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280sel 89000 euro

Started by w116john, 03 May 2016, 03:37 AM

rumb

M-100 registry has about 900 6.9's out of the 7380.  Any guesses how many are left?  At some point you would think all the remainders would be fixed up.  I do think there are plenty of bad/unrestored one outs there still though.
'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

daantjie

#16
Wild guess from me would be a third of 7380 still on the planet.   Then half of those are rotting away beyond repair. Then another half of that in rough shape but driveable.  Then another half of that in fair shape. Once more to get to good shape. And finally once more to get to the really nice ones. Should leave about 80 or so in really nice shape. Let's say 100 to be generous. And those are the ones who should fetch top  dollar if kept that way. But then again I could be way off haha ;D
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

w116john


https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk is an interesting website shows how many are on registered in the uk, it would be great to see more countries with this info

7 450se's and 19 6.9's on the road in the uk

floyd111

Score for Taiwan, actual licensed cars
6.9 = 0
450SEL = 12
280S/SE/SEL = 37

Actual drive-able W116 with genuine papers, safe to drive 500km = 1 or 2

rumb

Quote from: w116john on 06 June 2016, 06:28 PM

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk is an interesting website shows how many are on registered in the uk, it would be great to see more countries with this info

7 450se's and 19 6.9's on the road in the uk


https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/mercedes_450_sel_6.9_auto

interesting chart.  20 years ago there were 97.

What is SORN?  there are another  37 of those.
'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

w116john


sorn means the owner has declared that the car is not being used on the public road, so is not liable for car tax. you would wonder how many sorn cars will make it back on the road.

no mater what numbers are not huge

UTn_boy

I don't see firms like Classic Data claim any authority on pricing. They're just a business that offers a service, and publishes their findings in a printed magazine.
It's not like they're some government organisation, having legal authority over anything and forcing everyone to rely on it. I don't see their data being pushed as an ultimate source of truth on the continent either, it's pretty much a thing of personal choice. How are Hagerty / Nada doing in the US?


They don't have to claim authority.  It becomes a set standard that most people adhere to just because it's in a publication.  They default themselves to the authoritative demeanor in which they seek.  Yes, they're offering a service, but it's very biased.  One has to play by their rules or they can't play at all.  Consequently, "forcing" people to rely on the information is instant, but in a very elusive and underhanded way.  Be it a personal choice or not, they know that most people will turn to their publication for reference.  It all works EXACTLY like any government in this world works:  "Follow the Leader".  NADA is primarily used by banks for loan values on cars that are 10 years old and newer.  NADA doesn't apply to vintage marques.  Hagarty is a complete joke.  They purposely inflate car values so their policy holders will insure their cars for more.  More money in Hagarty's pocket this way.  BUT....Hagarty is/was in several lawsuits against them in which they didn't pay out on a policy after a total loss was determined.  And no, there are no "two sides to the story" or "special circumstances".  The policy holder insured their car for what Hagarty said it was worth, and when a total loss was declared, they flat out refused to pay stating that "the vehicle isn't worth what you insured it for". When I used to go to car events, I would always harass them if they were there.  They never would answer any of my questions.  Very strange.....

How exactly? I think I'm missing your point.
The things they check are a constant list, why wouldn't be the price for such a service be constant either? And to counter your argument about vested interest - having non-fixed pricing, or a commission based pricing, which depends on the value of the appraised vehicle gives the appraiser an incentive to drive the price up *and* opens the process up to corruption.


If they have the authority to set values based upon a constant check list, then they also have the authority to change and/or manipulate that check list from car to car, and on a case by case evaluation.  As far as charging for their services, they can hide charges anywhere they want, AND get away with it.  Corruption for the reason(s) stated is understood. However, there is just as much corruption in doing things the way they're doing them now, likely more, but at a lower percentage so people don't get suspicious.  This is why they make such a big deal out of claiming that all evaluations are the same regardless of the make of automobile. 


Because it's their business, and that's how they make a living?

They can't run a business and make a living in the world today if they don't have a vested interest.   They would starve to death otherwise.  Business entities like Classic don't run a business in an honest fashion.  They run the business the way that best suits the company, and do so regardless of how an honest business should be run.  It's how the modern business is able to stay afloat.  The only extra expense they have to pay for to run their business this way is what ever it is they have to pay to hide this dark side of their operations. 

It's one of their sources of data, as far as I understand. It's what many European insurers also use for assessing maximum policy payout value, so called "OMSP" - open-market sales price.
In many jurisdictions in Europe private car sales fall under "capital gains" taxation, and must be declared. I wouldn't be surprised if aggregated data was available to commercial entities


Just one source.  When the fat cat auction prices are factored in, the data collected up to that point becomes botched, but that 's exactly their plan....for financial gain. 

Couldn't agree more. However, keep in mind such testosterone-fests are usually focused on the top-tier of cars. The most rare/desired/flashy/hip. And there's also smaller auctions, local ones etc. where there isn't big money involved, and it's closer to what people are able and willing to pay.

This line of automobiles is a large part of my work/interest.  I'll fight tooth and nail until I take my last breath to thwart this corrupt way of moving cars.  There is no reason in this world that a W108 or a W109 should sell for 100k.  600's in particular.  I don't get involved with Gullwings or Ferrari cars.  At the prices they're at now, it's only a matter of time before they fall sharply in value.  They've just about priced themselves out of existence.  Classic will give more consideration to the larger auctions than the smaller ones anyway. Why?  Because there is more money in dealing with inflated values, and they can get away with it legally. 

Yes, there is: insurance. How otherwise do you envisage so called "agreed value" policies? Someone needs to make the valuation *and* they must be trustworthy enough both to the client, and the insurer. I don't expect every insurer to have their own specialised valuers.

It's actually quite interesting, as the term that Classic Data uses in their valuations is "Wiederbeschaffungswert" or "replacement value" - so basically not how much they think a vehicle is worth, but more how much they think it would cost to replace it with something as identical as possible, given market conditions at the time of appraisal. So, yeah, it may be heavily biased upwards if the market is in a bubble (which you'd probably agree is the case now?). It's a double (triple ;)) edged sword. As an owner, you'd like a valuation that gives you relative piece of mind in case of damage, loss (that's my aim). As a seller, you care only for as high a value as possible. As a buyer, quite the contrary. You can't win in all respects.


You must understand something.  Years ago when automobile insurance first came about, it was a no holds barred type of insurance.  Regardless of what it took to repair the car, and regardless of it's age, they paid out to repair the car.  No questions asked.   Insurance companies quickly realized that if there was a set value on the cars, then they could save money.  This is when the terms "totaled out" and "replacement value" came about.  It's only a ploy to keep their pockets padded.  When I insure my cars, I always make sure the they understand that the car isn't worth what they have it valued at. We then insure the car for a lesser amount to keep things in a realistic perspective.  I don't understand how you could have peace of mind knowing that your car is valued AND insured for more than it's actually worth, especially through and insurance company.   

Nobody doubts that. Yet, standard rules of open market apply - it's a constant struggle between supply and demand, and other factors like perceived return on investment. If people are willing to pay 89000 for a 280SEL, and there's enough of them,  or if MB suddenly starts trumpeting the W116 up, prices will follow.

The words "standard rules" and "open market supply" can't exist together in the automotive field.  It creates a dictatorship type of mentality that more or less tells you what you will pay and/or what you have to sell something for.  In addition, the rules aren't ever adhered to.  The struggle between supply and demand are given far too much credit, and is also very inaccurate, especially for W116 cars.  A return on investment for a W116 does not exist at this point in time, so that cannot be factored in.  Just because someone pays 89,000 for a 280sel doesn't mean that is what they're worth.  Just because someone spends $150,000 on a restoration doesn't make the car worth any more than what it's currently trending at.  There are always exceptions, and those exceptions must be viewed as such.  Nothing more.  It's suicide to let a fool and his money dictate what something is worth.  If mercedes were to start trumpeting up the W116, then people would believe it just because Mercedes said so.  That makes absolutely no sense, and believing as such only accentuates my point and strokes Mercedes's ego.  If Mercedes told you that your oil filter was now $150.00 instead of $12.00 all because your particular model rose in value just because they said it was more valuable, would you believe them?  Maybe, maybe not.  Would you pay that price?  Probably not.  We're not puppets, so cut the strings. 
1966 250se coupe`,black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3,papyrus white/dark red leather
1975 450se, pine green metallic/green leather
1973 300sel 4.5,silver blue metallic/blue leather
1979 450sel 516 red/bamboo