Knocking then stall - now won't start at all

[mbrassart]

I have a 1980 300SD that won't start.  Here is the basic sequence of events.

Filled up my gas tank yesterday and this morning my engine started knocking a little, especially at low speeds and idle.  Got to work okay though.  On my way home the engine was still knocking around a lot more than normal.  Then it stalled at a red light and wouldn't start at all.  I also noticed that it had spit oil up throught he dipstick.

The glow plugs are new.
The starter is new.
The fuel filters are only 2 months old.
If I loosen the nut to the fuel injector, I do see some fuel making it to the injector.
I bought gas from a place I have never been to before.
I wanted to do a diesel purge, but now can't get the engine to turn over at all.

I think all I need is glow plugs, pressure, and fuel to get it started.  I have glow plugs, and I'm pretty sure I have fuel to the injector.  I don't have any way to test the pressure right now.

Any ideas?  I wanted to try to replace the fuel injectors, but that's a $300 gamble if I'm wrong and it still won't start.

If it was pressure, would it have happened so suddenly?  Prior to this morning, it was running just fine.

Any help is appreciated.

Matt

[Ilike300sd]

I'm far from an expert on these engines yet, but I see only 2 things in your sequence of events that are out of the ordinary.

1) Fuel from new place.  Quality/water in fuel may be a possible cause.  Could it be addressed via an additive?

2) Oil thorugh dipstick.  Indicates overpressure in crankcase.  Perhaps oil is pushing past the rings also and getting into the cumbustion chamber?  Perhaps someone can chime in as to a possible cause of the overpressure. Blowby gasses?, blocked line? Other?  Has the car ever pushed oil through the dipstick tube before now?

Also it might be worth bleeding the fuel system (if you haven't yet) as it costs nothing to do.  Don't know how air could get in there but takes 2 minutes and would eliminate a possible cause.

Just some WAGs I'm throwing out there.

[Gerard]

I have a 1980 300SD that won't start.  Here is the basic sequence of events.

Filled up my gas tank yesterday and this morning my engine started knocking a little, especially at low speeds and idle.  Got to work okay though.  On my way home the engine was still knocking around a lot more than normal.  Then it stalled at a red light and wouldn't start at all.  I also noticed that it had spit oil up throught he dipstick.

The glow plugs are new.
The starter is new.
The fuel filters are only 2 months old.
If I loosen the nut to the fuel injector, I do see some fuel making it to the injector.
I bought gas from a place I have never been to before.
I wanted to do a diesel purge, but now can't get the engine to turn over at all.

I think all I need is glow plugs, pressure, and fuel to get it started.  I have glow plugs, and I'm pretty sure I have fuel to the injector.  I don't have any way to test the pressure right now.

Any ideas?  I wanted to try to replace the fuel injectors, but that's a $300 gamble if I'm wrong and it still won't start.

If it was pressure, would it have happened so suddenly?  Prior to this morning, it was running just fine.

Any help is appreciated.

Matt

Hi Matt,

You have mentioned GAS twice in the above post.  Have you done...the...one...thing .....you shouldn't do...................with a diesel car................??
Gerard

[mbrassart]

No, that's just an old habit dying hard.  Unless the station put it in the wrong tank...

Could that be remedied with a drain and fill?

Is it possible to start the car with diesel purge even if it's not running?

I was planning to pull the fuel injectors and hit them with some carb cleaner.  Not a $100 solution, but it might tell me if I'm on the right track.

[mbrassart]

Had to have a mechanic take a look.  Easter egging to try to find the problem was going to get expensive.

It looks like it's the fuel injector pump.  They want $2700 parts and labor.  The labor was around $600 for a $600 job, so presumably they want $2100 for the part.  I found one at Oregon Fuel Injection for less than $1000.

http://www.o-f-i.com/index.php?pid=53

Has anyone done this job?  How hard would this be to do myself for essentially 1/2 price?

Matt

[jbrasile]

Matt,

Very interesting that this problem started after your last fill-up.

Before you go out and spend $$$ on a rebuilt  pump which I think you don't need,  drain all of the fuel from the tank, get about 10 gallons from a well known station and give the car a try. You may have contaminated diesel in the tank right now, water or other chemicals may have seeped into the gas station tanks and fouled the fuel.

Tks,

Joe

[Gerard]

Matt,

Very interesting that this problem started after your last fill-up.

Before you go out and spend $$$ on a rebuilt  pump which I think you don't need,  drain all of the fuel from the tank, get about 10 gallons from a well known station and give the car a try. You may have contaminated diesel in the tank right now, water or other chemicals may have seeped into the gas station tanks and fouled the fuel.

Tks,

Joe

Good advice.

Perhaps get several clean jam jars aswell, and compare good fresh diesel, with a sample from your tank, and a sample from your fuel filter.  Is the filter under the bonnet in your car?

[mbrassart]

Joe,

I forgot to post that update.  I also thought it was bad diesel because of the way it happened.  Prior to taking it to the mechanic, I drained the fuel, changed the filters, put a can of seafoam in the tank along with 5 fresh gallons of diesel.

Didn't help my problem.

Matt

[curbill]

That is way to much or replacing an injector pump. There really is not that much that goes wrong with the 300 IP's. I have replaced these pumps and had them checked at our local injector ump place and they pretty much have said that the Bosch pump is indestructable. The stanadyne pump off of 7.3 diesels will snap just like you described but you will not be able to run your engine if the pump is broken. Sound more like a valve problem. My IP on my pickup went out wednesday of last week and with a broken IP I could not get the engine to run at all. Those pumps have sold on EBAY  less than 300.00. Even if you get a worn one you can bring them or a Bosch facility and have them change the seals recalibrate it.

[Janse]

Have you checked the vacuum pump? Makes a knocking sound just before it brakes down.

[ponton]

Assuming the engine was running well prior to this problem, it seems to me that it is water/badfuel/air in line.  You drained the tank and put in fresh with seafoam, but did you purge the line?  If you pump the primer pump it will recirculate any craposis left up at the injectors back to the tank.  I would also suggest a product like "Heet," which is specifically designed for water in fuel.  Basically it is a lot of methanol, which is hygroscopic unlike diesel oil so it carries the water through the engine.  I am no expert, but the people I have spoken to about the injector pump failure have said that the slowly degenerate, which would be indicated by poor running for quite some time before it wouldn't start at all.  Don't know about the oil blowing out though? Red herring?  I also just remembered you changed the filters when this happened.  Did you purge the lines after that?  Could have been water in the line and now air in the line?  When I run my car very low on fuel and take fast corners it sucks air and runs like crap for a long time unless I purge the line.  But then again, I could be completely wrong and it wouldn't be the first time.  Good luck!

Ian

[mbrassart]

Last night I got a few cans of diesel purge and attempted to run it through.  Even though the engine won't start, it is running through (at least a little).  The hard lines from the fuel injection pump to the fuel injectors have been purged and bled, and both filters are new.

I got a compression test kit from mercedessource.com this week, and tomorrow I'm going to do the valve alignment and compression test.  If the engine tests okay, then I'll be pretty certain that my problem is fuel related (which I've thought all along).

Maybe there is a problem with the injection pump after all, but I still think that it's fuel related.  I'd love to just get the darn thing to fire up once so I could run the diesel purge through proper.

Is there a way to test the pressure coming out of the injector pump without a pretty expensive gauge?  The cheap ones say "not for Bosch" and the other ones are a few hundred bucks.  When I bleed the fuel lines, I see that fuel is making it to the injector, but I don't know how to read it.  On Kent's videos, his show a bit of a squirt, mine doesn't gush out like that.

I'm still not against getting new injectors, but I wanted to be sure before I spent $300.  Even though it will be going to a pretty good dude (Raptelan).

Matt

[mbrassart]

Update:

I don't think any amount of diesel purge is going to help.

Took the compression readings today after a valve adjustment and it's a little disheartening.

Cylinder 1 - 290 psi
Cylinder 2 - 310 psi
Cylinder 3 - 75 psi
Cylinder 4 - 75 psi
Cylinder 5 - 250 psi

Is the engine a goner?  Could the collar nuts under the fuel injector be leaking by?

What's the prognosis doctors?

Matt

[mbrassart]

I thought about this all night and had the hypothesis that if the head gasket was gone between #3 and #4, then all my compression might leak to the other.  I plugged #4 with a fuel injector and ran the compression test on #3 - no change in symptoms.

#3 and #4 hold no pressure during a compression test.

I want to do a leak down test next to try to see where it is going.

How can I tell when a cylinder is at Top Dead Center on the 617 engine?

[ponton]

I found this post on peachparts

11-07-2006, 01:58 AM 
sixto 
smoke gets in your eyes   Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 14,620 

You can put marks 72-, 144-, 216- and 288-degrees on the crank pulley. Starting at #1 TDC, you'll hit some TDC every 144-degrees.

Sixto
93 300SD

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/169741-om617-finding-tdc-cylinders-2-5-a.html

I think you are right to do a leakdown as your next step.  It seems you have found your no start cause.  Depending on what you find you may want to buy a used engine to use while you rebuild your current one but I can't remember if this is your daily driver or not.  The good news is this a really easy engine to pull!