The Forum

Hello Everyone,

I am in need of some advice. I hope that if anyone can spare a few moments, then their experience might save me!

Years  ago I owned a few ?D? Series Citroen's,  and some twenty five years later I find myself with another one. When I saw it last year I couldn?t remember if I?d promised that I?d never own another,  or that one day I would. Seductive and quirky as it is, and notwithstanding that for once I had a bit of luck and tumbled upon an near minter, I can?t help feeling that you can?t go back. I?d always wanted a perfect ?D?, and now I?ve got one  - it is the intervening that gives me the problem. Not only the passage of time, but I?ve since owned 109?s, a 111, 126?s and 140?s and others. I?m not saying the ?D? is a bad car, I still have feelings for it! It?s just in a different place than a Mercedes and  both have their merits, just one more than the other!

I have  subscribed to a ?D? owners  forum which mails daily discussion updates, the information is first rate, and the bond immense. However, the problems  seem to be endless. I know that the territory brings difficulties, it just seems they seem a little disproportionate to the pleasure. Perhaps people aren?t inclined to post good news, or enjoy a challenge, or maybe I?m in the wrong forum! All that aside, the fact can?t be altered that last week as my dog charged past me in the garage I leant against the Citroen and the panel I had leaned on popped in, it was the lightest of pressure. This seems to be a  really thin car! It is a best; flimsy. I heard it was the first in Europe to be built from recycled steel. Anyway, enough is enough. Sadly, it has to go.

Here is my dilemma:
4.5 Versus 6.9

At the moment the difference in price in Europe  between the two is three to four thousand pounds for an average to good example, however a perfect 6.9 will fetch double the money of  little brother.

Given that the sale of the Citroen might allow me to choose either model, and that torque and wow has the same plus as the negative of the hassle which will/may come with such a complex machine, which should I choose? Could anyone who has  had both models  perhaps advise me if they have time?
I would imagine most people  may  think as I?m doing at the moment, head 4.5, heart6 .9!!
If there exists a link to a buying advice post, or if there is a big ?don?t touch with a barge-pole if you find this?  standard, I?d be grateful to know

Many, many thanks, and Best Wishes from Belgium

Paul

Hi Paul,

Have you read through the W116.org Library at http://www.w116.org/library.php (http://www.w116.org/library.php). There are some very interesting articles which may inspire you either way.

As a 450SE owners, all I can say is that when these cars were new a 6.9 was much, much more expensive than a regular 450SEL. I  don't think a 6.9 owner will deny a 6.9 is more complicated than the other W116 but then the performance and handling are in a league of their own. As a Citroen owner, you may like the 6.9 solely for its suspension.

For me, the performance and handling of the 450SE are perfect and I never ask for more. There are times I wish I had a 6.9 just so I can enjoy what everyone raves so much about but then getting behind the wheel of my car and remember that I have never found it lacking.

As an investment, I agree that the 6.9 is probably a better buy for its rarity but then there is the higher cost to start with. In the end, I think finding a good example of either model is more important than picking between the two and so it comes down to what you can afford.

Let us know what you decide.

Michael.

Hi Paul

Ok, the old DS Citroen is no longer your love so do sell it but remember that that WAS the most innovative car in the world when introoduced in 1955 : disk brakes, semi-automatic transmission, hydro-pneumatic suspension, etc...

My opinion on the W116s mentioned ?

Simple : if you can rely on people knowing hydro-pneumatic suspension (like here in France), go for the 6.9 !

BUT, if you want to drive to the east and hit an autobahn or frequently drive well above the speed limits, the 6.9 will bring you down to a very harsh reality, at autobahn speeds, it will empty your wallet very quickly - less so with a 4.5.

I know that styria says it doesn't make a big difference but at 200 kph, it WILL.

Good luck and remember to take your time, those cars are being sold cheaply these days. Here in France, a mint 450SEL can be had for 6 000? and a 6.9 for about 9 000?.

There IS a solution to the fuel consumption : build a still and make ethanol !

Bonne chance


Denis

Paris, France

Oh Paul, I forgot one suggestion :

Buy a car from southern Europe ! Search from Spain, along the french coast and on to Italy.

Denis

Paris, france

Hi Everyone,

Firstly, thanks for all the advice and interest. I feel much more relaxed about the entire process now!

Initially I felt fairly sure that the decision was going to be a reasonably easy one, but now I?m not as convinced.

Perhaps after driving both models it may quite simply be no contest, but until then - the next few weeks - I would like to at least be able to make the ?head?  decision, leaving  the ?heart? to the test drive.

Styria, would you say that a 6.9 with its' suspension in only reasonable order, rather than in  immaculately maintained  condition, would handle worse than a 4.5?

Are the  under/over steer problems described on the 6.9 common to the 4.5?

What is suspension failure usually attributable to; is it age, use, lack of use, lack of care, design? Or would that be way too easy!

I?ve found a  ?76 model 6.9 with 110,000 kms (thanks to Denis in Paris for his sunnier climes advice),  should the suspension be good for another 100,000 for example?

Would it be correct to assume that a 4.5 in good order would at least keep it?s current value, and that a 6.9 would do the same and more over the next few years?

Finally, if the difference in price wasn't an issue - I'm not saying it isn't! - and the suspension was in good order, and the yearly mileage was low, given an identical 4.5 side by side with with the large relative, should the big lad win every time?

After having written that, I thought I'd nearly answered my own question, then Michael's comments rang back - 'never found the vehicle lacking', and 'couldn't ask for more'!

I suppose I'll know when it when I see it!!

I'll post some images when I find the one!!

Once again, thank you all, and best wishes from The Ardennes.



Paul

I just thought I would drop in again to clarify some things. When I say that I don't find the car lacking and that I couldn't ask for more, never do I expect the performance or handling to be on par with a new, top-of-the-line S-Class. These are big, old cars, plain and simple.

However, these cars are never pushed to their limits on modern roads with current road rules and speed limits. If I wanted super-car performance and handling a 30-year old S-Class is not where I would be looking. For driving comfortably both in the city and the highway then these cars are great.

Every time I hop behind the wheel I get a grin from ear to ear from the enjoyment I get from the cars. I smile and wave to every other W116 driver I see while driving and usually get a smile and wave back. I have people comment on my car all the time and I love the positive attention the car brings.

Read the articles in the library if you haven't done so already. I think these cars hold up well today but it is amazing what was said about them in the 1970s when compared to their peers at the time. How many people can say they drive a car that was the best in the world in its day?  ;D

Hey Isobars,

I wish I had the same dilemma.  If I did I would go for the 6.9, no question.

Simply put the 6.9 is the top of the range, unique engine and all the bells and whistles when it came to options.  It's the most collectible.  But being a collectible doesn't mean it belongs in a glass case either.  After all, w116's are still serviceable and can and should be appreciated.  I view my 350 as a stepping stone and a good project  .Although sparse in features compared to the 6.9 let alone other sel's, I get the same buzz that "450se" describes every time I drive it.  A top condition 6.9 I think you'd be looking for any excuse to drive it.

Like "styria" mentioned, pay as much as you can for the best car.  Good luck.

Thanks for another great post Styria!

Hi,
I would agree on most of the discussion between 4.5 and 6.9. But when looking for such a car it is all about finding a good individual. The most important criteria would be:
1. Condition of the chassis: rust and paint condition
2. Condition of the interior
3. Condition and service history of the mechanics

The situation is different if you are looking for a restoration project to fill up your free time (as was the case with me) and your wife agrees with that (which was not allways the case with me, but thats history).

Issues are also on the interior material and on the car paint color. I would recommend making your own preferences on that and not on what is most popular today (like astralsilver or black). Maybe it would be better to think what was most popular at the era of the car.

If consumption is not an issue, and you have enough money to spend, and you find a good individual, go for the 6.9.
But if you find a perfect 4.5 individual with your preferences, go for it.

regards

I agree completely with everything Tomi wrote. The condition of the car is far more important than which model of W116 to choose. A rust bucket will not bring much driving enjoyment regardless of the size of the engine.

Thanks One and All,

I'm off to see my first one tomorrow morning. Less than 90k Kms, two owners - last one for 20 years, now no longer with us - prior to that chauffeur driven for some captain of industry. Described as having a little rust round the arches, with some history and an unmarked blue leather interior, blue paint and alloys.

This won't be the first wild goose if it is, let's hope it's not!

I take with me all your comments.

Best from Belgium,

Paul

"a little rust round the arches..." ;D

That is exactly why is suggested that you look for a southern car. W116s RUST and a "little rust" usually hides "more rust". If you really want the one you are looking at, make sure that you really inspect it for RUST...

Personally, were I looking for a prime W116, I would not buy one north of, say, Milano, Turin or Bordeaux. Even "garaged" cars can rust from collected water in the infamous areas around the front anti-rollbar mountings and under the fuse box. I would only look at cars whose owners claim to have NO rust and that have not been recently repainted. I would go for a pampered original paint car or one that has been very well repainted. I have seen pictures of superb cars from Spain, France and Italy located some distance from the coast (salty air corrodes cars).

Good luck in your quest

Denis

Paris, France

Hi Denis and All,

Yes, you were correct! Actually the one I saw today is close to Paris. Have you seen this one? My description will tell you.

It was my first drive in a 6.9, and I can now understand the allure.

I only spent an hour with the car, all the time he had, although I can go back anytime with my expert. I have many images, as you'd expect.

The original advice of 85K Kms was actually a little out, the  total was 105 via two clocks. No invoice to support the change, but pre and post services records suggest it is as stated.

The two largest bits of supported expenditure are for a complete fuel system at 90 K KMs including the tank, injection pump, fuel pump, compression testing, regulating, etc at FF 28,408 - GBP 2800, say, and a new power steering pump, service and regulation of suspension and two rear cushions? at FF24,622.

The car passed it vehicle inspection yesterday, the only note referring to a seepage from the Hydraulic reservoir.

The chrome is near perfect, very, very bright,  one slight bubble starting, and the paint is very good, EUR 250 would see the odd nicks vanish. The wheel arches themselves are fine and original, so too is the boot-lid and so are the door bottoms and bonnet.

The sills are solid.

The engine bay was very good, no corrosion under the battery tray, or anywhere else for that matter. I couldn't put it on a ramp, but my scrumbling underneath didn't reveal anything obvious.

The boot-well on the left is corroded down the seal and a gap, one centimetre at it's widest, extends three quarters of the way down. The right side is fine. So too is the rest of the space.

Both front seats are unfrayed, consistent with the mileage. The back seat has been cut in three places, only to the tune of three cm's the longest and it looks an easy invisible repair. The headlining has similar slash.

The fascia has a crack close to the instruments, and the veneer has whitened quite badly on the right side, also around all it's edges on the console. It doesn't help.

The carpets are fine, no holes or wear marks.

The car smells. Water penetration has had the front passenger footwell swimming at sometime, the foam underlay had been removed. Cigarette smoke as well, but not overly present. Rear and driver footwells look to have always been dry.

Apart from these bits and pieces it is an attractive car. See image if it uploads!

The drive - what there was of it - didn't bounce me around, there were no signs of smoke, the transmission was smooth. The steering wheel wobbled, more at low speed, about a 5cm arc. Braking was in a straight line, and very, very good, I might add.

I wouldn't say the octet was always singing in tune to start, but there has been hardly any recent use. Also, it did consistently tick-over  at 1200, even when warm.

Is the boot-well rust enough to indicate that there is another nine-tenths under the water? No pun intended!

How would you value a car like this?

Salutations,

Paul

Hi Styria,
The interior is leather.
I think that the car may have had a dose of unwelcome diesel - not many petrol cars in France, Lord love the wife if she did it!. Would that cause the whole system clearout? I asked the son-in-law, he said the f-i-l did what the garage said, which I thought was a bit evasive.
I've sent you a few snaps because I can't understand the upload thingy.

Thanks for you help.

Salut,

Paul

Paul, Styria, thanks for hailing !

I gave your description some thought. The replaced fuel system, the leaks and the smell make me believe that the car had been parked for quite a while. I agree with styria that its sounds mechanically OK but did you actually see the "contr?le technique" or CT (technical control) for yourself ?

A 1200 rpm idle, corrosion in the boot-well on the left and wobbly steering would attract the inspector's attention so it cannot be true that the only mention is the hydraulic leak (unless there is something strange going on here). French law requires a CT of less than six months in order to sell a car - ask to see it but remember this : it does not guarantee good mechanical condition, only meeting safety requirements. The good part is that the CT lists interesting details such as the quality of alignment of the front and rear suspension to the body : this really tells you if the car has been in an accident and poorly repaired.

So while in some cases, classic cars are sold without a CT (per agreement between buyer and seller and affecting the asking price), if this is not the case, ask for it. Now if this guy wants 2500 ? for a 6.9, a real CT is probably not available.

I would go back and look at the sources of corrosion once more and ask for more test driving : that wobble worries me. Also remember that sometimes, a W116 "leaky winshield" is far more than just that : the panel underneath  can be quite corroded. Also remember that if the repairs list "francs" such as FF 28,408, then they were done before January 1st 2002 (introduction of the Euro in France).

If all this sounds like the owner is a bit nutty (having spent big money on the car and then neglected it afterwards), please understand that that is entirely possible in France  ;D

On the other hand, Paris is not south enough for a really good body, unless the owner is in Reims. Is that the case ? if so I may know him  :o

Just for fun, look at this car : http://cgi.ebay.it/mercedes-450-SEL_W0QQitemZ4604626263QQcategoryZ9855QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Italian, PERFECT 450SEL with 71 000km - may be a pampered car owned by a rich family. Expensive at 7500 ? for a 4.5, maybe but then what if it IS in perfect condition ?

Bonne chance in the hunt !

Denis

Paris, France (cold and not very sunny)

Hi Denis and All,

Thanks for the advice.

Thanks for the link, I appreciate it.

The owners son in law 'flashed' me the CT sheet - he was very edgy, although that may have been his general demeanour, who knows.
On the Carte Gris the only four stamps for CT visits are: (visit before) 180996, and the next 301198, then two stickers Centre Auto Securite dated 281100 and this weeks, 070106.
Vehicle owned since 150186, second owner.

Does this mean the vehicle has been laid up between the expiration of the CT 2000 and the new one this week? The car is in Remiily Sur/S.

The fuel problem came nine months and 800 kms later than a prior service Jan 1997, which changed the power steering pump, flushed the suspension etc, the last service referred to on that invoice - no documents - was Jan 1996. The vehicle isn't a stranger to Chez Mercedes.
The PAS pump change invoice also includes Redressage Bas Caisse Gauche! Which I translate as making good left sill. The guy did say his mother in law had banged the front twice, but lightly. Would this type of impact take out a steering pump?

He wants EUR 7500.

Ebay Germany has been getting a lot of bids on6.9's, one with a reserve of oner 24,000, on a French import was at 13,500, a recent sale with around 200,000 kms came in at 7,000+ for restoration!

Would anyone Down Under think it is possible to find a European model there for re-export, or is that just silly!!

Coming back from Germany this afternoon I saw a 123 300D, on a Dutch plate, RHD, with a GBM country code sticker. Very odd.

Best wishes from The Ardennes  (Fog and Frost)

Paul

Quote from: isobars on 14 January 2006, 01:56 PM... Would anyone Down Under think it is possible to find a European model there for re-export, or is that just silly!!

But Paul: We drive from the other side of the car. Unlikely to find a left-hander here.   :)

Hi,

A Right Hand Drive car is OK in Belgium, or Germany for that matter.

It would save a lot though, 10% + 17.5%, if it had been exported by a Pom second hand and therefore the purchase tax had already been paid in the EU.

Unlikely, I know, but I thought I'd put the question.

Thanks for your warm welcome comments on the music forum question.

Cheers from The Ardennes. I confess with a cold German Beer in hand!

Paul

Hi isobars (Paul)

You wrote :
"Does this mean the vehicle has been laid up between the expiration of the CT 2000 and the new one this week?"

The answer is YES. Not good IMHO.

Also :
"The fuel problem came nine months and 800 kms later than a prior service Jan 1997."

My theory is :  they owned the car from 86, they parked it at some point, obviously not knowing how to store a car properly.  They cleaned the car out and then it got a CT so as to get on the road in 1996 (the CT is required since 1992 and must be done every two years). The FI eventually died of mistreatment (K-jet usually never rusts if properly maintained/stored).

Then the car was taken off the road for nearly six years.

You also wrote:
"Redressage Bas Caisse Gauche! Which I translate as making good left sill. The guy did say his mother in law had banged the front twice, but lightly. Would this type of impact take out a steering pump?"

Redressage Bas Caisse Gauche means straightening out the left side rocker panel . I bet you that mother in law was used to a Twingo but got in the 6.9, stepped on the go pedal, got scared and drove plain off a small road in a right turn, hit the ditch at low speed and damaged the lower left side of the car, possibly damaging the power steering.

So there we have it, a person "nervous" about showing you the CT and wanting EUR 7500. I've seen a mint go for 8800? last year in Paris.

This does NOT sound good to me, I would walk away as the owners do not sound very honest and/or know how to take care/use a 6.9.

Look for a goodie Paul

Denis

Paris, France

I agree that it sounds risky if they make you feel that they are hiding something. The risk is too high in buying a bad car that will cost you many thousands to bring it up to the standard you had hoped. Unless you can inspect every inch of the car I would assume the worst. Don't be afraid of some rust - these are 30 year old cars after all - but just make sure you have identified all the rust and be prepared for the cost of attending to it at some time in the future.

There are excellent examples out there for sale and there are good examples that need a bit of work if you are willing but just make sure you know exactly what you are buying.

Good luck.

Michael

THANK YOU!! to everyone who has taken the time to help me with this dilemma.
Your advice has been first-class, and I couldn't have asked for more genuine and friendly interest.
This learning curve has been a treat so far, and I won't be taking the edge off it by buying the car in France!
I'm going to look for a straighter car with less mystery, and more history.
If I can ever help with anything from Germany or UK/Belgium etc, please don't hesitate to contact me via email.

Salutations from The Ardennes. (Minus 6 on the way home tonight)

Paul

Quote from: isobars on 14 January 2006, 06:36 PM
A Right Hand Drive car is OK in Belgium, or Germany for that matter.

Paul, does that mean that RHD cars can be registered for ordinary daily use there?

Here in Oz, LHD cars are only allowed as visitors, or as "historic" cars on "club" registration - which is rather limiting.

Mind you, there are so many idiots who can't drive from the right side that I'd hate to see what they'd do with the controls on the "wrong" side!   :D

Whilst I found it quite easy to adapt to LHD when in the States and Canada, driving a LHD car in Oz was a most unnerving experience. I once owned a LHD Studebaker; driving that in Sydney almost caused me a nervous collapse. I sold it while I still had some sanity (though some would argue the sanity was suspect in the first place for having bought the beast!).   :D

Hi OzBenzHead,

Yes, RHD is OK as a normal user here in Belgium, and I've seen  many right hookers on normal plates in Holland, especially old Jag's - in fact yesterday afternoon I passed a RHD W123 300D on a Dutch plate with an old country ID sticker GBM (Isle of Man), now how did that happen!
I sold my W109 to a German, and he registered it without any difficulty.
The only real problem with driving is over-taking, you have to wait for a curve, hang a long way back, or lean across the passenger seat - the least recommended option. Although I suppose you could always ask  the wife if it's clear,  relying on her excellent judgment of speed and distance. Occasionally the 'b' post gets in the way at a roundabout.

I found City driving is bad for the nerves, as you said!

I'm going to have to let go of my W111 to up my ambitions for a 6.9, would you know where I can find  the VIN  stamp on the chassis of the 111? The authorities weren't too bothered when I imported to England and went on the plate and firewall, but I remember from somewhere that there may be one somewhere else, and if that is the case the Belgians will want to see it when I import to here. (I'm hoping it'll be an easier sell on the mainland).


Cheers,

Paul

Quote from: isobars on 15 January 2006, 09:39 PM
... would you know where I can find  the VIN  stamp on the chassis of the 111? ...

I can have a look at mine - but I shan't be visiting him for about another week. He - and the W112 - live at my sister's place about 40 km away. (Sis has nice big shed with lots of spare room; I don't.)

Since I've just gotten a 6.9 and just disposed of my 450 (gave a deal to a fellow car collector and friend to get him into his first German car), I thought I'd offer my opinions on this 450/6.9 debate.

In comparing the two cars I've owned, it is a little hard for me to separate factors that are characteristic of a 450 or 6.9, or those that are due to the unique history/upkeep of my cars.  But I'll try.

Let's start with the obvious - these are really the same car at the core.  A solid, safe chassis and a good interior.  So I'll focus my observations on the differences that count - 2.4 liters of displacement and the suspension.

I can't deny the allure of the 6.9's immense low end torque.  Effortlessly breaking *both* rear wheels loose always brings a smile to my face.  The M-100 engine is something everyone should experience.  The 450's power was always adequate, but the rear axle ratio had it feeling a bit bust at highway speeds, whereas the 6.9 is more relaxed.

But experience doesn't mean you have to live with it, and living with it means getting 10 mpg instead of 15, and nastier maintenance and repair bills when they come.  Your choice.

Handling is harder for me to judge.  My 450 had 15" wheels, and fresh shocks and springs.  Handling was wonderful - it was actually 'tossable'.  My 6.9 seems to demand a more deliberate hand - it floats over bumps much more nicely, but it does not seem as locked down in curves.  I'm sure that the difference in tires plays a strong role here, or I may just need to get more experience with the 6.9.

End result is that the 450 was an almost daily driver for me - I took the kids to school in it and drove it often.  Because the 6.9 is so much cleaner, I've insured it under my classic car policy, and can't use it as a daily driver anymore.  So I drive it less.  I also get more concerned if the kids kick the seats, or other stuff.  I wasn't so concerned in the 450.

The 6.9 is the ultimate expression of the W116, but it can be a demanding mistress.  I've found I drive mine less than the 450 because of insurance, repair and fuel costs.  I fuss over issues more - I just drove and enjoyed the 450 for what it was.  If this is going to be your first W116, I would recommend starting with a 450, and only going to a 6.9 if you need to.  But you need not feel shortchanged in a 450.  Simply buy the best example (watch the rust!) you can afford, and enjoy it.

Robert

4.5 vs 6.9?  Easy choice.  4.5 is my opinion....  economically more valid as an investment.

Here is my rationale:

1.  Always buy the best you can afford, which means if you want to stay under $10,000USD a nice 6.9 is unlikely.  Also, why pour more money into a collector car then you must - and the appearance and performance of 6.9 is not that substantial vs a 450 or 280, especially in the european specification cars you will be considering.

2.  Performance is nearly identical at any rational level of driving that matters in a 30 year-old vehicle.  If you want a Benz hot rod, buy a 560 SEL or S600.  All 116s are big, heavy cars.  While they do have high performance for their era, it is mainly something you can appreciate today in the context of BALANCE and engineering excellence, not raw performance. 

The 6.9s have terrible tradeoffs in weight distribution and economy.  In my opinion, the best performing 116 is actually a Euro 280SE....from the perspective of driving pleasure it is all downhill from there.  Yes, there is a tiny numerical superiority in a 6.9....but only as you scrub away driving pleasure and front rubber.

3.  Investment.  In my opinion, a PERFECT collector car will always outearn marginal examples, except in the case of restorations, which is prohibitively expensive nowadays due to the low high-end value of a restored 116.

Also, as an investment vehicle, cars just don't hold up.  I've had two cars in my life that recently went to auction nationally - my 51 studebaker (owned from 1974 - 1980, and a 1966 Pontiac Bonneville, owned in 1977-78).  Both cars sold for over $25,000, and I sold them for 2600 and 4000, respectively.  But both were RESTORED before sale.... and in total I made money by selling and investing in other properties.

4.  My Humble Opinion.  Buy what I just bought - the best, newest, nicest 450SEL you can find.  Think about it - it was the top Mercedes for an era.... an iconic design....a car driven by statesmen and superstars.... yet you can buy a nearly perfect one for under $5000 USD?  Incredible.  I notice European values are flat as well.  An incredible, stunning value.  What other top-line Mercedes in history has ever reached this (low) price point?  None in the modern era.

Here is my opinion on relative value of 1973 - 1980 Mercedes in 20 years.....1 of course being maximum..... 

1.  Perfect 6.9
2.  Perfect  300SD
3.  Perfect 450 SEL
4.  Perfect SE
5.  Perfect 107 SL
6.  Perfect 300D

Note the abiding concept is "perfect".  If a car isn't close to or at museum quality, all you have to do is check Kruse or EBay and see the difference.

Hope this helps!

John

Styria-

Excellent question!  Answer:  I don't know - yet.   ::) I was not shopping for a car, much less a 6.9, when this one dropped in my lap.  I would have happily continued driving my 450 for years otherwise.  But the 6.9's owner got a new job in a new state, and the 6.9 needed to go *now*.  I paid $5500 US for it, and given its condition, price guides (Old Car Price Guide) place its value between $11,000 and $19,000.  So I guess I couldn't say no, but I couldn't keep both.

Given my circumstances, and the particular 450 and 6.9 involved here, I'm glad I switched to the 6.9.  The 450 is now in good hands, and the 6.9 is in much better condition than the 450 (not that the 450 was bad, just not as near perfect as the 6.9).  My particular 6.9 is a nicely kept original car, and an excellent addition to my restored '64 Buick Riviera and all original, unrestored '67 Chevelle Malibu.  But as such, I can't use it every day, and I must say I'll miss that.

John's points are excellent ones, buy the best you can afford and enjoy it.  I'd rather have a clean, original #2 condition 280S than a ratty 6.9.  There is nothing in the world more expensive than a cheap Mercedes.   ;D

Robert

Given the choice in those terms, I'd probably choose a #1 450 over a #2 6.9, definitely over a #3 6.9.  But I'm a sucker for clean, original cars, and the day to day maintainability and repairability of a 450 over a 6.9 is a draw for me.  Heck, I just swapped about $2500 plus a largely #3 450 for a largely #2 6.9  :P.

At the end of the day, either car has too many doors to become ultra collectible or valuable, so although the 6.9 is, and will always be worth significantly more than a 450, I'm not sure it will outweigh the carrying costs of a 6.9, especially one that has been neglected.  Putting a rough 6.9 is a job for the stout of heart, wallet and stomach, and I am impressed, if not awestruck, by the efforts of folks like alabbasi to do it - twice!  6.9s are a labor of love, for I don't see any way to recoup the increased maintenance and repair costs they generate.  I largely agree with John's estimate of future values, except I think nice R107 models will at least equal the value of 6.9s.

Thinking about it a little more, I am glad I got the 6.9 I did, and don't regret the swap I made.  It will cost me in the long run, I will drive it less, but there is the satisfaction of owning the ultimate '70s Mercedes.  My point is that no one need feel that they compromised or settled by buying a 450.  Or a 350 or 280 for that matter.