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Zak325 "build" thread

Started by zak325, 18 January 2016, 09:34 PM

zak325

Hey guys

Just picked up a 73 450SE and figured I should make an account on here to get easy access to some information

Going to start this off by saying most of you are going to hate me here because I'm going to ruin this car

Anyway, little about me... My name is Zak, I'm 17 from Pennsylvania. This isn't my first project, I also own a bagged 94 accord (pic below) and have been into cars since a young age. Just hoping for a little help around here as this is my first Benz and it's much different from my Honda




Anyway onto the car. Traded around 2000$ worth of stuff for it. 1973 450SE. 68k miles. Owned by a doctor since 73, however its been off the road since 02. I have all the service records and factory handbooks and such. Red leather interior. Exterior is in decent shape... overall 8/10 but the rust is starting, and the previous owner actually cut out the metal (around the side skirt area... not sure what to call that) and has templates made up to weld back in. not many dents which is good. Interior is decent but cut up also. carpet is bad however door panels and seats are relatively good. Dash is cracked. Haven't even hooked up a battery to play with the electrics yet.

The downsides- the floor is soaking wet on the drivers side. Hoping to address this ASAP but I got the car a few days ago and haven't gotten to it yet. Also the guy I bought it off of says it starts and runs good, however the gas tank is rusted out bad so he said it needs to be redone. He's given me the contact info of a guy to bring it to but it's being a real pain in the ass to pull, primarily because of the filler neck, I can't get it out.

Here's how it looks currently:




I found these in the trunk they look to be the same size as the headlights... Are they worth anything?




My plans for the car is to daily it. Seems like a nice luxurious ride while also I've read the engines are pretty durable. Mixed with decent fuel economy I feel like I'd be ok with driving it every day. I want it to look good though, I want it on the floor. I was thinking bags because of the way the suspension is set up it would be EASY to get it set up, but for a daily its not too practical. So I plan on cutting the springs, hopefully throwing on some Alphards or similar luxury wheel, maybe bentley wheels or something, and doing tints and that's that. Probably shaving some moldings and badges, little things... Should be easy. I'm gonna try and learn bodywork and paint myself on this car.. I wanna touch up the bad areas so it'll be a good learning experience. Anyway that's about all I have for now. Any tips on the gas tank would be great. I'm almost wondering if they welded the filler neck in AFTER they installed the tank. I'll mess with it a bit more yet and see if I can't figure it out.

UTn_boy

You may be despised by many for doing what you're wanting to do, but most of us on here don't judge.  The ones that do are usually smart enough to keep quiet. 

There won't be anything inexpensive about waking one of these beasts back up.  Plan on having more in the car than what's it's worth and/or what you paid for it.  Doing a lot of the work yourself certainly helps, but it's still costly. 

There are only a few reasons why you'd have water in the floor area you mentioned.  Either the front and/or rear glass seals are  leaking, or the firewall behind the firewall pad has rusted out.  If the firewall is the problem, then add in another 10-20 hours of time to be spent on the car.  I see it has no sunroof, so we can eliminate that concern. 

You can still order a brand new dash, but you'll have to dye it the color you want because the new dashes are only available in blue.  IN addition, you'll have to find/buy speaker covers that go on top of the dash in stead of down below.  The early dashes all had the speakers down below, and the new dash that is available has the speakers up top.  Cost of a new dash is around $700-$900.  If you find a good used one, leave it.  It'll crack when you try to take it out.  The best time to do the dash is when the windshield is out, as it's the only way to get the dash out and the new one in without ruining it. 

The gas tank is supposed to come out of the trunk.  the drivers side should be able to swing outward enough to allow for clearance of the filler neck. Are you absolutely certain that you've unhooked all of the fuel lines and the electrical connection for the sending unit?  Down below, you have to completely remove the supply line and/or the the strainer that it screws into.  Otherwise that connection won't clear the hole in the chassis.  If the car has been wrecked or if the chassis has shifted due to the amount of rust, getting the gas tank out can be a challenge because the geometry of the chassis won't be what it was when new, which can cause trouble in getting the gas tank in or out.  If the gas tank is rusted as bad as most that I've seen, then you'll have to source a used one.  Repairing isn't an option if the structural integrity is compromised, which is usually the case.  Try to find a gas tank out of a W116 chassis diesel.  They usually won't rust.  Just be sure to get the fuel gauge sending unit that goes with it, as it'll be different.  You'll have to also get the fuel gauge out of the instrument cluster, too. 

The headlights in your trunk are the standard run of the mill sealed beams that thousands of cars used back in the day.  Nothing special, and worth a dollar or two.  You can still buy new ones and auto parts stores. 

The engines are and can be very reliable......but therein lies the problem.  So many know this fact, and in the process neglect that proper upkeep.  The biggest weak point on these engines mechanically will be the timing chain, the chain rails, and the chain tensioner.  Also, the valve guides and valve stem seals are very weak, so it may need a valve job.  Being an early W116, you'l have the D-jetronic electronic fuel injection.  While this system is amazingly reliable, they do fail, and they also need proper upkeep.  D-Jetronic parts are hideously high in price.  The biggest areas of weakness are the fuel hoses that go between the fuel rails and the injectors.  They get old and leak, and a fire quickly erupts.  Make sure they're fresh rubber.  In fact, make sure all of the rubber fuel lines in the engine bay are fresh.  Other than that, the MPS (manifold Pressure Sensor) is/will probably go bad.  If it does, the only place that can rebuild them is Bosch in Germany.  (about $600)  There are a few places in the U.S. that CLAIM to be able to rebuild them, but they only test 3 parameters instead of the 8 parameters that the MPS has.  And last, in the bottom of the ignition distributor, there are a grouping of four sets of points.  Each set controls two of the injectors.  Remember, the injectors are electrically operated, not mechanically.  For short, we call these the "trigger points".  They, too, are prone to corrosion, wear, and getting dirty.  They can sometimes be cleaned, but usually not.  They're still available for around $400. 

Fuel economy is around 11-14 miles to the gallon.  So try not to have high hopes for any more without considerable loss of performance.   

When you get a chance, post a picture of the data card (usually in with the owners manual packet of goodies).  I'd like to see what all this car had regarding options, etc.  Best of luck, and I'll try to help where I can, but may be limited due to the nature of what your're wanting to do to the car, which I respect, mind you.  I can have respect and not approve at the same time. ;)    Hopefully some of the other fellas will chime in when necessary.  And ALWAYS remember......there is nothing in this world more expensive than a cheaply bought Mercedes.  ;) 
1966 250se coupe`,black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3,papyrus white/dark red leather
1975 450se, pine green metallic/green leather
1973 300sel 4.5,silver blue metallic/blue leather
1979 450sel 516 red/bamboo

zak325

Cost worried me going into this project and still does, however I think I will be able to make do

The leak- firewall has been dry so eliminating that. that just leaves the windows because youre correct theres no sunroof. I guess now is the time to get the hose out and see if i cant try and get water where it shouldnt be.

dash- i could care less about it honestly. from browsing along here throughout the week ive come to see that you Mercedes guys seem to do everything by the book it seems (not an insult) and oem parts and originality and keeping everything tidy seems to be one of the most important things. Im gonna let the dash go and just deal with it. it doesnt necessarily bother me that this car isnt in 10/10 condition and everything original and perfect like the day it left the showroom which seems to be what most of you like to go for.

the tank- ok that was my first thought was angle it out via the drivers side until it cleared. I will double check but i thought i got everything out. maybe a 2nd look would be best. thanks for the tip. I think il keep the oem tank and get it resealed, seems easier than trying to find a diesel tank.

the engine- thanks for the tips. was gonna do new oil, antifreeze, now new rubber hoses and maybe i should get to the timing stuff now while i have the chance and i have a base mileage for all the maintenance items. hoping those expensive sensors and etc ill get lucky with, at least for now. spending a ton all at once never goes right for me. there was a spare dizzy in the trunk im hoping that the previous owner had already dealt with those points you mentioned, although the aging may have still gotten to it.

ill take a look and share any cool info i find with you guys as i search through that owners manual

now another question... whats the easiest way to get an aux cord in one of these? if i remember right there isnt a tape player that i could use an adapter for, and putting a modern single din in there scares me, it wont flow at all an look ugly. worst case i could hide it in the glovebox? or is there some type of input in the back side of the factory radio that could somehow adapt to an aux cord? i cant not have music in the daily

Beastie

#3
UTn_boy has set you up nicely, there. Not much more to add. My advice for the cracked dash would be to buy one of those carpet dash mats and just cover it. I use one in my car to hide the cracks. It's significantly cheaper and about a million times easier than replacing the dash. Really, replacing the dash in one of these is not a nice job at all.

These cars do a pretty good job of ruining themselves by rusting from the inside out so I'm personally not too bothered by the fact that you're going to a ruin a nice early low mileage example... Maybe a little bothered. But hey, if these cars were truly inherently valuable and desirable yours wouldn't have sat for 14 years with no love and no action. At least you're going to drive it, daily, which is exactly what they were built for.

As far as aftermarket wheels go, try a google image search for AMG Pentas which are popular among owners of these cars. If you must have something larger than 17 or 18 inches maybe try looking at AMG monoblocks. The good 'ol BBS style rims are also popular. I searched those Alphard rims and I'm not too sure they'd suit the car. IMO, modern looking wheels don't always suit older cars. The choice is yours, though, obviously.

The demand for these cars isn't very high but most of the people who buy them are older gentlemen who remember them from when they were young. They couldn't afford one back then (or maybe weren't even quite old enough to drive them yet) but they can afford to buy one now and take it on as a project. Typically, based on my experience, they're the kind of guys who really like originality; the original paint, books, the original spare wheel still in the boot, all of that sort of stuff. "He never drives it - he just rubs it with a diaper." So beware that if you do ruin the car as you intend, it may be very difficult to find someone who wants to buy it if you ever want to sell it on.

If you have to ask about the fuel economy it's higher than you want it to be.

Really dig in there around the firewall, behind the sound deadening mat. Poke and push and prod and peel. At the side of the firewall, near the A-pillar. There's just bound to be rust there. Grass is green, water is wet and W116's rust at the firewall.




Anyway, do keep us posted on your progress. I'll be interested to see what you discover as you go, and I'm curious to see how it'll look once you're done. And if you don't mind, post a lot of photos of it in its current state for all of us old fusspots to pour over and obsess about. It looks like it's somewhat of a basic spec car (short wheelbase, no sunroof, standard wheels with hubcaps... I don't even think it has metallic paint) but the original owner obviously didn't mind specifying one of the biggest and most expensive options available - the  M117 engine. I picture the original owner as a very sensible man in a big, big hurry.

Oh! By the way, if you're ditching the wheels, those hubcaps could be sold on ebay for... I dunno, maybe a hundred, two hundred, somewhere around there depending on condition.
1979 280SEL

"She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro."

UTn_boy

The firewall maybe dry, but that doesn't mean there isn't a gaping rust hole behind the firewall insulation pad.  As Beastie said, peel the ends back away from the firewall and have a look.  One of the most common areas to rust is around where the fuse box attaches to the firewall. 

And no, not all of us do everything by the book.  The book is only a guide anyway.  Granted, torque specifications and numbers are usually adhered to.  Sometimes it's not feasible or not possible to go by the book due to lack of parts availability, or maybe someone wants to improve upon an original design.  If the dash doesn't bother you that bad, then buy a velour carpet dash cover, or even one of the aftermarket plastic covers that glues on. 

Regarding the tank, I was saying that your tank may not be repairable.  When they rust, they rust badly.  I've seen two or three recently that were so rusted that they literally rusted in half.  This usually happens around the edge of where the fuel level stopped.  However, if it's only got solidified fuel in the bottom of it and a few crumbs of rust, then simply empty it, soak the inside with 2-3 gallons of methyl ethyl ketone (bought at Lowe's or Home Depot), sloch it around for 2-3 hours, drain, repeat if necessary, and finally pressure wash the inside with a pressure washer.  Afterward, set it in the sun all day to dry and you'll be good to go.   Though, I doubt that the fuel gauge sending unit will be any good.  They all seem to go bad.  New ones are expensive, but available, and I'm sure a good used one is among the group here somewhere. 

OK, the radio question.  If you have a Becker Mexico cassette, which you shouldn't, then all bets are off for an easy addition of an auxiliary connection.  If you happen to have a Mexico cassette, Becker Auto Sound can install an aux jack in the face plate, or run it out on a cord.  You just have to send the radio to them.  It works very well.  I use these myself!  :)   Given the year of the car and seeing how it seems to be a pretty basic optioned model, you should have a Becker Europa II, or a Grand Prix.  In these two models, there is, in fact, an auxiliary plug in the back of it.  Go to this link to buy the aux cord: www.ebay.com/itm/261994134814?item=261994134814&viewitem=&vxp=mtr.   this should get you what you need.  The fellas that sell these are Tom and Ed at Becker Auto Sound in New Jersey.  Here is their website:  [urlhttp://beckerautosound.com/home/2865209][/url].  They can answer any question you have.  You can also buy brand new speakers from them for your car, too!   If their prices scare you off, and you don't mind waiting on parts to arrive, then buy from Konigs in Germany.  They, too, should have most of what all you'll need.  Their website is:   www.koenigs-klassik.de/
1966 250se coupe`,black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3,papyrus white/dark red leather
1975 450se, pine green metallic/green leather
1973 300sel 4.5,silver blue metallic/blue leather
1979 450sel 516 red/bamboo

gavin116

For the radio, this is the simplest solution (cheap, quick to install and hidden), used on my car and very happy, just need a converter - old iPod to new iPod flat reversible connector.


http://www.amazon.com/iSimple-IS77-Universal-iPhone-Radios/dp/B002IY598O
1979 450SE "Mrs White"
2022 Touareg-R 3.0TSi Hybrid
[url="http://forum.w116.org/test-drive/my-first-w116-here-at-last/"]http://forum.w116.org/test-drive/my-first-w116-here-at-last/[/url]
[url="http://forum.w116.org/the-org/british-near-london-meet/msg97613/#msg97613"]http://forum.w116.org/the-org/british-near-london-meet/msg97613/#msg97613[/url]

rumb

I don't believe you can seal these gas tanks, as inside the tank there is a filter ring around the gas pick-up area.  if you seal the tank, then you also seal the only path of gas to the output area. If you get to that point, I have a useable extra gas tank. search here or google and you should be able to find pictures of this issue.

Look at my thread "my 6.9's" I just posted a picture of the rust hole that leads to water in the car on the driver's side. poke around in the corner by the fuse box and also in the wheel well and you will probably find your rust hole.

'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

UTn_boy

Gavin, how does this kit you referenced hook up to a Becker radio? I don't see any round multi-pin plugs that would go into the Becker aux input. 
1966 250se coupe`,black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3,papyrus white/dark red leather
1975 450se, pine green metallic/green leather
1973 300sel 4.5,silver blue metallic/blue leather
1979 450sel 516 red/bamboo

gavin116

Hi Aaron


The iSimple is a quick and easy way to attach a MP3 type player to any radio that uses an analogue signal, so not Becker specific.  The iSimple plumbs in between the antenna and the radio, and you merely dial the radio in to the selected frequency to hear what is playing on the iPod/iPhone/MP3 player.  This model the Tranzit 77 is able to support charging of the playback device at the same time.  I think this is what Zak wants to do?


I have also attached a picture of the view into my petrol tank to illustrate what Rumb means when he mentions there may be problems if re-caoting the inside of the tank.


Hope this is helpful.
1979 450SE "Mrs White"
2022 Touareg-R 3.0TSi Hybrid
[url="http://forum.w116.org/test-drive/my-first-w116-here-at-last/"]http://forum.w116.org/test-drive/my-first-w116-here-at-last/[/url]
[url="http://forum.w116.org/the-org/british-near-london-meet/msg97613/#msg97613"]http://forum.w116.org/the-org/british-near-london-meet/msg97613/#msg97613[/url]

ptashek

Quote from: UTn_boy on 19 January 2016, 08:25 AM
Gavin, how does this kit you referenced hook up to a Becker radio? I don't see any round multi-pin plugs that would go into the Becker aux input.

There's also this, as an option: http://www.outofsightaudio.com/mark-iii.html
Entirely hidden, practically zero interference with the original setup, and should work with any modern Bluetooth audio enabled device.
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

Casey

Welcome to the forum, Zak.  The red interior is the rarest color - are your seats leather or vinyl?  I just acquired a 1973 450SE with a red interior myself, but with white paint.  Surprised your interior isn't also black as was usual with black painted cars.  Whatever you decide to do with the car - it is yours to do with as you please, and plenty of us here will be happy to assist as far as we are able with the things you keep OEM.  I am in Maryland myself and there are other enthusiasts nearer you in Pennsylvania, so worst case you should have some resources within a reasonably close distance.

The 1973 model is fantastic - that year had smaller bumpers like the european versions, and did not yet have catalytic converters or other emissions restrictions which reduced the power of the engine, so properly-tuned, you should see a full 200hp from it.  Mercedes changed a bunch of stuff in 1976, and in general, I think the older versions were better.  There are some exceptions where they are more difficult to deal with, and the parts are harder to find than their newer counterparts, but it's worth it.

Please understand that all the rubber on the car is going to be in dire shape and needing replacement.  Although it has low mileage, age is what matters to the rubber.  This will cost you more than the car did, but you can do it bit by bit.  Perhaps most important are the front and rear windshield gaskets, and the tail light seals.  Then there is the trunk seal and door seals.  Buttoning those up will make your cabin waterproof (important!!) and eliminate wind noise from the doors.  Next you need to work on replacing bushings in the suspension (e.g. control arms), motor mounts, and anything with a rubber boot (tie rods, axles, etc.).  You will surely need some new rubber connectors for the vacuum lines to replace the ones you have which will be hard and leaky, which influence the workability of everything from the door locks to proper engine/transmission function.  Find somebody who understands Bosch D-Jet fuel injection to see to the engine; one thing that is very critical is to replace all the little rubber fuel lines which are hiding under your air filter housing (easy to remove).  They get rock hard and brittle at this age, and are prone to cracking with engine vibration.  When they do, gasoline sprays out onto the hot engine and you will have an engine fire - you really don't want that.

It can be quite costly to set everything right, but it is well worth it to do so, as long as your intent is to enjoy the car, not resell it turning a profit.  Also be prepared to be frustrated by mechanics and others (e.g. glass replacement places) that do not understand how to work on these cars properly - you will end up having to teach them what to do or undertake many jobs yourself.  Really, it is a joy of a car to do your own work on, however at this age things can be rather stuck and brittle and broken - it can be frustrating to start what should be a simple job, then realizing you need some more parts that you have to hunt down and order and wait on - as long as you have a garage to keep it in and another car to drive when this happens it's no big deal though.

Good luck with your endeavors and keep us updated!

revilla

#11
Welcome to the forum Zak.

For water ingress, there are tons of posts to help you search the usual suspect leak spots.

There's a recent thread with great info here:  http://forum.w116.org/interiors-and-exteriors/windshield-seal-nightmare/60/

[It was started by Harv who's also in PA USA.  By the way Harv, car waterproof yet?  We have no news since your last post on miracle paint.]

Do not rule out the firewall yet.

I wrote the following summary that you can use to start chasing those drops.

Good luck, and yes, please keep us posted on the progress of your project.  Pics are very welcome here.

***********

I spent many (many) weeks hunting for water drops in my cars.  Both suffered from the same leaking areas.  So I share my experience with you in case it can help you. 

- area under fusebox.  solution:  sealed up.  added an epoxy water barrier next to fusebox (all its length, fender side) and drilled a hole right under hood cable entry point so water could drain out before getting below fusebox.  Not an orthodox solution but effective otherwise.  key was to seal under fusebox and avoid water to get there in 1st place.  I know there are drain tube but they were so plugged and inefficient that I opted for the non-original drain pass instead.

- 4 screws outside of pillar A (left and right side)  There's the chrome piece, a metal piece in the center in body color and a rubber seal underneath.  All 4 screws were rusted  and rubber piece broken.  solution:  4 new screws, new rubber piece and sealed up with windshield sealant.

- rubber accordion between pilot door and A pillar.  they were all broken letting water in slipping on top of vacuum hoses and motor wires.

- rubber grommet in firewall for wipers motor cable.  solution:  new grommet.  available at MB back then.  cheap/easy.  As you are there you can seal up the other rubber pieces located in wipers motor chamber.(also called water box, under chromed grill)

- front window windshield rubber seal both lower corners.  seal beyond its useful life.  solution:  new seal, still available new, but careful there are cheap after market brands to avoid, tons of non-setting sealant between body channel and rubber seal.

- rubber piece in firewall for hood/bonnet cable entry.  new rubber piece with sealant.

The one under fusebox was the MOST challenging to find/fix as it was little and required disassemble of knee panels (3) and parking break metal structure for visibility and room to repair.

water ingress was mainly through pilot (left) area and it managed to pool under pilot seat, rear side, front of passenger bench.

Not your case, but I also had leaks in rear glass seal and trunk/boot channel seal.  Both now fixed with new seals and fixed rusted areas. 

revilla

Nicely written Beastie :)


The demand for these cars isn't very high but most of the people who buy them are older gentlemen who remember them from when they were young. They couldn't afford one back then (or maybe weren't even quite old enough to drive them yet) but they can afford to buy one now and take it on as a project. Typically, based on my experience, they're the kind of guys who really like originality; the original paint, books, the original spare wheel still in the boot, all of that sort of stuff.


This put a smile in my face as I felt identified as probably many forum members here.




Casey

Quote from: Beastie on 19 January 2016, 01:23 AM
As far as aftermarket wheels go, try a google image search for AMG Pentas which are popular among owners of these cars. If you must have something larger than 17 or 18 inches maybe try looking at AMG monoblocks. The good 'ol BBS style rims are also popular. I searched those Alphard rims and I'm not too sure they'd suit the car. IMO, modern looking wheels don't always suit older cars. The choice is yours, though, obviously.

I had a set of BBS's up for sale (http://forum.w116.org/shop/for-sale-bbs-wheels-16'-7'-and-8'-width/), but as they aren't generating any interest at this point in time, and since I got a 450SE with a red interior, I think I will use them on that car instead of selling them.

QuoteAnyway, do keep us posted on your progress. I'll be interested to see what you discover as you go, and I'm curious to see how it'll look once you're done. And if you don't mind, post a lot of photos of it in its current state for all of us old fusspots to pour over and obsess about. It looks like it's somewhat of a basic spec car (short wheelbase, no sunroof, standard wheels with hubcaps... I don't even think it has metallic paint) but the original owner obviously didn't mind specifying one of the biggest and most expensive options available - the  M117 engine. I picture the original owner as a very sensible man in a big, big hurry.

Well, weren't hubcaps the only option in 1973?  Metallic paint is rubbish in my opinion, since it requires a clearcoat which ends up peeling.  Standard paint is much easier to detail and wax to perfection even 40+ years later.  My 1973 is similar - lacking even cruise control or a cassette player.  The original owner was a "Ramsleur Oil Company" in South Carolina, with the registration held by a woman with the last name of "Ramsleur" for the first 25 or so years of it's life.  Always interesting to think about the personalities that drove our cars in their pasts...

Harv

Quote from: revilla on 19 January 2016, 03:05 PM
There's a recent thread with great info here:  http://forum.w116.org/interiors-and-exteriors/windshield-seal-nightmare/60/

[It was started by Harv who's also in PA USA.  By the way Harv, car waterproof yet?  We have no news since your last post on miracle paint.]


In a holding pattern. The diesel won't crank when it get's super cold out. Don't have a block heater so I just drive my Land Rover. Will update soon.

Zak, where in PA are you?
1980 300SD
1983 240D
2000 E55 AMG
2002 G500