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Garage => Mechanicals => Topic started by: Coesterg on 06 September 2020, 10:15 AM

Title: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 06 September 2020, 10:15 AM
Hi everyone,

Considering to buy a Mercedes w116 450 SEL 6.9
Attached is the datacard.

What puzzles me is, that it says 340 SEL??
Never heard of that before.

Seller also says it's without air suspension?
I'm pretty sure that all 6.9 where with air suspension, so it might have been taken out for some reason?

Anyone who can tell more out of the attached datacard?

Thanx everyone and by the way I'm located in Denmark/Scandinavia.

Best regards
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: daantjie on 06 September 2020, 01:04 PM
Hmmm yes that is odd ???

I do see the 100.985 motor on the data card, which is the 6.9 motor, so that looks good. 

Also, the 6.9 does not have air suspension, rather hydropneumatic, which is a combination of nitrogen damping supported by a hydraulic system, so even though there is "air" involved, it is not the same as found on other Benzes such as the 6.3 and 600.

Best thing would be to see the car in the flesh.  Look for the hydro suspension components and make sure the big V8 is in there, with the dry sump tank as well.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 06 September 2020, 01:50 PM
Hi Daniel and other readers,

Ok that fine with the engine then thanx Daniel.
I'm told the car has been imported from Abu Dhabi to Germany and then the seller in DK bought it.

I will go see it but there are no hydro suspension components only springs and shock absorbers!
That is what puzzles me as well that strange 340 SEL thing.

Regards from Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: revilla on 06 September 2020, 02:45 PM
Hello,

Yes, there are documented cases where the owner decided to remove the hydro system after dealing with the frustration to make it work sustainably.  When it works it works beautifully but when it doesn't it's known to present serious challenges to diagnose and repair. Can be costly too. Search the forum and you'll see.

Good luck with your search.

Robert
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: floyd111 on 07 September 2020, 10:07 AM
 :P I for one am extremely curious what's up with the 340SEL thing.
I can't imagine anyone issuing data cards at MB making that mistake.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 10:13 AM
Copy that floyd111, it's not a MB happit to make mistakes:-)
@All; Anyone knowing anything?
As a supplement here is a picture of the aircon dash.
Doesn't look like a 6.9 Aircon instrument right?
Rgds Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: raueda1 on 07 September 2020, 10:40 AM
Quote from: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 10:13 AM
Copy that floyd111, it's not a MB happit to make mistakes:-)
@All; Anyone knowing anything?
As a supplement here is a picture of the aircon dash.
Doesn't look like a 6.9 Aircon instrument right?
Rgds Casper
That's the aircon panel on a euro car, no problem there.  Mine has the same.  Be glad, the automatic AC version was a horror show.  Is there a knob or hole in the dash wood directly above the steering wheel?  If so that would indicate a 6.9.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 11:00 AM
Hi Dave,

Thanx, and here is a picture properly showing the knob you're mentioning?

Rgds
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: daantjie on 07 September 2020, 11:35 AM
Nope no dash knob thus no hydro suspension.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: floyd111 on 07 September 2020, 11:36 AM
I did a bit of checking, and apparently, mistakes, typos on data cards are more common than I thought.
This is what the data card says, except for the 340SEL:

Paintwork; 404 Milan Brown Metallic (such a shame)
Interior trim code: 905 Parchment velour

260 Elimination of type designation on rear lid (this means no "450sel on trunk lid)
261 Elimination of model designation on rear lid (this means no "6.9" on trunk lid)
401 Single seats up front
410 Electric sun roof
631 First Aid Box
640 Forged aluminum Bundt wheels with radial ply tyres
812 Rear mounted loud speaker(s)

Everything is pretty standard for a 6.9, if anything it's a very sparsely optioned 6.9.  The only thing I find odd is that it has rear speakers, but the car was a radio delete car......meaning the car came without a radio.  If the car had come with a radio then two things would be present

1) The "51" option block would have a number in it, and/or
2) The "Hinweis" block would have a number in it.  (this would be for special request brand of radio such as Grundig, Blaupunkt, Phillips, or Telefunken)

Neither are present, so I have to assume that either another mistake was made, (common) or by 1977 all 6.9 cars came with rear speakers whether a radio was present or not. 

How much of this card data is correct, when comparing it to the car at hand, Casper?
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 12:06 PM
Hi,

Thank you all, extremely useful info:-)
Here are my answers.

Paintwork; 404 Milan Brown Metallic (such a shame) -> Casper: The car is Black now:-(
Interior trim code: 905 Parchment velour -> Casper: The car has cognac leather seats now

260 Elimination of type designation on rear lid (this means no "450sel on trunk lid)-> Casper-> Correct
261 Elimination of model designation on rear lid (this means no "6.9" on trunk lid)-> Casper-> It has a 6.9 on the trunk lid
401 Single seats up front -> Casper- Correct
410 Electric sun roof -> Casper- Correct
631 First Aid Box -> Casper- Correct
640 Forged aluminum Bundt wheels with radial ply tyres -> Casper- correct
812 Rear mounted loud speaker(s) -> Casper- Correct

Everything is pretty standard for a 6.9, if anything it's a very sparsely optioned 6.9.  The only thing I find odd is that it has rear speakers, but the car was a radio delete car......meaning the car came without a radio.  If the car had come with a radio then two things would be present

1) The "51" option block would have a number in it, and/or
2) The "Hinweis" block would have a number in it.  (this would be for special request brand of radio such as Grundig, Blaupunkt, Phillips, or Telefunken)

Neither are present, so I have to assume that either another mistake was made, (common) or by 1977 all 6.9 cars came with rear speakers whether a radio was present or not.

How much of this card data is correct, when comparing it to the car at hand, Casper?
-> Conclusion: A 6.9 without the special suspension, repainted, new upholstery, and radio is not in the car either. Makes it hard to trust the 81.000 km on the clock as well
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 12:09 PM
Pictures of the new interior and the loud speakers
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: raueda1 on 07 September 2020, 12:30 PM
Strikes me as a rather strange story.  The dashboard story suggests that if somebody removed the original suspension then they also replaced the wooden strip.  Why go to that trouble.  There DO seem to be very lightly optioned 6.9's out there, especially early ones.  Mine is a good example - MBtex, no sunroof, manual AC, black console (like your case, no wood). A good picture or 2 of the engine would dispel all doubts.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 12:44 PM
Hi Dave,
You're right and the only pictures I don't have at the moment are the ones from the engine.
Didn't go check the car out yet before I learned more, which you now all helped me with.
Many thanx, I think it's not a 6.9 for me so better wait until a more original comes up.
Best regards
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: daantjie on 07 September 2020, 01:57 PM
Quote from: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 12:44 PM
Hi Dave,
You're right and the only pictures I don't have at the moment are the ones from the engine.
Didn't go check the car out yet before I learned more, which you now all helped me with.
Many thanx, I think it's not a 6.9 for me so better wait until a more original comes up.
Best regards
Casper

I think this is wise.  These are rare cars but not THAT rare.  So if you are patient you wil find a nice one.  As always it's better to get a nice one from the start and pay up front, rather than getting a rough one which takes a lot  more money to get right.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: rumb on 07 September 2020, 02:01 PM
I'd be interested in seeing the VIN on the firewall.

There is an awful lot strange with this car that does not make sense.

To change out an entire interior including door panels and trim is no small feat as well as $$$$
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 02:44 PM
Agree it seems to be somehow restored/modified during the years for some reasons.
I don't have the VIN on the firewall but it will probably show crazy stuff also:-)
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: raueda1 on 07 September 2020, 06:54 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 07 September 2020, 01:57 PM
Quote from: Coesterg on 07 September 2020, 12:44 PM
Hi Dave,
You're right and the only pictures I don't have at the moment are the ones from the engine.
Didn't go check the car out yet before I learned more, which you now all helped me with.
Many thanx, I think it's not a 6.9 for me so better wait until a more original comes up.
Best regards
Casper

I think this is wise.  These are rare cars but not THAT rare.  So if you are patient you wil find a nice one.  As always it's better to get a nice one from the start and pay up front, rather than getting a rough one which takes a lot  more money to get right.
Yes, this ^^.  Agree 1000% on all counts.  And that whole car sounds very fishy.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: floyd111 on 08 September 2020, 04:04 AM
I may be a layman, but a 6.9 without hydro never happened from factory. There is no knob, and both the interior and paintjob have been switched out, as well as the dash. -according to the data card. Really? In what world?
Las Vegas odds on that car being a whatever non-6.9 W116, and somebody -at best- put a 6.9 engine in there. The rest is all semantics. Anyone's guess. Stolen, rebuilt, re-licenced-in-error compiled, modified. I don't think it matters much, does it?
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 08 September 2020, 04:25 AM
Hi, Agree and conclusions are pretty solid from this forum.
Leave it and look for something else:-)
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Nabstud on 08 September 2020, 04:29 AM
You still have to get the vin and a pic of the motor, you can't leave us hanging like this!!!!!
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: floyd111 on 08 September 2020, 08:49 AM
I found a picture of his engine bay.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: raueda1 on 08 September 2020, 09:52 AM
Quote from: floyd111 on 08 September 2020, 08:49 AM
I found a picture of his engine bay.
;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 08 September 2020, 11:39 AM
 Ha Ha there is also a lot of humour in the forum here:-)
Alright I'll try to get hold of some engine bay pictures and VIN
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 22 October 2020, 02:46 AM
Hi folks,

I gave up on the 6.9 we talked about in this thread.
But found a new one and more interesting I think.

Can one of you help me and tell after the attachment
how it was equipped, which colour and so one? Many thanx.

Here is the link to the car with pictures etc
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/mercedes-w116-450sel-6-9-s-klasse-1979-kein-w126-45tkm-bj-1979/1534527359-216-20397

Picture might be a little unclear.
I read it like 116 036 12 00 40 29

Thanx
Casper

Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 22 October 2020, 02:51 AM
And here is a second picture with other car data.
Seller does not have the datacard so until now this is what I have.
Rgds Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: BCK1963 on 22 October 2020, 03:30 AM
Hi Casper,

this car has been advertized for quite a while on mobile.de in Germany and I was wondering why such a low mileage car was so cheap and stayed advertized so long.
The condition of the interior fits with the low mileage but I am suspicious about a 'degree of wear of the engine of 16 %'. First, what does that mean?  Has it got only 84 % of the original compression? I have never seen such a type of rating. Second, 16 % after 45.000 km seems a lot to me. I'd press the seller to clarify on that.
The door panels with the stripes are strange. I have seen those only one a former prototype for MB board members which was portayed several years ago in a german classic car magazine. The car runs on tires which are not allowed for it in Germany, but that may not be important for you. No service documents on such a car would make me suspicious.
But if all fits with what is behind the identification numbers, and the engine story is sound, I think it is a great car for that price.    .... although a bit too much blue on it imho :-).
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 22 October 2020, 05:36 AM
Hi,
I do wonder about that test too and don't know how it works.
Normally I would go for a compression test as the first thing?

Yes a little strange that papers are gone after if everything else is ok!
Difficult for me right now to assess the market, something wrong with the car or market is just standing still right now?

Let's see if other in the fine forum can help me crack the details on the vehicle data,
if they don't match reality like colour etc we'll already have some answer.

Take care
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: BCK1963 on 22 October 2020, 06:08 AM
Hi Casper,
sorry, I didn't sign with my name.
I think that 6.9s in Germany are not as popular as they are e.g. in AU or NZ. That's why I am happy to have found that forum.
The image of the 6.9 in Germany has been beaten to death by classic car journals who wrote horror stories about the costs for engine and hydro repair. They tend to refer to Mercedes factory prices and to the company Kienle which is apparently one of the most famous MB restorers in the world. Its prices are also for the famous.

Take a look at mobile.de and you will find a whole bunch of 6.9 for sale with many cars being overpriced and many with apparent flaws. Good ones are rare and hard to find.

btw:  Your car in eBay Kleinanzeigen has an electric rear bench and a strange elevation behind the head rests. Maybe someone here can tell if this is original with the electric version? The parcel shelf seems to be not original as the knob to lift the cover and the plastic rim around it is missing. Furthermore: The stripes on the upper bench section between the headrests is missing. Or am I missing something?

     Regards     Bernd
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 22 October 2020, 06:39 AM
Hi Bernd,

Yes it's a great forum for such discussions also.
You're probably right about Germany and it is of course a special car to look after.

I think Kienle also are into to the Gullwing and stuff like that.
But buttomline is I'm trying to find a low milage 6.9 not imported from US and budget is max 38teur

Looking at these facts I thought the 6.9 we're discussing right now is best option on Mobile.

The important details you mentioned is where I need help, and don't know the model enough to tell.
But the more unoriginal fitted compared with no service record and claimed low milage does make you wonder.

Rgds
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: ptashek on 22 October 2020, 05:45 PM
Quote from: Coesterg on 22 October 2020, 02:51 AM
And here is a second picture with other car data.

OK, let's give it a try.

116036 12 4029 = 6.9, auto, LHD, chassis #4029
931H = Magnetite Blue Metallic, paint supplier was Dr. Herbert (Standox these days)
629 = French market version (should have yellow reflector, no?)
636 = being a 1979, this code meant elimination of warning triangle (on trunk door)
812 = four speakers
877 = rear reading lamp (on C-pillar panels)
992 = ?
410 = electric sunroof
510 = radio (either Becker Mexico, or Becker Monte Carlo)
531 = automatic antenna
592 = laminated heat insulating safety glass all-round (green), windscreen with band filter, heated rear pane

I've no details on code 992. Also, the glass on the car doesn't match spec on the plate. The rear pane is definitely not heated, and the front has no band filter.

The curtains may be original, but they were not specified on the data plate normally.

The door panel, and parcel shelf have almost certainly been rebuilt. W116s did not have door cards like this from factory, the parcel shelf was not velour carpet. Why would anyone need to rebuild either of those on a 45kkm car is another question... That engine bay doesn't look like a 45kkm engine bay either.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: BCK1963 on 23 October 2020, 12:53 AM
Code 992 says   'weitere unvercodete Sonderausführungen, siehe Produktionsauftrag',   additional uncoded special orders, see production order.

992 on my car was 'Stereo speakers with fader between front and rear, customer supplied speakers.

      Bernd
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: floyd111 on 23 October 2020, 03:41 AM
In german, the test report seems to record 16% compression loss and 10% alternator capacity loss.
I would think the former driver(s) might have liked the kickdown a lot, and then I guess that 16% compression loss could happen after 45000km.
These old engines weren't precision builds like today. Lots of CC, lot's of cylinders, lots of gas, and the ones that got kicked around a lot, like the ones in high performance cars would, are famous for losing a lot of horses along the way.
I wouldn't be surprised if this car was a middle-east re-import. Lots of chaos over there, and paperwork could get lost there, I guess.
For this type of money, though, you'd want a full report, a professional friend and a serious test ride.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: w116john on 23 October 2020, 10:42 AM

here is a nice 6.9  for sale in London, LHD originally from Paris nice french headlights.

curiously my car had the 992 fader option as well and an electric aerial but no radio.

enjoy the search.

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1227576
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Rolo on 23 October 2020, 02:09 PM
That car looks very nice.  I'm surprised to see all the non hydraulic suspension work.  Mine may need soon.  Alignment is wonky.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: daantjie on 23 October 2020, 03:24 PM
Quote from: w116john on 23 October 2020, 10:42 AM

here is a nice 6.9  for sale in London, LHD originally from Paris nice french headlights.

curiously my car had the 992 fader option as well and an electric aerial but no radio.

enjoy the search.

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1227576

Indeed that's a nice one, I love silver over black.  The seats have a nice worn - in look to them as well, just needs a nice Leatherique treatment ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 24 October 2020, 02:57 AM
Dear All,

Thank you once again for a fantastic forum.

I'm now even more prepared to go more into detailed dialogue with the seller.
Will keep you posted on progress/or the opposite.

I'm not so scared about the few non original features,
questions for me is more the claimed km vs reality!

Talk to you all again soon
Rgds
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 26 October 2020, 04:17 AM
Hi everyone,

A short update from my side.

Seller:
The blue 6.9 is imported from Dubai and no service documents exists.
So km can't be documented.

Seller also says:
The door cards are in leather and not velour carpet.
I don't know if the door panel and parcel shelfs are rebuilt. If it were rebuilt then by the previous ownership.

Well that's it and the closets I get.
What do you think? If the car would be close to where I leave, then I would take a look, but it's quite far!

Rgds
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: BCK1963 on 28 October 2020, 12:32 PM
Hello Casper,

I'd say:  If you don't have the chance to check the car on site with a specialist: forget it.
Don't know if people in Dubai drive and care better or worse than others, but with a car with zero documents and records you have to be prepared to face major expenses. This may be ok with a Volkswagen beetle but not with a 6.9, unless you want exactly this car for whatever reason and money doesn't count.

Furthermore: A 6.9 cannot be compared with a 300 SL or a Ferrari GTO as far as the necessity of a sound history at the time you may want to resell it. But I think the more expensive even a 6.9 gets the more relevant will be its history.
If you intend to own it for 20 years, ok. But if you want to sell it in a few years for whatever reason, you may have problems to get money back.
Again: If money is of no relevance, then go ahead.
But this is my personal opinion.

     Good luck   Bernd
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 03 November 2020, 03:15 AM
Hi Bernd and all other in the forum,

I can go down and check it it's one days ride from here.
But you're right in your observations and I really prefer one with bulletproof history.

Will watch the Internet and see what comes up.

Take care all
Casper
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: w116john on 03 November 2020, 04:51 PM
hope ye don't mind me asking an unrelated question

but can anyone tell me if the alloys on the advert i posted are the aftermarket 15 inch alloys? i think they were discussed last year and at about 750 a set
TUV approved etc. maxi lite i think.

if they are they look better than i thought they would.



https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1227576
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: ptashek on 03 November 2020, 06:28 PM
Quote from: w116john on 03 November 2020, 04:51 PM

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1227576

Yes, definitely Maxi Lite: https://shop-eu.maxilite.ch/Barock-Style-7x15
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: w116john on 03 November 2020, 06:52 PM
hi lukas

they are sold out, not that i was really in the market at the moment.

they look better on the car than i expected.

john
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: BCK1963 on 04 November 2020, 02:05 AM
Hi John and Lucas,

the Maxilite Webpage says that the alloys will be again available from 14th december.
Are they approved for the 6.9?  I heard that in Germany 15'' alloys were available but not approved for the 6.9. I wonder if non-Germans care for that?!

      Berrnd
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: BCK1963 on 04 November 2020, 02:14 AM
I meant that I heard that These alloys were not approved in Germany. This is why I asked if People outside Germany would care?!
No offence intended  ::)

I have emailed MaxiLite for that.
   
        Bernd
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: ptashek on 04 November 2020, 03:37 AM
Quote from: BCK1963 on 04 November 2020, 02:14 AM
I meant that I heard that These alloys were not approved in Germany. This is why I asked if People outside Germany would care?!
No offence intended  ::)

I have emailed MaxiLite for that.

From what I understand, they have some TÜV approvals, but not KBA approvals, and need to listed on the "Fahrzeugbrief" as special equipment. I don't think people outside of Germany would typically care, but a KBA approval is a good indicator of being fit for purpose.
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: AndreasF on 04 November 2020, 05:51 AM
Hello Casper,

Lechfeld is in the very south of Germany, which is really far from Denmark. You could pay an expert to inspect the car on site and then give you a neutral report. Advantage: You don't have to travel for nothing and you know the weak points. Dekra (German expert organisation, similar to TÜV) offers something like this for classic cars: https://www.dekra-classic-services.de/oldtimer-dienstleistungen/wertgutachten-oldtimer.html
If the seller rejects the expert inspection, you can surely guess why.
If the car is still interesting after the inspection, you could go there and have a look at it personally.

Maxlite rims: I have no experience with Maxlite rims, but I have looked into the TÜV certificate for my ATS rims, the 6.9 litre is not allowed there either. Probably because of the load capacity?

Greeting Andreas
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: BCK1963 on 04 November 2020, 07:08 AM
Just received an answer from Maxilite which says that the 6.9 would be included in their assessment.

       Bernd
Title: Re: Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9?
Post by: Coesterg on 12 November 2020, 02:34 AM
Hi Andreas,

Thank you for a super idea, which I will consider.
Right now I'm selling two other of my old MB's and the idea is to use the money for a 6.9.

So I'm still looking around.
However difficult to find right ones (colour) and history.

Take care
Rgds Casper