Mandated Methanol in the U.S.

[davestlouis]

I have had the dubious pleasure of owning one diesel powered car, a 1983 240D, for about 30 days...blew the motor, literally blew a connecting rod cap through the bottom of the pan and made one hell of a mess on the parking lot at work.  I did drive a 97? E300 diesel the other day and was amazed at the way it drove, almost normal, except for a little "sizzle" from under the hood, but no audible clatter.  I was always told as a kid that diesels have to be plugged in at night in cold climates...that alone would turn me off, and I can't imagine my wife or mother plugging in a car  every night.  Until diesels are as user-friendly as gas cars, I really doubt that the average North American motorist will bother.  Even with $3/gallon gas, the dealership where I work is selling every '07 Escalade they can get their mitts on. 

[michaeld]

Allow me to first apologize for any and all semantic crimes that I have committed.

I confess to being somewhat ignorant about the subject; I have heard the term "bio diesel" devoid of surrounding context, and as I am somewhat familiar with "vege oil conversions" I thought they were synonymous.  I now understand that "bio diesel" refers to some kind of vegetable-based oil that has undergone some form of additional refinement process.  Like most people, I form beliefs and opinions based on the information I have, and then (hopefully, at least) re-visit those beliefs as new relevant information becomes available.  Since I've never owned a diesel, I hope you will forgive my somewhat incomplete understanding of all the linguistic jargon involved re: diesels.

Let me also say, my skepticism is primarily directed at the $2k ($1,000 just for the parts) conversion process that is billed as allowing diesel cars to run on restaurant grade vege oil.  This simply strikes me as an attempt to run one's car on ... filth.  I would never knowingly pour something like that in ANY car I own.  Oil that has been sufficiently processed and refined strikes me as an acceptable solution.  That said, I simply can't imagine very many folk who would be willing to homebrew hundreds of gallons of some oil concoction.  Having to cook up a batch of vege oil to convert it into bio diesel is even WORSE than I originally thought!!!  If you want to go through all that, then God bless ya!

As to the commercially available bio diesel fuel, I can't say that I've ever come across "bio diesel" being advertised at any fuel station that I have frequented in my region of California.  This strikes me as being a similar problem to the "fusion" technology: availability of fuel.  The Catch 22 is - of course - that stations won't sell the fuel until enough consumers buy the cars, and consumers won't buy the cars until they have convenient access to the fuel.  Somehow this logjam must be broken.  Bio diesel actually sounds promising to me: OPEC is tantamount to profanity to me, and I would dearly love to see the Middle Eastern stranglehold on the West (and particularly America) broken forever [Don't get me started railing against Arab states that became wealthy by directly profiting from the Western way of life, only to rail against the very way of life that made them rich!].

Another interesting note - to complete my abandonment of the original thread topic (sorry!) - is the fact that the ONLY hybrid that is selling well is the Toyota Prius.  The Prius is doing great.  But ALL the other hybrids are languishing, and the other big sellers of hybrids (Ford and Honda included) are seriously considering getting out of the hybrid market.  I dare say that the current market conditions are ripe for a serious entry into the diesel market by a carmaker who wants to raise their average fleet fuel economy AND actually sell their cars!
Mike

[The Warden]

I have had the dubious pleasure of owning one diesel powered car, a 1983 240D, for about 30 days...blew the motor, literally blew a connecting rod cap through the bottom of the pan and made one hell of a mess on the parking lot at work.

That's a new one. Did you ever figure out why that happened? The OM616 (the 2.4l 4 cylinder in the 240D) has a reputation as a "million-mile" engine; about the only way to kill one is to continue driving after an oil cooler hose blows or never changing the oil (which makes the timing chain stretch, eventually to the point where valves touch piston tops).

I was always told as a kid that diesels have to be plugged in at night in cold climates...

Unless you live in a climate that regularly gets to sub-zero temperatures AND you have a malfunctioning glow plug system (or you have a 1960's vintage diesel), that's an urban myth. The "plugging in" is a block heater that heats up the coolant...and, yes, it makes cold-starting easier. But, it's not impossible to start a diesel without a block heater by any means. I've never used a block heater on any of the five diesels I've owned (in fact, only one of those diesels was even equipped with a block heater). I'm referring to relatively old (1980's) diesels; many of the newer ones almost don't even need the glow plugs. If I lived in Canada or Alaska, I might "plug in" my diesel if I had a block heater...OTOH, I would also plug in a gas engine if I owned one, and for the same reason. Any engine gets less wear and tear on a warm start-up than on a cold start-up, because the oil flows easier. Also, it makes the cab heater effective that much faster.

Allow me to first apologize for any and all semantic crimes that I have committed.

No need to apologize as far as I'm concerned There are a lot of people who don't know what biodiesel is, and IMHO the more people who learn, the better. So, you taking the time to learn and understand it (instead of simply writing it off like so many people seem to do) is more than enough for me. 

Let me also say, my skepticism is primarily directed at the $2k ($1,000 just for the parts) conversion process that is billed as allowing diesel cars to run on restaurant grade vege oil.  This simply strikes me as an attempt to run one's car on ... filth.  I would never knowingly pour something like that in ANY car I own.

FYI, while you can buy the entire kit for about $1K, it is possible to do the conversion for less. There are alternate ways to heat up the vegetable oil that don't require the kit, and with some ingenuity, you can do it for only a few hundred. Also, anyone who pours the straight vegetable oil directly from the restaurant vat into their fuel tank is nuts!! Even if you're running straight WVO (and not biodiesel), you NEED to run it through a series of fine filters and separate the water out of the oil before putting it in the tank. Otherwise, you end up with the "filth" that you describe. Lastly, while I know that biodiesel can replace dino-diesel (and while I still strongly believe that diesel is a viable alternative to gasoline that should be considered by America in a much stronger way than it currently is), I agree that running straight waste vegetable oil is not for everyone.

As to the commercially available bio diesel fuel, I can't say that I've ever come across "bio diesel" being advertised at any fuel station that I have frequented in my region of California.  This strikes me as being a similar problem to the "fusion" technology: availability of fuel.  The Catch 22 is - of course - that stations won't sell the fuel until enough consumers buy the cars, and consumers won't buy the cars until they have convenient access to the fuel.  Somehow this logjam must be broken.

You are absolutely right...that said, biodiesel pumps are spreading around more and more, as is refining capacity. Demand's high enough in relation to supply that the price is just starting to be competitive with dino-diesel (both are at about $3.30/gallon here now; dino-diesel rose to this level while biodiesel came DOWN to this price from $3.50/gallon). That, plus the fact that the basic infrastructure's already there, gives me at least some hope. Take a look here on some more info, along with a list of some biodiesel stations around the country.

Another interesting note - to complete my abandonment of the original thread topic (sorry!) - is the fact that the ONLY hybrid that is selling well is the Toyota Prius.  The Prius is doing great.  But ALL the other hybrids are languishing, and the other big sellers of hybrids (Ford and Honda included) are seriously considering getting out of the hybrid market.

HAH HAH!! I didn't know that...I'm not surprised, though. When Prius battery packs start wearing out and people get hit with the replacement cost, and when people realize how much on an environmental impact getting rid of those batteries will have, the hybrid fad will end. IMHO it's a ridiculous waste of resources and a PC feel-good measure that's doing more environmental harm than good (between the battery disposal factor, the fact that a hybrid's engine is running constantly on a long freeway run netting fuel economy in the low 40's instead of the 50+ that the're touting, and the fact that a clean diesel burns cleaner than a clean gas engine).

Okay, off my soapbox now...sorry for the rant...

[116.025]

Allow me to first apologize for any and all semantic crimes that I have committed.

Like the Warden said, no need to apologize.  Just glad someone's willing to learn rather than asking if they can trade their Ford Escort wagon for my 123 wagon , and after I refuse, asking if they can run their Escort on WVO...  And, again, I hope I didn't sound like I was attacking you, and I apologize if I did.  I was running on 4 hours of sleep when I posted that...  

[OzBenzHead]

116.025/Chad and Warden:

Being mostly a petrol-engine driver, I'm confused by all the alternative ("alternate" in US English!) diesel terms: WVO, SVO, biodiesel ...

A simple, clear explanation of each would go down well, if you would oblige.

Thanks.   

[oscar]

Hi OBH

From that offroad mag I talked about earlier here's some basic definitions

Biodiesel- made from animal fats or vegetable oils and usually blended with petroleum based diesel
WVO- (Waste Vegetable Oil), with the use of a still, turning the crap out of grease traps behind restraunts into fuel for diesels.
SVO- (Straight Vegetable Oil),  umm straight vegetable oil.  ie no diesel or blend just 100%,,,,,pure,,,straight vegetable oil. 

[michaeld]

116.025,

Well, you know what they say: just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me; and by extension just because I have a persecution complex doesn't mean they're not attacking me!  To be frank, I was a bit taken aback by your post, but it wasn't so much because I felt you were attacking me as it was that I was a bit surprised at how strongly you seemed to feel about proper diesel lingo!

"Realizing that he had enraged the diesel brigade to the point of violence, he found a hill and began to drive up it, secure in the knowledge that they'd never catch him now."

I suppose I can understand how you dieselmotor fellows might get frustrated at the continuous ignorance on the part of us benzin folk.  Most of us simply don't have a clue; we count five cylinders and start freaking out (did they put an extra one in or leave one out?).  Frankly, diesels were strange enough BEFORE all this alternative fuel stuff came along!

Oscar,
together with Ozbenzhead, I appreciate the updated diesel fuel vocabulary lesson.  I shall surely add WVO and SVO to my diesel-to-gas lexicon.

[OzBenzHead]

Oscar: Thanks for the definitions!   

[davestlouis]

Let me give everyone a recipe for quick and easy destruction of the garden-variety OM616 engine...buy a 250K mile 240D for cheap that had been run low on oil and had a noisy bearing in the bottom end.  Run it at high(relatively) RPM's across the parking lot at work and KABOOM.  It was cold weather and I was running back and forth across the lot, trying to get the car up to operating temp, to see if it quieted down at all...instead it spit its guts out and left an oil slick.  I had to go back and pick up chunks of the oil pan and the con rod cap and twisted con rod bolts. 

[The Warden]

Ouch.

I have to point out, however, that that sort of scenario would kill any engine on the road...from a VW to a "bulletproof" Honda to an 855 Cummins (N14; common semi-tractor engine). In fact, my girlfriend's parents had two gasoline cars that suffered the exact same fate.

Can't say that it's the engine's fault...more like horrible maintenance on the part of the p/o. Unless he drove it with a blown oil cooler hose (in which case he should have noticed the gauge fall and immediately shut the engine down) or just never checked the oil, it should never have run with low oil pressure, and certainly the rod knock wouldn't have come to be if the bearings hadn't been worn by low oil pressure. That isn't a problem that's limited to diesels by any means...low oil pressure/oil starvation can kill any engine. And, unless the oil pump driveshaft sheared or the oil filter collapsed and the bypass valve died (and I don't think either of these problems happen very often on ANY M-B), oil issues are usually a result of poor maintenance.

Sorry if I'm coming on too strongly...just, I get the impression that you're blaming the engine for this, and are using this to imply that all OM61x engines are junk (and maybe all other diesels as well? I get the impression that you're rather hostile to the concept, but hopefully I'm misreading you)...and, as you can probably tell, I'm pretty passionate about my oilburners.

[davestlouis]

Good grief, I'm not blaming the engine, I'm well aware that they are tough little buggers.  I bought the car with my eyes open, knew it had issues and was trying to figure out the extent of the problems...the initial problem is clearly the PO's fault, and the actual blow-up lands squarely in my lap.  I must confess it makes me grin now, thinking about the loud noise it made.  Better to blow up a $500 car than something that I had a lot of money tied up in. 

[davestlouis]

I don't necessarily have an issue with diesels, my point is that the average American motorist doesn't know how to check their own oil, much less get involved with fuel additives, anti-fungal tank treatments, changing fuel filters and all the other fun that seems to go along with diesel operation.  OTR truckers know how to maintain equipment, many car drivers just know they buy the cheapest gas that the car will run on without pinging and change the oil at whatever quick lube place has a coupon that week.  I just wonder how involved the average driver wants to be?  I truly think their car is an appliance and gets ignored until something breaks.  Perhaps I'm being pessimistic but car operation has to be idiot-proof to work in this market. 

[Denis]

Hi fellows

Got to chime in fiends, mister davestlouis ?

I dont get the point. A properly maintained OM616 is much LESS work than any gasser...and in fact any work on one of these is absolute child's play but you must have owned one to know this 
I repeat, diesel cars are LESS maintenance than gassers - and properly adjusted even OM616s dont smell much.  As for MODERN diesels, they have no smell at all. Really.

Gasser superiority is just a texas myth  because the business margins of W and his friends.

Denis

Paris, France

[davestlouis]

I beg to differ...I have driven and abused several Asian imports, Honda, Toyota and Kia, and have done oil changes at 7-10K intervals, front brakes and tires, and that was IT in the first 100k miles.  I treat them as disposable and they run well over 100k with no issues.  On the other hand, I have never kept one much beyond 150K.  During that time, and with all of these cars, I have never done a valve adjustment, never changed a fuel filter, never washed them for the most part either.  While I agree that is not a nice way to treat a car, could I buy any modern diesel car, VW or MB and have the same experience?  I have to imagine that one would want to do more maintenance than I have, if they were planning on running the car for lots of miles, gas or diesel, but again, I believe the American mindset is finance the thing for 60 or even 72 months, don't do much maintenance because you can barely keep the repo man away as you scramble to make the huge payment, then trade it in when it starts becoming a problem.  We are a consumerist society, and tend to just throw things away.  I want to emhpasize, I'm not knocking diesel cars, but I am knocking the average American motorist. 

[davestlouis]

I want to clarify, too that I'm not trying to be belligerent, and if it comes across that way in print, I apologize.  I'd love to get a diesel MB, just haven't found one that I liked and could afford, aside from the 240D.  I really bought that one because I saw it on the side of the highway and felt sorry for it, left a note under the wiper and the PO called back, said he would sell.  It was one of those spur-of-the-moment things that leaves you scratching your head later.