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M116 V8 vs. M117 V8

Started by 200 hp, 11 June 2010, 01:56 PM

200 hp

Hi I'm going to purchase a euro 350se and I'm not sure if parts will be as easy to get as say a 450se. I live in North America. What I want to know is does the 350 have the same oil filter, fan belts, timing chain, fuel filters, battery, oil requirements as a 450?? Also I know that euro models have a higher compression ratio so that means they need a much higher fuel octane? The highest over here is 94. I want to know if it is ok to run the fuel over here in a euro model.

Plus the trunk leaks alot of water in. I want to know if this is the trunk seal or something harder to fix. The front seatbelts are broken too because they wont engage in the slot.

WGB

Where is over here?

Bill

TJ 450

It will have/need the same oil filter and quantity of oil as an M117. Timing chain is a different length. Everything else is superficially the same as the M117 except perhaps the exhaust and intake manifolds. Some belts may be a different length, but I cannot confirm that.

A leak in the trunk could be a number of things, and not necessarily the main seal itself. It requires thorough investigation. I would suggest a bit of a search on this forum, as it is a well-covered topic.

I'm not sure of the North American fuel octane ratings, but you will preferably need the highest rating available for the Euro model. Otherwise, there should be no problems.

Tim
1976 450SEL 6.9 1432
1969 300SEL 6.3 1394
2003 ML500

oscar

Hi 200, I have had the same dilemma all along.  My 350's my daily driver and although I haven't pulled the heads off, most things m117=m116.  What year is your 350?  Mine being a 73 has d-jet FI and I simply look up the NA official manual on the 350/450 and for parts I've gone through 450 databases to buy stuff.  There are some m116 specifics to do with the FI and heads but just about everything valve train is pretty much the same like chain guides/slides, valves, rocker arms, all sprockets and even the head gasket kit.  Like TJ said though, the m117 chain is longer and the tensioner may be different but the two types are available.

Need to look for a manual like this on ebay atm Link

As you'll see in that listing, whilst the m116 3.5L was never officially sold in a W116 in NA, it was put into and sold in some w111s and the w109 300sel.  You should find one that covers your engine number specifically.  The thing is, all the manuals in English appear to be printed in NA and therefore doesn't specifically cover the 3.5L W116, but you can use those manuals to work on your car when you combine the M116 and 450/w116 info.

As for parts, some US sites have pretty good online catalogues and once again, catering for the NA market specifically there's no 'w116/3.5L' covered.  You'll have to use a combo of the W116/4.5L/m117 catalogue and W109/3.5/m116 for example.  Keep in mind this is mainly for pre 76 d-jet engines.  For 76 onwards, k-jet FI came in and I'm not sure of any k-jet 3.5L engines sold or covered by the NA manuals and catalogues after that time.  But once again the post 76 3.5 and 4.5 engines are basically the same so if your 350 is a post 76 car, scrolling through an m117 catalogue will give you just about everything you'll need. 

One more tip, regardless of what year, if you're searching through an m117 catalogue you might find parts with an '116' prefix rather than '117'.  That part will be a carry over from the m116 engine and will fit both.  If a part from a previous engine is reused in a later design they seem to keep the first prefix.  Example the '110' prefix exists for the exhaust valve.  The 2.8L m110, 3.5L m116 and 4.5L m117 use the same exhaust valve.  Oil filters for those three are also the same.

I bet that's clear as mud so far :D  Basically you should have no problems getting parts.  There's a bunch of US sites you'll be able to buy from or window shop at.  I post up 'autohaus arizona' a lot because they're one of a few that'll ship to Aus but there's a load more catering for the domestic US market.  Just google 'mercedes parts' or similar and there'll be quite a few.

I read again the other day about octane ratings in the US and elsewhere and I don't get the specifics but you should aim for the highest rating.  Regardless, I've got a tank of 91 ron in my car atm.  Not being cheap, there was no 98 at the time and I've had to dial the ignition back a bit.  No dramas though.  It's done 10s of thousands of km on 91ron before I got the car.
1973 350SE, my first & fave

200 hp

Bill: "over here" is north america as I already typed.

Tim & oscar: Thanks very much for the answers. From what you said Oscar, if I got hold of say a Haynes manual on the 450 series and on the 350 series of the older mercedes models, that should do the trick?

And are the spark plugs and distributor definitely the same as in the 450se? Those I'd like to change right away when purchasing the 350se. Also it's a 1974 model with no sunroof, real leather and a strange column shift option for the transmission.

s class

Column  shift is indeed a rare option on the W116's.  Nice.

For the 450 engine and chassis you can go here :

http://handbook.w116.org/matrix6.htm

right on this site...


[color=blue]'76 6.9 Euro[/color], [color=red]'78 6.9 AMG[/color], '80 280SE, [color=brown]'74 350SE[/color], [color=black]'82 500SEL euro full hydro, '83 500SEL euro full hydro [/color], '81 500SL

WGB

Quote from: 200 hp on 12 June 2010, 03:00 AM
Bill: "over here" is north america as I already typed.


Sorry missed that.

I thought your fuel ratings were given in a different system. Is it possible that you have similar fuel to us.

I have two Euro High compression motors - a 450 and a 6.9 and both prefer 98 octane but they will run with little problem on 95.

If you have problems the ignition can be retarded by a few degrees as these motors will run hot if they are near detonation.

Another significant difference from a 450  is the diff ratio and the speedo is specific for each diff ratio so if you have problems you will either need another 350 speedo or fix the one you have.

I would imagine a Euro 350 would be quicker than a Federal 450.

Bill

oscar

Quote from: 200 hp on 12 June 2010, 03:00 AM
From what you said Oscar, if I got hold of say a Haynes manual on the 450 series and on the 350 series of the older mercedes models, that should do the trick?

And are the spark plugs and distributor definitely the same as in the 450se? Those I'd like to change right away when purchasing the 350se. Also it's a 1974 model with no sunroof, real leather and a strange column shift option for the transmission.

Yeah the Haynes manual is similar, so far as it covers 3.5L engines in 107s and 4.5L engines in 107s and 116s.  I used to use that all the time because the english was easy to understand and explanations were lengthier than the concise language in the workshop manual meant for pros.   But after a couple of years I got the official workshop manual which I find more technical in regards to data and tend to refer to that much more than Haynes now which can be lacking specifics.  Sclass' link will take you to the online manual which is in effect what I have in print, ie selecting "74 450SE", will give you pretty much all you need to know .  BTW somewhere in there there's fan belt layouts.  I remember seeing layout diagrams for different engines but not sure what section.

Ditto on the column shift! Very rare. 
Spark plugs -  I think all have the same recommended spark plugs - ratings and choice of brand is another thing though and original plug recommendations like the Champion N9Y are long gone.  I'd search "spark plugs" on the forum because there's many threads on it with mentions of NGK BP5ES or BP6ES, or Bosch W7DC or W8DC.  NGK's been my fave but if you're keen on another brand just look up their respective application guides and try them out.

The distributor - I think they're the same.  Only because I can't think why they'd be any different.  The cog that drives the dizzies are the same.  The only real difference is the pre and post 76 thing.  Unlike K-jet distributors, D-jet distributors like yours have 4 sets of points below the baseplate that send signals to the ecu for injection timing, so make sure you get a d-jet dizzy.
1973 350SE, my first & fave

116.025

Sorry if I'm dragging up an aging thread here, but I didn't see anyone from NA chiming in, so I thought I'd share my experience.  Every W116 I've owned or has been in the family has been Euro spec.  I've always run them on premium (usually 92 or 93, occasionally 94 in my part of the US) with no trouble.  The thing you have to check is your timing.  Often in the US, you'll get some Ford or Chevy guy that mumbles something about "dern foreign cars" that adjusts the timing and runs it on regular, which really does not save much money in the long run, and robs a bit of power.

I have acquired a full set of Microfiche (including Euro spec) from the 50s to the mid 90s, so please feel free to PM me if you need help looking up a part or what might interchange.  Some stuff interchanges well from the M117, some doesn't, and in some cases it depends on which M116 you've got whether it will be interchangeable with an M117 part.

200 hp

Again, thanks for all the useful information. Good to know the differences are not too major between the engines.

Unfortunately I'm buying a car with no service history at all. My biggest worry is the timing chain. It has 151,000 kms which is suspiciously low, but I understand this is around the point it needs to be changed? It'll be a few more months before I can afford maintenance work like that.  The broken front seat belts are very annoying too. I hope they were unchanged from D-jet times to K-jet times and not too difficult to find. Are they same as in W123 and R107?

TJ 450

Yes, the timing chain will need to be changed for cheap insurance against serious engine damage. Once that, along with the tensioner and plastic rails are changed, it should be very reliable.

Tim
1976 450SEL 6.9 1432
1969 300SEL 6.3 1394
2003 ML500

200 hp

Sounds like an $1000 and over job. But will be priority when I got the cash.

Here's a sneak peak of the car before I start a new topic about it:

TJ 450

That appears to be a very nice car... well done with the purchase. :)

Tim
1976 450SEL 6.9 1432
1969 300SEL 6.3 1394
2003 ML500