Hi guys
This one's been bugging me for a while but has been low on "the list". I am getting a weird noise from the starter intermittently, usually when the car has sat for a while. It is not a grinding noise, rather a higher pitched whining noise. Also it coincides with a "no start" so then I back off the key, and it then always starts on the second attempt with no further noise or drama.
Also, once I take it out for a spin, and then try and restart it after stopping for a coffee or such, it never makes the noise again upon restart, I barely touch the key and it fires immediately and strongly.
I have receipts from the previous owner where both the ring gear and starter were replaced somewhere along the line, so I know for sure it is not the originals.
Quite odd, no? I have researched on sticky Bendix gear and such but I profess not to know much about electrical so maybe the brain trust here can weigh in?
Cheers
I have the same issue. The only thing I can think of is that a starter replacement might be on the horizon. Not sure when. It only seems to happen in cold weather for me and after sitting for a while. It comes across as the starter is seizing until actuated.
Either that or it needs to be lubricated or cleaned, if such a thing is possible.
The Bendix has a bunch of ball bearings that can be cleaned up. They are loose on the spiral that pushes the Bendix out so they are quite fun to do. One starter I fixed was missing several bearings. The Bendix gear was cracked and I managed to find a new one. I have extra ball bearings if you need them.
Quote from: rumb on 28 April 2020, 06:46 AM
The Bendix has a bunch of ball bearings that can be cleaned up. They are loose on the spiral that pushes the Bendix out so they are quite fun to do.
Exactly. Mine, only during cold mornings, used to do that until I changed the bendix (000-151-71-13) which is still available, not at all expensive and so easy to replace. There's a cylindrical insert that wears, causing the bendix to wobble slightly then sticking which makes the starter turn without engaging the flywheel. It's a good opportunity to change or just clean the selenoide and the mechanism/arms that pushes the bendix out. Other failure mode I have seen is flywheel missing or worn teeth. The motor itself is quite robust rarely going bad. Many change the whole starter but most times is the little cheap bendix causing that problem. Fun little project.
Cheers
Thanks guys
I guess I see a starter pull in my future, oh joy :o
Can I try and be lazy and lube the bendix with the starter in situ ;D?
You can be lazy all you want but the starter won't get lubed. :D the Bendix is the part in by the ring gear.
Haha I guess I knew the answer already ;D
BTW way the number for the M100 bendix looks to be 0001516713, here is an old listing for a Bosch part:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Bosch-Flywheel-Gear-Starter-Motor-Clutch-Vw-Golf-Scirocco-Jetta-0001516713-/202870968549?nma=true&si=15SREliFMqiKJE5mGUOi%252BvVx164%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Quote from: rumb on 28 April 2020, 12:16 PM
You can be lazy all you want but the starter won't get lubed. :D the Bendix is the part in by the ring gear.
Right.
If your bendix is suffering (like mine was) from a worn almost none existing brass insert, grease alone won't do the trick. With that piece no making friction with the starter axle, the little clutch/bearings won't engage thus it will turn freely without engaging the flywheel. Again, assuming it's your bendix the problem and not the selenoid/fork/etc. But it's highly probable it's the bendix acting up.
Cheers
Another thing to consider: My blue 6.9 has a flat spot on the flywheel. If the car stops on that spot, I have to tap the key a time or two to get it past it, and then the car starts right up without issue. It makes a similar kind of noise, where it's a brief, high-pitched screech, and then the car starts.
Thanks yes I guess it's time to take a hard look at the ring gear, kind of dreading this tho...It would really suck if the ring gear is toast after already having been replaced by the previous owner. From the paperwork looks like it was done 10K miles ago, sounds a bit early for a ring gear to already be toast ???
OK so clearly I have too much time on my hands, let's blame Covid :)
I just went and did 15 starts from cold, garage is at approx 15C ambient. 1st crank, made the noise, then 2x good, then 4th one bad, then 5 - 10 over the course of the motor warming up to normal operating temp, no issues.
So it would appear that it is temp related, and thus I am going to assume (hope springs eternal ;D) that I have a gummy bendix gear on my hands. Of course it is possible that on all 10 good starts it missed a potential bad spot on the ring gear, but I am going to again hope that this would be unlikely ;)
Anyone with a bad ring gear of course replacement is best, but since the motor tend to stop in the same place most of the time, one could remove the ring gear and put back on 90 or 180 degree offset. That would be a 95% solution.
The bear of course is you get to pull the engine and trans to get to the bugger.
Dodgey bendix Daniel....pulling the starter motor out is chicken feed for you... :'( disconcerting is the suggestion of a recon not so long ago however get into it!!
Thanks all yes I think it's time to get stuck in as they say, let's not be lazy 8)
I had the same problem, was a loose mounting bolt.
You could look at the ring gear through the access cover at the lower rear of the bell housing.
Tim
Quote from: Lance on 29 April 2020, 05:41 PM
I had the same problem, was a loose mounting bolt.
That would cause the symptoms too as the bendix gear would try to engage the flywheel but not quite reaching it, essentially turning in the air. However this failure mode would be independent of air temperature. On the other hand, the wobbling bendix due to bad brass insert or bad clutch/bearings would happen rather during cold days only as the grease is then harder making the clutch sticky.
Cheers
Thanks guys I'm planning on pulling off this bad boy in the next couple of days. Will try and post pics of my findings.
Cheers
OK she's out, delivered the baby with not too much drama, not easy but doable with front end jacked up and secured.
But now, how the hell do you get the bendix out..? Please tell me you don't have to strip the entire starter :o
I hate to say it, but I'm pretty certain you do. It's entirely up to you of course, but I would consider taking it to an auto electrician/ Bosch agent for evaluation or servicing.
Tim
Remove the C clip at the front of the axle. Remove the 3 solenoid screws. Remove back case (2 screws). Remove central little metal cover protecting the back tip of the axle. Tap axle backwards. Check looseness/wobble of bendix and the functionality of the clutch moving in only 1 direction with relative rotations to the axle. Confirm therefore the failure mode. Remove old bendix. Install new one in reverse order. Do not try to simply grease up and re-assembly. If your central brass insert if worn you will have the same symptoms which will force you to do the job twice.
By the way, you ordered and received the new bendix in record time. Maybe MB dealers are functioning over there.
Thanks guys.
Revilla I do not think the M100 starter is the same as the one might have worked on? The Bendix you referenced is not for the M100 engine. I actually had this Bendix from way back, I bought it on a whim a while ago.
I think some of your tips will be the same on this starter, but I fear I will need to strip the thing out completely as Tim has mentioned. Ugh I can see this going sideways...
The tips given above are for your starter. Not a big deal to replace the little bendix. But check its functionality before you remove it. That will ensure you're fixing the actual problem.
OK thanks I was able to strip out the main shaft, but now I still cannot figure out how to take off the current Bendix? My brain is fried I'm off to bed, maybe it'll come to me in a dream ::)
OK so sadly it did not come to me in a dream and feels like a nightmare now :-\ I cannot for the life of me figure out how to release the Bendix from the main shaft, any takers?
Hi Daniel,
The clutch/gear assembly is spring loaded. With the core/axle assy standing, if you slide the gear down you should expose a black C shaped clip near the tip of the shaft. Once visible, it needs to come off. It's hard as it's press fitted. I have used a thin but strong screwdriver to force it out. Careful it will jump so place a rag around so you don't lose it. It might get deformed, but it doesn't matter. We'll get it in shape during reassembly, which is probably the hardest part of all, but doable don't worry.
Alternatively, check the opposite tip for a similar C clip. You can slide core + clutch/gear assy downwards.
Here is another pic, showing the new and old Bendix. Appears the new one is "integrated" whereas the old one has a type of spacer, however it appears to be fused to the unit and not a separate washer, thus the 2 "bearings" have the same thickness.
Nice work,
That doesn't look all that scary which is definitely a good thing. Hopefully this will sort it out.
Tim
Quote from: revilla on 01 May 2020, 11:38 AM
Hi Daniel,
The clutch/gear assembly is spring loaded. With the core/axle assy standing, if you slide the gear down you should expose a black C shaped clip near the tip of the shaft. Once visible, it needs to come off. It's hard as it's press fitted. I have used a thin but strong screwdriver to force it out. Careful it will jump so place a rag around so you don't lose it. It might get deformed, but it doesn't matter. We'll get it in shape during reassembly, which is probably the hardest part of all, but doable don't worry.
Alternatively, check the opposite tip for a similar C clip. You can slide core + clutch/gear assy downwards.
Thanks Robert, I am still confused, heck I am feeling so dumb on this seemingly easy task, ugh :o When you say push down, I cannot see that the bendix unit wants to move down further than in the "pulled back" (solenoid off) position, unless you really have to put a lot of weight on it? And then where to apply force, on the large bearing?
Also, where is the C Clip, is it at the very top under the chrome cap?
Sorry to clog up the board with this little caper fellas, but I am updating as I get more frustrated with hopeful resolution, maybe other can learn from my shenanigans ;D
Robert, maybe I am getting confused with "up" and "down" relatively speaking. When I stand the shaft up (90 degrees), with the cog/teeth of the bendix on the bench, then I am pulling the large ring unit down towards the bench against the force of the spring. Then I see a groove where I guess a snap ring would sit, but I do not see any snap ring there. If I pull it down further I see a ring/crown of sorts with the small ball bearings visible, so I am not sure if I need to keep pulling it down even further? The spring is quite firm of course so it won't be easy to keep pulling it down? I would post a pic but I need both hands to pull the large ring down towards the bench.
Sorry for the confusion Daniel. I should have been more clear. In my tips above, the full assy in your 1st picture should be standing on the bench/vise with the gear on top. Then you will turn (it's helicoidal on the inside) and push downwards the gear (not the clutch disc) to reveal the groove/clip. Or, you could turn the full assy upside-down and see if you have a clip on the opposite tip of the main shaft (far from the gear tip). So, if easier, you could then slide out the core/winding unit out and after the clutch/bendix assy.
Good luck. Keep up posted please.
OK here is what I see, the "top" is where the little chrome cap is (where my finger is pointing), how will you get the teeth/cog to drop down here, tap with a socket? Might break the teeth then? Does the c clip sit under this cap? Then second pic, this is the opposite end, there is only a large c lip which sat underneath the "grease cap", it sat in the groove visible and it dropped out when I took the grease cap off, I can see no other way to remove the shaft from this end, it appears a unit. Still confused :-\
I see. Is that 'chrome cap' machined on the shaft? Or is it really a cap? If it's a cap, it means it can be removed. It will deform but you can get it back in shape securely during re-assembly. Obviously the gear won't be able to pass that cap. But if removed, it should. By memory there should still be a C clip under the cap that retains the gear on the shaft.
I seem to remember there are actually 2 Bosch part numbers for the 6.9. Perhaps they changed the retaining design from C clip to Cap (don't know). Nobody has done this job before?
The cap is loose for sure, not machined on. I am highly doubtful that there can be a c clip under this cap though?
Finally success! That cap is just a dust cap. No c clip.
I just pulled and turned in the end and then the unit comes off the shaft, not sure why it did not happen before, quite odd...
:)
Did you check the old gear was wobbling on the shaft?
Brass insert present? Worn?
Clutch turning in one direction only?
That's important because it'll confirm your failure mode (motot/shaft turning but not the gear). If you venture, you can apply 12V to the selenoide while securely holding the gear to see if the clutch works. My theory is that it works 1/5 and worse on cold weather like it used to happen to me.
You're almost there Daniel!
Thanks a lot for your help! Not sure what you mean by brass insert?
I could not detect much of any wobble. But...my new spare bendix does not appear to want to go onto the shaft, even sans the small ball bearings, what the heck? I guess I need to buy a MB unit and cut to the chase on this bendix saga.
OK scratch that, seems like it just has a lot tighter clearance than the old one, I guess a sure sign that the old one is done for.
Okie dokie, I got the old bendix out and the new one in. "Ja well, no fine" as we say in South Africa.
But now the solenoid is fighting me, argh this bloody starter will be the end of me!
I am really not sure how the solenoid works to be honest, but what I see is the "fork" sticking out, visible in the solenoid housing. Ok great, but how does the pin/spring of the solenoid actually move the fork? And does the spring "face" of the solenoid pin have to face a certain way?
I am having trouble getting the solenoid back in so I think it is getting jammed up somehow?
Also, the fork is not under tension, which is odd, no? What I mean is I can manually make the bendix move out by pulling the fork, but it does not snap back under tension, huh?
Oh man I'm lost, now I see why auto electricians ask an arm and a leg and why I have always stuck my head in the sand with electrical, "no mas" I tell ya!
Any sage advise appreciated ;D
OK, I'm down but not out ;D The champ is here! OK maybe not...
I figured out that you have to hook the fork onto the solenoid pin, DUH! Man I'm thick lately, let's blame Covid - brain.
Bench tested it, yay it works! But...even though it throws out very crisp, it does not always wind all the way back in, I guess this is a problem..? I fired it about 10 times, and half the time it was about 2 - 3mm from flush. What gives :-\
I took the starter to a local auto - electrical outfit for them to bench test. They said it's A - OK, and apparently as the bendix is new it might be a bit tardy to spin back completely into the housing on the bench as the tolerances are now tighter, however once the engine spins it out after firing it should rapidly return to the housing. Sounds plausible and I'm inclined to defer to the experts on this one. So far so good...
It's alive ;D! Dropped the starter back in today and she fired up like a champ, first try, yay!
Thanks to all for all the encouragement and tips. If any other 6.9 owner needs some tips on the intricacies of this Bendix I can share. It is a bit tricky to swap out because of the ball bearing arrangement. I knew I stumbled on a good shop for the bench test when the first words out of the guy's mouth were:"This is the one with the little ball bearings, are you sure you got them all back?!" ;D
Cheers