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Garage => Test Drive => Topic started by: UTn_boy on 02 June 2020, 10:53 PM

Title: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 02 June 2020, 10:53 PM
So, about 4 years ago I received a phone call from a young fella that lives in the same town as I.  He got my number from the dealership.  He was looking to sell his Grandfather's 450se that he bought new.  His Grandfather, while still alive and kicking, no longer has the ability to drive or much of his mental capacities left.  The grandson that called me originally wanted to sell the car.  I told him I'd come look at it, but when the time came he decided that he wanted to keep it, and wanted me to help him get it back on the road.  Of course, I told him no worries, and that I'd help him when he was ready.  That day never came, but I periodically kept in touch with him to maintain my interest. 

The reason I wanted this car was because it is Moss Green Metallic with Olive green leather inside.  And a short wheel base with a D-Jetronic 4.5 V-8. 

So fast forward 4 years (today) he says he's ready to sell, that he realizes that what it needs is far more than he can do or wants to pay.  So he gives me the address to his Grandfathers house, and I met him around 6 o'clock tonight.  The car was amazingly preserved...it exceeded my expectations by far.  Even thought it has been repainted at some point in the past it still look really nice.  It's dirty, but it's been sitting in the garage for 15 years.  So I don't mind the dirt.  It'll wash off. 

I couldn't find any rust at all on the car.  Outside, underneath, at the firewall....anywhere!  Naturally, all of the rubber seals (front/rear glass, trunk) are due for replacement, but the rest of the car is amazingly straight and unmolested.  The pictures below should be a really good visual representation of what I was looking at tonight. 

The engine seems to be seized.....but now I can't tell if it's a timing chain issue or a piston rusted to the cylinder wall.  Regardless, I'm ok with that because I have spare engines here at home. 

The car only has 82,000 miles on it, too!

Here's my dilemma......Should I buy it?  I don't really need another car, but I love the green on green...probably too much.  Sure, it may need an engine, but that is ok.  It'll need some rubber seals and excelsior pads for the rear seat, but I have those in stock, so no worries there.  Even the A/C system is still holding it's R-12!  He's only asking $500 for it.  I just can't imagine I could go wrong buying it, but we all know how these can send us down an endless and costly rabbit hole.  For example....we all know it's going to need all new brakes, radiator re-cored, new or cleaned gas tank, fuel pump, Injectors and fuel lines cleaned/replaced, and on and on.  I'm all too familiar with the process, but for the first time in my life I'm at odds with what I should do.  Hence, my reaching out to you fellas for some constructive criticism on my decision making, and al based on what I've said about the car and the pictures.  I value your thoughts.  I'll have to admit that the thought of someone else buying this really upsets me....which may give me my answer on what I should do, but at the same time I'm still undecided. haha  So what are your thoughts?  Yes, I'd really enjoy driving and using it, and I have no interest in "flipping" it.....you can't make money on a W116 anyway. 

Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: daantjie on 03 June 2020, 12:24 AM
Aaron I'm a sucker for green over green too so maybe I'm biased but @ 500 bucks it's a no brainier of note ;D
You might luck out with the engine too, I'd say it's more than worth a slight gamble  ;)
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: revilla on 03 June 2020, 12:25 AM
Life's too short to say no to this opportunity that came straight to you and keeps screaming at your door "buy me" "save me" "give me a second life"
I understood this isn't a financial business case decision. Not on our W116 hobby/passion/pleasure.  Again, it's a beautiful opportunity that practically chased you. Without hesitation I'll pick it up tomorrow. Additionally, imagine the family of the grandfather knowing the car will be going to good hands and be drivable again. It'll be joy for them too. Follow your instinct, buy it.
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 03 June 2020, 01:06 AM
Daantjie, you'd be surprised how hard it is to sell a W116 in the U.S.  Remember it took me 2 years to sell that last one.  Regardless, I take your view in the same light! 

Robert, I agree.  Life is short.  $500 is a lot to me right now.....but I can definitely swing it.  I'll just have to work extra hard the next few weeks or sell a radio or something.  Yes, it's been in my life for the last four years, albeit indirectly.  The Grandson did make a comment last night that resonated with me. He said, "Well, regardless I'm certain I'm selling it to the right person.  After all, only a deserving, noteworthy potential future custodian of this car would drive a W109 to look at a W116!"  haha  He's pretty knowledgeable on Mercedes as far as chassis numbers go, but that really made me feel good that he it was a relief that he knew it would be going to a good home. 

One thing is for sure....if I buy it.....when it's up and running again I'll definitely be driving it to show the family.  I'm certain they'd love it.  Thank you both for your encouragement.  :)
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: Nabstud on 03 June 2020, 01:51 AM
Go for it if you have the room. I've already missed a couple complete running parts cars for similar money, wish I had the room.

It sounds like a great automobile, way too good to pass up!!
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: floyd111 on 03 June 2020, 04:13 AM
Tough one.
I am biased as well, at this stage of what is MY W116 life. 500 bucks isn't even part of the discussion, but as far as i got to know you, you are a maniac for detail, dare I say someone with full blown automotive OCD. What are the chances you are not gonna go down the utterly obvious financial rabbit hole? Especially since you don't really need this car, you might pause and have a re-think. In my view, there's no such thing as fate. There is desire, through.
If you have the funds to satisfy your need for perfection, go for it. Indeed, life is short, but spending buckets does cost you other things in life. A few more repairs and you got yourself the equivalent of a round trip to South America, to see our civilisations' origins, with your own eyes. or the means to grab one of those OTHER 28 cars you always wanted since you were a kid, that just popped up on BAT for a breeze.
Not sure the south america trip is your thing, but I would have a think on what you are likely gonna spend on this car until the end of 2021. Keep that money in mind and have yourself a 2 hour browsing trip on BAT, and check out both past and present offers there. Since you live in the States, -different from Taiwan-, you actually have the possibility of buying a car there. If, after 2 hours of browsing you still want that green W116 as badly as before, go for it. ;D

Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: revilla on 03 June 2020, 04:24 AM
Aaron, this discussion made me think of that W115 opportunity that crossed my path spontaneously and it's still waiting for me.  Covid prevented me from going there and test it.  I'm still interested in your advice. I'll send you the email again if you have time.
Thanks in advance
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 03 June 2020, 05:54 AM
Stan, I love your input.  I will say this......with my OCD it can and does get me into a lot of trouble.  I had this conversation with myself, too.  I ended the conversation with something along the lines of "if you buy it, leave well enough alone and fix ONLY what's broken.  You can worry about the details later."  Now, that seems like sound advice....but will it be easy for me to follow?  I'll have to make a conscious effort to do so, and it won't be easy.  To satisfy my OCD I'll just have to spend extra time doing things that don't cost anything....like cleaning or polishing.  At the least I'll have to buy head gasket kits, timing chain and rails, oil pump chain and rail, guides, and seals.  At most I'll have to put another engine in.  So I know what it may potentially need, and about what it'll cost.  Then there are times when I get impatient because I can't save up the money fast enough to buy the part I need in a decent amount of time.  I get over that easily, but it's annoying.

I'll never ever be on an air plane, so any trips that involve flying are totally out unless my private anesthetist comes with me. haha  BUT....I do want to travel the U.S. and see friends and loved ones......but I can't do that until I have a car to do it in.....or, rather, a car that I WANT to do it in.  This one fits that bill..as does my W108 and W109, but they're needy at the moment.  So I think that with time I can safely spend what I need to spend on the car to have it the way I want it.  So I'm going to take your advice, along with the others, and weigh it carefully, and use it all in the most pragmatic way that I can.  Though, I still want the car.  My only concern is that the same thing might happen with it as what happened with that red 450sel I bought and subsequently spent north of $15k on.  When I was done I was like..."well, I'm done now....what do I do with it?!"  I knew I wouldn't be able to get more than maybe $1,500 out of it, so I just gave it to Dad for his Birthday 3 years ago.  He's still enjoying the hell out of it even though he only drives it once or twice a month.  In retrospect, my Dad spent a LOT more than $15k on me growing up.  So it was worth it to me.

Nabstud, I'm of that mindset, too.  But room is definitely a problem, but only short term.  So I think I can over look that issue for now. 
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: ptashek on 03 June 2020, 06:26 AM
If you buy it to keep it, that 500 is irrelevant if you can afford it. If you buy it to sell it, it becomes part of the ROI question. But at any rate, it's not a lot of cash for what seems like a great base to make a good car out of.

If shipping to Europe wasn't this stupidly expensive, I'd buy it myself for 500, and fix what needs fixing. This much buys you a bucket of rust down here.
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: floyd111 on 03 June 2020, 06:46 AM
Actually. shipping that car to ireland would not be that expensive. I can hook you  up with some of the best expeditors out there, see what they charge.
Wouldn't that be as good as gifting a W116 to your dad, Aaron? ;)
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: Jed on 03 June 2020, 09:28 AM
Aaron,

While reading your initial post, I began with wow..an original owner w116, great colors, very cool find.  Then you mentioned the repaint...not great but not a deal breaker, then you mentioned the seized engine, definitely not great but for a guy with your skill set and background, also not a deal breaker (btw I have a 1976 w116 450sel parts car with an engine I have no use for). So at this point I am left thinking, whats the big attraction, BUT then you mention he wants $500....

Overall I don't think you can go wrong here. If your lucky, you'll get the engine freed up and running without an engine swap.  Enjoy the car for what it is and make a nice driver out of it. If you have to swap the engine, well probablyy not a big deal for you.

Worst case, you never get to fixing up the car and you use it for parts over the years and maybe, maybe not, get your money back that way.

Who else is going to take on this project? (other than many of the fanatics on this board?) 
Sounds like a no brainer. you said it yourself, you would be upset if someone else gets it.
this car found you...pull the trigger and don't look back. 

Just my 2 cents which is certainly not worth even that
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: rumb on 03 June 2020, 12:32 PM
For $500 I would take the chance. Put a big sticky note on the car that says "Only fix what's broke".

You might luck out on engine anyway. That and a good cleaning may yield a pleasant driver.

I love the unusual color. That green looks nice.

Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: Jed on 03 June 2020, 06:20 PM
Yes!! Definitely the sticky note!! I love it.  That should keep your OCD in check.  ;D
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: floyd111 on 03 June 2020, 08:51 PM
Asking anyone here at the asylum what to do with this car is like walking through the desert, screaming: "who wants ice cream??"
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: Jed on 03 June 2020, 10:01 PM
Isn't that the truth!!!!
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: Harv on 04 June 2020, 12:20 AM
Green is good.
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 04 June 2020, 05:41 AM
Haha.  You guys are a riot!  :)

Well, after conferring with you fellas, my Dad, a few close friends, and myself, I've decided to pull the trigger.  I think Father offered some sound advice...."if you buy it make sure to get rid of something so you'll make room AND have a way to fund the 450se parts and repairs."  So, taking that advice to heart, I'll be letting go of a 1967 W108 250se as soon as I get new tires, drive it, and charge the A/C.  It won't bring in much of anything, but someone will get a mechanically sound W108. 

I already know the potential issues I'm going to face with the engine......it'll either need an engine or a top end and timing chain rebuild.....which snowballs into having a valve job done since the heads are off.  The only thing that annoys me about the car is that because it's a U.S. model it has those stupid catalytic converters under each exhaust manifold.....you know, the ones that always melt the rubber motor mounts every year?  Yeah, I'm going to want to get rid of that mess.  Now, I have a set of Euro manifolds, so no bog deal there, but then I'm going to have to find a set of header pipes.  There's that snowball affect again.  :/  BUT, if that's the worst of it, I'll be alright. 

I've already bought a pad of sticky notes.  haha  I'll just have to stick them anywhere my wondering OCD mind and hands may venture.  And Lucas, you're advice is sound.  It'll be to keep and enjoy, so the initial +/- $500 purchase price really is negligible.  And an ROI?  haha  Nah.  That's just not possible on most W116 cars.  I can definitely swing the purchase price...thankfully. 

So, in the coming weeks I'll start another post showing better, more detailed pictures of the car, as well as what I find to be the cause of the seized engine.  It'll be something fun and relatively easy to do since V-8 work is pretty fresh on my mind.  In the last year I've had to remove heads and front covers on four V-8 engines.  Apparently, people don't take heed to the 100,000 mile timing chain replacement intervals.  And then SNAP goes the chain and or rail(s), and bang bang bang goes the engine. 
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: daantjie on 04 June 2020, 07:15 PM
Gentlemen, a round of applause ;)  Another nice 116 saved from wreck and ruin and now in ultra - capable hands, well done Aaron!
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 06 June 2020, 03:16 AM
My hands may be capable, but my bank account will not be afterward. haha 
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 02 July 2020, 02:25 PM
Well, the 450se is supposed to be delivered tomorrow.  I'll show some more pictures after it gets here. 
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: daantjie on 02 July 2020, 02:46 PM
Nice one ;)!
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: rumb on 02 July 2020, 04:16 PM
Well here is the 450se that keeps calling to me.  Should I?
https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/eastlake-1974-mercedes-450se/7136668741.html

yeah right, just needs a fuel pump.  I talked to him and he did drive it 500 miles before parking a year ago. - Car is debris from divorce. Interior is very nice, I believe the paint would buff up. Was an Arizona car.
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: daantjie on 02 July 2020, 05:17 PM
Quote from: rumb on 02 July 2020, 04:16 PM
Well here is the 450se that keeps calling to me.  Should I?
https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/eastlake-1974-mercedes-450se/7136668741.html

yeah right, just needs a fuel pump.  I talked to him and he did drive it 500 miles before parking a year ago. - Car is debris from divorce. Interior is very nice, I believe the paint would buff up. Was an Arizona car.

Interior for sure shows nice.  You can likely get this one for under $1K so really I cannot see you getting burnt on this one, as long as you have space and your other half will not make you sleep in it if you bring another "puppy" home ;D
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 02 July 2020, 05:44 PM
Well, with 210,000 miles on it it'll either need very little or a whole lot.  And those are some mighty fat/tall tires on that thing.  hahah
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: floyd111 on 02 July 2020, 07:17 PM
.
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: floyd111 on 02 July 2020, 07:18 PM
Quote from: rumb on 02 July 2020, 04:16 PM
Well here is the 450se that keeps calling to me.  Should I?
https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/eastlake-1974-mercedes-450se/7136668741.html

yeah right, just needs a fuel pump.  I talked to him and he did drive it 500 miles before parking a year ago. - Car is debris from divorce. Interior is very nice, I believe the paint would buff up. Was an Arizona car.

I'm gonna try and shoot this one down from afar.. ;D

White... Whatever is rusty, bobbly, scratched or dented is gonna stick out like an eyesore.
Arizona car: less rust, scorched rubbers and seals all around
The chrome wheel arches.. famous for hiding rotten wheel arches underneath. And there's clearly something wrong there.. black bitumen..or popped out rubbers?
The grille.. if this is how he treated his ex-wife, i get it. Major sign of not giving a f..
Front seat springs.. looks like no springs in there
rear seat.. looks like it was stuffed with something to hide a major collapse.
cracks in the dash
Does he even have floor carpets?
Looks like dent in the passenger door, and what's that in the glass of the driver's door?
rust above the rear lights
a dent in the rear middle bumper
tacky license plate holder.. a sign he does not care much for good taste or originality.
ist that dirt or rust above the head lights?
May be the light..but it looks like a crack in the front window.

And..no pics from the engine bay, underside, and no description of the car, other than a wiki-roundup. That's dodgy.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict he's gonna have window lifter issues, power lock issues, water in the trunk and a dodgy airco.
But the engine witll turn! ;D
However, you may want to change the 210.000 mile timing chain before that.
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: raueda1 on 02 July 2020, 11:00 PM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 04 June 2020, 05:41 AM
Haha.  You guys are a riot!  :)

Well, after conferring with you fellas, my Dad, a few close friends, and myself, I've decided to pull the trigger.  I think Father offered some sound advice...."if you buy it make sure to get rid of something so you'll make room AND have a way to fund the 450se parts and repairs."  So, taking that advice to heart, I'll be letting go of a 1967 W108 250se as soon as I get new tires, drive it, and charge the A/C.  It won't bring in much of anything, but someone will get a mechanically sound W108. 

I already know the potential issues I'm going to face with the engine......it'll either need an engine or a top end and timing chain rebuild.....which snowballs into having a valve job done since the heads are off.  The only thing that annoys me about the car is that because it's a U.S. model it has those stupid catalytic converters under each exhaust manifold.....you know, the ones that always melt the rubber motor mounts every year?  Yeah, I'm going to want to get rid of that mess.  Now, I have a set of Euro manifolds, so no bog deal there, but then I'm going to have to find a set of header pipes.  There's that snowball affect again.  :/  BUT, if that's the worst of it, I'll be alright. 

I've already bought a pad of sticky notes.  haha  I'll just have to stick them anywhere my wondering OCD mind and hands may venture.  And Lucas, you're advice is sound.  It'll be to keep and enjoy, so the initial +/- $500 purchase price really is negligible.  And an ROI?  haha  Nah.  That's just not possible on most W116 cars.  I can definitely swing the purchase price...thankfully. 

So, in the coming weeks I'll start another post showing better, more detailed pictures of the car, as well as what I find to be the cause of the seized engine.  It'll be something fun and relatively easy to do since V-8 work is pretty fresh on my mind.  In the last year I've had to remove heads and front covers on four V-8 engines.  Apparently, people don't take heed to the 100,000 mile timing chain replacement intervals.  And then SNAP goes the chain and or rail(s), and bang bang bang goes the engine.
Well done!  The fun never ends.

A thought about the sticky notes -  I started using them for my recent project but they never suck well enough.  I ended up going through a few boxes of those stiff labels with twist-wires.  Some were on parts, others on parts needing to be torqued or whatever.  The car looked like some kind of bizarre Christmas present with the labels hanging off.  But it saved my butt and was really helpful.  Good luck with it!
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 04 July 2020, 03:13 AM
Well, I got the car home.  I spent the rest of the day on the engine.  It's as I suspected......the engine has seized.   I mean really bad.  I removed both cylinder heads, and ALL 8 cylinders had severe rust in them.  I have never seen anything like this.  Being a 1975 U.S. model, it has the secondary air injection on it for the catalysts.  When I remove the pipe from the air pump to the chain tensioner water came out of it.  I'm not sure how water got in the engine, and in all 8 cylinders. Even if I were able to free the engine, the cylinder walls are so bad/perforated with rust that it would destroy the piston rings.  So I'm going to have to put another engine in.  This is going to be fun. haha  But I knew the risks from the beginning. 
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: floyd111 on 04 July 2020, 04:56 AM
maybe it's been nose-first into a ditch or river at some time? then power-washed to sell?
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 04 July 2020, 03:34 PM
I don't see how........I mean, it sat in a garage for 15 or more years.  Before that it ran fine.  Go figure. 

I did wonder if someone might have squirted a water hose on the air pump while it was running.  This would definitely introduce water into the combustion chambers. 
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: floyd111 on 04 July 2020, 06:03 PM
..So would a river..
And.."it running fine"  sat in garage"'.. Tell me about people selling cars.. It brings out the worst people, and the worst IN people. That's why people like me always pay double. i am gullible and passionate enough to believe them, again and again, and not vicious enough to ever sell a car without telling the truth, or wanting someone else to "just get a good deal for once"
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: daantjie on 04 July 2020, 09:26 PM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 04 July 2020, 03:13 AM
Well, I got the car home.  I spent the rest of the day on the engine.  It's as I suspected......the engine has seized.   I mean really bad.  I removed both cylinder heads, and ALL 8 cylinders had severe rust in them.  I have never seen anything like this.  Being a 1975 U.S. model, it has the secondary air injection on it for the catalysts.  When I remove the pipe from the air pump to the chain tensioner water came out of it.  I'm not sure how water got in the engine, and in all 8 cylinders. Even if I were able to free the engine, the cylinder walls are so bad/perforated with rust that it would destroy the piston rings.  So I'm going to have to put another engine in.  This is going to be fun. haha  But I knew the risks from the beginning.

Hmm that sucks :-\  Is there an option to hone the cylinders or bore to oversize?  My rebuilding knowledge is non - existent pretty much so excuse me if this is a stupid tangent ;D
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: TJ 450 on 05 July 2020, 01:23 AM
Sounds like it's time for an engine tear down. Being an M117, oversize pistons/ rings should be available so if the damage is within any of the repair stages it should be good. The heads might be rotten though.

Tim
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: UTn_boy on 05 July 2020, 06:29 AM
So I removed both cylinder heads, and both are not corroded or rotten.  Something bad happened somewhere though.  When I drained the oil it was full of coolant.  Naturally the inside of the block was just as filthy/rusty. 

I have three spare engines here at home.  It'll be less costly to put new rings and bearing in one of the engines that isn't seized.  I suppose the original engine could be bored and fitted with new oversized pistons, but that'll be a last resort.  This block is really a boat anchor.  Though, if the rust/perforation in the cylinders is too bad the block could always be sleeved.  But again, that would be an expensive last resort.  I'm not concerned with keeping the original engine with the car, so I don't mind the engine having a different engine number from the original. 
Title: Re: 1975 450se.....should I?!
Post by: 1783pictures on 24 November 2020, 02:40 PM
Hi, what's the update on this car? I was reading through and came top the end with no real ending.  ;D