that a thorough job will cost in excess of $50k.

At least $50k to do a 6.9 properly.

I am about to embark on a decent resto of a client's 6.9, and at local south African labour rates :

rust repairs : $7k
body and paint : $7k
new leather from GAHH, installed : $6k
15" bundts : $2k
trans rebuild : $2k
engine work?  We haven't decided how far to go yet
remove, strip, clean, rebush, reinstall suspension, steering etc : $4k, NOT including hydraulics
all new weatherstrips.....
all new chrome and brightwork.....
disassembly and reassembly of car.... how many hours do you think that takes...$1k? $2k?$5k?.....

I'm sure the total will easily run over $50k. 


[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL

oversize

Quote from: Casey on 11 April 2013, 06:48 AMHonestly I wasn't very excited by the color, but the nice shiny red 450SEL I've been driving has been attracting too much attention from the police who've been giving me speeding tickets so at this point I'm looking forward to it.

Don't speed and you won't get a ticket!
1979 6.9 #5541 (Red Bull)
1978 6.9 #4248 (Skye)
1979 6.9 #3686 (Moby Dick)
1978 6.9 #1776 (Dora)
1977 450SEL #7010 white -P
1975 450SEL #8414 gold -P

oversize

#23
Quote from: s class on 12 April 2013, 03:04 AM
Quote from: alabbasi on 11 April 2013, 04:29 PM
The big issue for these cars is rust and in order to really get to the rust you have to take the car completely apart. Randy indicates $20k, I would say that a thorough job will cost in excess of $50k.

At least $50k to do a 6.9 properly.

I am about to embark on a decent resto of a client's 6.9, and at local south African labour rates :

rust repairs : $7k
body and paint : $7k
new leather from GAHH, installed : $6k
15" bundts : $2k
trans rebuild : $2k
engine work?  We haven't decided how far to go yet
remove, strip, clean, rebush, reinstall suspension, steering etc : $4k, NOT including hydraulics
all new weatherstrips.....
all new chrome and brightwork.....
disassembly and reassembly of car.... how many hours do you think that takes...$1k? $2k?$5k?.....

I'm sure the total will easily run over $50k.

Cost is purely dependant upon what you're trying to achieve and you don't need to spend $50K for a good driver.  But if you want a show car then $50K is certainly in the ballpark.  About the price of a new car but far more unique, interesting and lots more fun!  I've heard some spend double, or triple that on (modified) show cars.  And the base car was far less superior to the W116.  When these vehicles are sold they're advertised for far more than even the best original car.  What they sell for is anyone's guess, but I'm tipping they'd be waiting a very long time for the right buyer and even then struggle to get their money back.

A 5% return on an investment is considered reasonable but even that can be very hard to achieve unless you've stumbled across a desirable vehicle and manage to buy it for lots less than market value.  Spending more to fix it up and you'd want even better returns to make the effort worthwhile
1979 6.9 #5541 (Red Bull)
1978 6.9 #4248 (Skye)
1979 6.9 #3686 (Moby Dick)
1978 6.9 #1776 (Dora)
1977 450SEL #7010 white -P
1975 450SEL #8414 gold -P

Casey

#24
Quote from: oversize on 12 April 2013, 03:44 AM
Don't speed and you won't get a ticket!

True enough, but nonetheless, my driving habits haven't changed, only the color of my car has.  And at least my last two tickets, I was in traffic doing the exact same speed as people in front of me; the same speed that I see people driving or exceeding every day.  So shiny red paint and chrome seems to indeed attract more attention.  At the same time while I leave a lot of distance in front of me, use turn signals, and drive courteously, lots of people tailgate, never signal, swerve around dangerously, and I never see anybody getting pulled over for that... :/

I'm also on the road for 2 hours a day at least, so there's simply a lot of exposure time.

adamb

Casey,

Why don't you buy yourself a really nice 6.9 and enjoy it. If you had a really good one then you will get immense satisfaction out of using it while working on your remaining 9 cars. I'm recommending this sincerely. You are a prolific contributor to this forum but I fear that you may overwhelm yourself with the amount of outstanding work. I can only speak from my experience - I have the one 6.9 and two motorbikes. I barely have time to maintain them while holding down a full time job. The body restore of my 6.9 two years ago, which I documented extensively on this forum, took a lot of evenings and weekends just for the strip down and reassembly. I paid many many thousands for fixing the body. Removal of all rust (as some have indicated above) was simply not a realistic proposition. Seriously, get yourself a sorted 6.9 to help you continue to enjoy your hobbie for many years to come.

Kind regards,
Adam

Casey

#26
Quote from: adamb on 12 April 2013, 05:37 AM
Why don't you buy yourself a really nice 6.9 and enjoy it.

Because I don't want to.  Why do so many feel a need to be critical?  I have a really nice 450SEL and I enjoy it.  I wanted a W116 with the reclining rear seat feature, and got a good deal on this one, and it's almost entirely rust-free.  If I wanted another really nice driver without having to put any real work into it, I'd find myself a really nice 300SD.

QuoteYou are a prolific contributor to this forum but I fear that you may overwhelm yourself with the amount of outstanding work.

I've hit burnout points before, and I know how much time/energy I can healthily put in without risking that.  I have plenty of storage space now as well as a very nice driver, so I'm not really concerned about how much time/money it ends up taking - it's what I enjoy and wish to do.  I enjoy keeping more vehicles on the road and enjoy the process and learning that comes from that.

Appreciate the concern but it's a done deal and I'm very happy about it.

As for my other cars, some have been bad purchases I've learned from the hard way - others bought for parts.  The last car I was using as a driver through the winter months was one I bought just for parts originally.  Roads get salted here and I didn't want to expose a nice car to them.  One of my cars is almost completely done being stripped and will be going to the scrapyard the same day the 6.9 arrives, on the same trailer.  I've got a couple that are just in "cold storage" because I haven't decided whether I want to restore them or scrap them, such as the green 450SEL I spent a fair bit on but turned out to have lots of hidden rust and bondo.  It's hard to bite the bullet and just take a loss of several thousand dollars but honestly that's probably the best idea in that case.  Three need engine swaps which is still something I'm working up to being comfortable doing myself.

There's a reason to my madness and I never intend to make the 6.9 a daily driver.  I want it to be a garage queen that I put serious investment into over time, and take out once a week or so for pleasure.

Please note my signature.

adamb

Hey, dude, you share - we comment and make opinions. That's why we call it a forum  8)

Good luck with getting that 6.9 running. My 6.9 when I got it was white (as per my avatar). It looked great in pictures. The paint was awful but white is good at hiding differences in colour, paint cracks, etc. Hopefully in this case the pictures are misleading; some spit and polish will make it shine.

Casey

#28
Quote from: adamb on 12 April 2013, 05:58 AM
Hey, dude, you share - we comment and make opinions. That's why we call it a forum  8)

Okay?  Likewise you asked a question and I answered.  No worries. I didn't take offense and apologize if my response made it sound like I did. There's just been a fair bit of criticism/concern posted on this thread and I'm not entirely sure. I got a good deal I'm very happy with and bought it as a project in unknown state - it has been neglected for a while for sure. I don't know if it's that I tend to come across the wrong way or if im just noticing it more when it applies to me but I don't see as much criticism when others post about their purchases even when much more ambitious projects.  So the question I posed about criticism was not directed specifically at you, hence the verbiage "so many".

Like I said, I *do* appreciate your concern and input, but it's a purchase that was completed 2 or 3 months ago and is just finally about to arrive.

I really need to focus on the cars I have before even thinking about another one, let alone the money it would take for a really nice one...

ZCarFan

Quote from: s class on 12 April 2013, 03:04 AM
Quote from: alabbasi on 11 April 2013, 04:29 PM
The big issue for these cars is rust and in order to really get to the rust you have to take the car completely apart. Randy indicates $20k, I would say that a thorough job will cost in excess of $50k.

At least $50k to do a 6.9 properly.

I am about to embark on a decent resto of a client's 6.9, and at local south African labour rates :

rust repairs : $7k
body and paint : $7k
new leather from GAHH, installed : $6k
15" bundts : $2k
trans rebuild : $2k
engine work?  We haven't decided how far to go yet
remove, strip, clean, rebush, reinstall suspension, steering etc : $4k, NOT including hydraulics
all new weatherstrips.....
all new chrome and brightwork.....
disassembly and reassembly of car.... how many hours do you think that takes...$1k? $2k?$5k?.....

I'm sure the total will easily run over $50k.

I keep forgetting how much body shops and mechanics get paid these days.  I certainly didn't make much when I was in that business.  I remember replacing all the bushings, front brakes two tires and an alignment on a '72 Chevelle and charged less than a day's labor.  Had more than one car on the rack that day too.  Then again, we only charged an hour to handle front brakes including turning rotors and repacking bearings @ $60/hour.  That was only 10 years ago.

So the real cost is having someone else do most of the work.  I am always thinking from the perspective of doing these tasks myself.  That is the problem with restorations, unless you have a rather significant income, you "lose" money paying someone else to handle labor.  For example, in the first 4 items listed I would expect to budget about $15,000 less. (14" bundts are fine by me and I hate leather, have a MIG welder and a spray gun).

The brightwork expense however, is nearly unavoidable.  Plating is just not practical at home (or likely legal?).  It is also a detail that makes a real difference.

Casey,

I expect you will be doing most of this yourself?  Have you considered the budget yet?