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speedo markings.

Started by craigb, 20 October 2007, 08:43 PM

craigb

Hi Oscar

You might have just done a typo, but the v8s with 3spd have only a I and II ie, the point that theoritically the gear will hold on to (just what I have gleaned). I take the point though that 50 seems a lot for that low gear to hang on for. If I can just finish putting my tacho in I will take mine for a drive and see what speed I am doing at redline in first.
1980 280s

oscar

Craigb, I hope you're wrong.  Nothing personal but as I near the 400,000mark I'd hate to think the speedo is one from a 280 and my true mileage a mystery.   However, I can verify the speedo has at least been part of the 350 since approx 110,000km and 18yrs ago when my folks first bought it.

I thought the 6.9 was the only w116 not to have a III marking.  Here's a pic of mine  http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/faulty-tachometer/msg6922/#msg6922
1973 350SE, my first & fave

Andrew280SEL

Oscar, my 350 speedo is the same as yours.

I checked my dad's blue 450SEL, and sure enough his is the type as Craigb says, only the 'I' and 'II' marks with I starting at about 90Km/h or whatever...

So thing is, either both our 350's have swapped speedo's or MB was too lazy to put the 450 type in and just fitted the 280 ones.... :-\
'79 280SEL- 560,000 Kms
'73 350SE- getting an AMG facelift
'79 450SEL 6.9

craigb

#18
That's interesting. I was just using logic and what I thought other remarks meant one here ie. that a 4spd trans has  shift points and a 3 spd has 2. Lets see what other say? Mine has a part number on it. Wouldn't it be great if we could access a parts list where you just entered the number and it told you what it was and what it fitted. I was fascinated by that russian site that had all the details of vehicles from the chassis number - I'm sure you would know about that one since there are so many "dual citizens" here but if not it is in the links section of Ozbenz.

If our state clubs are good mates with head office maybe we should be lobbying for access to such a database. You reckon it would be easy for them to do?
1980 280s

oscar

#19
Craigb, I just remembered there was a bit of an effort to collate speedo part numbers.  Not entirely conclusive for every car, there's at least 4 different part numbers for 280's, but it'll give some common answers as to what speedo should go with a particular car.  Have a look and see how yours compares.  There's no guarantee that speedos haven't been swapped at some stage as there always seems to be one car that'll buck the trend.

http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/oscars-speedometer/0/

Edit - Oh and Andrew, I think we're safe after that ebay 350.  Check your part number against mine.
107 542 19 01
1973 350SE, my first & fave

Andrew280SEL

Hey Oscar, yes thanks for that. I just rushed outside and blew a sigh of relief! ;D

Mine has the 19 code in it.

So...realistically then, we should take 'II' as 'I' and 'III' as 'II'? The speeds are roughly similar.

With a tacho is shouldn't matter anyway, but for those that don't have one it's handy info. :)
'79 280SEL- 560,000 Kms
'73 350SE- getting an AMG facelift
'79 450SEL 6.9

oscar

I was going to post my red line rev limits or thereabouts but I couldn't remember them.   I drove hard in 1st and 2nd yesterday.  I think 1st got upto 80km/h @ 5000rpm. 2nd, maybe 120km/h @ 4000rpm.  I made a meal of recording the data so don't take those values as gospel but the speedo shift points can easily be challenged.  I need to drive out of town in the open to get to the redline and get accurate measurements.
1973 350SE, my first & fave

koan


Are the lines on the speedos engine red line RPMs or shift points? I believe them to be red line RPM.

They are different, optimum change points are going to be under the red line RPMs.

The optimum change point is where the falling part of the torque curve at the rear wheels in first gear intersects the rising part of the torque curve at the rear wheels in second gear, and similarly for the 2-3 shift.

koan
Boogity, Boogity, Boogity, Amen!

Andrew280SEL

Quote from: koan on 25 October 2007, 10:48 PM

Are the lines on the speedos engine red line RPMs or shift points? I believe them to be red line RPM.



Yes, I believe them to be RPM red line points as well.

Well I know they are; my 280 held in 2nd until approx 80km/h (II) will certainly be beginning to red line.
'79 280SEL- 560,000 Kms
'73 350SE- getting an AMG facelift
'79 450SEL 6.9

oscar

Quote from: koan on 25 October 2007, 10:48 PM

Are the lines on the speedos engine red line RPMs or shift points? I believe them to be red line RPM.


Well now I'm not so sure.  I up until now, based on the 350, thought that they were recommended shift points during normal driving but not necessarily red line limit.  I just reviewed my full throttle take off in "D" http://youtube.com/watch?v=3X4SMSKOoew, it goes way past the 50km/hr "I" shift mark and changes into second just before 80km/h which is well short of the 90km/h "II" shift mark and revs to just over 5500rpm. ??? 

Sometimes the 350 can give me the shits, I mean poops,  I just wish it would fall in line and adhere to trends with the rest of the mob.  But it'd be pretty boring if all w116's were the same.

I'm off to find my original 350 owners manual to see if it can shed any light.
1973 350SE, my first & fave

Andrew280SEL

I'm not sure it would let itself red line in 'D' anyway.

I think that the markings are a guide for, say, when your flooring it in 'L' and aren't watching/don't have a tacho. In other words, you will want to slip the selector into 'S' or 'D' before you reach that first marking 'I', or in the 350's case,  'II'.
'79 280SEL- 560,000 Kms
'73 350SE- getting an AMG facelift
'79 450SEL 6.9

Andrew280SEL

#26
Also, I just took a couple of snaps with my phone:




That's the 350 obviously...





...and the 450.

And so I guess you could safely say you can use the 'II' and 'III' marks on the 350 as the equivalent of 'I' and 'II', with a slight bit of lee-way.
Because as you can see, the 350 II and III marks are ever so slightly earlier than the I and II marks of the 450. But only a bit.

Unless the gear ratios are any different, but I'm pretty sure their not.
'79 280SEL- 560,000 Kms
'73 350SE- getting an AMG facelift
'79 450SEL 6.9

oscar

Ok, here we go, mystery solved.

Firstly, a few points.
- There was a 5spd manual  :o offered in the 280.  280 also was offered a 4spd manual and a 4spd auto.
- The 350 was either a 4spd manual or 3spd auto
- There was never a 450 with manual offered by the factory.  It was only ever given a 3spd auto.

Lastly, I'll quote a passage regarding the speedo shift points.

Do not exceed maximum speeds in the individual selector lever positions. Selector lever position "S" corresponds to marking III (450SE/SEL - II) on the speedometer, selector lever position "L" to marking II (450SE/SEL - I).  Marking I is on types 280S/SE?SEL, 350SE/SEL only of importance for the mechanical transmission.


Some pages of the 1973 owners manual.  The first four are regarding gear changes, the last four have gearing speed limits for each model and gearbox type.   Remember this is pre K-jet and pre 6.9.

Can't believe there was a 5spd manual 8)  The fifth gear seems purely an OD.





1973 350SE, my first & fave

Andrew280SEL

Very good Oscar! ;D

I did know there was a 5 speed, but boy it must be rare. I can only imagine driving a 280 with one of them!

And the 350 mystery truly solved. So the only reason we have that first (confusing) mark at 50 kms is because the 350 had a 4 speed 'box as well.... man, one of those would be fun. :P
'79 280SEL- 560,000 Kms
'73 350SE- getting an AMG facelift
'79 450SEL 6.9

CraigS

Does the manual offer any brand of the 5 speed ? I would guess ZF but maybe it was a GM unit. The EPS doesn't offer any clue.
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