Your advice needed. To scrap or restore. A penny for your thoughts

[Jed]

Hello all,
I asked for some guidance in another post and Floyd111 was kind enough to make some useful suggestions. I am wondering if there are any other opinions on what to do with my '76  6.9.  I have been able to get it running this week well enough to drive it on the lift and get her up in the air.  It is not pretty but I am pretty sure it can be done.  I am thinking of doing a functional rustoration simply removing whatever rust I can and welding in replacement sections from a parts w116 I have (after I learn to weld)
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. thanks
jed

[daantjie]

The dreaded tin worm strikes again
Jed, check out thread from "wbrian63" on the M100 site. Think he might post on here as well, not sure. He is doing a full frame off restore on a 6.9. Maybe try and PM him to get his thoughts. Some of the rust seems to have eaten into the subframe which is a worry and might make repair a tough proposition.

[daantjie]

Yup do a search for "6.9 restoration" here on this site's search function and his thread pops up.

[Jed]

I just spent the last hour reading his 11 page thread complete with tons of photos on the M100 site.  OMG.  I can't believe how brave he is...he is my hero.

  I don't think I could muster up enough time or skill to do what he has done.  I think I will try to get it mechanically sound; engine,brakes, suspension assuming no major surprises and if I can make her road worthy I would love to feel the difference between my late model 6.9's and this earlier euro version. Hopefully the frame won't crack in half doing 80 on the highway.  From there, if I fall in love, I will start cutting and pasting in new metal without the full tear down. 

[floyd111]

That would be an OK idea, if you can avoid having to spend the same money twice, later on.
Also, driving it in half a good condition can lead to breakdowns, towtrucks, fees and misery.
Third, if your car isn't watertight, you could have future water getting into the firewall, dash, and other expensive places.
That may ruin parts that would normally not require changes.

Looking at your car, it sure looks lovely! Love the color, and the interior seems pretty fit as well.
But, interiors can be swapped, and your car WILL need a re-paint at some point.
Both factors are therefore no reason to keep this car

If you really want to be driving a 6.9, and you are not even considering a concourse restoration, have a good look at all the car's expensive and NLA parts. The engine block, all the chrome, and all the plastic and wooden trim. Options, seats, upholstery, accessories.. SLS-system.
If you find that these are worth saving, it may be an idea to find yourself a butt-ugly, cheap 6.9 somewhere, or even better,  a regular , ugly, cheap w116 xxxSEL chassis with hard metal. Then, swap all the goodies to the resprayed chassis. Then, sell off whatever you have left in parts to recoupe some of your expenditures. Buy new rubbers, seals, hoses, gaskets, grommets, rivets, all around. Have external engine components refurbished instead of buying new. Shop wisely and bulk where possible. Use OEM where required and aftermarket when you can.
In the end, you will find yourself with a very goodlooking 6.9 at an affordable price, that will drive safely without breaking down every corner.
It will probably cost more then what the car is worth, no doubt, but it should not set you back 25-35.000usd, a figure that you may easily end up paying if you do not go about systemetically, while halfway falling in love, or simply halfway deciding to dig yourself in completely, because you already dug yourself in that deep.
That totally sounds like that could happen to me, btw..(if not already)

[oversize]

Why spend money on it if the chassis is toast?  Go for a quick drive to satisfy your need and then assess the rust properly.  The body IS the chassis in these cars and if they're badly rusted, safety will be compromised.  If you can't do it properly I'd be using it for parts and finding a better one.

Having to repaint a car is no reason to sell it; but severe rust is....

[shaggy]

Given that visible rust is a small percentage of the metal that will need to be cut out, I think the decision makes itself?

Learning to weld is a noble endeavour and since I bought my own MIG a few years ago I've gone through countless square metres of sheet metal, welding everything from trucks to rotovators, and fair to say I've saved myself thousands of euros. It's a strangely addictive pastime and you can spot welding junkies by the burns on their arms and the holes in their socks.

However, it's probably best to cut your teeth on door bottoms and wheel-arches before progressing to more structural repairs. Recently, when I acquired a rare V12 Series 1 Jaguar Vanden Plas saloon with similar rust to your 6.9, I knew it was a no-no and got rid ASAP. Of course, it also depends on factors like climate, time, money, space, health and so on...

[ptashek]

I will second what everyone else is saying. Unless you are confident you can do this on your own, there's probably no point to it.
As someone who's currently getting their car restored by a professional, I can tell you straight up that doing it the right way accounts for thousands of man-hours in labour, and thousands in parts. You can check my restoration thread to get an idea of what the initial condition of my car was, and compare to yours.

You can do it on a shoe-string budget (fibreglass + miracle paint) but it will just come back to haunt you in a year, two or five. And it might kill you in the meantime if something structural isn't repaired the right way.

I'd say, part it out and find a sound chassis for a transplant.

[shaggy]

http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/837998617.htm?ca=4_s

Here's a rough looking 6.9.
The price looks steep but I suppose they're getting rare.

[rumb]

Look at Jed's signature, he has 2 other 6.9's.

To me it's hard to tell from the pictures how extreme the rust is. It does look pretty bad. So I think it has to be up to Jed if he wants to really go down that path.  It will be long and a lot of hard work to fix the metal. Need to question whether spending several thousand dollars just to be able to drive a euro, when you still have a rust bucket is the right path.

The chassis I am stripping I think a bit better than this one, and I am junking it.

[Casey]

The car has a couple rare options in the center console it seems...that steering wheel is not original but is from a much earlier (1972 probably) W116.  Does in really have blue carpets and seatbacks, but black door panels, or is that a trick of the light?  The color of the door panel fabric also does not appear to match the seats, so I wonder how much modification has been done to this car.  The front door panels have been cut into, along with the door frame metal underneath, to accommodate aftermarket speakers.  It does not have the euro headlights or bumpers intact, and I can almost guarantee that if you take the chrome trim above the tires off you will find a giant rust hole underneath each one given how rusty the rest of the car is.

You can save it but it will cost a pretty penny.  If it were US-spec I would say no.  Personally I find rust repair way too scary to undertake, especially when it's this extensive.  But there are only so many euro-spec 6.9's imported to the US so that may be incentive.  If you don't care about originality (noting that this car has been modified to some degree and getting it back to original shape will also be costly), you may want to buy a real nice rust-free 450SEL from the west coast, and swap this drivetrain and suspension in.  Or if you have more money and want less work, swap the engine into a US-spec 6.9 to get additional power - I have a rust-free '77 US 6.9 chassis with the (damaged) engine removed, which would make a great candidate for this - it is silver with blue interior, but I have sold the seats and carpets already...the rest is intact and the car is in overall great condition.  If you are interested send me a PM and we can discuss details, but it could be a good and inexpensive option for you.

[wbrian63]

My car looked WAY better than yours does before I started.... That should tell you most everything you need to know.

Transplanting the euro drivetrain into a rust free chassis will be far less expensive than attempting what I've done.

My actual "out of pocket" expenses (materials, welding wire and welding gas) are probably <$1,000. Apparenly, in this calculation, my time is worth $0.00. The value of what I have learned (both in skillset, and the ability to differentiate work that is worth doing from work that is not) is - in my opinion - priceless.

As an aside - I have a friend that restored a 1958 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz. Found the car in a field with the proverbial tree growing up through the driver's floorboard. By the time he had finished the restoration, the car looked truly showroom fresh. Won several national awards from the Cadillac LaSalle club. He eventually sold the car for around $100k. I asked him if he made "any money" on the transaction. He said that the job paid about $.25 (25 cents) per hour... He's a real dead-pan fellow - never could tell if he was kidding or serious.

For my efforts, when I eventually sell - way down the road - if these cars in #2 condition (I don't think #1 is achievable for this particular 116 given my skillset) fetch >$50k, I'd still be in the loss column...

But then there's the journey - more than half the fun of getting there, far as I'm concerned.

Unless you're stuck on making this one year-perfect, take Casey up on his offer. Also - no offense meant towards Casey - he does know solid from rust-riddled, but I am of the opinion that "There is no such thing as a rust-free W116. There are  only cars where the rust has not yet been found."

There are some interesting options - looks like there's an outside temp gauge, a Webasto heater control and a selection dial for a Kurier traffic warning system. Quite well-appointed. The console is also period-correct - early W116's didn't have wood. The mix of interior materials is interesting - certainly not stock.

BTW - what's the VIN? Mine is #521.

[Casey]

Also - no offense meant towards Casey - he does know solid from rust-riddled, but I am of the opinion that "There is no such thing as a rust-free W116. There are  only cars where the rust has not yet been found."

You are certainly correct, I agree it is only possible for one of these cars to be truly 100% free of any rust even surface corrosion if recently and fully stripped down and restored.  I almost edited my original post to add a disclaimer after "rust-free" in parenthesis.  I am sure if you dig deep enough you can find at least some surface corrosion somewhere on the car.  But it does not have anything obvious and the usual places are undamaged, and the underside of the car looks to be in surprisingly good shape.

But then there's the journey - more than half the fun of getting there, far as I'm concerned.

I wholeheartedly agree.  It is wonderful to come out on the other side of a difficult and challenging journey.  But if you are not certain about coming out on the other end, it may not be worth the risk of starting.  I have made that mistake and it sucks.

[Jed]

Gentleman,
Thank you all for your thoughts. All good advice.  Not what I was wanting to hear but I think that is why I asked...

I dont know what I am going to do yet but I will take it out for a spin if I can make it road worthy enough for a rip on a quite road. (suspension came right up when I started it, brakes seems OK in the shop)The idea of a transplant into a solid body would certainly be less work in the long run. (I will keep yours in mind casey)

Casey, FWIW, the door panels have large, stock appearing ash trays built into them, front and rear, no speakers. All panels and seats match and are in remarkably good condition.  It IS a trick of the light, door panels are dark blue, like the dash (lots of cracks) and the seat backs.  IMHO I think it is all stock, possibly unusual due to the early build date.

Brian, I think you said it best:
"My car looked WAY better than yours does before I started.... That should tell you most everything you need to know."
Also, the build # is 484.  Perhaps this accounts for some of the unusual interior features.  Please expand on what you mean by "the mix of interior materials"?  From what I have been able to research I believe these early models had the plastic/vinyl center console in black and also had the horizontal wood trim on the dash? no?
Notice the map reading light built into the exterior of the glove box door? strange? There are also flexible reading lamps in the back seat on each side that replace the usual lights in the C pillars (one is broken)

Again, thanks for your valuable opinions...we will see what the weekend brings.

Jed

[Casey]

I dont know what I am going to do yet but I will take it out for a spin if I can make it road worthy enough for a rip on a quite road. (suspension came right up when I started it, brakes seems OK in the shop)The idea of a transplant into a solid body would certainly be less work in the long run. (I will keep yours in mind casey)

I will get some pictures of mine this weekend for you, in case you end up wanting it.  I agree with your plan to ensure the soundness of the drivetrain and suspension.  It will probably sound terrible with the damage to the exhaust that exists, so don't be put off by that.  I would prefer to keep the suspension components currently on my 6.9 if I did sell it, which would allow me to let it go for very little.    The biggest expense would probably be transportation.  Since it's stock interior color was blue, it would be a good match for the interior you already have, particularly if you believe it to be stock.  The seats in mine were originally leather - the door panels are in great shape but have the panel inserts that matched the leather seats.  If your door panels have cracking at the top, the inserts can be changed between, so you could put your inserts into

Casey, FWIW, the door panels have large, stock appearing ash trays built into them, front and rear, no speakers.

I don't believe those were a stock option, though a list of the option codes from your car would help be certain of that (can be found on the metal plate under the hood in front of the radiator).  I have never seen them before, but it is interesting, and I would like to see more pictures of them.  I know that in certain W116's where a cellular phone component filled up the space where the ashtray normally goes, Mercedes would put an ashtray farther down behind the shifter and instruments on the center console.  This wouldn't make sense for your car though since it does have the usual front ashtray, so I believe the door ashtrays must have been a later addition.  On the bright side, that means that the metal underneath the panels should be undamaged.

All panels and seats match and are in remarkably good condition.  It IS a trick of the light, door panels are dark blue, like the dash (lots of cracks) and the seat backs.  IMHO I think it is all stock, possibly unusual due to the early build date.

I do not believe the steering wheel to be stock.  It's an early prototype only found on some 1972 models, as far as I'm aware.  It also appears that there is a light on the bottom of the glove compartment door - that's not stock either.  It looks like while your interior is blue, the velour material on the seats is anthracite grey (I have the same in another 6.9, but it has black seatbacks and the rest of the interior parts are black as well).  I wouldn't imagine that Mercedes would put grey velour in with blue trim, but it is possible that either it the velour skins were added later, or perhaps they were originally blue and have badly faded?

From what I have been able to research I believe these early models had the plastic/vinyl center console in black and also had the horizontal wood trim on the dash? no?

That is correct.

Notice the map reading light built into the exterior of the glove box door? strange? There are also flexible reading lamps in the back seat on each side that replace the usual lights in the C pillars (one is broken)

That is not stock either, I don't believe.  Got a picture?  I'm always interested in unusual things added to these cars even if not stock.  Some years of Jaguars had a very interesting flexible chromed steel reading light, and I have seen those installed in W116's before.  I have a couple but have never put them to use.

I have never seen the particular collection of options you have in your center console together before, but it looks stock.  What is the black thing below the gauges?  If I am seeing things correctly, it looks like you also have a switch on the center console for early-style cruise control - I have the same in a 1974 450SE.  I'd expect you also have the early-style stalk on the left of the wheel along with a small metal petal to the left of the brake for operating the windshield washer.  The seat belts are early-style (warning, the back buckle pieces almost always fall apart as the black plastic becomes brittle with age).  So all-in-all, the options on the car all appear to be consistently early-style (not at all a bad thing).

I'd love to have the Webasto heater option and those center console gauges!