Author Topic: 1980 6.9  (Read 405 times)

UTn_boy

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #15 on: 08 June 2017, 01:35 PM »
I wasn't ruling out all of the other factors regarding the price of parts.  However, I meant what I said about part prices in the literal sense.  When the value of a particular chassis rises, so do the parts prices for that chassis.  It's a game manufacturers have played for many years, and it makes very clear sense.  I'm not sure how to further convey the simplicity of this fact.  For example, before the pagodas shot up in prices, a windshield was around $200-$300.  After they skyrocketed in value, the windshield went up to over $500 overnight for no reason at all.  In Europe, the windshield is over 700 Euros! 

High market prices are not what supports the supply of parts.  It does affect it, but only to a small degree.   Supply of parts usually relies on demand, and demand can also affect price, as was already mentioned. 

Nathan, you've completely missed the my point in thinking that you have to be on government handouts to be an enthusiast.  What I was saying was that the majority of W116 enthusiasts aren't millionaires.  Re-read what Squiggle Dog wrote in his first paragraph.  Neither myself or Squiggle Dog are assuming that all enthusiasts are rich.  And of course parts prices rise when values of the car rises.  Those two things are mathematical functions of one another.  Please refer the the first paragraph of this post regarding that.  Furthermore, if a part is re-made due to demand, the price will be double what the part is actually worth because they base the price off of the percentage of demand.  There has to be a large demand before they'll even consider re-making a part. 

MarkU, High market values don't support parts supply.  Again, demand prevails over anything else.  And why exactly do you feel that rising values is such a good thing?  Surely you've read all of the fore and aft commentary thus far that explains why rising values is predominately a negative attribute?  Again, absolutely no good comes out of values rising.  The only ones that benefit are the far flippers who care nothing about the cars.  Regarding the automatic climate control, it's one of the simplest ACC systems ever made, and for a buyers guide to warn against it is pretty petty.  Servo and amplifier prices aside, Parts are extremely cheap for the system, and once repaired, the longevity of the system is resorred for another 15-20 years.  However, it's a buyers guide, and they aren't to be taken to heart since the people that wrote it are likely biased.  It's just a guide....remember that. 
1966 250se coupe`, black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3, papyrus white/dark red leather
1973 300sel 4.5, silver blue metallic/blue leather
1976 280s astral silver/blue MB Tex
1978 450sel 6.9 Euro, Anthr/velour

rumb

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #16 on: 08 June 2017, 02:01 PM »
I attended a presentation last summer by Hagerty.  They said when a certain model becomes too expensive then folks start buying the next one in line.  as pagodas have become too expensive now R107 are increasing in demand and thus prices rise.

When the 6.3 becomes too much $$ then the 6.9 will appreciate due to the new demand.

They use the data collected from their site for insurance quotes to judge the interest in each model.  they assume if people are looking at the car then there must be some level of interest in it and then they use that info and other things like auctions sales to determine what the "hot" cars are.

600's cost too much so people pay a lot for 6.3's.  it will eventually work down to 6.9's.   unfortunately the other W116 will probably never amount to much.


W116 may be the ugly duckling, but EVERYONE knows what a 6.9 is.

Regarding 6.9 suspension, they sure get an undeserved  bad rap.  they are really quite simple and not all that $ to fix in the grand scheme of things.   No different than any other newer mercedes airmatic.
'68 250S, '77 6.9 euro, '91 300SE, '98 SL500

UTn_boy

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #17 on: 09 June 2017, 03:37 AM »
Well, Hagarty is pretty hated in the car community, especially in the Mercedes crowd.  They purposely inflate car values in order to bring in higher premiums.  They also allow for agreed value policies in which the stiff you on when a total loss claim is filed.  Essentially, they're allowing policy holders to insure there $5,000 car for $20,000.  When the policy holder files a total loss claim, and is at zero fault, Hagarty is coming back saying more or less "well, your car is only currently worth $3,000-$5,000 in top condition, so we're going to only offer you $4,000."  They're always in lawsuits regarding these corrupt way of business, and they're losing the majority of the cases.  Feel free to look the hearings and rulings up on Michigan's government website.  Your jaw will drop. 

Their way of determining values is screwed up six ways to Sunday.  Assumptions aren't solid enough to go on.  I contacted them a few years ago asking where exactly they came up with their values on the 600 because they were about $60,000-$70,000 too high on their estimates.  You know what they said?  They said they use auction house pricing, and that they rely on that more than watching where people's interests are.  Do you fellas know just how skewed auction house prices are? 

There are several driving factors an auction that always skew the numbers.  You have the heat of the game, grown men with millions of dollars acting like children just to outbid the other fella because he doesn't like them, they're usually boozed up on alcohol, and lots and lots of testosterone.  Those 4 things alone are the very reason aution house prices are totally useless. 

If classic car insurance is something you're after, then seek other companies like JC Taylor.  (In the U.S.)  Not sure about other companies world wide.  And for heavens sake don't use Hagarty's pricing guide.  Everything in it is botched!   I don't have classic car insurance on any of my cars because I drive them too much, and I'm ok with that. 
1966 250se coupe`, black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3, papyrus white/dark red leather
1973 300sel 4.5, silver blue metallic/blue leather
1976 280s astral silver/blue MB Tex
1978 450sel 6.9 Euro, Anthr/velour

marku

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #18 on: 18 June 2017, 11:32 AM »
Still think rising prices are a good thing particularly in supporting parts. Read recently that Mercedes were now offering a part for a pre-war car that was previously unobtainable. Reason being that an owner/restorer had paid for the re-tooling to complete a project and so MB were now able to offer it generally.
450SE silver green/bamboo velour/green vinyl roof
Mercedes Viano Ambiente 2.2CDI LWB

nathan

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #19 on: 19 June 2017, 07:00 AM »
heh Utn, I don't think I missed your point. There is no formal debate here, only opinions. Mine was that you implied that if you had any money, you couldn't be an enthusiast which would be a daft comment.  Further suggesting that Australian values aren't to be considered when valuing the 6.9 is also a bit odd - remember you are on a site created by Australians!  I daresay that the US has some of the weakest market values of 6.9s globally, so it could be US prices are less relevant than those here on a global basis.  Anyway, I think risings costs for these cars is a good thing but people will pay what they want for them.  With supply dwindling, the average price will eventually creep up regardless.
6.9 79 #6436
6.9 79 #6290
6.9 79 #6181
6.9 78 #4764
6.9      #3096
6.9 76 #1741
6.9 76 #0902

UTn_boy

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #20 on: 19 June 2017, 10:29 AM »
Oh no.....I only pointed out that the majority of people with money aren't enthusiasts because they buy something like a 6.9 as an investment.  They buy it, hand on to it for a few years, and then sell it for a profit.  Ironically, during the ownership any repairs are put off or done as cheaply as possible.  I see it happen all of the time.

I made mention of the Australian values not being of any use because the Australians have tendency to pay triple and quadruple for a car as compared to what the rest of the world currently pays.  The fact that Australians created this nice little website is insignificant regarding the point I was trying to get across.  If someone was offended, then they must have egg shell feelings.  My intent wasn't to offend anyone; only to bring to light that there are certain areas of the market that can't be considers because the end results will be skewed.  The U.S. maybe the weakest value for the 6.9, but the U.S. also has the largest supply, so that's why it's factored in.  Australia had/has very few 6.9 cars, but factoring in just one Australian price will skew the values for the rest of the world. 

As far as rising costs go, I can't help but think that the majority of people want the values to rise so they can cash out.  If values rise during the time that one owns a 6.9, then it hurts the owner's pocket book because parts prices go up and insurance premiums go up.  The insurance premiums rise not only because the replacement cost increases, but also because they know that parts prices will sky rocket.  It's a double edged sword for both the owner and insurer.  Another negative aspect of rising values is that interests in the 6.9 will decline.  People turn their attention to other makes/models when a certain model becomes overpriced. 

Ask yourselves:  What good does it do for you, the owner, when a car you have rises in value during ownership?  How does it affect you?  Aside from maybe breaking even or making a profit if the car were to be sold, there is no benefit to a car rising in value past anything of the intrinsic nature. 

Mark, rising prices have no affect on Mercedes's or aftermarket parts suppliers decisions to re-make  a part or not.  A demand drives that decision.  If anything, rising prices will hurt parts supply due to interest in the model having declined.  When that happens the demand for parts pretty much extinguishes itself. 

So think carefully about what you wish for.  It will have  negative impact on all involved. 
1966 250se coupe`, black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3, papyrus white/dark red leather
1973 300sel 4.5, silver blue metallic/blue leather
1976 280s astral silver/blue MB Tex
1978 450sel 6.9 Euro, Anthr/velour

robertd

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #21 on: 19 June 2017, 03:09 PM »
UTn,
 the logic you used does not stack up.
When the value of a particular model goes up, the owners are more inclined to spend good money on maintaining and restoring it.?
Just my opinion.
116   1978 450SEL 6.9 #  4848
116   1979 450SEL  6.9 # 5884
116   1979 450SEL  6.9 # 6225  SOLD
116   1974 450SEL
107   1985 380SL     Concourse
107   1974 350SLC   5.0 project
108   1970 280S

marku

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #22 on: 20 June 2017, 12:18 PM »
Everyone is making quite valid points but a good market price encourages ownership. Obviously we do not want the sort of prices some Mercedes models now go for but ultimately it is almost inevitable. Some models though seem destined to keep a low market value although something simply being old is sufficient to attract some purchasers whether or not it has any intrinsic value. I think that the 116 has a lot going for it and Mercedes seems to think the same. I quite agree that the high prices will of course make them unobtainable for most but it was always so and the enthusiast simply looks for the next model. I used to be a Jaguar enthusiast, and still am for that matter, owning and rebuilding several. A couple of Mk2s, a 1940s 3.5 and of course a '65 4.2 E type roadster. I can't afford any of them now and it was looking for another project and considering the 5.3 v12 XJS that I came across the 116. I am really glad I did because I think it a great car with a lot to interest and also it has the support of Mercedes. I have learned a lot about a car that I had never heard of, its been hard work, But I don't regret it for a minute.   
450SE silver green/bamboo velour/green vinyl roof
Mercedes Viano Ambiente 2.2CDI LWB

shaggy

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #23 on: 20 June 2017, 01:25 PM »
I don't really mind what the prices do, because, while not wishing to sound mercenary, there are enough interesting old cars out there to keep my spanners oily until I'm too old to drive.

I usually try to run a Series XJ6 and an S Class in parallel, but, whilst Jags offer sublime dynamics,  the w116 is probably the best engineered mass production car ever built, and as such offers (relatively) cheap ownership and should continue to do so even if they go up in value.

UTn_boy

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #24 on: 21 June 2017, 12:47 PM »
Robert, with the W116, what you state isn't always true.  Again, at the current low prices that W-116 cars are selling for they're attracting people with not a lot of disposable income.  They certainly love the car and are enthusiasts through and through, but the majority won't spend money on them because they can't.  Even if the W116 all of a sudden started selling for insane amounts they still won't have money to put into them.  At that point, they may decide to sell it. 

This doesn't apply to just the W116 either.  When any car value sky rockets, that doesn't necessarily mean that owners will start putting money in them...mostly because doing so after the cars values rise means it'll cost that much more.  Yes, restorations shops, Mercedes Proper, and aftermarket parts suppliers charge more or less depending on what a cars values is.  I don't, as it's corrupt, but the majority do. 

Mark, I still think you're mistaken on your idea of rising values driving parts supplies and/or manufacture.  If we go by that convention, then why aren't more needed parts available for a 600 or an old Ferrari?  Mercedes has no interest in the W116.  It's that simple.  Sure, they promote restored examples or maybe a low mileage example, but they're still not going to start supplying parts for them any time soon, if ever at all. I think all of us can agree on the fact that a W116 is nearly impossible to restore because of the lack of parts.  Just look how long it's taken Stan to procure all of what he needed just to restore 2 W116 cars.  Even so, he's probably cornered the market on W116 NOS parts by now because there are either no more or too few of the parts left. 
1966 250se coupe`, black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3, papyrus white/dark red leather
1973 300sel 4.5, silver blue metallic/blue leather
1976 280s astral silver/blue MB Tex
1978 450sel 6.9 Euro, Anthr/velour

rumb

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'68 250S, '77 6.9 euro, '91 300SE, '98 SL500

ptashek

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #26 on: 21 June 2017, 01:55 PM »
the w116 is probably the best engineered mass production car ever built

Maybe not THE best, but definitely up-there.
Testament to that statement is my just completed run of ~1600km around Bretagne and Normandy, with not as much as a blown fuse (but a kerbed 15" bundt though).
I've averaged 13.7l/100km on E98, in temperatures reaching 39*C...
1979 "Icon Gold" 450SE (history, restoration pics)
1977 "Milan Brown" 350SE (parted out, parts for sale / swap)

Squiggle Dog

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #27 on: 21 June 2017, 02:35 PM »
It's a bit sad when people use the value of a car to justify its ownership. I'm more interested in the quality of the vehicle than its perceived value. Some absolutely horrible cars have very high market values, while some fantastic cars (like our W116s) have a very low market value. It doesn't seem to make sense. But, more people seem interested in restoring Ford Pintos than they are W116s.

For example, my roommate had a 1971 Ford Pinto that was a bit rough, but he did some things to fix it up and make it look pretty decent for not a whole lot of money. He sold that thing for $3,500 or something crazy. At the exact same time I sold my Milan Brown 1979 300SD on eBay which was in perfect mechanical condition and even had all the weatherstripping in the windshields and doors replaced and only got $900. Then shortly after, I sold a 1960 W111 220SE with sliding roof that was in fantastic condition, interior and exterior. It only went for about $800. But if it was a beat-up American musclecar or even a common American economy car, it would sell for several times that.
1967 W110 Universal Wagon, Turbo Diesel, Tail Fins, 4 Speed Manual Column Shift, A/C
1980 W116 300SD Turbo Diesel, DB479 Walnut Brown, Sunroof, Highly Optioned

floyd111

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #28 on: 21 June 2017, 09:11 PM »
Still better than here in Taiwan, where you have no choice but to shell out 8-10000usd for a broken down, rotten W116.

It amazes me altogether how come global vintage car prices -in general- are that low. Millions of people spend 50-100000usd on a new car that will lose all but all value in 10 years. All of them would rather sit in plastic and tin cans whilst bleeding money every second of the decade -so they can show off AMG  and M-badges.
I don't get that at all.
Buy vintage, keep your value, ride in style. I don't see the alternative.

rumb

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Re: 1980 6.9
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 06:33 AM »
'68 250S, '77 6.9 euro, '91 300SE, '98 SL500