Right, so I have donated my, Bosch 0227100001B, working spare unit from the 350SE to science, mostly due to the irrecoverably damaged casing. As mentioned in another thread, someone took to it with an angle grinder and long-term, that was the end of it. I have given the case a final blow the very same way, just to get at the power transistor.
The unit in itself is nothing special. I have the schematic almost worked out, and most of the components identified bar the diodes and the big TO-3 power transistor. There are five transistors on board:
3x BCY58X - NPN, replaceable by BC337-40
1x BSV15-16K - PNP, replaceable by BD136-16
1x TO-3 packaged power transistor made by Philips and marked "112 00 08 7/32" - I haven't found what it is yet
If anyone has an idea what that power transistor is, please share :)
I plan to make a test PCB and rebuild the thing using new parts, maybe even surface mount.
I'll share the PCB design and schematic once I have them worked out for sure. It'll be some time.
As far as what I can remember, early SMPS transistors like BU508 and BU208 were the successful transplants.
Apparently, BU426 works best and there was a variant in TO3 case
Below are links for the schematic (PNG + gEDA format) and a list of parts I have so far identified. This is revision #6, and as far as I can tell it's electrically correct and identical to the original, but none of this has yet been verified in practice. If you find obvious flaws, please share :)
Standard disclaimer: if you decide to build this, you're doing so at your own risk.
Schematic image (last updated: Jan 20, 2013):
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/w116_im_v5.png)
CSV parts list
http://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/w116_im_v5.csv (http://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/w116_im_v5.csv)
gEDA schematic
http://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/w116_im_v5.sch (http://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/w116_im_v5.sch)
it's a nice bunch of discrete components there. Thanks for that, I'm sure this will com in handy at some stage.
Tim
This may seem a silly question to those with technical expertise, but I've always wondered why all of these early electronics couldn't be serviced with one, rather universal unit.
I've noticed that the analysis ports on all variety of later cars seem to "speak" to a single diagnostic tool - surely there is some universality to the inputs/outputs on various ignition modules?
For anyone interested, some part identification efforts on Stack Exchange :)
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/55369/need-help-with-identifying-diodes-in-a-1970s-automotive-circuit/
Can you advise what/where pin 31d goes? Is it not pin 3 (shield for pin 7)?
* check that C8 goes between C an B of T5
* pin 31 cannot be earthed (must have been auto connected when drawn)
* is pin 31d (or whatever the correct number) connected to GND?
* What is the chance that pin1 of T3 is earthed (emitter-D5anode-R6-C3-R8-C6 node)?
* 2x R10, no R11 --> please correct the values and names
more to come
Quote from: djenka018 on 19 January 2013, 03:16 AM
Can you advise what/where pin 31d goes? Is it not pin 3 (shield for pin 7)?
* check that C8 goes between C an B of T5
* pin 31 cannot be earthed (must have been auto connected when drawn)
* is pin 31d (or whatever the correct number) connected to GND?
* What is the chance that pin1 of T3 is earthed (emitter-D5anode-R6-C3-R8-C6 node)?
* 2x R10, no R11 --> please correct the values and names
more to come
Thanks! :)
OK, this is how the module is connected to the entire ignition system:
http://i.stack.imgur.com/KkC5f.jpg
Here's the PCB with tracks overlay:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/W116_im_full.jpg
Based on that, and the back side of the PCB, both pins 31 and 31d are GND. Pin 31d is common ground for the distributor and is earthed via the module chassis, and 31 is GND as well - at least that's how I understand it looking at the above. C8 does go between C and B of T5, and yes R11 has gone AWOL indeed. Surprisingly enough there is no D2 on the PCB as well.
Pins 15, 16, 31 and TD go to the 4-pin connector. Pins 31d and 7 go to the 2-pin connector.
and what about:
* What is the chance that pin1 of T3 is earthed (emitter-D5anode-R6-C3-R8-C6 node)?
.
I've updated the schematic image, and parts list too. Double checked with PCB, and it looks fine to me.
There is no D2 and no R11 on the PCB, and the resistor near R15, previously marked as R10, is actually R16.
I got schematic done in functional order but I can see from it that unless T3 is grounded it cannot trigger.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/42260-2/w116_im_v_DJ.jpg) (http://gallery.w116.org/v/garage/djenka018/w116_im_v_DJ.ps/)
Quote from: djenka018 on 19 January 2013, 09:09 PM
I got schematic done in functional order but I can see from it that unless T3 is grounded it cannot trigger.
(http://gallery.w116.org/dl/42260-2/w116_im_v_DJ.jpg) (http://gallery.w116.org/v/garage/djenka018/w116_im_v_DJ.ps/)
I think I've been looking at the PCB so much, that I've stopped seeing things the way they are :o
You are totally right. The emitter (pin 1) of T3 is grounded. I've messed up this fragment on the schematic.
The connection goes like this: R8-C3-R6-C5-T3(1)-GND, and R13-T3(3)-ZD3-R14
djenka018, would you happen to still have a hi-res version of your drawing handy?
http://gallery.w116.org/dl/42257-1/w116_im_v_DJ.ps
I do have a .sch somewhere (gEDA) but that will take forever to find.
Quote from: djenka018 on 04 July 2015, 08:52 PM
http://gallery.w116.org/dl/42257-1/w116_im_v_DJ.ps
I do have a .sch somewhere (gEDA) but that will take forever to find.
Thanks. I'm in no rush :)
Can I just say how utterly epic this is. I'd love to help, learn where possible as I think this is a skill that classic car owners will soon be learning how to do in years to come.
Quote from: jimmyricket on 06 July 2015, 03:59 PM
Can I just say how utterly epic this is. I'd love to help, learn where possible as I think this is a skill that classic car owners will soon be learning how to do in years to come.
It will most certainly be a string of epic failures before I get something that works :)
I'm a bit of a newbie here, but I've owned a '79 450SEL daily-driver for 20 years or so... lucky me, my mechanic is one of my best friends. Unlucky me, he recently retired. I've always dealt with the light-weight and cosmetic stuff anyway, but now I'm having to roll up my sleeves (I did rebuild a climate control servo from spares about 15 years ago, and it still works!). I've had a nagging problem with my ignition, but I'll save that for a another post (and as we all know.. rust never sleeps!...)
Anyway, I've had a consulting business doing PCB layouts for electronics companies 30 years now (www[dot]Lumagraph[dot]net), but semi-retired lately (giving me more time to work on my 450.. and my old house!). At the cost of these units.. and what you've accomplished so far.. are you considering creating a replacement PCB? If so, if you need any help with the schematic and/or layout, I'd be glad to do it (although you probably have it under control.. and why would you want to hand off the fun part?! ;-) ). Would there be any copyright issues? Just asking!
I have a CadStar workstation, a CAD system that was grandfathered by the UK based Racal-Redac system, and still written and supported out of Bristol UK. As an aside, they have a freeware version called CadStar Express which is limited to 300 pins/50 components, which this design looks to be within. I don't know much about the gEDA system, but CadStar can handle everything from schematic to layout to bom/assembly. Of course, sourcing parts and prototyping.. and getting it to work are the bigger unknowns. Anybody want to tackle that cruise control amp :-o...?
I'm not an electrical engineer, but have done a lot of PCB layouts, and occasionally deal with fabrication and assembly subs. It looks like you and Djenka have done a lot of the hard (preliminary) work. I've gotta say, you're brave souls.. and better judges of what it would take to make this work. My analog hat's off to you.
There's no need to reengineer these.
When they fail your engine stops and hardly any further damage to the pcb. Maybe it is.a good idea to get one or two spare even if they are faulty.
In my experience, hardly anything fails past the main switching transistor and it used to be a very common component in SMPS for tv's during crt era (i think it was BU326). I've repaired perhaps 20 of these and usual culprit was deteriorating heat sink compound leading into overheating.
Bottom line plenty a options with modern variants if originality is not an issue
I've finally put the schematic together with current component equivalents, and have ran a few simulations. Well, we have spark gents:
(higher res after click)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/docs/ignition/first_spark.png)
This is simulated spark at ~780rpm (13Hz).
Have a look at this link, you may find something inspiring (or totally boring):
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/lfb/Pgbosch.html
Good to know there are options available. I had checked some years ago and didn't see any alternatives to the oem box at $$$+. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, or has the internet gotten better?! ;-) What a change of pace.. seeing an expense go down instead of up!
Your info (sudden death failure mode) also suggests that the box is not my ignition problem anyway. I'm surprised tho, that some of those caps last as long as they do under pretty harsh conditions.
RE Bosch modified. OMG, be careful not to over-engineer anything.. not on a Benz! The thought of getting a DOS command line involved.. and on top of that, using an idea from Lucas, Prince of Darkness. The mulit-sparking is interesting. Dare we hope to get better gas mileage? Or just a greener car?
Wow, that simulation is cool, you've made Robert Bosch smile. What software did you use? I'm just now getting an education in ignition electronics. Is your chart for an 8 cylinder? If so, shouldn't that 780rpm be 26hz? I guess it doesn't matter since there's no assembly code in our trusty MB's!
I've used circuitlab.com, their simulations are good enough for this circuit, but I'll be doing real-life testing before committing to a design.
For final schematics and, eventually, PCB I'll be using Eagle CAD as that's pretty much the standard.
Some crude sums suggest there's under 30EUR in component costs in this thing. Even if you add 2-3 times that to have the PCB made professionally, and the housing machined from aluminium it still is pretty obvious that MB has lost it's mind asking close to four figures for a replacement unit. Used unit supply is healthy, and prices are OK, so for myself there's more fun and curiosity to this project than practical necessity.
Also, well spotted that the spark frequency is wrong. It should be 52Hz at 780rpm for a four-stroke, single-coil V8.
Small world.. I wrote an Eagle-to-Cadstar NetLister ULP last year to do an 8000 pin design for a client. I never got around to posting it though; I had to soak my head for a few weeks after his 32 iterations, a record.
Yeah.. some of the prices are capitalism at its worst. Where's the proletariat when you need them?! Have you or anyone experienced the ProgRama rebuilds? I haven't checked the exact pn, but US$158 is within reach. Is it worth the risk to open up something that isn't broken (yet) to do a preventative maintenance, like renewing the heat-sinking that Djenka referred to? Or is it potted?
In other off-topics.. are you having to re-create your schematic within circuitlab to simulate? I'm guessing Eagle doesn't have a workable Spice module?
26Hz.. I guess I was simulating my ignition problems.. :o
Quote from: markb on 12 July 2015, 04:27 PM
Yeah.. some of the prices are capitalism at its worst. Where's the proletariat when you need them?! Have you or anyone experienced the ProgRama rebuilds? I haven't checked the exact pn, but US$158 is within reach. Is it worth the risk to open up something that isn't broken (yet) to do a preventative maintenance, like renewing the heat-sinking that Djenka referred to? Or is it potted?
I've no experience with the Programa units. But if they're as reliable as their CC modules, then it's likely to be money well spent.
As for the original PCB, it's all encased in some kind of soft, translucent silicone gel. The main power transistor is bolted onto the aluminium chassis, which acts as heat-sink. There's no thermal compound between the two, or at least not in my unit.
QuoteIn other off-topics.. are you having to re-create your schematic within circuitlab to simulate?
Yeah... They're being total jerks and support neither import nor export of schematics from/to Eagle (or anything other than PDF/PNG/EPS/SVG).
It's been years since I've last done anything with electronics, but one thing hasn't changed in the EDA space - everyone still has their own, proprietary format for everything.
QuoteI'm guessing Eagle doesn't have a workable Spice module?
It provides one via PCBSim (not a cheap option either).
Ever wondered how those things were made by Bosch?
Well, that's how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nejl46f-lfY
I've stumbled on this video while trying to get more info on that cryptic "1120008 7/32" power transistor of theirs. The video shows another type, but those ignition modules sure look like ours :)
This is the only replacement part I haven't fully identified yet, albeit there's a bunch of worthy candidates. My current favourite is the BUV21G.
Took me a while but I found the way to recall:
It was a darlington BU323A (hence the confusion with BU326)
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/170491/GESS/BU323.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/170491/GESS/BU323.html)
Modern replaacement could be:
http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM100/CL822/SC88/PF62868 (http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM100/CL822/SC88/PF62868)
More to pick your brain:
http://users.tpg.com.au/pschamb/boschrepair.html
Thanks!
There's a few documents about the ignition circuit that help picking potential candidates - peak voltage at pin 16 (T5 collector) is ~100V at ~8A peak current for ~1.5ms. From my own testing I know that the base of T5 is driven at 300mA, so max forward current gain is just under 30. Switching frequency is low enough to be irrelevant.
What's interesting is the coil - apparently the original ones were 185:1, giving 18.5kV spark output. That seems pretty low.
Modern ignition setups are driven at at least 25kV, but then again they're also multi-spark.
Edit: The BU323 is still available -> http://au.element14.com/on-semiconductor/bu323zg/darlington-transistor-sot-93/dp/9555960
Here's the final revision of the schematic, with all parts as they should be, and the entire ignition circuit shown. I'll add an Eagle schematic / PCB / BOM at some point, once my prototype is verified (parts are shipping!). Simulations show this'll work as expected :)
https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5ag5z6/w116-ignition-control-circuit/
If you go and make a commercial gain out of this, I want 50% ;D
Quote from: ptashek on 22 July 2015, 10:41 PM
Here's the final revision of the schematic, with all parts as they should be, and the entire ignition circuit shown. I'll add an Eagle schematic / PCB / BOM at some point, once my prototype is verified (parts are shipping!). Simulations show this'll work as expected :)
https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5ag5z6/w116-ignition-control-circuit/ (https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5ag5z6/w116-ignition-control-circuit/)
If you go and make a commercial gain out of this, I want 50% ;D
How 'bout I give you the whole 100% of the profits?
That's about 100% of the negative profits I made.
Now you owe me money!
;-)
Well, I can declare some level of success with the prototype.
I have re-built the original module, using its original parts where possible, and have hooked both units to a 12V power supply, and my scope. While they both trigger as and when they should, neither generates that ~600µs long 70V+ spike on the output. All I see is the "fall-off" 12V signal. So, now I need to test both units connected to a real car. Any volunteers? ;)
This is what it should look like, based on a simulated circuit. The trigger signal is a square wave in the simulation, and on the car. That's what I need to check next, as my current op-amp oscillator leaves much to be desired in that respect :D
Simulated circuit:
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/txzt95d73ofpvyi/sim_module.png?dl=1)
Original circuit (channel A is blue, and is the trigger V(7); channel B is red, and is the output V(16)) :
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/egofnxogmlrx4nw/IMG_20150903_230016.jpg?dl=1)
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/ig7q0z07nftki3x/mb_module.jpg?dl=1)
My prototype:
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/80sc3pxkkf98rzw/IMG_20150903_225421.jpg?dl=1)
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/nt0o1vpytsatwt5/my_module.jpg?dl=1)
I'll ask a question that may be overly stupid.
I do not see your coil on the pictures. Is there one in the circuit?
And the coil must be of the correct type (not capacitive discharge type like on D-Jets)
Quote from: djenka018 on 04 September 2015, 08:21 AM
I'll ask a question that may be overly stupid.
I do not see your coil on the pictures. Is there one in the circuit?
And the coil must be of the correct type (not capacitive discharge type like on D-Jets)
No, there is no coil and this is what I suspect is causing the "ignition spike" to be missing. It most likely needs that inductive load to fire fully. I have the entire setup spare from my 350 K-Jet, and will attempt to build the entire circuit over the weekend.
Yes mate, the "rebound" is indeed from the coil. In that case the "ECG" you have is correct.
Just make sure you have a spark plug at the other end (or the spike can be over the limit of your transistor) and you may benefit by using the 0.6+0.4 Ohm resistor in line for the same reason
My diagramme seem to be mismatched with yours. The base of the T3 was not connected to R19/C5/C6 node and I must have overlooked it. I
I got it to fire as it should, finally. And yeah, as suspected it won't fire unless fully loaded by the coil circuit.
Here's a short video of my board in action: http://www.youtube.com/embed/qzFwiPDNBnE
Surprisingly enough, I couldn't get it to fire at all with the ballast attached.
I no longer wonder why that module box is so beefy. I've measured the power transistor at 75*C case temperature, running at 62Hz (~1200rpm or so). It can only go hotter from there, so this is definitely one important thing to keep in mind for this project.
Once the board warms up and stabilizes, power consumption is around 60W (5A @ 12V DC).
Peak trigger voltage was just over 130V DC, translating to about 24kV spark voltage in this specific coil.
This is how it looked like on the scope (note the B-channel probe is a 1:10). Perfect match with the simulated circuit.
http://www.dropbox.com/s/q3u5c3h3et0cauu/my_module_proper.pdf?dl=0
Next up - finalise the BOM, make a proper full-size PCB, test in a car.
Congratulations!
You've now reached the point where a FET may be the next fork (it can dramatically reduce the heat output).
Most of the heat comes from the ripple following the inductive spike (snubber network helps there) and from the silicone transistor (faster switching = less heat, lower switching voltage etc.). It also affects the spark energy, similar to the way arcing of points reduces the spark energy (hence the tuning capacitor which kills the spark).
Quote from: djenka018 on 05 September 2015, 05:52 AM
Congratulations!
You've now reached the point where a FET may be the next fork (it can dramatically reduce the heat output).
Most of the heat comes from the ripple following the inductive spike (snubber network helps there) and from the silicone transistor (faster switching = less heat, lower switching voltage etc.). It also affects the spark energy, similar to the way arcing of points reduces the spark energy (hence the tuning capacitor which kills the spark).
Thanks!
I've never done anything with FETs that went beyond replacing those on a board. It would be a rather big job to switch from a current driven circuit, to a voltage driven circuit, something that's likely beyond what I understand well enough.
I've meanwhile redesigned the board to use SMD only components, and that in itself should allow for better heat dissipation. It just needs proper placement and routing - I've given up after way to many tries ;)
Either way, all that I've done for this project is now on GitHub under https://github.com/ptashek/mb
The only thing missing is a full description of how this unit works under the hood.
Send me the .sch file with SMD's and I will make you a PCB.
I think I got Eagle and gEDA...
I do not think you will be much better with SMD in terms of heat. Most the heat comes from power drive components and that are the 2 large transistors and surrounding components.
Quote from: djenka018 on 09 September 2015, 09:36 PM
Send me the .sch file with SMD's and I will make you a PCB.
I think I got Eagle and gEDA...
I do not think you will be much better with SMD in terms of heat. Most the heat comes from power drive components and that are the 2 large transistors and surrounding components.
That'd be great help!
You can get the EagleCAD BRD and SCH files from GitHub: https://github.com/ptashek/mb/tree/master/Ignition%20Module/EagleCAD
As for heat, practically all of the real heat is actually generated by R15 and T5 only. T5 ships over 800W in microsecond pulses (8A @ 100V DC when firing) in theory, while in my unit it actually does closer to 1kW. R15, which runs much hotter than T5, handles 2W continuously, with ~2ms drops when T5 fires. The 100V zener (39V ZD4 + 51V ZD5, which I've replace with just one) is at 5W pulsed, the R22 tops at 1.5W pulsed, and the rest never cross 750mW with most running well below 500mW.
Maybe it indeed makes no difference if they're SMD, or TO-220 mounted flat.
I'll be making another prototype board in SMD at some stage, so we'll have some data to compare :)
Here's corrected diagramme pdf and a PCB based on your own SMD components.
Some components are undersized for the function and when you decide on exact component I can update the PCB.
TO3 transistor (BU323) is meant to be on the other side of the PCB hence the overlaying components. Normally, this is separated further by about 5mm from the heat sink. Double sided metalised or riveted holes should be used for reliability of contacts.
All the tracks surrounding BSV15 and north from it should not be covered with an overlay and when the pcb is flowed the solder should increase their thickness.
Quote from: djenka018 on 12 September 2015, 07:38 AM
Here's corrected diagramme pdf and a PCB based on your own SMD components.
Some components are undersized for the function and when you decide on exact component I can update the PCB.
TO3 transistor (BU323) is meant to be on the other side of the PCB hence the overlaying components. Normally, this is separated further by about 5mm from the heat sink. Double sided metalised or riveted holes should be used for reliability of contacts.
All the tracks surrounding BSV15 and north from it should not be covered with an overlay and when the pcb is flowed the solder should increase their thickness.
Thanks! This looks sane, unlike any of my attempts. You clearly have a much better idea of how this thing works :)
As for parts:
T5 is a BUB323, which is a D2PAK-3 packaged version of BU323.
T4 is a ZXTP2041F, which is SOT23 packaged (but anything similar to BC160-16, which is the modern version of BSV15-16K, will do).
Which components do you think are undersized? I'll get them updated.
I've mostly gone with 2W resistors, which is well oversized except for R15. The diodes should all also be well within spec.
BTW, ZD4 is 51V, not 50V. I think it makes sense to replace ZD4 + ZD5 with a 100V, beefier element.
D1, D8 would have to be 1N400x variety (common rectifier 1A), C7 will have to be a variety of several 100's of Volts and then there are several different types that are qualified for the snubber network, electrolytic capacitors are better in tantalum variation for reliability (alu canister is the least reliable for automotive).
If you want to use SMD BUB323, you will have heat issues and copper thickness (PCB) will be detrimental. If you go with quite thick copper, remaining tracks can be much thinner
wrt to ZD4/ZD5, it is all bout what you want.
With multiple Z-Di the total power is sum of individuals (for same or similar volts) and if 1x Z-Di goes short it does not create a short across. Also, heat is better dissipated.
Same principle can be used for R15. If you were to use say 10x 3.3Ohm/0.5W resistors in series total would be 33Ohm/5W and heat would be better dissipated then from a single resistor.
IMO, for reliability the T5 and R15 should be off the pcb
Gotcha. All good points definitely worth taking into account. My next step was drafting out a custom chassis for the PCB, and this will help.
p.s.: Can you post your version of the schematic in Eagle format? It'd save me some time redoing mine :)
I've updated the files on GitHub, with uprated components and revised schematic.
There's also a BOM file.
What on earth are you guys on about!
Been reading these posts again and again, and I literally have no clue what you're saying.
With 3875 (other) views till now, am I the only one with steam coming out of my ears?
I haven't even understood what it is you're trying to achieve here, haha!
I should have paid more attention in class..
At this stage, I just want to build this thing proper, and prove it can be done for <50EUR a piece. By far the most expensive part would be the machined aluminium chassis.
And while I don't understand the circuit anywhere close to how djenka018 seems to, by now I could probably fix one blindfolded. It'll come in handy one day as the used item stream will start drying up.
Oh, and something from your quarters - I've just bought one of these NOS, never used in a car and still in its OEM box... for 45EUR + shipping.
Score!
Why not reuse original box and just replace the internals?
That way you maintain original looks and updated components; sort of drop-in PCB.
Make a good picture of the front and the back of the original PCB and replacement PCB would be made quickly.
I got few of EZL's, 1 was a gift, and I bought 2 of others 2nd hand from wreckers for about $20 each (tested working on the car).
IMO, get a few spare BU's (T5) and bob's your uncle.
But then again I do not mind helping you achieve your goal if the help is fun to me. Sadly, I stopped doing this for remuneration 10 years ago.
""Oh, and something from your quarters - I've just bought one of these NOS, never used in a car and still in its OEM box... for 45EUR + shipping.
Score! ""
What, what, where?? What did I miss?
Haha!
My mechanic tells me I have K-Jets, so you're welcome to keep your goodie..
Nonsense aside.. It's a walk in the park for me to have your ignition box/case, -or whatever the contraption is you're trying to reproduce-, made here from billet aluminium. We always have CNC projects ongoing.
If you have a sample, I can do a quick 3D scan, or if you have a Cad/Cam, even better. I can easily quote you, non-profit..
Abroad, many CNC companies won't take appointments for less than 1000 units, or they will skin you alive to produce a dozen of 1 type. We do 10's cheaply all the time. Normally, CNC machine allocation time is 3-4 weeks.
Just a thought.
QuoteWhy not reuse original box and just replace the internals?
That way you maintain original looks and updated components; sort of drop-in PCB.
Yeah, that's plan A, where the box is available and not weathered/butchered beyond use (like on my 350).
Plan B is a reproduction box. It shouldn't take long to make a mockup in Autodesk Inventor. I'll add it to GitHub when ready.
Quote
But then again I do not mind helping you achieve your goal if the help is fun to me. Sadly, I stopped doing this for remuneration 10 years ago.
I don't do it for a financial gain either; there's little point to it.
I just like building things, especially if the knowledge gained in the process can help others too.
I've learned a ton from posts in the Org forums, so this is payback ;)
Agreed, that's what it should be about, at least sometimes. Trying to outsmart the system together by avoiding stealerships and hit-and-run cowboys, keeping these cars on the road affordably, and as original as possible.
For a few pennies more, I can have the CNC's boxes engraved with OEM part numbers, and stickers up to spec as well. Would be hard-pressed to tell the difference from real, with the right ionized coating color
Original EZL boxes are cast silumin
That can be done as well, for a mere 10.000usd in molding costs.
I conclude that mimicking cast iron color on billet aluminium is a better idea. :P
First revision of the box:
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/l67jfd9jj6piwye/im_box.jpg?dl=1)
I'll get it 3D printed to check if the original lid fits, and then it's just a case of figuring out the inner mount points for an updated PCB.
I'll upload the Inventor files to GitHub at some point this week.
:o wow, you don't wait for grass to grow!
OK, I'll wait for the complete files and have them sent off to our CNC guys
I admire the devotion and energy...
Quote from: djenka018 on 16 September 2015, 05:13 AM
I admire the devotion and energy...
It's fun! Especially the 3D CAD part.
Speaking of which, here's the 3D model files (still unfinished, and unverified):
https://github.com/ptashek/mb/tree/master/Ignition%20Module/Case
If you can, please provide the final design in Cad/cam. It will allow a quote from a maximum amount of CNC companies, for i do not know for certain whether they use alternate 3D programs.
And here it is, in its prototype "quality" 3D printed glory...
(http://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/12034207_1206697936010789_6789172270565098350_o.jpg)
p..s.: I can provide STL files which any reputable CNC shop should be able to handle without issue.
And here is my box mock-assembled with OEM lid, PCB and connector.
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/q99j4nsuifyhbbl/IMG_20150918_192313.jpg?dl=1)
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/g3a11os2xe9kpml/IMG_20150918_192247.jpg?dl=1)
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/eu9ium5hjo0dtwc/IMG_20150918_192232.jpg?dl=1)
Hey Ptashek,
how about yo make a decent picture (good focus and good lighting) of the front and the back of the original PCB and I can reproduce it.
Please take the close up of capacitors so that a correct type is used (usually 3 letters) and of semicuntductors too.
BTW, the box is stunning.
semicuntductors? ;D
That 3D print is amazing.
Out of my comfort zone, I need to ask.. is 3D printing expensive, an item like this?
I take it originality is a bigger issue than 3D printing cost?
I trust you on the STL format.
When I say "we do CNC jobs every week" it really means I am paying 2 or 3 of my Ohlins R&D centers to take care of things.
That doesn't know I know the technicalities as such. I like to surround myself with knowledgeable people so I don't need to memorize every manual that's thrown at me, haha!
QuoteThat 3D print is amazing.
Out of my comfort zone, I need to ask.. is 3D printing expensive, an item like this?
I take it originality is a bigger issue than 3D printing cost?
The quality is so-so with the printer I have access to - a 5th gen MakerBot Replicator. Tolerances are the biggest issue. At highest resolution (0.1mm) you get +/- 0.2mm tolerances, and sometimes things don't fit when 3D printed, even though they'd fit perfectly when machined professionally. But it's a superb thing for rapid prototyping, and much cheaper than any other medium I know.
The hardware itself isn't cheap, but running costs are very reasonable - a 1kg roll of PLA filament costs ~45USD, and this entire set of parts used a total of 220g of it, including all rafts and supports. That's just under 10USD, excluding energy costs. The whole thing took ~18h to print (it's a terribly slow process).
Having it all assembled now there's a few small changes I need to make, and then it'll be ready for proper machining.
Quote from: djenka018 on 18 September 2015, 07:41 PM
Hey Ptashek,
how about yo make a decent picture (good focus and good lighting) of the front and the back of the original PCB and I can reproduce it.
Please take the close up of capacitors so that a correct type is used (usually 3 letters) and of semicuntductors too.
BTW, the box is stunning.
Parts list: https://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/w116_im_v5.csv (most of the diodes were impossible to identify, so they're best guesses)
Annotated PCB with track overlay:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/W116_im_full_annotated.jpg
And here's the same, without the annotations:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/MB450SE/repairs/W116_im_full.jpg
That's the best pics I have of the original board and components. I've replaced all of the diodes with their best guess models, and the box still ran, so did my prototype, so I'm assuming those are correct in terms of value, if not necessarily wattage (albeit both ran fine for 15+ minutes flat out).
And the size of the pcb?
Quote from: djenka018 on 20 September 2015, 07:35 AM
And the size of the pcb?
110mm x 68mm PCB
1.6mm thickness, glass-fibre epoxy, 2oz copper
4.2mm mount drill holes
16mm x 6.5mm center, top side, from PCB edge
16mm x 11.5mm center, connector side, from PCB edge
(78mm x 50mm center to center)
TO3 cutout
45mm from left edge, 18.5mm from top edge to left/top edge of cutout
~20mm across from there.
The model is now complete and updated on GitHub.
The only thing I haven't done is the PCB mount platform, but it's a separate part anyway. I'll add it eventually. The box has all it needs.
I've drawn the connector too, pins and all, which should ultimately allow for even that part to be reproduced if needs be.
Next project: cruise control amp! (not)
Well, this is interesting: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0227100001-Timing-Module/dp/B006K8XXQY
Brand new OEM box for USD650 straight from Bosch anyone?
Isn't a refurbished ProgranaInc for 175usd a better idea than a model that's been catching dust, oxidation for 30+ years?
Quote from: ptashek on 21 September 2015, 04:41 PM
Well, this is interesting: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0227100001-Timing-Module/dp/B006K8XXQY
Brand new OEM box for USD650 straight from Bosch anyone?
Hey,
There's a great saving of $350.
But wait, there's more!
Now you can buy it for only 87 easy payments of 10 bucks only!
That is $10 bucks only!
/not so serious
I've just received my eBay module, mentioned earlier. The seller had little idea of what he's selling, I think. This thing is brand new, never used and in original box, made in WK20 of 1982 - for 45EUR, that's a great deal. Connector o-rings have perished from old age, but otherwise it's mint if a bit dirty. Even if it's non-op, I don't care as I can now fix the PCB with my eyes shut.
The value is in all the bits my box was missing due to extreme oxidation.
I didn't even know there's a vent hole in the back of the box, or positioning holes :o
I've updated the EagleCAD schematic and board layout on GitHub (https://github.com/ptashek/mb/tree/master/Ignition%20Module/) - there was one net missing, which would have prevented that version to fire. All changes made:
+ Fixed missing net T5.B -> junction R15 <-> R16
+ Renamed C8 <-> C9
+ Replaced D8 with 1N4148 (there's no need for a BYG20 here)
+ Replaced parallel R2 (24k) + R3 (41.2k) with 15.4k R2 only, one less BOM part to worry about
+ Updated PCB layout + routing
I've also made public the model I was working off of when simulating the thing initially:
https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5ag5z6/mercedes-benz-w116-ignition-control-circuit/
My prototype survived a 24h burn-in test without a glitch, so I declare this effort done and complete :D
Enjoy, and thanks to everyone who helped along the way. Special thanks to djenka018 for organising the initial schematic properly.
-- disregard --
I'm just catching wind of this amazing thread. Congratulations, PTASHEK! :)
Back in September, Stan mentioned that a rebuilt Programma unit may be better than a NOS one. While the Electrolytics may need replaced in a NOS unit, the Programma units have a very high failure rate. I don't recommend them.
Quote from: UTn_boy on 29 March 2016, 12:47 AM
[..] the Programma units have a very high failure rate. I don't recommend them. [..]
Interesting. They do have a good reputation on the cruise control amp front.
Considering my badly soldered prototype sailed through 24h of red-line conditions (simulating ~5000km driven at top-speed), I'm a little surprised a professionally rebuilt unit would fail. There's very little that can fail here, so it's either due to low quality component, issues with heat dissipation or bad workmanship - or maybe all three. I'd love to see inside an ignition module rebuilt by them, and see what it is they're doing in there.
Anyone got a failed unit, or a working unit that's past warranty and could be opened up and photographed?
I agree about the cruise control units they supply. I've never had a problem with any of those.
Regarding the ignition control modules, I don't know what they do, replace, or "re-do" in the ignition module. If I come across a Programma unit that is faulty, it's yours.
Dear,
i have an 280SEL, ignition unit , bosch 0 227 051 014, for a 6 cyl.
there is 1 component on the circuit board that i can't determine,
could you help we with that component. it's a black big round ball . 2 pc are on the board.
i put a red circle on it.
i'n my electronic drawing i named them X1 and X2.
That's a very early W116 unit. Those black items would have to be a capacitor or some type of diode.....Zener, Schottky, etc.
They're most likely standard rectifier diodes, like a 1N4004.
hi,
thanks for the feedback,
there is some kind of very thick coating on it which i didn't notice the first time, and if you use my sharp probes to measure now in diode mode , i see a drop of 0.456 V
certainley a diode. like you suggested. thx.
in the centre of the board you have the transistor, would you know which type this would be , or which type is used in the drawing of the 0227100001b that you made.
Quote from: elias on 05 November 2021, 10:58 AM
hi,
thanks for the feedback,
there is some kind of very thick coating on it which i didn't notice the first time, and if you use my sharp probes to measure now in diode mode , i see a drop of 0.456 V
certainley a diode. like you suggested. thx.
in the centre of the board you have the transistor, would you know which type this would be , or which type is used in the drawing of the 0227100001b that you made.
Under 0.7V across the diode would suggest it's a Schottky.
The transistor is a NPN power transistor. I've used BDW42G and BU323ZG, so look for something around similar or better ratings. You will need a heatsink!
The original part may be described somewhere in this thread...
The transistor will have it's nomenclature on the top of it. You will have to disassemble and un-solder the circuit board to gain enough access to see which type it is. As Lucas stated, there are several equivalents to the original or better, but there are also plenty of the originals floating around. They're like a light bulb or a fuse in that they don't go bad with age if they're never been used, so don't worry about using a new old stock 40+ year old transistor. I've done it numerous times.
That transistor is nothing special, really. And yes, they're unlikely to be the source of issue.
The markings on these transistors are cryptic at best. Nothing that helps identifying without analysing the circuit itself.
Cryptic as in the numbers can't be read or cryptic as in nothing of the makers' marks makes sense? I've never had any trouble reading the numbers off, typing them into ebay and finding the exact match. They used Siemens, Phillips, and RCA. Each maker has it's own type of nomenclature, but is recognized by many search engines.
By the time the W116 had come along Bosch had switch to Silicone transistors, as the earlier ones used in W108, W109, W113, W114, W115, W100 were Germanium transistors, and had a large failure rate. After mid 1971 is when the switch from Germanium to Silicone was made. So the last of the W108, W109, W113, and the remainder of production of the W114. W115, and W100 had Silicone transistors on the switchgear. What Lucas says has a lot of bearing, in that the transistors are rarely the problem in any Mercedes made after mid 1971.
Quote from: UTn_boy on 07 November 2021, 03:01 PM
Cryptic as in the numbers can't be read or cryptic as in nothing of the makers' marks makes sense?
The latter. The ones I've seen just had internal Bosch part numbers on them, if any at all.
"1120008 7/32" means nothing outside of Bosch, and those parts catalogues are long gone from any resources they make available.
Quote from: UTn_boy on 01 November 2021, 11:35 AM
That's a very early W116 unit. Those black items would have to be a capacitor or some type of diode.....Zener, Schottky, etc.
They look like old tantalums. I have never seen black ones though. I can almost guarantee you that they are not diodes.
Tantalums can and will go bad. They grow dendrites and short between the plates usually. This happens when you go over the rated voltage or reverse them. They need to be replaced after a few decades like electrolytics.
Those old oscilloscopes on your living room floor are packed with 'em.
Quote from: ptashek on 07 November 2021, 09:00 PM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 07 November 2021, 03:01 PM
Cryptic as in the numbers can't be read or cryptic as in nothing of the makers' marks makes sense?
The latter. The ones I've seen just had internal Bosch part numbers on them, if any at all.
"1120008 7/32" means nothing outside of Bosch, and those parts catalogues are long gone from any resources they make available.
I'm confused......Bosch didn't make or use their own silicone transistors in this application. They outsourced them from the aforementioned makers. Is it possible that European market models had switchgears with different insides? I dunno...I'm guessing here.
A photo of a radial black tantalum capacitor is attached.
Quote from: UTn_boy on 08 November 2021, 09:40 PM
Quote from: ptashek on 07 November 2021, 09:00 PM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 07 November 2021, 03:01 PM
Cryptic as in the numbers can't be read or cryptic as in nothing of the makers' marks makes sense?
The latter. The ones I've seen just had internal Bosch part numbers on them, if any at all.
"1120008 7/32" means nothing outside of Bosch, and those parts catalogues are long gone from any resources they make available.
I'm confused......Bosch didn't make or use their own silicone transistors in this application. They outsourced them from the aforementioned makers. Is it possible that European market models had switchgears with different insides? I dunno...I'm guessing here.
It may not have been made by Bosch, but it carries their part number and logo.
I've a video in my archive showing how these boards were made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nejl46f-lfY
The video clearly suggests these transistors were made in-house though.
Hey guys, I'm trying to fix my ign module, can you guys help me?
The R4 capacitor looks bad and the transistor made by bosch code 00119/187 failed the test with the multimeter (This test (https://vetco.net/blog/test-a-transistor-with-a-multimeter/2017-05-04-12-25-37-07#:~:text=Hook%20the%20positive%20lead%20from,OL%E2%80%9D%20(Over%20Limit).) failed at step 3 and step 5), I couldn't find any capacitor with this capacitance nor the same type, is there any suggestions on what I could use as a replacement? And I have no idea what is the spec of this transistor, I saw you trying to figure it out what was a good replacement, but I would like to use another TO3, because others components seems to be good.
Assuming your module is the same as the one I've used for this experiment:
* if you meant C4 capacitor, that one is 8.2uF/20V electrolytic.
* if you meant R4 resistor, that one is 3.3k.
For the transistor, you will need to to find a package equivalent of BUB323Z or BDW42G. The exact spec of the original is unknown. These two above worked as replacements in a prototype.
Quote from: ptashek on 08 April 2022, 01:30 PMAssuming your module is the same as the one I've used for this experiment:
* if you meant C4 capacitor, that one is 8.2uF/20V electrolytic.
* if you meant R4 resistor, that one is 3.3k.
For the transistor, you will need to to find a package equivalent of BUB323Z or BDW42G. The exact spec of the original is unknown. These two above worked as replacements in a prototype.
Mistyped, *C4, right. The only 8,2uF I found was 400v, I don't think that it's a problem, as long as it's more voltage, and not less than 20v. Right?
Do you know if there's any chance I can use BU931? This one was used on Bosch ign modules made here in Brasil, but on 4 cyl cars.
Correct on the capacitor.
For the transistor, you would need to compare it's datasheet with the other two.