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New to the w116 and M117.. need a little help gauging value

Started by mabbonizio, 14 May 2017, 08:23 PM

mabbonizio

Hi Folks,

I'm new to the w116 but not Mercedes.  i currently have a 1954 300 Cabriolet and a 1982 240D and pretty much do all of the work on my cars myself.

I looked at a 78 450 SEL with cloth interior today. Pretty nice car with excellent paint and chrome and about zero rust. Only catch is that it does not start.

The current owner bought it from an estate and I believe it sat for a while inside. Car has about 108,000 miles on it and really does appear to be very mint with the exception of a few tears in the cloth driver seat.

Seller has the car listed for 2K and says he replaced the fuel pump as well as some ignition parts to try and coax it to start.

I'm having trouble gauging if this car is actually worth 2k and could use the opinions of some more knowledgable folks. Engine oil looked okay in color but smelled a bit like fuel. There was no coolant in the expansion tank but I couldn't tell if there was any in the rad. Trans fluid looked great. Overall the car appears to have been well cared for but I am a little weary of taking on a massively expensive diy project. 


Heres a pic of the car:

rumb

I spent about $1500 getting my fuel system in shape, including rebuilding/replacing the fuel distributor and WUR,AAV, pumps, hoses, filter, and injector seals.

$2K is a decent price for what you have shown, however you could easily spent another $4K fixing everything on it.  40 year old cars, the rubber perishes.

Offer them $1500 and explain what it costs to repair a neglected fuel system.Non running cars are worth way less than running because all the unknowns.
'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

UTn_boy

Take advantage of where you live, too.  If you live out in the bush prices are much much lower.  Also, take advantage of the color of the car.  Icon gold isn't a color that most people enjoy, but can be a helpful fact when negotiating. 
1966 250se coupe`,black/dark green leather
1970 600 midnight blue/parchment leather
1971 300sel 6.3,papyrus white/dark red leather
1975 450se, pine green metallic/green leather
1973 300sel 4.5,silver blue metallic/blue leather
1979 450sel 516 red/bamboo

mabbonizio

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback.

Well i took the plunge and purchased the car for $1,250.00

Heres my cross post from peach parts:

Car was owned originally by a doctor who passed away where it was left to languish (presumably in doors).It does not run but I purchased it because it has mint paint, no rust, and 100k miles. The original Mercedes service booklet is even stamped with oil changes up to 90k miles from the local Mercedes dealer. I bought the car from a guy who bought the car from the original owner. He cleaned out the tank, replaced the in tank screen, filter, and pump. Still couldn't get it to start.

Yesterday I flushed all the injectors and got it to start and run briefly. Then it began bogging down and eventually died.  At no point could I operate the throttle pedal. Today I found that lots of clean fresh fuel was entering the distributor but none was actually making it out of it. The line to the tank is clear.

Figured i'd pull the fuel distributor and take a stab at carefully rebuilding it. upon installing it back in the car and trying to restart, the distributor sent so much fuel to the first four cylinders that it actually hydrolocked the engine :eek: I stupidly thought the battery was dying and tried to start the engine about 3 or 4 times before I thought it might be locked up. 

I then pulled the plugs and let it blow the excess fuel out of the cylinders. After that I pulled the number one injector and the number 5 injector to compare them (kept them attached to the distributor and fed them into bottles). As I suspected the number 1 injector (and presumably 2, 3, and 4) was spraying more than double the amount of fuel as number 5. So I can conclude that I believe my issues are with the fuel distributor, it appears to be sending an unequal amount of fuel to different cylinders.

I'm wondering if anyone has successfully rebuilt this thing themselves (I've read about 5 different DIYS) or if anyone has sent theirs out for rebuilding with good results. Also hoping no rods were bent when the motor locked up :eek::mad: .. thinking maybe not since it was just the power of the starter turning the engine?

Whew.. apologies if that makes no sense I think I've inhaled too many fuel vapors today.

thoughts..?


rumb

CIS Flowtech http://www.cisflowtech.com/

Send in your WUR also for them to check. Not only do they rebuild, but they calibrate to your car's specification.

While they have it, empty your gas tank and inspect/clean, and replace your filter and check/replace (all the ones by the fuel pump)  your fuel lines, It's also probably worth installing a new fuel pump while you are down there.

You did well with your purchase price, now with the savings you can get your car in shape.  Consider cleaning or replacing your injectors/seals also.
'68 250S
'77 6.9 Euro
'91 300SE,
'98 SL500
'14 CLS550,
'16 AMG GTS
'21 E450 Cabrio

s class

K-jet injectors are inexpensive and are best replaced, rather than attempting to revitalise them.

Fuel delivery rate problems are all too common on the cast iron FD units that have stood for a while.  Varnish and rust can conspire to block/restrict the metering slits, or worse, cause pitting on the output valve seats.  This is what I think has happened in your case - the pitting results in unregulated delivery from one or more ports. 

I built a device to test these units, and I've tested dozens in the last couple of years.  I would only buy a reconditioned unit if the seller can give proof of bench-test results. 

https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/my-k-jet-test-bench/






[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL

mabbonizio

Quote from: s class on 23 May 2017, 07:42 AM
K-jet injectors are inexpensive and are best replaced, rather than attempting to revitalise them.

Fuel delivery rate problems are all too common on the cast iron FD units that have stood for a while.  Varnish and rust can conspire to block/restrict the metering slits, or worse, cause pitting on the output valve seats.  This is what I think has happened in your case - the pitting results in unregulated delivery from one or more ports. 

I built a device to test these units, and I've tested dozens in the last couple of years.  I would only buy a reconditioned unit if the seller can give proof of bench-test results. 

https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/my-k-jet-test-bench/



any recommendations of where to get a rebuilt unit?

s class

As mentioned by rumb, Larry Fletcher at CIS Flowtech is probably the most reliable name in the business. 


[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL

mabbonizio

Quote from: s class on 24 May 2017, 03:52 AM
As mentioned by rumb, Larry Fletcher at CIS Flowtech is probably the most reliable name in the business.

Apologies.. I missed that.

Okay, I've got a refurbished fuel distributor on order. Decided to pull the intake off and clean it out only to find the air slide valve leaking coolant through the intake and getting sucked into the cylinders!

Several had some coolant in them.  Compression test went as follows on a cold engine with throttle closed. I also noticed the number 3 cylinder had an above average reading and the most water came out of it when turning the motor over without the plugs in it. I'm thinking this reading was high because of the liquid in it.

1 140
2 145
3 170
4 150
5 150
6 150
7 140
8 145

s class

Well done, glad you found that coolant leak timeously. 


[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL

mabbonizio

Alright, had a very productive day.

I went through and temporarily j-b welded any large cracks in the air hoses, re-sealed the air slide valve, and installed the rebuilt fuel distributor. Car fired right up.  I then adjusted the mixture til it seemed about right and actually was able to let it sit and run for a while. The more the motor runs the smoother it gets. Took it out for a spin at the end of the day. Whew this thing is quick and smooth compared to my 240D!

Cleaned up the engine bay a little bit as well.



Link to vid of engine running https://vimeo.com/219437183

daantjie

Sounds happy well done! The 450 is a very nice V8. Just enough power and very smooth when dialled in.
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

mabbonizio

Question,

I pulled one of the valve covers today to take a look at the timing chain and guides. One guide was a bit loose (would slide side to side on its pin).

The chain was not loose at all. Can I get away with just replacing the plastic guides?

daantjie

Quote from: mabbonizio on 29 May 2017, 07:19 PM
Question,

I pulled one of the valve covers today to take a look at the timing chain and guides. One guide was a bit loose (would slide side to side on its pin).

The chain was not loose at all. Can I get away with just replacing the plastic guides?
Measure the stretch of the chain. But if it were me I would for sure wind in a new chain and install a new tensioner. Not a huge job and good insurance. You will also find a boost in hp as you advance the cams by virtue of the new chain.
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

s class

It's normal for the three upper guides to be able to slide back and forward a little on their mounting pins.  The danger comes when they get old and brittle, and become prone to breaking.  Such breakage becomes more probable if the chain is stretched and can flap around on startup before the tensioner has pressurised properly.


[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL