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450sel 5.0ltr 500sel engine !!!

Started by 450sel5.0, 23 October 2011, 01:12 AM

adamb

Erm, I never want to replace the M100 unit and there's a 99.9999% probability that I won't but, if it came to it, one can get better power and torque from a 3 litre turbo diesel nowadays. Over where I live doing this transplant is price comparable to seeking out another M100 in good condition. Fundamentally I like the way the car looks, rides and the performance. So I wouldn't want to change those externally perceptible fundamentals. Tell you what though, if I could get 30 mpg I'd sure drive it more! Either way, this is just too theoretical and mostly hot air... just playing with ideas.

Casey

It may or may not be the same as what you or others would like to see done to a car but eh look on the bright side - the more cars are "bastardized" into something non-original, the more the remaining few like the ones you own are worth.

The way I see it, I'm getting a free 6.9 that would otherwise just continue to rot away sitting outside.  It would almost certainly go to the scrapper if somebody like me didn't come along and take it, and most people would probably at most use it as a parts donor for another 6.9 (which in fact I will do on an as-needed basis if I can't find/afford parts for the euro 6.9 project right away, but then replace in time).

So what's wrong with taking such a vehicle, loving it's suspension that some people seem to think is just worth "putting up with" in order to have an M100, and making it into a more personally-desirable vehicle?  I drive a lot - while the M100 I am sure is loads of fun and a nice engine in general, it's as expensive to drive around as a Hummer.  With the money saved on fuel by driving an OM617 versus an M100 for over a hundred miles each day, I can easily afford to keep up with suspension repair needs, and really enjoy the nice suspension for a significant amount of time every day.  It would never be a show car by any means, but at the same time would be very enjoyable, and since I'd use an OM617 rather than a newer engine transplant, it would be period-correct and look like the high-end 300SDL that Mercedes would have made if they had chosen to make such a vehicle in the 1970's.  Performance isn't the same but honestly is quite enough in a 300SD and I can't imagine it being that much worse with the slight added weight of a long wheelbase chassis.  I've always loved diesel cars and especially the OM617 - it's just a very charming engine and extra power isn't everything.

I'm not sure if that's realistically a road I'll ever actually go down but I'm not going to forget it just because others wouldn't choose the same road themselves.  There are plenty of good reasons for both sides of the argument and it has nothing to do with whether one is "sensible" or not - sensibility depends on one's priorities.  To claim that only one particular choice is sensible is simply to be dogmatic.

I know you weren't addressing me Al, but I'd like to respond to your points:

Quote1) I did not disapprove of the OP's conversion. I like it.

I personally dislike it, insofar as I would never choose to do the same thing myself.  I don't like seeing more modern engines in older chassis's.  That said, I don't disapprove of it, and I really admire the OP's technical ability and willingness to undertake such an endeavor.  I think it's important that we all try to see the bright sides in things, even if they are choices we don't personally like.  I think you like it because your priorities are a little different, and include having a very powerful engine.  They also seem to include the notion that a 450SEL is a more worthless vehicle so customizing it isn't offensive whereas modifying a rarer model is.  I personally really enjoy when somebody takes a more "worthless" W116 and puts loving care into restoring it, rather than just focusing on the rarer models.  I personally really don't like modifications like huge rims and lowered suspensions and conversions to a non-Mercedes engine but if that's what somebody wants to do and they are technically able to pull it off, more power to them!  Realistically, the number of W116's on the road is dropping dramatically over time, and that wouldn't be lessened at all even if everyone were strict about originality.  If one's priorities include making a restoration provide a return on investment, then being strict about originality makes more sense than customizations; however the opposite is true if one's priorities include having a car tailored for personal enjoyment.

Quote2) I responded to Adamb's post, not yours. I don't know why your taking it so personally when its not your car.

I can't speak for Squiggle, but I personally didn't like seeing the criticism as it sounded overly harsh and discouraging.  Objecting to harsh/discouraging statements is different from taking something personally, I think.

Quote3) I don't think that I've made any comments good or bad on any modification that you've performed on your car. As you suggest, it's your car and you can do what you like with it.

Isn't the same true of adamb and his car?  I think so...

I think it is perfectly valid and appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you're going to face these negative consequences you may have though of", e.g. loss of resalability in the case of an engine swap; however I don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".

alabbasi

Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 11:09 AMI don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".

That's not what I said.
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

Casey

Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 12:22 PM
Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 11:09 AMI don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".

That's not what I said.

Okay, if we want to play pedantics, I don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that an opinion different than one's own requires the removal of common sense to be considered subjective.  I really don't care to bicker though...

alabbasi

Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 02:01 PM
Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 12:22 PM
Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 11:09 AMI don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that "if you do X, you lack sensibility or are doing something wrong".

That's not what I said.
Okay, if we want to play pedantics, I don't find it valid or appropriate to suggest that an opinion different than one's own requires the removal of common sense to be considered subjective.  I really don't care to bicker though...

My point is that the term subjective can be applied to any argument if one removes common sense. Don't you agree?

In the end, I'm not imposing my opinion onto you or him. I just chimed in on Adamb's post about his car because he did not seem to be the type who was on a crusade for artistic individuality. This seems to have hit a nerve for you or the other fellow. As my comment was not directed at you, I expect that this is probably a self inflected wound which has been open for some time before I turned up.

So just to be clear, whatever you all want to do with a clapped out 116's is up to you. If that means turning 6.9 into a diesel then more power to you. I encourage you to keep doing so.

There are plenty of 'originals' in junk yards today. Maybe if you keep buying them all up, it will create a W116 bubble and we can all benefit from your initiative :)

Good luck!
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

Casey

Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 03:39 PM
This seems to have hit a nerve for you or the other fellow. As my comment was not directed at you, I expect that this is probably a self inflected wound which has been open for some time before I turned up.

No, it's simply that this is a public forum, where responses from the public are normal and encouraged regardless of who your message may have been directed to.  Private messages are the solution for things that you don't want anybody but the recipient to respond to.  No idea how this it could be considered to be a "self-inflicted wound" to simply share perspective and opinion in a non-aggressive manner.

Squiggle Dog

I'm fine now, and want us to all get along, so no hard feelings here. The criticism just came off a little blunt to those of us that like to modify cars to our taste, and when I put in my explanation of why people like to change things, it started to become a debate, which I don't care for because we all have our opinions, and it seemed one of them was stated as a fact, that anyone else who feels differently is wrong.

The whole "subjective" thing... dang... I only meant to say that it is not "better" to "bastardize" a 450SEL or other model if you truly want to have the hydropneumatic suspension of a 6.9. Though a collector/investor would not want to touch such a vehicle, the owner of the vehicle might be quite happy with it, meaning what holds true for the collector isn't necessarily true for the vehicle owner, making it a question of "to whom?" rather than an unchangeable fact.

True, if you don't care for that type of suspension or can't afford the upkeep, then it would make no sense to modify a 6.9 with another engine. And, it is to be expected that if one was to ever sell the vehicle, to expect less than market value (this is where it makes sense to keep the car for your own enjoyment, as it has been put before "Customized cars are like your used underwear... no one wants them.")

I do agree that when it comes to selling cars, you will get more money out of one that is totally original unless you find that one special buyer that the vehicle suits. But to abstain from building one's dream car just because it would upset the Mercedes gods? I think that's what rubbed me the wrong way, and that my point didn't seem to be taken despite my efforts to portray why someone would think differently.

I'm willing to let it go, I've just learned to become more vocal about things that bother me over the years as letting things eat at me has caused me lots of problems. I hope we can understand each others' viewpoints and not think of each others' opinions as right or wrong, just personal taste that we may not always agree with, but are willing to be supportive of what we do agree with and focus on the good.
Stop paying for animal cruelty and slaughter. Go vegan! [url="https://challenge22.com/"]https://challenge22.com/[/url]

1967 W110 Universal Wagon, Euro, Turbo Diesel, Tail Fins, 4 Speed Manual Column Shift, A/C
1980 W116 300SD Turbo Diesel, DB479 Walnut Brown, Sunroof, Heated Seats, 350,000+

Casey

Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 30 April 2013, 04:19 PM
I hope we can understand each others' viewpoints and not think of each others' opinions as right or wrong, just personal taste that we may not always agree with, but are willing to be supportive of what we do agree with and focus on the good.

Agreed entirely.  Text can be a difficult medium at times, because we cannot hear the emotion/intent behind the words and it's all up to assumption.  Discouraging words can come across quite harshly, probably more than intended by the authors.

alabbasi

Quote from: Casey on 30 April 2013, 04:08 PMNo, it's simply that this is a public forum, where responses from the public are normal and encouraged regardless of who your message may have been directed to.  Private messages are the solution for things that you don't want anybody but the recipient to respond to.  No idea how this it could be considered to be a "self-inflicted wound" to simply share perspective and opinion in a non-aggressive manner.

You've missed the point, it is a public forum and I responded publicly about converting the 6.9 to diesel. I see nothing wrong with my comment. If that hurt your feelings or anyone else, it's not my concern. There are lots of experienced people on this and every other forum that agree with me. After all, the classic car community is made from people who are interested in preserving old cars and not ruining them right?

Expecting people to keep quite on the suggestion of taking a limited number car and bastardizing it is like watching a monkey play with a hand grenade and asking everyone not to say anything. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but it won't stop people from saying something.
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

Squiggle Dog

I'm okay with the above as long as it's agreed that this is all opinion and taste and not fact.
Stop paying for animal cruelty and slaughter. Go vegan! [url="https://challenge22.com/"]https://challenge22.com/[/url]

1967 W110 Universal Wagon, Euro, Turbo Diesel, Tail Fins, 4 Speed Manual Column Shift, A/C
1980 W116 300SD Turbo Diesel, DB479 Walnut Brown, Sunroof, Heated Seats, 350,000+

Casey

#55
Quote from: alabbasi on 30 April 2013, 04:28 PM
You've missed the point, it is a public forum and I responded publicly about converting the 6.9 to diesel. I see nothing wrong with my comment. If that hurt your feelings or anyone else, it's not my concern. There are lots of experienced people on this and every other forum that agree with me. After all, the classic car community is made from people who are interested in preserving old cars and not ruining them right?

From my perspective, it seems I've hurt your feelings - mine are definitely not hurt. As I said above - you offered criticism, I offered explanation in response - that is all. Everything I've written has been objective. There are lots who agree with you but also many who don't - I don't expect or want you to keep quiet - just suggesting that (not directed at you personally) we try to avoid statements that intend or inadvertently imply personal insult. As an example, you may well have had no ill intent with the common sense statement and have expressed that you did not (and I believe you) but it sounded like it did when I initially read it. But again though I chose to respond to some of your points I was meaning my comments to be general, not specifically at or about you. Again text is limited so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

The classic car community is made of all sorts of owners of the cars for all different purposes - I would say the vast majority is actually not interested in preservation in the restorative sense but rather in the practical driver sense. Others care about pristine restoration, others about reselling at profit, others about parts sales, others about historical details, others about customization, others about showing, others about racing, etc.

Anyways I think I've said all I care to on the subject, and intend no hard feelings, so I'm going to respectfully bow out of the discussion...

alabbasi

#56
 I don't have the time to read all this. As I said do as you like.
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

oversize

Without inflaming the situation, it all depends upon what the owner wants out of THEIR vehicle.  I disagree with anyone that stands on a high-horse and proclaims that what someone else has done is wrong.

The term 'common sense' isn't specific and really applies to general (average) opinion.  And just because it's what the majority would do, doesn't mean it suits the individual; we're all different after all.

However I am (personally) all for preserving history and would hate to see a rare vehicle cut up or converted into something vastly different.  A 6.9 is all about THAT engine with THAT suspension and without both the historical value will plummet.
1979 6.9 #5541 (Red Bull)
1978 6.9 #4248 (Skye)
1979 6.9 #3686 (Moby Dick)
1978 6.9 #1776 (Dora)
1977 450SEL #7010 white -P
1975 450SEL #8414 gold -P

navigator

Quote from: Squiggle Dog on 29 April 2013, 10:33 PM
I also want to clarify what I meant by "this is subjective", since it was implied that I do not have common sense. Kind of rude, but maybe my statement was misunderstood? Though the vehicle may have a hurt market value, the owner may love his car and it may have more value to him than an original example. It irks me when people are opinionated and criticize others' ideas like they are the police.

Drama starts when someone has a strong opinion and feel they have to condescend on others that don't feel the same way. So, the other person defends their opinion and then the first person tries to discredit them. And on it goes... I think there would be less tension on this forum if there wasn't so much criticism, and if given, at least consider the poster's viewpoint and just let it be.

I really dislike people telling me what to do. People have tried to do this my whole life and I've found that listening to my own instincts has gotten me a lot further, and many times others have been wrong, despite their thinking they knew what was best for me. I'll drive what I want to drive. If it means cutting up a Gullwing, so be it. It's no one else's business what I do with my money.

I concur ;)

navigator

BUT:

lets get back to the conversion issue!

I am almost 100% sure that my 350 will get better mileage from a 500 - can anyone confirm or deny?