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Garage => Test Drive => Topic started by: hokman on 13 July 2005, 02:13 PM

Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 13 July 2005, 02:13 PM
This car has average bodywork, no rust, but has some scratches and bubbles.  It has been resprayed.  Not bad condition for such an old car.  It also has the proper headlamps and bumpers, not the quad round lamps or huge bumpers.

The battery has no juice and needs to be jump-started.  It burns some oil.  The V8 is quite loud.  The throttle keeps fluctuating up and down.
The gearbox is only a 4 speed, and it's quite lose.

The interior is quite dirty with the audio system removed.

So what's the highest price I should pay this guy for the car.  I live in canada.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 13 July 2005, 02:30 PM
What do you want the car for? Restoration, something to tinker or just nice transport? One of the other guys here should be able to help with the technical problems.

Have you looked on eBay for an idea of what these are selling for? There are always a few W116 on eBay for sale of varying standards.

One thing I can say for certain is that the 450 SEL was never available with a 4 speed manual transmission. This may have been swapped from a 350 SEL or you may in fact be looking at a 350 SEL that was rebadged as a 450.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 13 July 2005, 03:43 PM
thanks for your reply.

That seller is lying, I researched this website and found out that manual isn't available on the 450.
The car has no badge on the back, the seller is clearly trying to sell the 350 as a 450.  The engine is a Vee-8 so it must be the 350.  Maybe it isn't long wheelbase too.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 13 July 2005, 05:13 PM
I would certainly be concerned when someone is unable or unwilling to properly identify the car they are selling. What else are they getting wrong?

Quote from: "hokman"
Maybe it isn't long wheelbase too.

In another topic, I wondered about any noticable difference in performance and handling between the short and long wheelbase cars. I have a short wheel base car and do not see the benefit of giving an additional 10cm leg room to the rear seat. I am never in the rear seat of my car although I can think of one reason for the extra length in the rear seat :wink: but certainly not worth paying the extra cost when the cars were new. If it was up to me, I would prefer the short wheel base just so that the extra space in the rear is not wasted by not being used. I also figure that the additional weight of the 10cm of car would reduce performance, even if just ever so slightly :twisted:
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 13 July 2005, 11:59 PM
On ebay, a 450sel that has rust everywhere and faded paint and damages sells for $500 USA.  The air cleaner box is all rusty.  It's much worse condition than the one I was looking at.

maybe that 350se isn't such a bad deal after all.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 14 July 2005, 12:13 AM
I don't know how rare manuals are where you are but any Mercedes with a manual is rare here in Australia. A manual W116 is very rare and may be worth it just for that :!:

Buying this car when it needs work may also give you reason to fix it up the way you want :wink: Bad exhaust? On goes a bigger exhaust. :twisted: Bonnet (hood) in bad condition? In goes a scoop for a cold air intake :twisted: Add a modern stereo and you could end up with a car that is lots of fun to drive and own.

If I was looking for a car, the only thing I would be really concerned about would be rust and especially rust I couldn't see. Make sure to lift the carpets and the foam underlay when looking for rust. Most people have the car looked at by a mechanic but I would also have the car looked at by a body expert that knows these cars.

Personally, I would not buy a car in this condition to restore unless you could do most of the work yourself. It would be much cheaper to find a good example where someone else has spent the time and money.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 14 July 2005, 04:42 PM
For the W116, is the manual or auto a better choice?
Which choice would have more problems?

What's the difference in power and economy between a 350 and 450 116?

How much would the rebuild of the 350 V8 cost?  The car I saw has 300,000+ kms!  What's the maximum distance can  these engines run?  If this engine is in too bad condition to be saved, how much would a similar merc V8 cost for a swap?

If I'm in the market for a S-class merc and I only have $1000.  Is the W116 the best choice?  I see older W108 series but they're likely to be in worse condition.  W126 doesn't go for that cheap and I like W116's style better.  But how do the 3 cars compare?

Thank you 450se, for you help!
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 14 July 2005, 05:27 PM
Being in Canada, I am guessing you are able to find a diesel 116 too. I have never had the pleasure of even seeing one of these as they were only ever available in the USA but it could be another option. All 116 should be able to handle 500,000km given appropriate servicing and maintenance.

As for manual vs auto transmission, I would also be guessing that since there are more autos around that more good condition used parts would be available for the autos than the manuals.

In choosing a model, have you considered the W123? I would regard its looks as the baby S-Class. As for driving I have heard different people claim that the 126 is both better and worse than the 116. I think it would be hard to argue that it is not better in most ways but for me the 116 style can not be beat. I am not familar with the 108 enough to comment.

If you are willing to do some of the maintenenace work yourself with the help of others on this forum, a W116 should be ideal for you.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 15 July 2005, 02:17 PM
Hello Styria.  It seems that most members here are lucky enough to own a 6.9.  I understand that the 6.9 would be the ideal engine to haul around the heavy 116.

But it's not that easy to find a 6.9 to buy right?  Maybe I should wait until I see one.  However, wouldn't that enormous V8 make the car really front heavy and deteriote the handling?

The automatic is certainly a better choice over the manual.

I don't really like the 126 because my aunt has one and I'm not a fan of those plastic bumpers.  Her's was a 560SEL and now it doesn't run anymore.  But no doubt that my aunt is one uncareful owner who crashes over bumps and doesn't do regular maintainance.  I hope the w116 would fare better than a 126.

Benz was famous for excellent reliability,quality and engineering.  But the company started to cut cost with the w210 4 eyed e-class right?  I also feel that the W140 s-class has no style at all, it's just a huge saloon with no beauty.  Maybe the company's turn for the worse had started earlier.

So is the W116 considered the golden era of the company?
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 17 July 2005, 05:40 PM
Quote from: "hokman"
It seems that most members here are lucky enough to own a 6.9.  I understand that the 6.9 would be the ideal engine to haul around the heavy 116.

That may seem the case but I assure you there are far more of the smaller engines ;)

Quote
But it's not that easy to find a 6.9 to buy right?  Maybe I should wait until I see one.  However, wouldn't that enormous V8 make the car really front heavy and deteriote the handling?

It may be worth the wait for the 6.9 but many people avoid them due to the greater complexity of the hydropneumatic suspension. However, this is also the reason the 6.9 has such great handling even compared to the lighter smaller-engined W116.

Quote
The automatic is certainly a better choice over the manual.

Most MB cars were built for cruising and for this the automatic is perfect. Also, I believe the higher gears are the same in the auto and the manual transmissions. The only major difference is starting from stand-still where the manual will win but is it worth the effort? ;)

Quote
I don't really like the 126 because my aunt has one and I'm not a fan of those plastic bumpers.  Her's was a 560SEL and now it doesn't run anymore.  But no doubt that my aunt is one uncareful owner who crashes over bumps and doesn't do regular maintainance.  I hope the w116 would fare better than a 126.

I don't like the plastic bumpers either! That is one of the reasons why I think the W116 were the last of the great.
Being 10 years older, it is hard to say if the 116 would fare better than a 126. They certainly will never look as good!

Quote
Benz was famous for excellent reliability, quality and engineering.  But the company started to cut cost with the w210 4 eyed e-class right?  I also feel that the W140 s-class has no style at all, it's just a huge saloon with no beauty.  Maybe the company's turn for the worse had started earlier.

Some would say that the last true MB was the 124 series. The 140 series was also the last MB where cost was not an issue. However, at least to me, these cars lack the personality and style of the 116.

Quote
So is the W116 considered the golden era of the company?

Without a doubt, YES! :!:  :!:  :!:  BUt then again, I am biased :)
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 18 July 2005, 03:37 AM
After reading an article from this site's library, I now know the problem of the 350se i'm looking at.  The fluctuating throttle  is due to the ecu problem, not the injector like my friend said because they rarely fail.  Am I right?

How much would a used ECU be?

The 350se I saw must had a hard life because there's smoke at the exhaust.  The previous owner must have failed to change oil and filters regularly, preventing oil getting to the valves and pistons and causing wear.
And this car has around 200000 miles and now the ecu is failing.  The gearbox's condition is also in suspect.

I really want a 116 and this looks like a bargain, do you think I should go for it despite the wrecked engine?  Should the engine's problems should be cured or should I swap for another engine?  Many problems of the 116 are body related but this doesn't seem to be a problem of the car I'm looking at.

Can the car be driven home or should I deliver home on a lorry?  It's about 20 km's from my house.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 19 July 2005, 05:25 PM
6.9  or 6.3 are nice but also comes with a high price tag of gas guzzler, expensive parts, tricky suspension, hard on rear diff too.

Many yrs ago I was looking for a 6.3 but the thick repair records made me think otherwise.

The L was discussed, I guess they're not for self drive, more for shows, the big bossa sat in the back.
Same as the Maybach 62 too.
performance wise probably rob her power and different handling than lighter cars.

Hokman
  go look at the engine marking, serial # see if any be cross ref.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 19 July 2005, 06:27 PM
sd300, what do you mean by L?

And what do you mean by cross-ref?

Sorry, for not understanding you :)
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 19 July 2005, 10:30 PM
the L= 450SEL versus 450SE


cross reference.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 20 July 2005, 12:16 AM
thanks for the clarification.

The current S class has changed the name from e.g. 350se to S 350, so how do you know if it's long wheelbase or not?
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 20 July 2005, 05:11 PM
I have a feeling that the S350 V6 instead of V8 too.

Why doesn't S350 use V8 and why does benz change from straight 6 to V6?
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 20 July 2005, 06:21 PM
I believe MB went to V6 from I6 due to cost. They probably found it cheaper to focus on their V8 engines and remove two cylinders than continue to develop a seperate line of engines (I know it is not as simple as removing 2 cylinders).

For anyone interested in engines, there is a fascinating article in the library analysing the design of the 3.5L V8 used in the 350 SE/SEL and other MBs. I would assume that the 4.5L is effectively the same engine but with a longer stroke.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 20 July 2005, 09:44 PM
My Apologies the weak diff were found in 6.3 and not 6.9  It was floating in my head. I read it from
" Illustrated MB buyer's guide" by Lee Gohlike.
Very informative.

With the price of gas/petrol now I won't be contemplating any 6.3 or 6.9  I already have a big 73 Cadillac Eldorado. She has ready for this 8.2 litre.  Richard Nixon gave one fo these to Leonid Brehznev circa 70's.

Is front wheel drive too. My bro drove it here 400 miles, and it got 20 MPG on Hwy. So is not such a pig.
My 300SD get about 30+MPG too.
We pay 85c for DSL and 92c for Gas.

Hokman
  Back to your almost acquisition, u may walk away from the 350.
I don't think I heard of a 350 4spd. But perhaps I can be called a card carrying MB aficionado yet.
Custom built cars are best to avoid, you will have a great time to find parts. Since not too many folks will know what exactly is the engine /trans etc.

have I read somewhere, u reside in Canada?
I am in Northern BC.

I have also drove the 600 pulmann a bit many yrs ago. My rich Uncle had one, i drove it more.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 21 July 2005, 09:58 PM
I live in lower mainland.

I still don't know if I should choose a broken 350se over a toyota celica xx 2.8/ supra.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 21 July 2005, 10:44 PM
I would never have bought my car except for the circumstances it became available (originally owned by my grand father) but having it now means I just don't enjoy driving any other car. These cars were designed for cruising and nothing is more enjoyable than hitting the highway and leaving all the worries of the modern world behind. They have a discreet class and charm that most other cars lack apart from others MBs.

You will never regret having a 116 but it is also very different than any Toyota which should be very clear just from looking at the cars. The way they drive and handle are completely different and the way the 116 will hold and comfort you will make you smile. The 116 will probably not beat the Supra around the race track but it will get you there in style. Also nothing beats the 3-pointed star at the end of the bonnet, leading you as you drive.

In the end, it is pretty clear; get the 350SE :D
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 22 July 2005, 12:26 AM
450se, you're absolutely right.  The soul reason I'm buying this car is to show off to my friends who's been always better off than I do.  And I'm in shame to admit so late that I'm only 18 and am getting my first car.  Imagine how smug I'll look arriving at my friend's house in this car.  You know in movies, to show someone important has arrived they always place the camera near the ground and then a benz or some other prestigious car rushes to the camera and stops quickly just in front and not crash in to the camera.  And then some guy from the front seat comes out and opens the door for the boss behind by pulling open the door handle.  And then the boss steps out very slowly and shot at a very cool angle and then a courageous melody comes on.  That car on the camera would only look right if it's a 116 or some roller because of its stance and presence.  You must know what I'm talking about.  See, you can already tell how immature I am.  Sorry about that.

In the supra, I'm just looking for a sporty driving experience and ease of maintainence.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 22 July 2005, 09:01 PM
hokman
  U may want to hold back a bit instead of jumping into this 350se, there should be more different MB on lower mainland.

I don't know what budget are you on? But if u can afford a Supra at the same time, then u should look for a newer MB. Very often we need to keep changing cars and wait for a good one came around.

You also look for what's the value of the car later on when you sink all these money in.

Regardless of what car you buy, a compression test is very important. Is only $18 at Walmart.
Trying to save that and another hour of your time may bring endless grief to u.

Is your Aunt selling her 560 too? If good price I may be interest too.

I saw one similar model sat at a small repair shop on Lougheed hwy coquitlam, looks like she had her head off! See doing major work on these cars are very expensive.

Fof a 450 or 350 don't think u get much better than 15 MPG for city driving.

You can also ask ICBC for any collision on the car, and check liens, Police if the car is hot too.

There are a few members in www.mbcanada.ocm resides in Vancouver too.

www.hopefungautoparts.com in richmond , Jeff is a very nice fellow too. I got my oil filter and shocks from him, very reas price.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 22 July 2005, 09:05 PM
Walmart sell compression gauge, but not perform the test for you for $18.00

Garages charges more for that.

MBs are nice cars, but there're lots of them let them run down to irrepairable state.
And end up like a bottomless pit.
Even my car i have to justify my repairs, I could drop 3-4000 tomorrow in it just like nothing.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 22 July 2005, 10:04 PM
But I see lots of people take a dying car and than restore it to perfection.  Do these people get the car for free?

I can't find any other s-class for under $1000, not even lower models!
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 23 July 2005, 08:56 PM
Thats is very true, lots of folks take dead cars and restored them to pristine showroom shape.
To these folks money is totally no object.
They will pay $1000 for a shell and put in another 10-20 grand for a start. Some by the time they finish he would have dropped 50Gs in the car. Lucky if they can get 50 cents on a dollar though.
Some cars do appreciate many times over, and some will never achieve any cult status.

So if u start to do that, research the style, make , that was produced very few to begin with.
Sports model will usually hit exponential numbers, look at Hemi cudas, Shelby Mustangs, orig AC Cobras.

Many yrs ago when Enzo passed away, every Italian cars started to appreciate!

Thats my cheap logic.

Anyways i changed the oil on my SD last night and turn up the key in the transmission modulator.  trans is gripping so much better. it did slips a bit before the tune up when put pedal to metal, it doesn't now.
Totally much nicer car.
There are a few things i need to do, then the car will be almost 100% to drive.
Plus a good paint job, not sure how long and far will i keep pouring $$ in it.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 23 July 2005, 10:20 PM
your S-class has the 5 cylinder turbo diesel?  That's pretty rare.  And should be more reliable than the petrol models.  I'm happy your transmission shifts smoothly now.

I found another 116, it's a black 280se and has no number plate.  It's in front of a garage, wonder if it's for sale.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 23 July 2005, 11:59 PM
The 116 diesel only came out 78-80 so not as many as gassers.
The whole 116 numbers are dwindling by now, newest are 25 yrs old. I guess it should appreciate slowly.

Being 280se , you could give them a try, worse is say no, but sometimes if u show genuine sincerity they may sell it to u for good price. Esp haves they like their things go appreciated.

Just your other 350 4spd, looks pretty hoky, worse is home conversion job, u need psychic's help inorder to get parts.

Dsl are a little cheaper to run, close to 30 MPG. With gas don't expect to get over 15-16.

There is a 280e  123 body on www.usedvancouver.com for $700. And that maybe a good deal. Same eng as 280se, I think they have twin cams.

Is your first car, u don't want a real money pit!
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: Mforcer on 24 July 2005, 06:17 PM
Quote from: "hokman"
450se, you're absolutely right.  The soul reason I'm buying this car is to show off to my friends who's been always better off than I do.  And I'm in shame to admit so late that I'm only 18 and am getting my first car.  Imagine how smug I'll look arriving at my friend's house in this car.  You know in movies, to show someone important has arrived they always place the camera near the ground and then a benz or some other prestigious car rushes to the camera and stops quickly just in front and not crash in to the camera.  And then some guy from the front seat comes out and opens the door for the boss behind by pulling open the door handle.  And then the boss steps out very slowly and shot at a very cool angle and then a courageous melody comes on.  That car on the camera would only look right if it's a 116 or some roller because of its stance and presence.  You must know what I'm talking about.

I know exactly what you are talking about and this is one of the things that puts a smile on my face as I drive my car! It is about the style  8)  8)  8)
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 25 July 2005, 01:46 AM
thanks for looking for me, that w123 looks good.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 25 July 2005, 12:28 PM
Hokman
  there's a few more 450 se FS on buy n sell, www.buysell.com
Not sure what state are they in.

Do u have some budget to work on?
SOme cars u need to really know ahead, just like another guy wanted a G wagen. he told me everything is expensive , esp on the power train, so as the 4 matic, the transfer case is 3-4000 and no substitues.

Plan ahead now as what u want to do, not because something looks flashy, but comes with a real stiff price!
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 31 July 2005, 11:10 PM
Have I scared Hokman away by now!
 I hope not, just want to get more bang for the buck. Buying a wrong car will scar him forever. Worse is a real money pit, even had been driving for many yrs, I got taken a few times, the car was a real bad lemon!


BMWs are too tight to work on, very little space, is Ok as long as u have double jointed midget hands.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: hokman on 02 August 2005, 01:25 AM
I know it's very hard to find a good condition 116, so I've checked other newer cars.  I found a '90 w124 300D for $2800 and a '94 infiniti j30 for 3000.  But both are gone now thanks to my lazy parents who don't go to see the car with me. :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :(

Maybe i'll settle with that damn 350se after all.  No one dared to buy it because it's on buysell for so long.
Title: 450sel 4spd manual worth $800?
Post by: sd300 on 02 August 2005, 07:55 PM
The 90 300e sounds like a good price. $2400

No wonder it went so quick. SOmetimes u may ask them to drive to your place.

Hate to tell u, the  350se could easily sink another 2,000 in it. So buyer's beware. If it were parent's money they maybe pissed off when u keep dropping more $$ in. U better off to buy a better, newer one, once and for all!

An old car will attract unsolicited advice, thats totally annoying.
If u don't do any work yourself, then is $100/ hour.