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Garage => Mechanicals => Topic started by: kertbache on 10 February 2021, 12:51 PM

Title: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 10 February 2021, 12:51 PM
Hi

I've rescued a W116 that has been stand abandoned for many years with the doors locked, and there are no keys.

Can anyone please suggest the best way to gain entry, so that I can remove the drivers door lock and have new keys made.

Or maybe it might be better to somehow gain entry and remove the boot lock, and have the keys made ?

Thanks !

Kert
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 10 February 2021, 01:05 PM
Does it have manual windows? If so, and if the driver's window regulator has significant wear on it, you should be able to apply suction cups on the window and then slide the window downward enough to access the lock plunger.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 10 February 2021, 01:08 PM
Thanks, but no, it's 450SEL with electric windows.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Type17 on 10 February 2021, 02:07 PM
What year is it? (lock types differ before/after '77).


A decent locksmith should be able to pick the earlier (double-sided wafer) or later (slider lock) type.


I'm no expert, but there are loads of videos on YouTube from the likes of Lock Picking Lawyer, so a decent locksmith should be able to emulate their work.


Once they get one lock open, they should be able to disassemble the barrel and make a key from the wafers/pins.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 10 February 2021, 02:14 PM
Thanks, I've been through all that online. I've found a specialist locksmith to make new keys, but he can't go to the car, so I somehow have the gain entry to remove either boot lock or the drivers door lock. I'm considering drilling a small hole in a specific place so as to release the either the door lock, or boot lock, as that would be easily repairable afterwards. 
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Type17 on 10 February 2021, 02:31 PM
Fair enough.


If it's a wafer lock ('72-'76), I'd buy a raking tool online and have a go at the door lock - they're considered a low-skill picking prospect, and older (worn) locks are easier again. Not sure about the later type, though.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 10 February 2021, 02:43 PM
Thanks, but this is a 79 and it's in amazingly good condition, so everything is still tight, as a good Mercedes should be.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Pete49 on 10 February 2021, 09:53 PM
Just get a mobile locksmith to open it and most likely would be able to make a key. They are a simple lock for any competent locksmith. I speak as a retired locksmith so from experience.
Pete
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 11 February 2021, 12:08 AM
Here's another thought--if you pry off the trim at the bottom of the door glass with a plastic prybar (I think it's only held on by clips and not by any other hardware, someone can correct me if I'm wrong) you'll have a decent sized gap between the door glass and the door sheet metal. From there, you should be able to reach in a coathanger and catch the mechanism that unlocks the door. Then you should be able to simply remove the door handle by removing the two hex key screws and striking the door handle with your palm to push it toward the front of the vehicle, thus releasing it from the door.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Harv on 11 February 2021, 12:41 AM
The Mercedes-Benz Classic Center in California just cut me a new key after I locked mine in it while running.

You have to show ownership proof to get a key. Can you email the Classic Center in Germany for a key?

Breaking into the car is extremely difficult given how well these cars are built. If you pry back a door far enough to where you can slide a hook in to pull a lock knob, its probably going to be damaged forever. Your best bet if you can't get keys is to try to pull down a window on a weak window regular. If not, just break the window, but make sure you have replacement glass sitting next to you.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: ptashek on 11 February 2021, 05:57 AM
I would also suggest going the official way about it, and just order the keys from Mercedes. Take your V5 and photo ID to the nearest dealership, and they will be able to make the order for you if they are still available. Last time I did this, it was about £35 per key, and took about a week or so.

No damage, no hassle, and new original VIN matched keys. Win-win.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 06:02 AM
The the local MB dealership will not make keys without the vehicle being taken to there premises, so that's obviously out in this situation.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: graham miller on 11 February 2021, 07:17 AM
Yes go to a GOOD MEERCEDES GARAGE, with all the vin numbers , and your I/D and they will get you a set of keys from Germany
regards Dusty Miller
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: revilla on 11 February 2021, 07:51 AM
There's an easier/faster but non-orthodoxe solution without moving the car. But it requires certain tools competency.
Open slightly your gas/petrol lid. There's a pin (weak) that locks it. If you pull firmly (without bending the lid) you can disengage the pin easily using a flat plastic piece. Once lid open, drill a hole until you see either the red or yellow vacuum hoses. You are drilling away from the gas/petrol intake so no fire risk here. Pull the hose through the hole. Depending on the hose you grab either blow or vacuum air and your lock pins will magically go up. Bingo. The drilled hole can easily be repaired. It's in a non-visible location so aesthetically you should be fine.  The same procedure can be followed in the area under the car next to the liquid drain rubber plug right behind the right/rear wheel well. Not far from the gas/petrol excess drain hose.  Your choice. The 2 hoses pass right at that angle. Careful not to drill too closely to the drain line just in case.  Again, the hole is easily repairable not requiring painting in body color.  This will cost you time but a lot less money than making keys at Mercedes. 
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: ptashek on 11 February 2021, 08:12 AM
Quote from: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 06:02 AM
The the local MB dealership will not make keys without the vehicle being taken to there premises, so that's obviously out in this situation.

Tell them to stop being silly, or go to another one :)

All you need is proof of ownership. I got my keys ordered in Ireland without any fuss, without the car being present (as in, nobody even asked about the car being present; it was parked at the far end of their lot).

They can't possibly expect you to schlepp a keyless non-runner there. MB dealers in the UK seem to go out of their way to fob off classic owners.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 08:23 AM
That was Mercedes Brentford who refused to supply keys without the car being there, and I've asked the manager to call me about their policy as it's unreasonable when considering that other countries supply keys as you have stated.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 08:26 AM
Interesting about using the vacuum to unlock the car, and I had given that some thought previously. But the best option I can think of so far is to drill a small hole in the top of one of the front doors after removing the chrome trim, and trying to release the lock with a strong wire. Another possible way in is via removing the rear number plate light fittings, as they are right next to the boot lock. I'll test that option on my other W116 asap.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: marku on 11 February 2021, 12:16 PM
Some brilliant solutions. The previous owner of mine had a similar problem and solved it by drilling though the centre of the barrel and that's how I got it. I bought another barrel 2nd hand and had a key made to fit.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 12:30 PM
Yes that's possible of course, but I don't want to destroy the original lock barrel because that would mean having two different keys for the car, which is the
situation I have on my current W116, so I was trying to find a perfect solution.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Type17 on 11 February 2021, 12:37 PM
You can change the pins/wafers in a lock barrel to key it up for the other locks on the car - you might need a few locks from scrapyards to get a selection of pins, but the late 116 locks probably have the same pins as late W123 or early W126 locks.


I did this back in the day with my own and my wife's Mk1 Golfs - very handy to tidy up any 'different' barrels that the cars came with, but then I also keyed the two cars the same, so we only needed one key for any of the 8 barrels  :)
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Harv on 12 February 2021, 12:54 AM
Quote from: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 06:02 AM
The the local MB dealership will not make keys without the vehicle being taken to there premises, so that's obviously out in this situation.

Which is why you go to the Classic Center, not the dealership.

If the mothership Classic Center will make me keys via a simple email to them in America, I don't see why that wouldn't be the case in Germany.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: ptashek on 12 February 2021, 04:20 PM
Quote from: Harv on 12 February 2021, 12:54 AM
Quote from: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 06:02 AM
The the local MB dealership will not make keys without the vehicle being taken to there premises, so that's obviously out in this situation.

Which is why you go to the Classic Center, not the dealership.

If the mothership Classic Center will make me keys via a simple email to them in America, I don't see why that wouldn't be the case in Germany.

In Europe the Classic Centre doesn't interact with retail customers directly, only via the dealer network.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: marku on 14 February 2021, 08:36 AM
Quote from: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 12:30 PM
Yes that's possible of course, but I don't want to destroy the original lock barrel because that would mean having two different keys for the car, which is the
situation I have on my current W116, so I was trying to find a perfect solution.

Quite right I have now of course an extra key for the car which is annoying.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: gavin116 on 14 February 2021, 04:19 PM
I wouldn't think removing trim and drilling is the way to go either. The trim is easily damaged (difficult and expensive to replace should it get damaged), the paintwork could get scratched etc. Then, there's drilling to be considered: will you be able to access the correct vacuum line once you have drilled the hole? The drill may slip, and damage the door. Although the window is fully up, some of it extends below the waistline level, should the drill suddenly give way, it could break the glass.  Have you considered that it may be easier merely to break one of the rear vent windows, and reach in to pull one of the rear door releases?Look into the feasibility of getting a replacement vent window. Whilst you're there, you'll no doubt discover a little rust in the lower outer corner when you remove the window gasket, which you can treat with a rust inhibitor before replacing the window.

P.S. you may try pleading to Russell on the parts desk, he's the one to deal with in Brentford when dealing with classics. Our cars are older than most of the youngsters on the desk. Next, you'll tell me you're 21 and it'll be my bad...
::)
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 14 February 2021, 04:36 PM
Hmmm... no drilling would be required if simply unlocking the door. All you'd have to do is use a plastic prybar set (to prevent scratching the paint), and then carefully pry up and remove the outer door trim. From there it would expose a gap between the door glass and the door shell, so you could look down and find the part of the lock mechanism that you hook onto with a coathanger or such. It's pretty easy. I've even used this method to help neighbors who have locked their keys in their car.

Once you have access to the interior of the car, you can also pop open the trunk by accessing the vacuum lines running under the right side rocker carpet, and introducing suction to the yellow tube with a green stripe on it. But, you can simply remove the outside door handle and take it to get a key made and then use that key on the rest of the car (assuming the locks all match--on my car neither door lock matches, and they also no longer match the ignition switch, even though they are supposed to).

This really shouldn't be that difficult. If I had access to your car I could probably get inside and then have the door handle removed for taking into a locksmith in about a minute.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Alec300SD on 15 February 2021, 10:47 AM
I once locked my car running with the AC on a very hot day.
Called the AAA towing service to unlock the car.
They used a car lockout kit like the MATCO LT148 style used in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQlNlU3eX6M&ab_channel=StephenCox

https://www.matcotools.com/catalog/product/LT148/MULTI-PIECE-LOCKOUT-KIT/
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 15 February 2021, 01:22 PM
The earlier claim by a Member that he could open the door in about a minute, is an insult to the engineering of Daimler Benz.

I have finally found the easiest way in without causing any damage whatsoever from my own examination of the 350SE that I already have. But I don't think I should reveal it here and needlessly put at risk the security of thousands of vehicles, so this will be my final post on the matter.

Thank you for all of your suggestions.

I have also made contact with Mercedes Benz in Stuttgart in an attempt to change their absurd demand for vehicles within the UK to be transported to their dealerships before they will supply keys. 
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Squiggle Dog on 15 February 2021, 01:43 PM
Quote from: kertbache on 15 February 2021, 01:22 PM
The earlier claim by a Member that he could open the door in about a minute, is an insult to the engineering of Daimler Benz.

Such gratitude. Go ahead and keep your finding to yourself, then. The fact is, it can be done if a person knows how.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: scoot on 15 February 2021, 02:02 PM
Quote from: kertbache on 11 February 2021, 06:02 AM
The the local MB dealership will not make keys without the vehicle being taken to there premises, so that's obviously out in this situation.
That is insane.  Try a different dealership.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: scoot on 15 February 2021, 02:06 PM
Quote from: kertbache on 15 February 2021, 01:22 PM
The earlier claim by a Member that he could open the door in about a minute, is an insult to the engineering of Daimler Benz.

I have also made contact with Mercedes Benz in Stuttgart in an attempt to change their absurd demand for vehicles within the UK to be transported to their dealerships before they will supply keys.
Don't assume that DB engineering is perfect.  It's not.
yay for contacting MB in Stuttgart.  Or go to another dealer.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: ptashek on 15 February 2021, 02:14 PM
Quote from: kertbache on 15 February 2021, 01:22 PM
The earlier claim by a Member that he could open the door in about a minute, is an insult to the engineering of Daimler Benz.

If SD said it can be done, I believe him. He's the definition of ingenuity.
Daimler engineering is much overhyped.

QuoteBut I don't think I should reveal it here and needlessly put at risk the security of thousands of vehicles

OK, so you ask for help, then apparently find a better way and choose not to share for "security reasons".
Words escape me...

QuoteI have also made contact with Mercedes Benz in Stuttgart in an attempt to change their absurd demand for vehicles within the UK to be transported to their dealerships before they will supply keys.
It's not Stuttgart, it's Milton Keynes (MB UK HQ) you should be writing to. It's a UK franchise dealer absurdity, not Daimler.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: scoot on 15 February 2021, 02:22 PM
^--   +1 !!!
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 16 February 2021, 06:12 AM
In spite of several complaints regarding my failure to disclose the very simple method that I have discovered so as to gain entry to a W116. Mercedes Benz UK has agreed that it would be highly irresponsible for me to make that information public, because it would endanger the security of thousands of classic cars.

As to the suggestion that I have approached the matter of contacting Mercedes Benz incorrectly. When I contacted Mercedes UK initially, they claimed that the policy regarding supplying keys came from DB Stuttgart. DB in Germany has since referred the matter back to the UK for an investigation into their policy of demanding that vehicles be taken to dealerships before they will supply keys, in light of my suggestion that they should simply be asking for several additional forms of ID, such as passports and bank statements, in addition to a registration documents and drivers licence. All of which should obviously be originals in the same name, without exception.

EDIT of email from Mercedes Benz UK:


Dear Sir

Mercedes-Benz Model: Mercedes-Benz W116

Thank you for your email which was received at this office on the 14th February 2021.

I am extremely sorry that your experience of Mercedes-Benz has caused you to contact us. Based on the content of your email I've opened a case file in order to investigate further. This process can take up to five working days and I ask for your patience during this time. I will contact you again as soon as I am in a position to advise you further.

In the meantime, should you wish to contact me to discuss any aspect of the investigation please do not hesitate, and quote the reference number noted above.

Yours sincerely


Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: Jed on 17 February 2021, 07:47 PM
Is anyone else annoyed by this secrecy to protect the tens of thousands of mercedes vehicles out there that are destined to be stolen if this info was divulged?


Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: revilla on 18 February 2021, 12:54 AM
What a bunch of BS!!!!!!

For me someone was looking for tips on how to steal a W116 and we have given them all.

This person might not even be in the UK but somewhere else in the globe.

The dealership excuse not to share the non-existence "secret"  is PURE CRAP!!!

Other than the tips given here on how to get ingress to a W116 There's no other way in I'm 100% positive of what I'm stating here.

The fundamental pillar of a forum is sharing of know-how (I exclude those who reply to every post with useless info) therefore somebody who claims his unwillingness to share knowledge should be filtered out here, period!
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: marku on 21 February 2021, 11:13 AM
Fair enough if you have no wish to publicise it, your decision, but did it work? I would like to know so I can think long and hard about it knowing it can be done.
Title: Re: W116 without keys and doors locked ?
Post by: kertbache on 21 February 2021, 02:33 PM
Quote from: marku on 21 February 2021, 11:13 AM
Fair enough if you have no wish to publicise it, your decision, but did it work? I would like to know so I can think long and hard about it knowing it can be done.

Thank you for understanding, Marku.

Yes, what I've eventually discovered will open the W116, and some other models, in approximately 30 seconds, once you know how, and are prepared, without any damage at all. Someone at Mercedes was stunned when I revealed this method. And that's why I don't think it's at all wise to disclose how I've done it.