Hi Everyone,
While checking timing chain stretch (about 9 degrees at the crankshaft, so time for a new chain and sprockets) I noticed this:
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25189-4/IMGP0672.JPG) (http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25185-2/IMGP0672.JPG)
The camshaft obviously needs replacing but this is a euro motor so I'm not sure how easy it will be to source the correct cam in australia. What will happen if I just put in an aussie spec cam? Do the cams on either side have to match? Will I need to replace all the rockers as well? Is it worth looking for a second hand one or should I try and find a new one?
Also, to my inexperienced eyes that looks like a fairly worn lobe. Will this have caused any damage to the valve or cylinder?
Thanks!
Any competent machine shop can build that lobe back up.
That's pretty worn. Aus cams are different, so you would need to source a pair.
I don't think that cylinder would have run very well, but it's probably OK.
Tim
It's a 1978 Euro model. I have two australian mechanical injection engines lying around that I can grab cams off but they're both fairly high mileage motors (around 300-400k) are the cams going to be any good? Given that it's a euro motor, can I just put the Australian cams in? From what TJ said, I would have to do the pair, right?
If I was going to do a swap, would I have to make sure to swap all the rockers as well, or can I just swap the cams?
I suppose it depends on how pedantic you are, we have lots of self-serve wreckers in melbourne with W116s now, and its easy to differentiate the aus ones from the euro ones. I'd be just picking up a used cam and rockers and install that.
In fact I've seen a local euro place here do exactly that with a poorly running 380SEL W126 and it gave the car a new lease on life and smoothed it right out.
You'd need to get the camshaft part number off your original one and make sure you get the same one. If you have a number of them to choose frome, take a vernier caliper and buy the one with the least wear.
Remember to change the cam oiler kit with you fit the new cam, as this is the only reason, as best as I can tell, that the lobes wear down, when the cam-oiler fails.
I.
Just to be clear, the cam oiler is the pipe running along the top which feeds oil the the camshaft mounts?
Unless the aus spec cams on the engines I already have are particularly worn, I think I'll just replace the euro cams with those.
Quote from: Jakob on 07 February 2010, 02:01 AM
Just to be clear, the cam oiler is the pipe running along the top which feeds oil the the camshaft mounts?
Unless the aus spec cams on the engines I already have are particularly worn, I think I'll just replace the euro cams with those.
Jakob, depending on the fate of my race car (which at this point it looks like it'll be pulled down and parted out), I will have a set of Euro CAMS available.
They're off a 78 Euro import as well.. The car definitely still goes hard so I think you'd be pretty happy with the CAMS, other thing is.. you could get the specs for the Euro CAMS and take the specs to a workshop that does re-grinds etc.. and they should be able to re-produce them.
And yep, the oiler pipe runs along the top. The M117 has plastic oil rails from memory, swap those at the same time too.. they're pretty cheap.
Is there anything else to consider with the Euro cams?? Would the valve springs be different at all??
Can anyone clarify where exactly the part numbers for the cams are located? On inspection of one of the spare engines, the camshaft looks to have exactly the same part number as the one on the car. I suppose it's possible that I have a spare euro engine, or that someone has replaced the camshafts in my engine with australian ones already.
Does anyone know the parts number for the australian or the european camshafts?
The parts number on the side of the cam, between the last two lobes (facing the engine) is 116 051 4901 for both cams. The only difference I can see is that on the non sprocket end of the cam there is P 01 stamped on the euro(?) cam and X 01 stamped on the Australian cam:
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25197-4/IMGP0679.JPG) (http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25193-2/IMGP0679.JPG)
The lobes on both are all 41mm and they appear visually identical. Anyway, as you can see from the photo, both of the cams were off. I've now replaced the one with the worn lobe and unless anyone can give me a good reason not to, I'll just leave the left side cam where it is and not replace it.
On another note, when I first read the stretch degree on the crankshaft I didn't really look and I mistook the 10 for a 0! The degree of stretch is actually 19...
I have both types of cams here. I'll have a look at the part numbers for you. If they are the same, I'd say just replace the one.
I wonder if Aus cams are the same as the Euros, and only the US ones are different? It seems odd.
If it were me, I'd keep the respective rockers matched with the camshaft, but it's probably not critical.
Unfortuantely, I don't have EPC access at the moment, to confirm.
Depending on the year of the car, there are two diameters of oiler pipes and fittings, with specific bearing towers. I think they are 8 and 10mm respectively and the changeover was circa 1977.
Tim
Just a guess but I'd say the number between the lobes is a casting number, is it raised or stamped? The number on the end is what diffentiates them.
EDIT: there are some codes listed in the engine manual but they are all 2 digiits and 01 is not one of them.
koan
I just had a look at my three sets of 450 camshafts, they are visually identical, but the numbers on the rear end are different. There are no standard MB part numbers on mine, just some four digit codes etc.
Tim
I should have mentioned I was swapping the rockers over as well (they're all sitting in a neat line on the shed floor at the moment). Thanks for the reminder about the oil pipe. I'd forgotten and I've kept the original end bearing tower (clearance issues) and swapped the others over. I don't know the year of the spare engine but I'll have to check that the oil pipe holes all match up! Luckily everything's only finger tight at the moment.
The number between the lobes is raised so I'd guess it was cast in.
The left hand side camshaft on the spare engine has 00' (the ' is not a typo) on the end so maybe 00 is left and 01 is right? What were the numbers on yours, TJ? I can't fit my head in to see what the end of the left camshaft in the car looks like.
I'll get those numbers for you tonight, Jakob.
Tim
I went looking on my EPC last night and found the part numbers for the standard Euro K-jet camshafts and definitely one side has an 00 and one side has 01 in the part number but couldn't find any specific number for a k-jet Australian,/US/Sweden low compression camshaft - even though they are mentioned separately.
Bill
Thanks everyone. WGB, does it specifically mention that the Australian camshafts are the same as the american ones? I was under the impression that the Australian engines were different from the US ones, with higher compression, although not as high as the euros. Could the australian camshafts actually be the same as the euro ones, with the difference being in the heads and pistons?
Also, before I get the new timing chain I'd better check, there's no differences between timing chains for any engines, euro or otherwise?
The EPC lists Standard and 3 levels of emission gear for K-Jet motors but does not elaborate on the camshafts.
For interest the Right Camshaft is given as A117 051 01 01 and the left is A117 051 00 01.
I have only ever owned Euro's and have no experience with Aus Cars but my simplistic understanding is that in K-Jet models US and Aus share the same 8:1 motor, radiator and transmission oil pump with differeing levels of ancillaries added for emmission control due to the different specs required.
Bill
Here's some pics.
Left = Euro; Right = Aus.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25202-4/Euro+-+Aus.jpg) (http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25201-1/Euro+-+Aus.jpg)
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25205-4/Shafts.jpg) (http://gallery.w116.org/dl/25204-1/Shafts.jpg)
The ones in the plastic bags below are marked P01, and are the ones out of my Aus. 450.
There are no 117 part numbers at all, and all other numbers are identical between them all.
Tim
Quote from: Jakob on 09 February 2010, 05:02 AM
I was under the impression that the Australian engines were different from the US ones, with higher compression, although not as high as the euros. Could the australian camshafts actually be the same as the euro ones, with the difference being in the heads and pistons?
That's what I'm thinking. Though with a 6.9, the Aus. engines appear to be US units.
Quote
Also, before I get the new timing chain I'd better check, there's no differences between timing chains for any engines, euro or otherwise?
They are the same, although the Euro tensioner is different, as it has no air injection port.
Tim
The camshaft is in and both sprockets and the timing chain are replaced. The only thing I haven't done yet is install the tensioner. Is the hinged piece of metal the tensioner pushes on meant to be able to move against the chain at all with a new chain? It seems very very firm and I'm wondering if it's somehow stuck on something. It was moving freely before I put in the new chain.
Other than that it's all good! Thanks for all the information regarding camshafts. It does seem that the Australian and Euro 450 engines do share the same cams.
With a new chain, there will not be much slack in the chain. You need to gently turn each camshaft backwards slightly with a spanner to ensure there is no chain slack on the 'tight side' - in other words, gather up all the chain slack at the tensioner area of the engine. Then the tensioner can just be fitted - the plunger will be almost completely compressed.