Mandated Methanol in the U.S.

[mineson]

For some reason the politicians in the U.S. have grasped at Methanol as a renewable fuel, and it's getting harder and harder to avoid it.  Many states have mandated its use, and I imagine that eventually 'pure' gas will go the way of leaded fuel.

Having read through this post: http://forum.w116.org/index.php/topic,281.0.html on unleaded with a nice tangent on the damages of Ethanol, I'd like to open the discussion on how to get around this problem.

Last summer, I noticed a hesitation from my 450SEL after filling up with 93 octane (the highest one can get here).  I wasn't sure what was up, so I checked my wires, distributor cap & rototr, fixed some small vacume leaks, and replaced the ballast resistors (I believe these are also called "Suppressors"....?) without getting rid of the hesitation. 

I thought I might have gum in the fuel system, so I got some Redline SI-1 (Since I was already at the Redline store buying CV2).  The Redline worked like a charm for fixing the hesitation, but it returned with my next fill-up until I added more.  Since they probably started adding it last summer, I've concluded that the Methanol is the likely cause of hesitiation.

Redline SI-1 is good quality, and one $12 bottle treats 200 Gallons, so it's the best fuel treatment I have found.  I was OK with using this stuff forever untill I read in the post referenced above that Ethanol can eat through a late model fuel system.  If Methanol does the same, then it can't be good for long-term use, even with the treatment.... 

Considering that the Gas Station only sells one option now, what can I do to cancel the harmful effects of the Methanol that I am forced to use?

-Matt

[Nutz]

If they are going to start adding methanol,then my days of driving the old 116's are over.Methanol will corrode the D and K jetronic fuel systems and destroy the D Jet fuel pump.Time for me to start fabbing up plans for methanol friendly components i.e. fuel lines,fuel pump,injectors and etc 

[michaeld]

Are you sure we're talking about methanol, and not ethanol?
Ethanol is a very popular idea as a (relatively) cleaner burning, renewable resource, which is made from the enormous corn surpluses American farmers are growing.  I myself think it's a twisted joke, as it costs more energy to produce the stuff than it creates!  In Brazil, they are having success with their ethanol; but they are making theirs from sugar cane - which has a lot more energy potential than corn.

In California, one of the reasons we are continuing to have high fuel prices is because of the unique blends mandated by the commissars of the People's Republic.  But the additive here is ethanol.  We do have some buses and some fleet vehicles which have been converted to run on methane.

Maybe you can start a lobbyist organization called the PPfC ("People for Poop-free Cars") or something?  Let me now give you my chief-ingredient-in-methane-eating grin: 

BTW, our 450SELs are low compression, and do quite well on 87 octane.  I do agree that regularly running a quality fuel-injector cleaner is a good idea; it is quite possibly the ONLY additive that really does what it says it will do.

[davestlouis]

We have several gasoline refineries locally, and I seem to recall that I read somewhere that there are dozens of fuel formulations just in the midwest, to meet local clean air guidelines...fuel in St. Louis smells different than fuel just across the river in Illinois, and I used to have a Toyota that ran noticeably better on Illinois gas than the MO gas.  I see 10% ethanol in just about every fuel I can buy locally.  The rising fuel prices are a bite in the behind...$2.87/gal for 93 octane tonight.  I realize that is cheap by world standards, but driving 30 miles each way to work in a car that gets 18 or so miles per gallon gets expensive.  I do chuckle when I think about my evil X-wife..she has a late-90's GMC Suburban with the 42 gallon tank...40 gal X $3.00 =$120...serves her right!

[alabbasi]

I can never understand why the US has to go a different way to the rest of the world. The whole world has been dealing with the high cost of fuel for many years and their solution is Diesel. The US things that Hybrid is the better answer.

Gas engines all around the world are being converted to LPG, the US thinks that Ethanol is the way to go. Same with the cell phones. The whole world has one standard (GSM) and the US has about seven.

I love living here and I love the American "can do" attitude to solving problems but I could never figure out these decisions. As someone said on another forum, a Toyota Prius can do 60mpg around town, and a Mercedes Benz E320CDI can do 60mpg at 100mph.

60mpg isn't really a big deal, the Citroen AX Diesel was able to get more then that back in late 80's.

[s class]

Here in South Africa we have been using alcohol laced fuels for a number of years now.  I'm not sure what the ratio of  ethanol to methanol is though.  It's one of the reasons I have to use GUD fuel filters - they are locally produced specifically to be compatabile with our alcohol fuels.  Its about 5 years ago that the switch was made and I distinctly remember a decrease in performance from my 280SE.  It wasn't much, say a few %, but there definately was a difference despite what the fuel companies and powers-that-be campaigned. 

So far so good with my K-jet - I just use the alcohol compatible fuel filter and fuel pump. 

Now as of this year we have no more lead either.  My poor old M110 - its diet is radically different now to what stuttgart intended...

[The Warden]

I can never understand why the US has to go a different way to the rest of the world. The whole world has been dealing with the high cost of fuel for many years and their solution is Diesel.

HEAR HEAR!!

As some of you have probably figured by now I'm an outspoken advocate for diesel (and for biodiesel; I have yet to see concrete proof to dissuade me from believing that the whole world can run on biodiesel as a renewable and cleaner-burning fuel)...and whenever I say something in a class, I immediately get attacked. Diesels are considered politically incorrect in the U.S. ...it's really sad IMHO. While I'm not anti-environment by any means, I am completely disillusioned with the American environmentalist movement.

[oscar]

I can never understand why the US has to go a different way to the rest of the world. 

Yeah, why do you guys call a liquid (petrol), gas??    It's alright, what a boring world it'd be if we were all the same.

Anyway re ethanol; I too assume its that and not methanol as meth is less energetic.  When the US/Aus free trade agreement was signed last year, the biggest losers were aparently Aussie sugar cane farmers.  It seems to me that if we all ran on pure ethanol in Aus we'd be better off.

There was a news story the other day about an English production race car racing on 100% ethanol.  I'm all for it as opposed to hybrids or electric.   Our love affair for V8's and internal combustion motors in general is too engrossed for generations to see us welcoming a vehicle with a Jetson's like futuristc "whir" when we go for a cruise.  If ethanol can reproduce the power and the sound of my car and presumably piss off the reliance on OPEC, I'll be happy.  Just need to sort out those corrosive issues of ethanol.

Diesel's more expensive in Aus than petrol.  An article I read in an offroad magazine last year had some pretty convincing data regarding Biodiesel, straight vegetable oil and another i can't remember.  I remember reading though that any performance loss is made up for by the self lubricating properties of one of these.  Smoother, quiter sounding engines, lower cost and enviromentally friendlier.

I wont comment on other countries, but for Aus the govt should move a bit quicker on these alternate fuels for economic and environmental reasons.

[Papalangi]

The US has been using MTBE -OR- ethanol for years.  MTBE is being phased out as it turns out to be almost as nasty as lead.

I'd be willing to guess that, unless you've been paying very close attention at the pump, you have had many tanks of E10 run through your car.

The National Corn Growers Association, http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/killing_myths.htm
quotes the EPA as saying that for every 100 BTUs used to produce ethanol, you get 167 BTUs.  That means it does not cost more to make than it's worth.  Granted, this from the corn growers themselves.


E10unleaded, http://www.e10unleaded.com/mythbusters.htm says just about the same thing.

A google search with keywords "ethanol fuel damage older cars" didn't get any real hits of provable damage altho it looks like there can be a difference in performance.

And then there is this,
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s943324.htm

Michael

[Denis]

Hi guys

Oh la la ! This is sure an issue with you merkuns, is it ?

OK, just a simple question. Is the "ethanol is bad for your car" issue mechanically related to its PH (acid as opposed to basic) effects ? To me, it is a viable fuel for a spark engine in France.

As for diesel, France is at the opposite end of the US (not surprisingly) - it's the gas cars that are getting the bad press    French manufacturers have made so much progress in turbodiesels that they outperform many gas cars.

The Citroen C5 is not a small car (say like a C class Mercedes) and uses an itty-bitty 1500CC turbo engine, common rail, etc, etc that manages to sip something like 6 liters per 100 km - on a trip, fully loaded with 5 passengers.

But also remember that ethanol need not compete with food crops. There is an issue of recycling the biomass here : I could go to my sunday market (a bit tradition in France) and collect all the rotten unsold stuff at the end of the day, stuff it in my "still" and make plenty of fuel.

Fuel by biomass recycling - food for thought. The people of this world need more CHOICES - believe me, as a frenchman, I know what not having many really means - let's have an election in France ASAP

My respects to you all and good evening

Denis

Paris, France

[michaeld]

Some interesting ideas here

It is interesting that Europe - which today blasts the USA for its environmental insensitivity (eg. over the Kyoto Accords) was way behind the US in the 1970s.  It was the USA that mandated smog equipment - and it was Europe that poo-pooed same.  Our w116s were caught up in that issue, and today we have US cars w/ smog eqpmt and lower performance and Euro cars with no smog eqpmt and higher performance.  I would dare say that - over the last 30 years - the USA has consistently led the way in attempting to balance environmentalism with common sense.  Interestingly, the emissions requirements forced automakers to build more efficient engines (that burned/utilized all their fuel) that set up the stage of the powerful but clean engines of today.

I agree with those of you who said that diesels were a better solution than hybrids (if for no other reason than that there will be no mountain of batteries at the end of the day).  The reason we have not used diesels in the US (for private use) is due to the much higher output of emissions contaminants.  This problem has largely been solved, and I am delighted to inform you that I read an article that Mercedes-Benz will lead the way in offering a diesel car in California late this year or early next.

Time will tell if bio diesel is a genuine solution or an interesting (and somewhat bizarre) historical footnote.  The thought of the air filled with the smell of french fries aside, it seems that there is a MUCH more finite supply of vege oil than "dino" oil.  I also wonder if running vege oil will shorten the lifespans of engines due to sludge buildup [I frankly don't know much about it; it's just my own intuition].

One other interesting thing that was brought up is the USA's tendency to do things their own way (American football rather than soccor and rugby, that sort of thing .  Keep in mind that the US is huge compared to Western Europe, and that it is isolated by two oceans.  Also remember that our system of government - balancing the issues/powers of 50 states with a federal government - guarantees that there will be more than one way of doing things: our size, our form of government, and our history of invention, demands it.

Special interests also rear their ugly head too often in America (and everywhere else!).  Iowa uses its advantage in being an early caucus state to force its corn-based ethanol on the rest of the country.  The People's Republic of California is a leading example of one state - with its frequently twisted value system - forcing high cost environmental solutions at the abandonment of all common sense.  Samual Adams said, "Our form of government was created for a moral and religious people; it will do for no other."  Sadly, we are rapidly degenerating into innumerable competing factions of special interest groups each demanding to get their precious "rights" at the expense of others and of society.

I've heard good things about the sugar cane-based ethanol in Brazil; too bad the USA doesn't have the climate to grow sugar cane! 

[The Warden]

I agree with those of you who said that diesels were a better solution than hybrids (if for no other reason than that there will be no mountain of batteries at the end of the day).  The reason we have not used diesels in the US (for private use) is due to the much higher output of emissions contaminants.  This problem has largely been solved, and I am delighted to inform you that I read an article that Mercedes-Benz will lead the way in offering a diesel car in California late this year or early next.

Do you by chance have a link to that article? I'd love to see it.

Regarding emissions contaminants, diesels weren't really as dirty to begin with as people made them out to be. Yes, there was a lot of black smoke coming out of the tailpipe...but all that is is pure carbon that goes right back into the environment. And, even that's been removed for the most part now. Modern diesels are actually considerably cleaner than modern gasoline engines...

Time will tell if bio diesel is a genuine solution or an interesting (and somewhat bizarre) historical footnote.  The thought of the air filled with the smell of french fries aside, it seems that there is a MUCH more finite supply of vege oil than "dino" oil.  I also wonder if running vege oil will shorten the lifespans of engines due to sludge buildup [I frankly don't know much about it; it's just my own intuition].

If a person runs pure vegetable oil and doesn't heat the oil before the injector pump, you can have buildup in the cylinders and coked injectors. But, biodiesel (which is vegetable oil mixed with other things) doesn't need to be heated up, and to my knowledge there have been no engine issues related to the use of Bio-D. Also, there are alternatives to vegetable oil...most notably algae. Take a look here for some more information on Bio-D and algae...it also talks some about some of the problems with hydrogen.

Just some random thoughts

[michaeld]

Warden,
I'm afraid I don't have a link; I read it in my newspaper (Car section in a Saturday Press Enterprise) with great interest a couple of months ago, but didn't save the paper.  I'll see if I can find some kind of link to the article somewhere, but please don't hold your breath hoping that I'll be able to find it.

The gist of the story was that passenger diesels had not been allowed in California because of their contaminant output, but that they were now clean enough to satisfy California regs.  I also recall it saying that one of the barriers to passenger diesels was their historic unatractiveness to women (who didn't like the smell and the noise).  The new Mercedes diesels won't have these "drawbacks." 

As for my statement, "Time will tell," I mean in the looooong run.  When I see diesels running vege oil for 200,000 miles, I will fully accept that bio diesel is great.  Until then, count me among the skeptics.  Another shortfall I see in vege oil is the fact that it has to be painstakingly collected by going hat-in-hand to restaurant after restaurant, and one has to keep vats of the stuff in their garage.  It wouldn't be for me.  I also think that if bio diesels ever truly proved that they were a GREAT idea, the vege oil would suddenly be a hot commodity (in other words, yes, restaurants are giving it away now, but...).  And don't forget the $2 grand for the conversion.

You will never hear me say an unkind word about diesels.  I think the things are wonderful, noise, stink, glowplugs and all.  I like great fuel economy, and I love reliability and longevity.

On this note, however, I read an interesting article that said that the longevity/durability advantages of diesels were largely a result of the fact that gas (a solvent) was being splashed all over the cylinders by carburetors, and that gasoline fuel injection systems have largely overcome that liability.  Some say that diesel engines are overbuilt due to the high compression - giving them another advantage over gas engines - but I simply cannot believe that my M117 was underbuilt!  I don't know if gas engines are truly as durable as diesels in the era of fuel injection or not, but it certainly made for interesting reading.

As the Germans say, "Sieg deiselmotor!"
Mike

[116.025]

When I see diesels running vege oil for 200,000 miles, I will fully accept that bio diesel is great.  Until then, count me among the skeptics. 

Michaeld, you're semantically killing me here...Bio-Diesel is NOT vege oil.  Bio-Diesel made from vege oil is the oil processed with a catalyst and an alcohol like ethanol/methanol where the react swaps glycerin for alcohol.  Glycerin doesn't burn, and does wear an engine significantly faster than once the oil is refined into Bio-Diesel.  I've heard it said that 100,000 miles on untouched oil (in many cases even heated) is equivalent to 300,000 miles on petrodiesel or biodiesel.  I hope that didn't sound like an attack, it just drives me batty when it looks like someone is calling WVO biodiesel, since it most definitely is not.

Another shortfall I see in vege oil is the fact that it has to be painstakingly collected by going hat-in-hand to restaurant after restaurant, and one has to keep vats of the stuff in their garage.  It wouldn't be for me.  I also think that if bio diesels ever truly proved that they were a GREAT idea, the vege oil would suddenly be a hot commodity (in other words, yes, restaurants are giving it away now, but...).  And don't forget the $2 grand for the conversion.

As the Germans say, "Sieg deiselmotor!"
Mike

Harvesting the oil is the hard part, to be sure, but once the oil is refined into biodiesel, there is no conversion except a few fuel hoses, which are much less than one of those home-brewed, half-functional $2k "Veggy oil conversion" kits.

I say, for those who have no true appreciation for an MB diesel, and just want one to be cool and run it on WVO, drive your crappy ricers into the ground rather than buy a nice MB diesel and destroy it on WVO, and leave the MB diesels to those who appreciate them and will run them on Biodiesel or petro diesel.  Destroy something worthy of being driven into the ground, like a Mistubishi or a Honda.  (Hopefully I haven't offended any of the audience  )  But that's just my 2 cents.  (ok, maybe a nickel... )

[The Warden]

116.025 beat me to the punch regarding biodiesel versus pure (straight or waste) vegetable oil. Actual biodiesel doesn't require any engine modifications, and while it can be home-brewed from waste vegetable oil and other components, it is also available from some retail stations (and, at the price of "dino-diesel" these days, biodiesel is actually competitive from a price standpoint). The retailers use virgin oil instead of getting it from restaurants...actually, alluding back to the article I posted in my earlier post about algae being a potential source for said virgin oil. And, of course, this way, you don't have to deal with brewing it yourself...don't need the equipment and whatnot. However, it's more expensive ($3.25/gallon at the moment {as biodiesel refining gets more extensive, I imagine the price will go down}, whereas if you brew it yourself, the price comes out to be about $1.00/gallon). As to being time-proven...you make a good point, but there are a few vehicles running around that have run biodiesel for quite a while. There are at least a few semi trucks that run exclusively on the stuff, with no complaints. However, it would be better to get a stronger track record.

On this note, however, I read an interesting article that said that the longevity/durability advantages of diesels were largely a result of the fact that gas (a solvent) was being splashed all over the cylinders by carburetors, and that gasoline fuel injection systems have largely overcome that liability.  Some say that diesel engines are overbuilt due to the high compression - giving them another advantage over gas engines - but I simply cannot believe that my M117 was underbuilt!

I've heard the same thing about gasoline fuel injection systems...can't really comment one way or another, though. Regarding diesels being overbuilt...as a general rule, that's absolutely true. A notable exception was the GM 350 diesel of the late 1970's...and it had a much shorter lifespan than most diesels, as a direct result. Most diesels are built far stronger than most gasoline engines. Your M117 is probably an exception to that (never dealt with an M-B gas engine, so I can't comment from personal experience; maybe they all are?), and gasoline engines built by International Harvester are overbuilt to the point where they're as strong as diesels are. The Ford FE block of the 1970's (352, 360, 390) was almost as strong as a diesel as well. But, those are exceptions to the rule, not the rule itself. MOST gasoline engines are getting pretty well worn out by 150K to 200K miles, whereas a properly maintained diesel should be able to get to 500K miles without too much difficulty. It's also worth pointing out that "overbuilt" gas engines are generally horrible on fuel economy. I don't know how M-B gas engines are, but I know that IH gas engines are bad enough that you can almost watch the fuel gauge moving...when an IH gets 8 mpg, the owner starts jumping for joy.

You will never hear me say an unkind word about diesels.  I think the things are wonderful, noise, stink, glowplugs and all.  I like great fuel economy, and I love reliability and longevity.

As the Germans say, "Sieg deiselmotor!"

Good man!!  Now we just need to get the rest of America on the bandwagon...