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Garage => Test Drive => Topic started by: 450sel5.0 on 23 October 2011, 01:12 AM

Title: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 23 October 2011, 01:12 AM
Here it is people, I have spent 2 weeks putting this together, 8) goes hard and only needed minor mods, extended tailshaft by 35mm, changed shape of sump at the rear to give enough clearance. I used the original alternator, powersteer pump and air cond pump from the 450. Changing my oil filter is going to be a pain because I will have to remove the battery and battery tray every time, but who cares !!!
4 speed auto behind it now too, the selector lever needed to be extended also, no big deal. Engine mounts off the 450 bolt right on the 500 engine so all good.
One of the easiest conversions ever.  ;D

(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31942-1/IMG_1437+_Medium_.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31936-1/IMG_1439+_Medium_.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31939-1/IMG_1438+_Medium_.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31933-1/IMG_1441+_Medium_.jpg)
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Big_Richard on 23 October 2011, 05:31 AM
what did you do re the speedo ?

I know the povo version cars that use that transmission housing such as the 190 etc use a cable operated speedo extension housing that you can bolt straight onto the v8s' 4 speed auto. or did you do something else? as correct me if im wrong, all w126s had electronic speedos ?
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: pompy on 23 October 2011, 07:59 AM
Awesome.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 1980sdga on 23 October 2011, 11:47 AM
I guess that's an M117?  Sounds like a good combination.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Mforcer on 23 October 2011, 10:07 PM
If my engine ever dies (or needs major, major repairs), this is what I will do.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 26 October 2011, 07:19 PM
Quote from: 450sel5.0 on 23 October 2011, 01:12 AM
Changing my oil filter is going to be a pain because I will have to remove the battery and battery tray every time, but who cares !!!

How about relocating the battery to the trunk?  I've thought about doing that to mine...
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: adamb on 27 October 2011, 11:15 AM
Very nice conversion. Two weeks for a professional or person close to being a professional, I'd say. Well done. But what is the motivation? Is it for the fun of it, or just a spare mint W116 chassis?

When my 6,9 engine is dead, I think it'll be replaced by a modern 3 litre turbo diesel - same torque, nearly the same power, and 2-3 times improved fuel economy. Or how about an electric conversion - plenty of space under the bonnet or where the fueld tank goes - ideal for those of us who do 50 mile trips tops.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Big_Richard on 27 October 2011, 11:18 PM
Quote from: adamb on 27 October 2011, 11:15 AM
Very nice conversion. Two weeks for a professional or person close to being a professional, I'd say. Well done. But what is the motivation? Is it for the fun of it, or just a spare mint W116 chassis?

When my 6,9 engine is dead, I think it'll be replaced by a modern 3 litre turbo diesel - same torque, nearly the same power, and 2-3 times improved fuel economy. Or how about an electric conversion - plenty of space under the bonnet or where the fueld tank goes - ideal for those of us who do 50 mile trips tops.

I dont think 6.9 engines die unless you really want it to  8)

BTW, i would purchase a different model to do an engine conversion, ie a 280SE etc with a dead motor as the 6.9 will become worthless without that m100 in there.

and my second BTW, turbo diesels may look fantastic on paper, but they are infuriating to drive if your used to the instant throttle responce of a petrol car, pulling out in heavy traffic maybe fatal and theyre also breathless in higher revs and run out of revs very quickly. Having said that, you get used to it like anything else.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 1980sdga on 30 October 2011, 01:58 PM
Someone had to say the "D" word  ;D

I like these engine conversions!  No way would I want to replace an original 6.9 but a modern powerplant would be sweet in a 116  8)

Fuel management seems to have evolved a lot faster than basic chassis engineering and these cars were cutting edge at the time.

What's the story on the side lettering?
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Mforcer on 31 October 2011, 10:27 PM
I like the fact that the engine bay still looks relatively original.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: oscar on 01 November 2011, 06:54 AM
Never mind the "D" word.  Someone said the "E" word!  Clarkson would confiscate your car Adam if he heard you wanted to do that to the iconic 6.9 :D

Awsome job 450sel5.0.  It's been said before the best way to get more oomph from a 450 is to whack a 5.0L M117 in.  It just looks at home, noone would be the wiser and no need for a car to get an engineer's inspection.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: calvin streeting on 01 November 2011, 01:59 PM
Nice job. Any stats on mpg, etc.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: jbrasile on 01 November 2011, 08:39 PM
This is such a cool conversion! Did you keep the 4 speed box from the 500 as well?

Tks,

Joe
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: adamb on 02 November 2011, 08:12 AM
Quote from: oscar on 01 November 2011, 06:54 AM
Never mind the "D" word.  Someone said the "E" word!  Clarkson would confiscate your car Adam if he heard you wanted to do that to the iconic 6.9 :D


Didn't say I want to do it. I got the 6.9 because of the engine and not in spite of it. But there may come a time when it is as dead as a dodo - whatchagonnado? OK, how about a modern 5L V8 at 400bhp!
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 02 November 2011, 08:33 AM
Quote from: adamb on 02 November 2011, 08:12 AM
OK, how about a modern 5L V8 at 400bhp!

You could use an AMG SL73 engine.  7.3 liters and 525hp.  Or the newer S-class 6.0L with 621hp.  It all just depends how ridiculous you want to be. ;)
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: oscar on 02 November 2011, 10:36 AM
Quote from: Raptelan on 02 November 2011, 08:33 AM
Quote from: adamb on 02 November 2011, 08:12 AM
OK, how about a modern 5L V8 at 400bhp!

You could use an AMG SL73 engine.  7.3 liters and 525hp.  Or the newer S-class 6.0L with 621hp.  It all just depends how ridiculous you want to be. ;)

All perfect for around town ;D  Clarkson would approve.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 13 November 2011, 08:29 PM
Quote from: adamb on 27 October 2011, 11:15 AM
Very nice conversion. Two weeks for a professional or person close to being a professional, I'd say. Well done. But what is the motivation? Is it for the fun of it, or just a spare mint W116 chassis?

When my 6,9 engine is dead, I think it'll be replaced by a modern 3 litre turbo diesel - same torque, nearly the same power, and 2-3 times improved fuel economy. Or how about an electric conversion - plenty of space under the bonnet or where the fueld tank goes - ideal for those of us who do 50 mile trips tops.

Thanks, it is awesome, I could have done it faster, I just did not have time inbetween fixing other ppls Mercedes. It's what I do for a living : )
It is my sign written advertising car, I drive it everywhere, now I can show off the big 5.0, people realy get a buzz out of it.
Thanks for your comments.  8)
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: navigator on 19 September 2012, 05:16 PM
how is the 5.0 going? Any teething problems?
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 23 September 2012, 04:15 PM
Only oil filter housing was just touching on the engine mount, I cut a very small v in the side of the mounts metal section. It has proven a very solid conversion.  ::)
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: oversize on 24 September 2012, 07:03 AM
We so need pics n video!!!!  What a great job!  Congrats to you!   :D
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: BigBlockBenz on 02 October 2012, 03:15 PM
X2 for the pics and vids.

Like your lettering on it, I'd be good advertising.  8)
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 1974450SEL on 05 October 2012, 08:41 PM
That is a sweet job!  What year car is the 5.0 from?
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 27 April 2013, 04:58 AM
Quote from: jbrasile on 01 November 2011, 08:39 PM
This is such a cool conversion! Did you keep the 4 speed box from the 500 as well?

Tks,

Joe
Sure did, Sorry for the long wait on the reply.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 27 April 2013, 05:01 AM
Quote from: 1974450SEL on 05 October 2012, 08:41 PM
That is a sweet job!  What year car is the 5.0 from?
1980 500SELW126
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 27 April 2013, 05:03 AM
Quote from: navigator on 19 September 2012, 05:16 PM
how is the 5.0 going? Any teething problems?
No Problems at all,
Thanks.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 27 April 2013, 05:04 AM
Quote from: calvin streeting on 01 November 2011, 01:59 PM
Nice job. Any stats on mpg, etc.
Lots of fuel, lots of fun  ;D
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: 450sel5.0 on 27 April 2013, 05:07 AM
Quote from: Big_Richard on 23 October 2011, 05:31 AM
what did you do re the speedo ?

I know the povo version cars that use that transmission housing such as the 190 etc use a cable operated speedo extension housing that you can bolt straight onto the v8s' 4 speed auto. or did you do something else? as correct me if im wrong, all w126s had electronic speedos ?
I have installed a speedo from a late W107 and connected the electronic pick up on the transmission to it.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 02:09 PM
Good grief Adam, a 6.9 needs to stay a 6.9 and there is no shortage of engines for them (I have one for sale on CL right now for $650 and there's another fellow down the road that's selling one for around that price too).
If you want to mess around, there are plenty of W116's to do a similar conversion to.

I bet that the oil filter housing can be transplanted from the older 4.5 M117 to the new one, but personally, as I have an oil extractor, I'd rather pull the battery tray and get it from the top.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 29 April 2013, 02:53 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 02:09 PM
If you want to mess around, there are plenty of W116's to do a similar conversion to.

Not every W116 has hydropneumatic suspension.  8)  And an engine from a 300TD with the SLS head can drive it.  Use the oil pans from a 300SD to get the clearance for a 116, and various linkages from the 300SD that were different on the later 617-based models, and you have quite an interesting, original-looking result.  I've toyed with this idea for a long time.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 02:57 PM
So?.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 29 April 2013, 03:01 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 02:57 PM
So?.

You offered criticism, I offered an explanation.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 03:28 PM
OK so the long answer:

What makes the 6.9 unique and valuable (debatable term i know) is the motor and the suspension. What can make a 6.9 more problematic then it's lower end siblings is the suspension. If you remove the 6.9 engine from a 6.9 and keep the suspension, then it's just a bastardized W116 with a pain in the arse suspension that's worthless.

So it's better to take a worthless w116 with standard suspension and bastardize it.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: jbrasile on 29 April 2013, 04:41 PM
I fully concur!!!

Tks

Joe
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 07:18 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 03:28 PM
If you remove the 6.9 engine from a 6.9 and keep the suspension, then it's just a bastardized W116 with a pain in the arse suspension that's worthless.

So it's better to take a worthless w116 with standard suspension and bastardize it.

This is subjective. True, the modified car probably wouldn't have much market value (unless someone already wanted one and this was exactly what they are after). To the person modifying the car, the car could be priceless and more enjoyable than a regular 6.9. A purist or investor would not want it, but someone who would like a car that the factory never built could have great joy in a custom job.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: jbrasile on 29 April 2013, 08:52 PM
Here is the thing...

Certain cars that had very limited production, were incredibly expensive and became "significant"  vehicles should  be treated differently than others produced in the 10's of thousands. 7380 copies do not make a 6.9 as "important"  as a 300SL Gullwing / Roadster, but how many 116036's still survive  in the world today? If we agree that anything is valid to please the whims of an owner then each car that is sacrificed means one less example of a legend roaming the streets of our planet, a sad thing in my opinion...

Tks

Joe
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 09:14 PM
Then you guys are really going to hate my 1967 Mercedes W110 station wagon when I'm through with it. It's an extremely rare vehicle, but I sold the original 6 cylinder gasoline engine and installed a 5 cylinder turbocharged diesel engine. I'm also going to transplant what's left of the body onto a long-nose W111 sedan to make it into a W111 station wagon, and will add a sunroof. They never made my dream car at the factory, so I am going to build it myself and enjoy it for the rest of my life as a daily driver.

The thing is, it will look stock, not customized, even though it has been customized. It will look the way the factory would have done things. It will have more horsepower than the original engine, more torque, and much better fuel economy while being easier to work on--and will last longer between rebuilds, as well as the ability to run on biodiesel.

I do agree that hodge-podging a car together and doing a hack job of it to get a few more miles out of it until it conks out for good is a big disservice. I've seen a lot of cars where parts were made to fit to get the driver by for a few more miles, and then junked the car once something major broke.

I have seen the occasional Chevrolet 350 V-8 in 450SELs and thought, "What?..." But, then again, from a practical standpoint, once a 450 engine wears out, it may be more cost-effective to install a common engine that is more easily serviced at your local garage. I dunno...
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: oversize on 29 April 2013, 09:15 PM
Quote from: adamb on 27 October 2011, 11:15 AM
Very nice conversion. Two weeks for a professional or person close to being a professional, I'd say. Well done. But what is the motivation? Is it for the fun of it, or just a spare mint W116 chassis?

When my 6,9 engine is dead, I think it'll be replaced by a modern 3 litre turbo diesel - same torque, nearly the same power, and 2-3 times improved fuel economy. Or how about an electric conversion - plenty of space under the bonnet or where the fueld tank goes - ideal for those of us who do 50 mile trips tops.

That's almost as bad as putting a SB / BB / LS1 Chev into one!  Fair enough on anything other than a 350/280SEL or 6.9
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 09:21 PM
Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 07:18 PMThis is subjective.
One can say that about anything if they remove common sense.

Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 09:25 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 09:21 PM
Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 07:18 PMThis is subjective.
One can say that about anything if they remove common sense.

Alright, I'm through. I made my point. No sense arguing.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: jbrasile on 29 April 2013, 09:30 PM
Squiggle,

You've probably heard of these guys:

http://www.mechatronik.de/welcome-to-mechatronik-the-spirit-of-classic-specialized-on-mercedes-classic-cars.html

They do the most incredible "Frankenteins"  on the planet!!! And you know what, I would not mind driving one of their conversions BUT, I spoke to them in Essen and they are extremely strict when choosing a car to  upgrade. Case and point: a 300S that has been modernized with a 3.6 M104 AMG engine and is featured regularly in shows, events and articles, the car had a bad engine  and WAS NOT a fuel injected version, if that were the case Mechatronik will refuse to modify the vehicle due to its historical importance. And that's what we are saying, 6.3's and 6.9's are becoming so few in the world that as tempted and one might be to satisfy his or hers personal wishes, we should try to preserve as many cars in their original state as possible.

Tks

Joe
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: TJ 450 on 29 April 2013, 10:30 PM
Mods that go against the car's originality never go down well among enthusiasts. I would say do whatever you want, but it's always going to create these sorts of arguments.

Tim
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 10:32 PM
Thanks for the link, Joe. It sure looks like a lot of effort and money goes into those cars.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 10:33 PM
I also want to clarify what I meant by "this is subjective", since it was implied that I do not have common sense. Kind of rude, but maybe my statement was misunderstood? Though the vehicle may have a hurt market value, the owner may love his car and it may have more value to him than an original example. It irks me when people are opinionated and criticize others' ideas like they are the police.

Drama starts when someone has a strong opinion and feel they have to condescend on others that don't feel the same way. So, the other person defends their opinion and then the first person tries to discredit them. And on it goes... I think there would be less tension on this forum if there wasn't so much criticism, and if given, at least consider the poster's viewpoint and just let it be.

I really dislike people telling me what to do. People have tried to do this my whole life and I've found that listening to my own instincts has gotten me a lot further, and many times others have been wrong, despite their thinking they knew what was best for me. I'll drive what I want to drive. If it means cutting up a Gullwing, so be it. It's no one else's business what I do with my money.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 29 April 2013, 11:00 PM
Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 10:33 PM
I also want to clarify what I meant by "this is subjective", since it was implied that I do not have common sense. Kind of rude

Now that's subjective ;)

Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 10:33 PM
I really dislike people telling me what to do. People have tried to do this my whole life and I've found that listening to my own instincts has gotten me a lot further, and many times others have been wrong, despite their thinking they knew what was best for me. I'll drive what I want to drive. If it means cutting up a Gullwing, so be it. It's no one else's business what I do with my money.

I think you need to work through some issues here that have nothing to do with me (the nothing to do with me part is not subjective)

Please be aware that of the following:
1) I did not disapprove of the OP's conversion. I like it.
2) I responded to Adamb's post, not yours. I don't know why your taking it so personally when its not your car.
3) I don't think that I've made any comments good or bad on any modification that you've performed on your car. As you suggest, it's your car and you can do what you like with it.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: jbrasile on 29 April 2013, 11:00 PM
Squiggle,

I hope I don't sound like I am trying to impose my will and opinion on anyone, we all have our point of you and I always try to express mine in a non offensive way.

I also like the 5 liter conversion very much. For some reason the 5.0 version of the M117 is a much smoother engine than the 4.5, it will idle at a glassy 600rpm all day in D,  really nice.

Now cutting up a Gullwing, arghhhhhhh..... can we just agree to add a/c?....the car is like an oven on a  hot day and almost impossible to drive... hehehe... very popular and welcome mod in the US.

Tks

Joe
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: adamb on 30 April 2013, 04:56 AM
Erm, I never want to replace the M100 unit and there's a 99.9999% probability that I won't but, if it came to it, one can get better power and torque from a 3 litre turbo diesel nowadays. Over where I live doing this transplant is price comparable to seeking out another M100 in good condition. Fundamentally I like the way the car looks, rides and the performance. So I wouldn't want to change those externally perceptible fundamentals. Tell you what though, if I could get 30 mpg I'd sure drive it more! Either way, this is just too theoretical and mostly hot air... just playing with ideas.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 30 April 2013, 11:09 AM
It may or may not be the same as what you or others would like to see done to a car but eh look on the bright side - the more cars are "bastardized" into something non-original, the more the remaining few like the ones you own are worth.

The way I see it, I'm getting a free 6.9 that would otherwise just continue to rot away sitting outside.  It would almost certainly go to the scrapper if somebody like me didn't come along and take it, and most people would probably at most use it as a parts donor for another 6.9 (which in fact I will do on an as-needed basis if I can't find/afford parts for the euro 6.9 project right away, but then replace in time).

So what's wrong with taking such a vehicle, loving it's suspension that some people seem to think is just worth "putting up with" in order to have an M100, and making it into a more personally-desirable vehicle?  I drive a lot - while the M100 I am sure is loads of fun and a nice engine in general, it's as expensive to drive around as a Hummer.  With the money saved on fuel by driving an OM617 versus an M100 for over a hundred miles each day, I can easily afford to keep up with suspension repair needs, and really enjoy the nice suspension for a significant amount of time every day.  It would never be a show car by any means, but at the same time would be very enjoyable, and since I'd use an OM617 rather than a newer engine transplant, it would be period-correct and look like the high-end 300SDL that Mercedes would have made if they had chosen to make such a vehicle in the 1970's.  Performance isn't the same but honestly is quite enough in a 300SD and I can't imagine it being that much worse with the slight added weight of a long wheelbase chassis.  I've always loved diesel cars and especially the OM617 - it's just a very charming engine and extra power isn't everything.

I'm not sure if that's realistically a road I'll ever actually go down but I'm not going to forget it just because others wouldn't choose the same road themselves.  There are plenty of good reasons for both sides of the argument and it has nothing to do with whether one is "sensible" or not - sensibility depends on one's priorities.  To claim that only one particular choice is sensible is simply to be dogmatic.

I know you weren't addressing me Al, but I'd like to respond to your points:

Quote1) I did not disapprove of the OP's conversion. I like it.

I personally dislike it, insofar as I would never choose to do the same thing myself.  I don't like seeing more modern engines in older chassis's.  That said, I don't disapprove of it, and I really admire the OP's technical ability and willingness to undertake such an endeavor.  I think it's important that we all try to see the bright sides in things, even if they are choices we don't personally like.  I think you like it because your priorities are a little different, and include having a very powerful engine.  They also seem to include the notion that a 450SEL is a more worthless vehicle so customizing it isn't offensive whereas modifying a rarer model is.  I personally really enjoy when somebody takes a more "worthless" W116 and puts loving care into restoring it, rather than just focusing on the rarer models.  I personally really don't like modifications like huge rims and lowered suspensions and conversions to a non-Mercedes engine but if that's what somebody wants to do and they are technically able to pull it off, more power to them!  Realistically, the number of W116's on the road is dropping dramatically over time, and that wouldn't be lessened at all even if everyone were strict about originality.  If one's priorities include making a restoration provide a return on investment, then being strict about originality makes more sense than customizations; however the opposite is true if one's priorities include having a car tailored for personal enjoyment.

Quote2) I responded to Adamb's post, not yours. I don't know why your taking it so personally when its not your car.

I can't speak for Squiggle, but I personally didn't like seeing the criticism as it sounded overly harsh and discouraging.  Objecting to harsh/discouraging statements is different from taking something personally, I think.

Quote3) I don't think that I've made any comments good or bad on any modification that you've performed on your car. As you suggest, it's your car and you can do what you like with it.

Isn't the same true of adamb and his car?  I think so...

I think it is perfectly valid and appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you're going to face these negative consequences you may have though of", e.g. loss of resalability in the case of an engine swap; however I don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 12:22 PM
Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 11:09 AMI don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".

That's not what I said.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 30 April 2013, 02:01 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 12:22 PM
Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 11:09 AMI don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".

That's not what I said.

Okay, if we want to play pedantics, I don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that an opinion different than one's own requires the removal of common sense to be considered subjective.  I really don't care to bicker though...
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 03:39 PM
Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 02:01 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 12:22 PM
Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 11:09 AMI don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".

That's not what I said.
Okay, if we want to play pedantics, I don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that an opinion different than one's own requires the removal of common sense to be considered subjective.  I really don't care to bicker though...

My point is that the term subjective can be applied to any argument if one removes common sense. Don't you agree?

In the end, I'm not imposing my opinion onto you or him. I just chimed in on Adamb's post about his car because he did not seem to be the type who was on a crusade for artistic individuality. This seems to have hit a nerve for you or the other fellow. As my comment was not directed at you, I expect that this is probably a self inflected wound which has been open for some time before I turned up.

So just to be clear, whatever you all want to do with a clapped out 116's is up to you. If that means turning 6.9 into a diesel then more power to you. I encourage you to keep doing so.

There are plenty of 'originals' in junk yards today. Maybe if you keep buying them all up, it will create a W116 bubble and we can all benefit from your initiative :)

Good luck!
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 30 April 2013, 04:08 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 03:39 PM
This seems to have hit a nerve for you or the other fellow. As my comment was not directed at you, I expect that this is probably a self inflected wound which has been open for some time before I turned up.

No, it's simply that this is a public forum, where responses from the public are normal and encouraged regardless of who your message may have been directed to.  Private messages are the solution for things that you don't want anybody but the recipient to respond to.  No idea how this it could be considered to be a "self-inflicted wound" to simply share perspective and opinion in a non-aggressive manner.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 30 April 2013, 04:19 PM
I'm fine now, and want us to all get along, so no hard feelings here. The criticism just came off a little blunt to those of us that like to modify cars to our taste, and when I put in my explanation of why people like to change things, it started to become a debate, which I don't care for because we all have our opinions, and it seemed one of them was stated as a fact, that anyone else who feels differently is wrong.

The whole "subjective" thing... dang... I only meant to say that it is not "better" to "bastardize" a 450SEL or other model if you truly want to have the hydropneumatic suspension of a 6.9. Though a collector/investor would not want to touch such a vehicle, the owner of the vehicle might be quite happy with it, meaning what holds true for the collector isn't necessarily true for the vehicle owner, making it a question of "to whom?" rather than an unchangeable fact.

True, if you don't care for that type of suspension or can't afford the upkeep, then it would make no sense to modify a 6.9 with another engine. And, it is to be expected that if one was to ever sell the vehicle, to expect less than market value (this is where it makes sense to keep the car for your own enjoyment, as it has been put before "Customized cars are like your used underwear... no one wants them.")

I do agree that when it comes to selling cars, you will get more money out of one that is totally original unless you find that one special buyer that the vehicle suits. But to abstain from building one's dream car just because it would upset the Mercedes gods? I think that's what rubbed me the wrong way, and that my point didn't seem to be taken despite my efforts to portray why someone would think differently.

I'm willing to let it go, I've just learned to become more vocal about things that bother me over the years as letting things eat at me has caused me lots of problems. I hope we can understand each others' viewpoints and not think of each others' opinions as right or wrong, just personal taste that we may not always agree with, but are willing to be supportive of what we do agree with and focus on the good.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 30 April 2013, 04:24 PM
Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 30 April 2013, 04:19 PM
I hope we can understand each others' viewpoints and not think of each others' opinions as right or wrong, just personal taste that we may not always agree with, but are willing to be supportive of what we do agree with and focus on the good.

Agreed entirely.  Text can be a difficult medium at times, because we cannot hear the emotion/intent behind the words and it's all up to assumption.  Discouraging words can come across quite harshly, probably more than intended by the authors.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 04:28 PM
Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 04:08 PMNo, it's simply that this is a public forum, where responses from the public are normal and encouraged regardless of who your message may have been directed to.  Private messages are the solution for things that you don't want anybody but the recipient to respond to.  No idea how this it could be considered to be a "self-inflicted wound" to simply share perspective and opinion in a non-aggressive manner.

You've missed the point, it is a public forum and I responded publicly about converting the 6.9 to diesel. I see nothing wrong with my comment. If that hurt your feelings or anyone else, it's not my concern. There are lots of experienced people on this and every other forum that agree with me. After all, the classic car community is made from people who are interested in preserving old cars and not ruining them right?

Expecting people to keep quite on the suggestion of taking a limited number car and bastardizing it is like watching a monkey play with a hand grenade and asking everyone not to say anything. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but it won't stop people from saying something.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 30 April 2013, 04:41 PM
I'm okay with the above as long as it's agreed that this is all opinion and taste and not fact.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 30 April 2013, 04:51 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 04:28 PM
You've missed the point, it is a public forum and I responded publicly about converting the 6.9 to diesel. I see nothing wrong with my comment. If that hurt your feelings or anyone else, it's not my concern. There are lots of experienced people on this and every other forum that agree with me. After all, the classic car community is made from people who are interested in preserving old cars and not ruining them right?

From my perspective, it seems I've hurt your feelings - mine are definitely not hurt. As I said above - you offered criticism, I offered explanation in response - that is all. Everything I've written has been objective. There are lots who agree with you but also many who don't - I don't expect or want you to keep quiet - just suggesting that (not directed at you personally) we try to avoid statements that intend or inadvertently imply personal insult. As an example, you may well have had no ill intent with the common sense statement and have expressed that you did not (and I believe you) but it sounded like it did when I initially read it. But again though I chose to respond to some of your points I was meaning my comments to be general, not specifically at or about you. Again text is limited so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

The classic car community is made of all sorts of owners of the cars for all different purposes - I would say the vast majority is actually not interested in preservation in the restorative sense but rather in the practical driver sense. Others care about pristine restoration, others about reselling at profit, others about parts sales, others about historical details, others about customization, others about showing, others about racing, etc.

Anyways I think I've said all I care to on the subject, and intend no hard feelings, so I'm going to respectfully bow out of the discussion...
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 04:58 PM
 I don't have the time to read all this. As I said do as you like.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: oversize on 30 April 2013, 08:11 PM
Without inflaming the situation, it all depends upon what the owner wants out of THEIR vehicle.  I disagree with anyone that stands on a high-horse and proclaims that what someone else has done is wrong.

The term 'common sense' isn't specific and really applies to general (average) opinion.  And just because it's what the majority would do, doesn't mean it suits the individual; we're all different after all.

However I am (personally) all for preserving history and would hate to see a rare vehicle cut up or converted into something vastly different.  A 6.9 is all about THAT engine with THAT suspension and without both the historical value will plummet.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: navigator on 10 June 2013, 02:37 PM
Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 10:33 PM
I also want to clarify what I meant by "this is subjective", since it was implied that I do not have common sense. Kind of rude, but maybe my statement was misunderstood? Though the vehicle may have a hurt market value, the owner may love his car and it may have more value to him than an original example. It irks me when people are opinionated and criticize others' ideas like they are the police.

Drama starts when someone has a strong opinion and feel they have to condescend on others that don't feel the same way. So, the other person defends their opinion and then the first person tries to discredit them. And on it goes... I think there would be less tension on this forum if there wasn't so much criticism, and if given, at least consider the poster's viewpoint and just let it be.

I really dislike people telling me what to do. People have tried to do this my whole life and I've found that listening to my own instincts has gotten me a lot further, and many times others have been wrong, despite their thinking they knew what was best for me. I'll drive what I want to drive. If it means cutting up a Gullwing, so be it. It's no one else's business what I do with my money.

I concur ;)
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: navigator on 10 June 2013, 02:41 PM
BUT:

lets get back to the conversion issue!

I am almost 100% sure that my 350 will get better mileage from a 500 - can anyone confirm or deny?
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: W116-M117 on 10 June 2013, 04:44 PM
I'm really surprised of that discussion. Maybe that such a modification are not admitted in Italy (and therefore who is going to do that knows very well the potential consequence with law), maybe that it's not easy to find an engine in good condition (any Mercedes-Benz in Italy is used to run several tens of thousands km per year, so an old Mercedes-Benz at the scrapyard usually has an engine with no less than 5-600000 km), maybe this or that, it's really hard for me to verify what is the meaning of it in my "environment"... nevertheless it's a singular discussion because the matter sometimes sounds strange for me. And not for these particular reasons, but for general item.

First, I agree that a car owner can do whatever he would like to do with his car. Right. But I have the same right to disapprove it, if I have such an opinion. Right. And I'd like that this my disapproval would not be considered by the car owner as something that he must obey. It's only the freedom to say: "I do not like it". Hope that's clear.

For example, I really disapprove a rare W110 Universal (and rarer with an M180 engine) modified with a more recent turbodiesel engine. Can I say it? And can I have the freedom to say it, hoping that it won't be considered as something that I'd like to impose to the car owner? Because it's not my task to give orders to anyone: only, tell my opinion. Stop.

To whom is interested, I can explain my opinion with reasonable - and simple - supports: I start from the fact that driving is very different Country to Country. Depending from the roads, from the laws, from the traffic. Indeed, based on my work experience (I work since 1995 in the automotive) I know car is not only engine. It's only a part of it. May be the car body is able to support a doubled power, i.e. from 100 to 200 HP, but what about steering? What about suspension? What about brakes? What about the weight and gravity center? And, finally, what about the car behaviour in critical traffic condition, not only wheather, but also a child that pass through the way and oblige the driver to run an emergency handling?

Mine is not an absolute criticism to that "transformed cars", but only technical observation. Just like example (no purpose from my side to criticize none in particular, but just as examples posted here: I could describe hundreds of similar situation), a 450SEL with a 5 l. engine is not a problem, as far as its power is a bit more than a 4.5 l. specimen, weight is lower (5.0 l. has alloy block, whereas the 4.5 l is a cast iron one) so brakes have an easier work to do, and a bit more rigid front axle (because the reduced weight) could improve the car handling in any bend. On the contrary, a turbodiesel engine, heavier, more performant, in a car which brakes are front rotors only (back the drums) and suspension with the notorious "Pendelachse" on the rear... mmmmhhh, doesn't get me confident. Maybe in a Country where traffic is slow, no high speed is allowed in the highway, maybe the driver is a very careful one and his driving style is a calm and quiet one, etc. etc.... OK. Good. Well, I hope that no emergency situation will occur, as far as the modified car could present surprises... not necessary beautiful.

Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: TJ 450 on 10 June 2013, 11:59 PM
My response to this is;

Whatever. ::)

There's enough of these cars around, that it just doesn't matter what people do with them, although I would try and save.

Tim
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 11 June 2013, 12:55 AM
When modifying my vehicle, I take into consideration safety and handling issues. I don't think the turbo diesel engine is a whole lot heavier than the gasoline engine, though I am sure it is a bit heavier--but it doesn't seem to sag down the front end much. I also plan to convert the rear drums to discs, possibly using a limited slip differential from a W108 or W112 with a taller gear ratio and rear discs. I would install larger rotors up front as well, with the proper master cylinder. The W110/W111 chassis sedans had rather stiff springs from the factory. I drove my W110 200D with blown out shocks for a while and hardly noticed.

If I did not purchase my Universal to modify into a daily driver which I will enjoy, it would most likely waste away in someone's "collection" in a field, or be kept away in a garage and only used and seen by others occasionally. I, on the other hand, would be using it daily and it would get to be seen and enjoyed by others on a daily basis, instead of being hoarded away unappreciated.

Sometimes it's about owning a car that should have been built, but never was because Mercedes did not invent the engine at the time, but looking back, the engine and body combination would have been amazing. For me, the fintails are my favorite Mercedes ever built. But, I have lost interest in gasoline engines and am totally into diesels now. 200D fintails are great, but turbocharged 5 cylinder diesel engines are incredible, and are my favorite engine. By putting the two together, I have a totally amazing car that is the best of both worlds. The author of this post may well feel the same way about his 5 liter V8.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Casey on 11 June 2013, 10:04 AM
Everyone can have whatever opinions they want to have, and ultimately, it's up to the owner to do (or not do) whatever they want to their purchases.  My only ask is that we try to not name-call (directly or implied) and put one another down on this forum.  There have been members who have left the forum over this, and it's really stressful when one is attacked directly.

If I see someone weld on 50's Cadillac taillight's to their W116, I may think it looks absolutely hideous and would never do such a thing myself, but what is there to be gained by telling them they're an idiot for doing it?  If it brings them happiness good for them!  Doesn't affect me either way since it's not my car and never would have been or will be.  Time destroys everything and one day no matter what else may happen, there will be -no- W116's left.

I recently saw a M100 engine from a 600 for sale, and inquired about it's history from the seller - they owned a nice 600, but were tired of trying to keep up with astronomical maintenance costs, and instead were putting the entire suspension and drivetrain and whatnot else from a brand new S-class under it's chassis, so that they could drive and enjoy the car.  And why not?  At the same time it's wonderful to see a perfectly-maintained-to-original-specification 600.  Doesn't need to be just one side in the world, and nobody's anything lesser for choosing a different path than our own.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: oversize on 13 June 2013, 07:23 PM
Back to the original topic....  How does the new engine compare to the old (specs etc)?  Is there a video??
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: navigator on 14 July 2013, 02:14 PM
yeah yeah!! :) :)

Lets see/hear a video asap.

What is the power diff (in kw) between a 350 and 500?
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: Tony66_au on 20 July 2013, 11:47 PM
Personally I found the 500SE/SEL to be a far more sporty engine and the 560 to be lazy.

The 450 M117 is a torque monster but again not what youd call sporty unlike the M116 3.5 which revs like a bitch, has a great note and is more fun IMO.

So, based on what I know the 5.0 will be a sweeter version of the 4.5, both M117 engines but the greater displacement and bore/stroke makes the 5.0 betterer.

Now about this W116 Bubble..................

Got a fair few of them now (Drove another home a few weeks ago) and im waiting for the values to increase so Git Busy collectin boy!
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: hcorrea1977 on 06 December 2020, 09:15 AM
i am doing the same conversion to my 450sel 1977. i have found a low miles engine out of 1985 500sel. i will like to get a little more detail on the tailshaft modification and the selector lever. thanks so much sorry to resurrect this old thread.
Quote from: 450sel5.0 on 23 October 2011, 01:12 AM
Here it is people, I have spent 2 weeks putting this together, 8) goes hard and only needed minor mods, extended tailshaft by 35mm, changed shape of sump at the rear to give enough clearance. I used the original alternator, powersteer pump and air cond pump from the 450. Changing my oil filter is going to be a pain because I will have to remove the battery and battery tray every time, but who cares !!!
4 speed auto behind it now too, the selector lever needed to be extended also, no big deal. Engine mounts off the 450 bolt right on the 500 engine so all good.
One of the easiest conversions ever.  ;D

(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31942-1/IMG_1437+_Medium_.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31936-1/IMG_1439+_Medium_.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31939-1/IMG_1438+_Medium_.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/31933-1/IMG_1441+_Medium_.jpg)
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: robertd on 09 December 2020, 07:46 PM
Hi hcorrea1977
I did the very same conversion a few years back. put an all alloy 5lt m117 motor and tranni from an 1981 500SEL into a 450SE sedan. It was fairly straight forward. Here a a couple of things i remember:
1. I used the gear selector lever rod from the w126 and just cut it down a tad.
2. I had to rewire the gear select plug to stop it starting in gear. ( one is flat the other round i think?)
3. I used the 450 engine exhaust pipes but used a dremmel to open the pipes up approx 1/16th to match the larger outlets.
4. I pretty sure i didn't need to extend the drive shaft, just over extended it a smidge
5. The fuel pump safety cut of switch (the blue plug) that sits just in front of the fuel distributor is missing on the 500 motor. i
     believe it was electronic on the 126. so i just ran the gauntlet on that on. ( need to find the correct loom and connect it)
6. The engine mounts just drop in to the 450's no problem.
7. Last but not least was the fact that the 500 motor sits slightly further back so that the bottom of the bell housing touches
     the tubular cross yoke. I did a bit if surgery on it to make it fit.
     I hope this has answered some of you questions and good luck with the project.
Title: Re: 450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!
Post by: robertd on 09 December 2020, 07:53 PM
Here I found my old post, but the photos are missing

https://forum.w116.org/test-drive/snatched-from-the-jaws-of-the-crusher/msg101708/#msg101708