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Garage => Test Drive => Topic started by: oscar on 01 January 2010, 04:06 AM

Title: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 01 January 2010, 04:06 AM
Ever wonder what would've happened if the then independant AMG went from putting the W109 300SEL 6.3 on the track to then tweaking a 6.9 for racing.  I'd love to say "well that's what I'm going to build" but in reality, without the necessary funds or know-how, what I'd like to do is drop a 6.9 engine into an SE body and modify it to look like the fictional car.  The I'll go racing it.  But it's a side project and whilst ambitious I wouldn't be surprise if it takes many years to see a racetrack if ever. 

I've got the body (red 280S), picked up a 6.9 engine yesterday (in kit form :D ).  No FI in this thing, there'll be a custom cross ram duel holley setup and custom extractors.  Not sure what will be done to the internals of the engine and what has to be replaced, machined etc.  I think the body, suspension, brakes and steering will be ready before the engine and then there's the issue of the transmission and rear end.  Easiest would be to procure a 6.9 AT but preference would be a 5-6spd manual Tremec and still don't know what sort of rear end.  Might go live axle :o .  It's so far away to get to that point it's not worth worrying about.

The "Red Pig"
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1138/redpiginaction1964a6ee.jpg)

The "Red Hog"
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6833/impression2small.jpg)

The 6.9.  FWIW, we set the jib on the crane at 250kg and it easily handled the weight of not only this block but also the weight of Selfor50's other complete 6.9.
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/7539/imgp6601large.jpg)
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5439/imgp6602medium.jpg)

The body.  The red 280S which looked it's best in 2006 below.  Now it's stripped interior, partly stripped eninge bay, no brakes and covered in carpets and parts and dust.  Man the dust!! I can't actually get a new photo of it.
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4979/imgp1229mediumsmall.jpg) (http://img524.imageshack.us/i/imgp1229mediumsmall.jpg/)
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: s class on 01 January 2010, 04:25 AM
This 280S isn't going to know what happened to it!.  i hope your project does come to fruition. 
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: motec6.9 on 01 January 2010, 04:31 AM
Hi Oscar just for future reference i have bought a 6.9 that has been rear ended and is a rite off as im keen to put my 6.9 back on the road i will be puting the engine into my 6.9 till my engine is finished sometime later in the year . i will be taking parts of the wreck to keep if you want the sump tank let us know i dont have the storage space and after i have taken what i want it will go to the crushers. ps as my 6.9 has Motec injection i may be able to supply Goldie 2 k Jet. :)
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: motec6.9 on 01 January 2010, 08:13 AM
PS just for extra information in Sydney there is a Buisiness that sells adaptor plates to mount manual gear box's to 6.3 and 6.9's big-toys phone number 02 96380563 ;D
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: nathan on 01 January 2010, 09:29 AM
b-a-n-a-n-a-s!
that is crazy. but powerful. i think it shuold be in the org's commandments that any assistance necessary from members is rendered to oscar in his attempt to reach the promised land (not quite sure what is promised, but im sure its expensive and tiring!)
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: TJ 450 on 01 January 2010, 09:49 AM
That sounds like an outstanding project to me. Was the engine pulled down for transportation, or to get an idea of condition, or was it the one Cam was going to rebuild/mod?

I would go with the Tremec for a racer.

Is that a round base water pump?

Tim
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: s class on 01 January 2010, 11:27 AM
Well at least you've got the period helmet already....
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: koan on 01 January 2010, 02:22 PM
Good project oscar, think you should start on it right away.

I don't see any fog lights on your excellent sketch, these are essential to capture spirit of the machine.

koan
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 01 January 2010, 04:24 PM
Motec, I didn't realise you had a wreck but would definitely be interested in anything left over.  Part of the reason this engine was attractive was that I could work on it now and not have to worry about yet another body to get rid of nor wrestle with the prospect or guilt of killing a 6.9 450SEL that most of us might say "it could've been saved".  I've looked at Bigtoys.net a number of times over the years and Franz might very well be the person to do the MT.  It'll be years before I'm up to that point though.

TJ, this motor was a spare that selfor50 bought with his 6.9SE.  It was torn down as is beforehand. Man those exhaust valves are huge  :D   I still have to make room in the shed before I can properly lay everything out, bag n tag and start searching thru all the other 6.9 threads.   Part of me wants to just whack it together and test compression but another part of me wants to go thru the process of doing a full rebuild.  It's more than I can chew ATM but it was a joy to watch selfor50's 6.9SE do whatever it liked and not smoke.  Nothing on take off, nothing on overrun.  Not sure about the water pump, I'll get back to you.

sclass, that helmet was a bit of a fluke :D I had a different version of the red pig without a driver in front of me when drawing in the 116 helmet and the red was an after thought but it matches the 109 above it.  I think it's a must.

koan, I wrestled with the lights and front end.  How to make a bumperless 116 look good and purposeful without it looking naked and a wreck. It's a bit tuff since the double bumpers look so good.  I decided against the 'roo spot lights in the drawing and figured they wont be on the finished project.  I'm looking forward to making flared arches and the fromt spoiler.  Getting deep dish rims to fill the gap is going to be a problem. 




Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: SELfor50 on 01 January 2010, 07:18 PM
Great picture of the vision Oscar.  8)  Love it.

I'll be happy to help out with whatever I can to get this project on the track.  It'll be dope-izzlin.. :)

I personally reckon take your time though and do it properly.  Me thinks though, that once you start freshening parts up (like heads, manifold etc etc), and getting CAMS re-profiled etc... you'll get bitten and be ticking something off every month.  What about new pistons maybe?  You should be able to take a piston into a good engineering shop and they'll make an identicle set of forged ones for under $1K.  Same if you are going for higher revving cams.  Just take a valve spring in and get them to make one identicle with a harder spring rate etc.. All suggestions Mark gave me when I bought the engine originally.  The body part will probably be the easiest for you cause most of it you can do yourself i'd think.  Prepping, painting.. suspension etc..

I'd love to go manual, but even according to Franz he's said to me before that for these engine's there's  4 speed auto gearbox that can be used and gives great gear ratios.  Especially for racing.  With that modified and a ratchet shift kit installed would be the way to go I reckon.
My main concern being how much you would have to spend on the clutch kit to make it reliable with all that torque on tap.

What did you say about the rear end??   Live axle??!!  :o Ford 9"?
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 01 January 2010, 08:38 PM
I'll be happy to help out with whatever I can to get this project on the track. 

You too can help.  BSB and acct number is ....  :D :D  Kidding.

Will be definitely hitting you up for more info about what Mark's, done/did/knows and all the contacts in Capitown plus via MBSpares etc for grinds, reman springs perhaps too, that sort of thing.  I'm not going to entrust anything to anyone local that doesnt deal with this kind of thing day in, day out and probably outsources work anyway.  The home of Sumemrnats and a certain amount of wealth in town should mean the right people are there.  BTW, did you know Summernats held either it's first or one of it's early events in my town, then Narrandera before going to Canberra.  Can't find proof online, just read it in an old Unique Cars mag months ago.

Time wont be a problem, the bank balance will ensure that but I am keen to evaluate what needs doing, turn it over.  Still have povo to get up to scratch.

Manual / Auto, unless it's 2nd hand 6.9 auto it's going to cost thousands and it's an area I have NFI about so I'll have to hand it over to someone that's capable eventually.  But yeah, live axle and 9" diff... that'd be a wild ride  :D I remember 69ltr's finnie with live axle with c4 auto and windsor.  Inspisring stuff.  What's that one liner... Anything's possible, it's just a matter of adaptation.....and bank balance.
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 02 January 2010, 02:31 AM
Is that a round base water pump?

Is there any other type?

Here's pics of it.  Free spinning but pretty crusty impeller.

(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/4573/imgp6610small.jpg) (http://img693.imageshack.us/i/imgp6610small.jpg/)
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9424/imgp6611small.jpg) (http://img509.imageshack.us/i/imgp6611small.jpg/)
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8953/imgp6613small.jpg) (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/imgp6613small.jpg/)
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: s class on 02 January 2010, 03:02 AM
That looks like the very early type.  What's the engine number?
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: motec6.9 on 02 January 2010, 03:38 AM
Hi Oscar and Cam Star Motors in USA address 1694 Union Center Maine Hwy (Rt. 26) Endicott, NY 13760 Sales & Technical Support: 607-754-4272 Customer Service: 607-754-3918 FAX: 607-754-5112 Email: starmotors@stny.rr.com   (300sel.com) List hi performance Camshafts for M-100 Motors at US $900 They also have headers but they are for  6.3 and left hand drive so mods need to be done if purchased.  My wreck apparently is well known in Perth bought a couple of months ago from  guy in Perth hills Nathan Called it Goldie 2 now at Peter the Master Mechanics in Rockingham Ie Boogan Capital of OZ. :)
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 02 January 2010, 03:50 AM
thanks sclass, it's 100.985 22 004916

motec, thanks heaps for the link. I'll add that to faves.  I plan on making headers myself.  The 280 will be my testing platform to see if I can pull it off.  The 6.9 should be easier, it's only 4 cylinders ...times 2 :D But I had a close look at clearance in Cam's engine bay.  Not much room to play round with.
haha, glad to hear the bogan capital is in WA.

Here's a few more pics from today.  I unloaded it off the trailer, put it back on the stand.  I can turn it by hand with a bit of force and the bores I thought look ok like the first photo but have opposite wear spots which I assume they could be out of round by a smidgeon.  But one cylinder in particular, 2nd cylinder photo where it almost looks like pitting and a crack but it doesn't feel any different using my finger or fingernail across the surface. Weird.  Due to excessive heat perhaps?
There's a tiny lip at the extent of ring travel for each and a handful of the water channels are blocked like we've seen if a few other blocks.  However the heads have a couple of spots where pitting and corrosion of the alloy has occured on blanked channels.  These will get resurfaced before shaving, no biggie.  There seems to be a bit of room for boring out the cylinders.  With the oil stained crank and conrods etc, plus the question over roundness of the cylinders I want to stick to original plan.  Full strip, keep undoing it all and get it cleaned and machined  8) 

For now I have to put it away though.  Which leads me to ask, what would you guys do before storing it?  Just oil the cylinders, ATF maybe, then wrap it in plastic?  It's only going to be for a couple of months, maybe more.  Depends how much m100 knowledge I can soak up between now and when time permits to get stuck into pulling it apart.

(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6560/imgp6608medium.jpg) (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/imgp6608medium.jpg/)
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6136/imgp6609medium.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/imgp6609medium.jpg/)
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4784/imgp6606small.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/imgp6606small.jpg/)
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2710/imgp6607small.jpg) (http://img509.imageshack.us/i/imgp6607small.jpg/)(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/imgp6607small.jpg/1/w640.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img509/imgp6607small.jpg/1/)

Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: motec6.9 on 02 January 2010, 04:44 AM
It does look like a cracked bore but any good machine shop will be able to bore it out and put a sleve in .PS in Canberra best engine guy Greame Silk if you can get a booking if not go to Greg Tarlington at Pro Engines 18 Stephens Rd Queanbeyan as he likes to do one off's and i can vouch for his work very good. :)
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: TJ 450 on 02 January 2010, 04:53 AM
That's the very early round base water pump, not very common at all and still specific to the 6.9. 6.3 pumps are similar, but cast iron. I'm sure it can still be rebuilt if required.

It looks quite decent to me. The marks in the second pic are from water/coolant ingress, by the look of things. As for the mark in the vertical plane, it may well be a hairline crack, but hopefully not. I would imagine that could be checked out by a well equipped specialist.

The excess wear in the first pic isn't spectacular, but it will always be in that plane and probably isn't too bad.

I think you will always find that sort of wear in these engines. It would be an ideal time to rebuild it, but it all comes down to economics.

For preservation, I would saturate the piston tops and cylinders with WD-40 and stuff rags in each bore, where the pistons are not at TDC. I reckon it's much better to store an engine like this, than fully assembled.

Tim

Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 02 January 2010, 06:05 AM
Hmm bugger.  No drama really, if it's going to be rebored so be it, it'll be seen too. Does make me wonder why it happened in the first place.  Why that cylinder and not the others.  There was a guy a few years back from Texas I think that had a black 6.9.  Forgot his name now but he had something similar which was welded then rebored.  Don't know which repair would be better, sleeve or weld but based on the other marks there a sleeve would be better me thinks.  Thanks once again for the contacts motec  ;)

TJ, if only that impeller was stainless steel.  I think it will be ok once cleaned up a bit.  There's plenty of meat on there but plenty of rusty bits to knock off too.
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: motec6.9 on 02 January 2010, 06:07 AM
No Probs for a fellow Country Kid i grey up at Ariah Park NSW.
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 02 January 2010, 06:26 AM
 ;D Cool!  Been thru there a number of times.
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: TJ 450 on 02 January 2010, 06:32 AM
Actually, just looking at the pics, you should be able to get a reasonable idea of the condition of the pistons, by looking at the skirts underneath, when the pistons are at BDC.

The impeller is listed as a spare part in the EPC. I'm not sure about availability though. If it is the same as the square base pump, a used replacement could be sourced. I'm always impressed by the M-100 water pumps, in terms of engineering.

I think it will clean up.

Edit:

Here's a pic of the square based pump, from back in the day. My engine is ...12 1875. The pump must have been changed with the engine modifications, as it had the engravings that match the engine.

(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19451-4/In+Place+1.jpg) (http://gallery.w116.org/dl/19450-1/In+Place+1.jpg)

Tim
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: motec6.9 on 02 January 2010, 06:52 AM
yeah Nerrandera is a nice place i go to Griffith at least once a year as my Brother and Sister inlaw live there he is a wine maker :)
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: koan on 02 January 2010, 08:13 AM
I have the early style water pump on eng #005522, they were used up till 005889.

As far as storing goes use thick engine oil or grease, WD-40 and the like run away.

koan

Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 02 January 2010, 05:08 PM
yeah Nerrandera is a nice place i go to Griffith at least once a year as my Brother and Sister inlaw live there he is a wine maker :)

How good is that!
Did I mention I'm in Griffith specifically and drink wine, my new best forum buddy  ;D ;D ;D 
 :D Kidding, but next time you're over if you've got time you'll have to PM me and come and kick tyres, experience the power of a d-jet 350 8)

Koan, I was thinking the same thing too.  I've got a bulk pack of CRC 5.56 and liberally sprayed a can and then some all through it and noticed the next day it seemed to be too dry.

TJ, thanks for the info and the pic.  I've got to go all thru those old threads.  It'll all start to make sense now that things are starting to look familiar.
Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: SELfor50 on 02 January 2010, 05:28 PM
Damn.... That's shyte dude.  I hadn't got to the point of analysing the block / heads / engine in general.. cause I hadn't yet picked it up when I found the other one.  :(  I'll ask Mark if he knew about it, my guess would be the answer will be "no". 

A decent engineering shop should be able to fix it fine though.  Let me know if you need me to tee anything up with anyone up here.


Thanks for the contacts too motec6.9.  Appreciate it.  Will scope the performance M100 cams for sure.  8)

Title: Re: "Red Hog" my next project
Post by: oscar on 02 January 2010, 05:41 PM
Made me wonder if that was the reason for stripping it to begin with, but like I said, no biggie, it's going to get rebored and that'll be addressed at that time.