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Garage => Mechanicals => Topic started by: andrewk on 18 October 2022, 07:38 AM

Title: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 18 October 2022, 07:38 AM
Hello all,

Andrew here- i'm based in Sydney, Australia, and have just secured my first Mercedes - a green (unsure of the colour name - perhaps you can help me?), Australian delivered 1979 450 SEL 6.9.

I first saw this car in my friend's apartment building garage a few years ago and instantly felt like I had to own it. Every time I came back to the garage it was still there, unmoved, but with slightly more dust. It was last registered and on the road in 2016.

So, after a couple of years chasing the owner (a lovely gentleman who has owned the car for 11/12 years but let the registration lapse and lacked the time to get it sorted, owing to work and living interstate as well as family matters), I finally contacted and met up with the owner and was able to make a deal with him to acquire the car a few weeks ago.

The car will certainly need some mechanical love and some general TLC but has low kilometres (178,000 or ~ 110,000 miles), 5 owners from new and full books, service history and receipts for work done. The only thing not original is the wheels - but they're in great shape and are genuine. Even the suspension blocks are in the tool kit.

The car is not currently running and will need the usual (fuel system & ignition, oil, hydraulics, cooling) checks prior to starting and then extracting from the garage. From there it will go to a mechanic's workshop so we can fully assess what it needs and how best to proceed. The suspension system was overhauled completely in 2015/2016 but I expect it to need attention.

I thought long and hard before taking on this project, and always came back to the same answer. Yes. It will be a glorious, original example that I can keep for a long time. I'm glad it wasn't sold when I was going through a tough time financially from late 2020 to late 2021. Occasionally, good things come to those who wait. I'm not usually this patient, and i'm thankful for the owner selling it to me despite many other people chasing him over the years.

I can't wait to share with you the process of getting this car back to health, and utilising the wealth of experience and information in this wonderful forum and its members.

If only I could explain the rich smell of leather inside the car, carefully protected by shearling seat covers for several decades. It smells just like the first Mercedes I sat in as a kit. Identical.
The wood trim is immaculate and as far as I can tell, the car has been garaged by every owner since new and seems to be free of any significant accident damage.

To say I am excited is an understatement. More info to come soon :)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: SteveDuNord on 18 October 2022, 08:41 AM
Congratulations!

Is it thistle green? The paint code should be on the stamped information plaque under the bonnet, there's a decoder somewhere on this site.

Here's the 1979 colours:
 https://cdn.w116.org/lib/Paintwork_79-Apr.pdf

Are the chrome wheelarch trims standard on the 6.9? I know that it's usually recommended to check under them thoroughly in case owners popped them on to cover corrosion. But I suppose many were added just to make them look more modern/swish.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 18 October 2022, 12:57 PM
Fantastic - congratulations!

Look forward to following the car and your project.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 18 October 2022, 01:01 PM
Nice find!  Need more pics 8)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 18 October 2022, 03:17 PM
Looking forward to your progress.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 18 October 2022, 06:19 PM
The colour code is 861H or 661H. I took a photo of the engine inside but didn't get a close-up of the build plate.

The car has very little corrosion, just a small area (30 mm) on the sill where the elastomer paint has degraded. Fortunately we have no salted roads here in Sydney, so cars tend to have lower levels of corrosion- unless you park it at the beach.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: johnnyw116 on 19 October 2022, 05:01 AM
Cool 6.9 and it looks like it was worth the chase , you have 861H silbergrun my 350 has the same color
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Randys01 on 19 October 2022, 06:34 AM
whacko!.what a beauty!  Not a "barn find"...a "concrete garage find" !
We look forward to some more photos and details in due course.
I would suggest you drain the tank before you even start it.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 19 October 2022, 09:17 AM
Beautiful!  Persistence always pays off.  If suspension truly was rebuilt in '15/'16 it probably won't need anything but new spheres, and maybe not even that.  I think you'll have it sorted pretty quick.  Good luck and keep us well fed with plenty of pix!  Cheers,
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Mick74 on 21 October 2022, 02:49 PM
Congratulations, Andrew. I'm delighted for you, as I fondly remember the moment that I got to finally get my car too. I wish you many happy years of miles and smiles. Let us know the last 4 digits of the VIN number, as I'm always curious to know where they come in the 7380 built, especially when it's a '79, like mine.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 21 October 2022, 08:12 PM
Quote from: Mick74 on 21 October 2022, 02:49 PMCongratulations, Andrew. I'm delighted for you, as I fondly remember the moment that I got to finally get my car too. I wish you many happy years of miles and smiles. Let us know the last 4 digits of the VIN number, as I'm always curious to know where they come in the 7380 built, especially when it's a '79, like mine.
Number 5532
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 21 October 2022, 08:16 PM
Quote from: johnnyw116 on 19 October 2022, 05:01 AMCool 6.9 and it looks like it was worth the chase , you have 861H silbergrun my 350 has the same color

Thanks for the tip. I couldn't find good quality colour swatches or examples online.

I can't wait to carefully remove all the dust and grime. But first, need to get it started and moved out of its current resting place.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: nathan on 22 October 2022, 05:44 AM
Good to see you on the forum Andrew,

keep us posted and let us know how you get the car out of the garage. as noted, I reckon wheel jacks from super cheap under each wheel!

regards
Nathan
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Eyeman on 22 October 2022, 06:31 PM
Very nice!  Looks in very nice shape to me, and I even like the wheels.  Be careful if you decide to remove the fender trim, might be difficult to do and not end up taking on more work.  I bet you get it started and the suspension rises right up.  You could order a bottle of two of fluid just in case if you haven't checked it yet.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 23 October 2022, 01:39 AM
Quote from: Eyeman on 22 October 2022, 06:31 PMVery nice!  Looks in very nice shape to me, and I even like the wheels.  Be careful if you decide to remove the fender trim, might be difficult to do and not end up taking on more work.  I bet you get it started and the suspension rises right up.  You could order a bottle of two of fluid just in case if you haven't checked it yet.

No plans to do cosmetic work until the mechanicals are fully sorted - unless there is rust, of course :P

I checked under the vehicle with a UV lamp and mirror to see if any of the fluid is leaking, and it seems the only leaking is coolant. Coolant fluoresces bright green, the hydraulic oil that is in the car (potentially wrong type) fluoresces violet/purple but could also be green under UV if it were another type. Very handy for figuring out what is leaking, especially away from the engine bay. Unsure if brake fluid or ATF are UV reactive but i'll find out.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: revilla on 23 October 2022, 02:34 AM
Hi

What a beauty.
Nice find.
Persistency ALWAYS pays off, no exception.
Please keep us posted on progress. If ge can be of any help don't hesitate, you're where you should be.

Note: UV lamp idea, sounds great. Thx for sharing that tip.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 23 October 2022, 08:06 AM
The engine bay is looking pretty grubby.

I will get the air box stripped and the disintegrated bonnet liner removed and replaced.

As the foam rubber degrades with exposure to air/moisture it becomes slightly acidic and eats into metal. The same thing happens with vintage keyboards and test equipment left in their flight cases... quite sad really.

I'd really like to replace the hoses and coolant expansion tank, plus the washer fluid reservoir. Hopefully I can track down the correct parts - it looks like many have been discontinued by MB and their OEMs. The PVC hoses are pretty brittle and yellow but at least seem to be a relatively common type and should be available from Saint Gobain etc.

If anyone knows the paint colour and/or type for the airbox, it would be extremely helpful. Else, i'll try to find a spare in the interim.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 23 October 2022, 09:06 AM
The air cleaner is satin black. I find semi gloss a bit too shiney.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 23 October 2022, 09:44 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 23 October 2022, 08:06 AMThe engine bay is looking pretty grubby.

I will get the air box stripped and the disintegrated bonnet liner removed and replaced.

As the foam rubber degrades with exposure to air/moisture it becomes slightly acidic and eats into metal. The same thing happens with vintage keyboards and test equipment left in their flight cases... quite sad really.
I'd really like to replace the hoses and coolant expansion tank, plus the washer fluid reservoir. Hopefully I can track down the correct parts - it looks like many have been discontinued by MB and their OEMs. The PVC hoses are pretty brittle and yellow but at least seem to be a relatively common type and should be available from Saint Gobain etc.

If anyone knows the paint colour and/or type for the airbox, it would be extremely helpful. Else, i'll try to find a spare in the interim.
The washer fluid reservoir is hard to clean, as the surface is rough and it holds oils which then hold dirt.  I've found that prolonged treatment with so-called "citrus" or "orange" cleaner concentrates to work best. Look for a brand containing glycol ethers (or add some old brake fluid).  Then power-wash it.  Good as new!

Kudos also on the correct 6.9 4-tube setup!  This is special and well known obsession of Robert's. ;)  Treat the T-shaped fitting with special care, it's NLA and everybody has long since broken theirs.  It's not just a T but rather has a pinhole orifice for antisiphon I think.  Headlight washers won't work right without it.  Cheers,

edit:  PS, I love the giant battery, nice touch.  These cars deserve a giant battery.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 24 October 2022, 12:33 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 23 October 2022, 09:44 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 23 October 2022, 08:06 AMThe engine bay is looking pretty grubby.

I will get the air box stripped and the disintegrated bonnet liner removed and replaced.

As the foam rubber degrades with exposure to air/moisture it becomes slightly acidic and eats into metal. The same thing happens with vintage keyboards and test equipment left in their flight cases... quite sad really.
I'd really like to replace the hoses and coolant expansion tank, plus the washer fluid reservoir. Hopefully I can track down the correct parts - it looks like many have been discontinued by MB and their OEMs. The PVC hoses are pretty brittle and yellow but at least seem to be a relatively common type and should be available from Saint Gobain etc.

If anyone knows the paint colour and/or type for the airbox, it would be extremely helpful. Else, i'll try to find a spare in the interim.
The washer fluid reservoir is hard to clean, as the surface is rough and it holds oils which then hold dirt.  I've found that prolonged treatment with so-called "citrus" or "orange" cleaner concentrates to work best. Look for a brand containing glycol ethers (or add some old brake fluid).  Then power-wash it.  Good as new!

Kudos also on the correct 6.9 4-tube setup!  This is special and well known obsession of Robert's. ;)  Treat the T-shaped fitting with special care, it's NLA and everybody has long since broken theirs.  It's not just a T but rather has a pinhole orifice for antisiphon I think.  Headlight washers won't work right without it.  Cheers,

edit:  PS, I love the giant battery, nice touch.  These cars deserve a giant battery.

My main business is chemical manufacturing & distribution, so I have access to basically every chemical one might need to clean or treat parts. We have diisopropyl ether and d-limonene in stock, both used in circuit board cleaning compounds we have developed. Will the plastic be a nice colour again? The hose is probably better to replace rather than try to fix. It goes brittle and will eventually fail.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: nathan on 24 October 2022, 07:48 AM
Andrew, is your surname Heisenberg? ;)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Eyeman on 24 October 2022, 10:19 AM
Rumb for sure is more of an expert than I am, but I'd assume the airbox on my Euro version was originally gloss black.  I agree, satin would probably look better.

On the hood underliner, in my case it's kind of deceptive how much corrosion I have vs glue.  But it sounds like you are like me, you somewhat want to remove the old foam, get everything back to proper paint, then glue on the new one.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 24 October 2022, 01:12 PM
Quote from: Eyeman on 24 October 2022, 10:19 AMRumb for sure is more of an expert than I am, but I'd assume the airbox on my Euro version was originally gloss black.  I agree, satin would probably look better.


There are a lot of black parts on our cars and and cant say any of them are gloss black. I've used semi-gloss and satin and I feel satin is closer to original.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 24 October 2022, 01:22 PM
If you are not too concerned about absolute originality, you can also fit a later style air filter housing from a W126 or R107 V8.  They are MUCH lighter for sure.  Just make sure the snorkel configuration works for your setup.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: McNuggets on 24 October 2022, 03:15 PM
What a beauty! I love the green color, there were so many great choices available back then.

Rumb, should the block itself be satin as well?
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 24 October 2022, 06:17 PM
Quote from: andrewk on 24 October 2022, 12:33 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 23 October 2022, 09:44 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 23 October 2022, 08:06 AMThe engine bay is looking pretty grubby.

I will get the air box stripped and the disintegrated bonnet liner removed and replaced.

As the foam rubber degrades with exposure to air/moisture it becomes slightly acidic and eats into metal. The same thing happens with vintage keyboards and test equipment left in their flight cases... quite sad really.
I'd really like to replace the hoses and coolant expansion tank, plus the washer fluid reservoir. Hopefully I can track down the correct parts - it looks like many have been discontinued by MB and their OEMs. The PVC hoses are pretty brittle and yellow but at least seem to be a relatively common type and should be available from Saint Gobain etc.

If anyone knows the paint colour and/or type for the airbox, it would be extremely helpful. Else, i'll try to find a spare in the interim.
The washer fluid reservoir is hard to clean, as the surface is rough and it holds oils which then hold dirt.  I've found that prolonged treatment with so-called "citrus" or "orange" cleaner concentrates to work best. Look for a brand containing glycol ethers (or add some old brake fluid).  Then power-wash it.  Good as new!

Kudos also on the correct 6.9 4-tube setup!  This is special and well known obsession of Robert's. ;)  Treat the T-shaped fitting with special care, it's NLA and everybody has long since broken theirs.  It's not just a T but rather has a pinhole orifice for antisiphon I think.  Headlight washers won't work right without it.  Cheers,

edit:  PS, I love the giant battery, nice touch.  These cars deserve a giant battery.

My main business is chemical manufacturing & distribution, so I have access to basically every chemical one might need to clean or treat parts. We have diisopropyl ether and d-limonene in stock, both used in circuit board cleaning compounds we have developed. Will the plastic be a nice colour again? The hose is probably better to replace rather than try to fix. It goes brittle and will eventually fail.
LOL, our careers seem to have much in common!  Don't get me started on polymer and adhesive stabilization.  Anyway, your concoction is pretty close to the orange stuff I found, though water solubility of diisopropyl ether is a lot lower than glycol ethers and other stuff in the "orange" cleaners.  But I don't see how it could really hurt except that it might be too aggressive and couldn't easily be diluted with water-based sufactants.  Anyway, it worked great for me!  And I certainly replaced the brown hoses (brown PVC = degraded PVC).  That's how I learned about the T fitting.  I managed to make a passable replacement but it doesn't quite look stock.  So, cut the hoses off the T, don't risk breakage by pulling!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: BMA on 26 October 2022, 01:23 AM
It seems in 1979 they built a lot of 6.9's. Yours is #5532, mine is #7271, got its first license plate 01. January 1980, so obviously one of the last ones built in 1979.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 12 November 2022, 08:03 PM
Well, the fuel system is going to need a fair bit of work - that's for sure.

I'm not sure why the inside of the fuel door has rust, but it seems to be surface rust only, rather than deep corrosion. I wonder if it is from mud or dirt getting in to that area...
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: gurrier on 13 November 2022, 01:47 AM
Hi,

A blocked drain in the base - careful probing with such as a length of wire should release the debris blocking.  May be easier to see if you remove the fuel filler flap.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 13 November 2022, 01:55 AM
Quote from: gurrier on 13 November 2022, 01:47 AMHi,

A blocked drain in the base - careful probing with such as a length of wire should release the debris blocking.  May be easier to see if you remove the fuel filler flap.

Yes the drain hose runs into the trunk (behind the cladding) then exits into the well and out.  Pretty much guaranteed this hose is well plugged. A good time to also check sunroof drains.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 13 November 2022, 07:32 PM
I'm pretty sure that the fuzzy yellow/green stuff on the fuel cap is a kind of salt formation resulting from moisture condensation on some metal surfaces.  And where there is moisture there is usually rust.  As part of your pre-start fuel system cleanup it might be a good idea to pull the gas tank and clean up the giant fuel sieve etc.  If there's a lot of crap in the tank your new fuel filter could clog up very very fast (ditto small filter on the fuel distributor).  Keep us posted, good luck and cheers,
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 18 November 2022, 08:29 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 13 November 2022, 07:32 PMI'm pretty sure that the fuzzy yellow/green stuff on the fuel cap is a kind of salt formation resulting from moisture condensation on some metal surfaces.  And where there is moisture there is usually rust.  As part of your pre-start fuel system cleanup it might be a good idea to pull the gas tank and clean up the giant fuel sieve etc.  If there's a lot of crap in the tank your new fuel filter could clog up very very fast (ditto small filter on the fuel distributor).  Keep us posted, good luck and cheers,

I have a friend assisting me tomorrow to empty the fuel tank and remove it in order to get the tank acid dipped, inspected and repainted. We'll also remove the fuel delivery system for refurbishment while the tank is off, insert the blocks in the suspension and take out the battery, vacuum out the engine compartment dust.

In addition, I removed the air cleaner unit in order to inspect the oxidation under better lighting, and generally clean it up as it was fairly grubby with dust and oil, plus the disintegrated bonnet liner (factory original crumbly biscuit!)

I have used a warm water solution of Decon 90 degreasing surfactant cleaner (designed for laboratory instruments and glass, safe on mild steel) and a blue 3M non-scratch scrubby pad. The metal is coming up nicely after a bit of a clean. I'll send it off for proper stripping and painting in matte black (matched to the original) when I take the fuel tank. The seal at the bottom of the air cleaner also needs replacing as it is bent and no longer pliable, (is it Üro PN# 0010942280?)

The yellow Zinc plating on the air cleaner has come up like new using the Decon so I'm confident I can get a lot of the other parts looking nice and clean with some work in the future.

NB: Decon can be aggressive and should never be used on Aluminium (contains Potassium hydroxide).
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 20 November 2022, 01:01 AM
Yesterday a friend and I got to work on the car, getting it off the ground, checking the fuel system, rolling and re-inflating the tyres, removal of a few components for stripping and painting. Most importantly, installing the rear suspension chock blocks to enable to the car to be driven out of the garage following restart. We also cleaned the driver's side window area. Wow this car is filthy.

We had intended to remove the fuel tank, but the jacking process took much longer than expected as we couldn't get the rear right side suspension to move down enough to be able to insert the rubber block (see picture).
The fuel tank seemed to be empty or we couldn't get the siphon hose down far enough to reach fuel. I need to get some taller jack stands to be able to access the fuel system and drain safely. A job for next week...

The majority of the rubber in the suspension (and likely steering system) has perished to a crumbly, and it's going to be fairly tedious to replace it all (not to mention the difficulty in obtaining a lot of the parts which seem to have been discontinued).

I knew what I was getting myself into...
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 06 December 2022, 05:56 PM
I had an extremely tedious experience draining the fuel tank after thinking it was empty, it turns out 40 L was still in there. Whoops. After that, the fuel system was removed and given a good clean.



Last night, I managed to get the engine to turn over freely.
I left the fuel supply system out of the car so no fuel was supplied to the engine. Then, a brand new Varta battery was installed, voltages at critical points measured and all the fuses inspected for corrosion. Electronics all seem to be working and belts intact, so we decided to crank the engine. It turns over well with no hesitation or obvious resistance. It even fired almost immediately after the key was turned - probably the last little bit of fuel in the injectors.

I am extremely happy that everything is turning, and all of the fluids look to be in good condition, in line with the maintenance history.

I sent the fuel system brackets off for Nickel-Zinc plating and passivation as they were pitted and filthy, but otherwise in good condition. A replacement bracket from Niemoeller is several hundred dollars so I figure restoration will be the best bet for parts like this. The battery tray is just over $100 AUD from Niemoeller so I ordered a replacement with some other parts.

Next the rear HPF axle valve (in really bad shape, caked in mud and oil) will be removed and sent to Martin Werminghausen in the USA for refurbishment and the return hoses replaced as they have perished, one is missing! then the fuel system will be reinstalled; completely refurbished with new hoses, pump, filter, strainer, accumulator, damper, mounting buffers. Then it will be time to get this old girl running and out of the garage :D

In the interim, I have also purchased a lot of rubber seals, suspension, brake and axle parts which have deteriorated and require attention. Those are small, moderate to low priced items I can fix while waiting for parts to arrive from the USA, Germany and from the electroplating shop in Queanbeyan (Electroplating Technology for those of you in Australia). This way I avoid over capitalising on the expensive parts until I can diagnose them properly.

This forum is a very good resource for a W116 6.9 owner, and I am extremely grateful for the time put in to the content on here - it has been extremely helpful.





Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 06 December 2022, 06:07 PM
The fuel system hoses were rock hard, likely original to the car and weeped fuel when flexed. A reminder to inspect your fuel system hose if it hasn't been checked recently. Carrying a fire extinguisher is probably a good idea too.

The pump and accumulator were original but the filter was replaced somewhere around 2005 (2005 date code on the can).
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 06 December 2022, 06:16 PM
Nice progress.  Absolutely a good idea to have a fire extinguisher handy when working on the fuel system and of course disconnect the battery.  As well keeping one in the cab when driving is also a no brainer.  As an old Benz buddy of mine says:"The entertainment value of an engine fire should not be dismissed out of hand"... ;D
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 07 December 2022, 05:47 PM
You are moving forward relatively fast, great to see and follow your project.

My car had a shot accumulator and fuel pump 1,5 yrs ago, so I decided to renew everything. Although the bracket got a good clean.

Adding a pic taken before assembly, can serve as an inspiration  :)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 09 December 2022, 01:45 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 07 December 2022, 05:47 PMYou are moving forward relatively fast, great to see and follow your project.

My car had a shot accumulator and fuel pump 1,5 yrs ago, so I decided to renew everything. Although the bracket got a good clean.

Adding a pic taken before assembly, can serve as an inspiration  :)

Hmm this is car porn, nice 8)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: BCK1963 on 09 December 2022, 03:47 PM
Indeed, the pump unit looks orgasmic.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 09 December 2022, 04:57 PM
We build these lovely fuel assemblies and the stick them under the car in the dirtiest location!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 10 December 2022, 06:35 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 09 December 2022, 01:45 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 07 December 2022, 05:47 PMYou are moving forward relatively fast, great to see and follow your project.

My car had a shot accumulator and fuel pump 1,5 yrs ago, so I decided to renew everything. Although the bracket got a good clean.

Adding a pic taken before assembly, can serve as an inspiration  :)

Hmm this is car porn, nice 8)

I hope you are all over 18  ;)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 11 December 2022, 07:12 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 07 December 2022, 05:47 PMYou are moving forward relatively fast, great to see and follow your project.

My car had a shot accumulator and fuel pump 1,5 yrs ago, so I decided to renew everything. Although the bracket got a good clean.

Adding a pic taken before assembly, can serve as an inspiration  :)

Inspiration yes but also very useful as I did not take adequate photos to be able to reassemble the bracket, owing to significant dismantling on the car - the bolts and buffers were almost impossible to separate. Very helpful indeed. Thank you!

Here's my rear axle valve mud cake. I sent it off to Martin Werminghausen in the USA (600 Air Suspension Shop) for rebuilding / machining as I lack the capability to test high pressure hydraulics here. Martin is a big w116 6.9 fan, and very knowledgeable on these systems.


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 12 December 2022, 05:40 PM
Great to hear the pic was useful!

Adding one before the clean.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 13 December 2022, 06:00 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 07 December 2022, 05:47 PMYou are moving forward relatively fast, great to see and follow your project.

My car had a shot accumulator and fuel pump 1,5 yrs ago, so I decided to renew everything. Although the bracket got a good clean.

Adding a pic taken before assembly, can serve as an inspiration  :)
This beautiful picture reminds me of a question that maybe you or somebody can answer.  On your assembly the hose connecting the filter and accumulator has a foam cover.  If memory serves me (not likely  ??? ) my car doesn't have the foam which means that it didn't come with one from the parts house.  Nor does the pump => filter hose.  Do you know what the purpose is?  Vibration damping and physical protection come to mind.  So does protection against a cracked hose spraying mist - the cover could collect the leak so it just drips instead of spraying explosive mist.  A few months ago I had exactly such a spraying scenario, very scary and dangerous. Now I'm wondering if I should go back and add  covers to the hoses.  I suppose it's just neoprene foam.  Thanks and cheers,

https://forum.w116.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=13333;image
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 14 December 2022, 08:38 AM
I somehow believed back then the purpose of the foam was to protect the high pressure fuel hose (filter to accumulator) from physical wear and tear. As you can see from the pic taken before disassembly, the hose is in physical contact with the right rear axle (lays on top). Minor relative movements between axle and hose could lead to wear and eventually a leakage.

This was my assumption back then. I didn't spend to much thinking on this.

I liked your idea/assumption that the foam shall prevent fuel spraying. But why not on the hose from pump to filter?

Maybe someone on the forum knows ....
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 16 December 2022, 10:20 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 14 December 2022, 08:38 AMI somehow believed back then the purpose of the foam was to protect the high pressure fuel hose (filter to accumulator) from physical wear and tear. As you can see from the pic taken before disassembly, the hose is in physical contact with the right rear axle (lays on top). Minor relative movements between axle and hose could lead to wear and eventually a leakage.

This was my assumption back then. I didn't spend to much thinking on this.

I liked your idea/assumption that the foam shall prevent fuel spraying. But why not on the hose from pump to filter?

Maybe someone on the forum knows ....

Mine definitely was not so crammed, nor touching the axle or CV joint - but I notice you have a SE - was the 6.9 fuel system transplanted? I thought the SE models, particularly the V8s had a different fuel accumulator (single hole) system when compared with the SEL. It changed mid way through production, but also might be dependent on whether the car was destined for the US, European, Japanese or Australian markets.

I'd keep that a regular inspection item as it's on the high pressure side of the pump.

I am still waiting for my bracket to come back from the electroplating shop; I think it is stuck in the post.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 17 December 2022, 12:52 PM
Yes, it's a SE with a 6.9 and the fuel system that belongs to the 6.9

I have seen the single hole accumulators. My engine requires a two hole accumulator, according to spec. But I believe a single hole accumulator fulfills the same function.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 20 December 2022, 02:59 AM
The air cleaner has been sand blasted and prepared for painting. If anyone has the RAL or other black paint code for the air cleaner, it would be greatly appreciated.

Some surface pitting from rust is evident, but this will be easily sorted out by a good paint shop. Will post a full picture and before/after images once it's done.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 20 December 2022, 10:33 AM
I think it is just black satin/semi gloss.

Did you know the clamps around the lid are available new for a small price?
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 21 December 2022, 05:01 AM
Quote from: rumb on 20 December 2022, 10:33 AMI think it is just black satin/semi gloss.

Did you know the clamps around the lid are available new for a small price?

It is black satin, but there must be a paint code - as the balance or bias of red, especially, can be different. In any case, I found a reputable painter who can do the work in a few weeks. He suggests a 2k / solvent base paint with flattening, in straight black tint. I am extremely happy with the sandblasting.

As for the new clamps - are the new ones yellow Zinc (Cr6+) plated? Do you have a PN?
None of the new hardware I purchased from MB recently has Yellow Zinc plating. I'm actually considering doing the plating of some parts myself, will think about that during the next few days. All the chemicals and equipment are here already.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 21 December 2022, 04:09 PM
Should be be 0000941955.

I used the caswell plating kit to do mine.

A little extra "brightener" will give the a good shiny plating.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 23 December 2022, 04:21 AM
Parts finally arrived, now all assembled with new rubber buffers and hardware.

I used Gates Barricade hose for the accumulator to damper section as it has sufficient reinforcement and is rated for high pressure, despite not being a high pressure connection. Better safe than sorry.

Still trying to find a good solution for the larger hose clamps. I'll probably change these out for a slightly different type - undecided at the moment.

The W126 damper is also much nicer than the original part - I obtained it from Niemöller. Hoses are from MB and Cohline (OEM) via Pelican Parts. Pump and accumulator are Bosch, Filter from Mahle. Hardware from Würth, Niemöller and MB. I used A4/316 washers and locking nuts which should prevent corrosion and bolt locking. I just need to replace the bolt for the accumulator bracket as I didn't have enough of those on hand. Will probably change it to a M5 hex bolt in A4/316 stainless.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 27 December 2022, 10:50 AM
Looks great!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 27 December 2022, 12:41 PM
Beautiful!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 31 December 2022, 01:00 AM
I received the HPF rear axle valve back from Martin Werminghausen - he machined and re-sealed it in record time, now looking great - ready to be reinstalled in the car once I finish painting the bracket and obtain some new sheet metal screws. The front connecting piece was also changed, as the ball joints had completely disintegrated and were held on by thoughts and prayers.

valve - 1.jpeg

In addition, I also sucked out the hydraulic oil from the tank (5-6 Litres) and it was looking pretty grubby. Replaced it with brand new Febi ZH-M oil, will allow this to circulate once I have got the engine running and then change it again (with a new filter) to get all of the junk out of the system. I cranked the engine with the axle valve disconnected and got fresh oil coming out of the supply line at the rear, displacing some amber to dark brown crud. I am curious to know if there is a better or different option for hydraulic oil - if you have a recommendation please let me know. 
HPF dirty oil.jpeg

Also noticed that the engine oil had a little bit of a fuel smell so I sucked out 3 Litres and replaced it with Liqui Moly 20W-50. Not exactly an oil change but will ensure there is enough fresh oil with the MoS2 moving around the engine during the first start.
fuel hose with gunk.jpeg
The fuel supply line from tank was filled with an interesting crystalline substance which i'm going to have analysed by GC-MS. Waiting on a 46 mm tool to remove the strainer as it is just about the only tool I don't have on hand, and was not available from the local trade tools store. 


For the knowledgeable people here - I have to replace the rubber components on the axle cross member bar which the HPF valve connects to. I don't know what these rubber pieces are called and have looked extensively on the EPC, Niemöeller and elsewhere. It's a rubber bushing with a cut in it to facilitate getting it over the bar, held on by a steel bracket and two bolts. If you know what this is called, or even better, a part number for it - i'll order and replace those too.
unknown rubber piece.jpeg


anyhow, that's my New Year's Eve work done. Back to it on the second of January.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 31 December 2022, 09:25 AM
1163233585
Sway bar bushing. Listed under suspension.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 31 December 2022, 11:27 AM
Is this sway bar bushing not part number 1163261381?  You need 2x
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 31 December 2022, 02:09 PM
I stand corrected.  :P
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 02 January 2023, 03:59 AM
Quote from: daantjie on 31 December 2022, 11:27 AMIs this sway bar bushing not part number 1163261381?  You need 2x

Yup, that is the correct part - thank you. I couldn't find it on the Niemöller lookup or Pelican Parts car search. Upon using the part number in Nemiga and also Pelican Parts' site, I was able to correctly identify the sway bar mounting bushing - and have now ordered it. Basically all the rubber parts have deteriorated, so it's going to be fairly time consuming identifying and replacing them all - along with the fasteners which have rusted or lost a considerable amount of their sacrificial plating/passivation.

In other news, I found a full set of HPF struts and hoses (used and grubby), three water pumps, a starter motor and replacement Bowden cable for the suspension control valve locally for $1650 AUD plus freight. I figured this was a solid deal and couldn't refuse the chance of having some spares. 

I'll use one of the water pumps as a core to send back to MB Classic Centre and probably make the others available for others to use as cores or rebuild them myself, making a nice video along the way. Four water pumps might be considered hoarding...
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 04 January 2023, 05:53 PM
Well, I decided to do some more checking and making notes of what will be required to get this car running, reliable and safe. MB Classic Center seem to have a sale on, so my parts order just became somewhat less painful.

I started with inspecting the valley and areas surrounding the fuel injectors. I found that quite a lot of the connecting pieces; elbow shape, "Y" shape and "X" shape in the vacuum system have perished and have been glued together over the years to fix vacuum/pressure leaks. I will replace the lines, connecting pieces and the check valves (the cream coloured parts) but use Blu-Tac if there are leaks in the short term (handy vacuum putty trick that we use in the lab to find leaks in our high (10^-3 Torr etc) vacuum systems and instruments.

I'm curious to know what you have used to replace these parts given they seem to be NLA from Mercedes. If there are alternate part numbers from later models (e.g. W126) that work, or there are solutions available as shelf items, please let me know. I have some fittings and so on from a few different pneumatic/engineering companies such as SMC and Festo but i'm not sure those materials will be adequate for the higher temperature application. Will check and post my findings.

Also, I want to make a new wiring harness for the top of the engine but I am struggling to figure out the types of connectors that have been used. The outer jacket has perished and the insulation on the wire itself is in poor shape. Do you happen to know who makes these connectors, and if so, which series and models are the connectors? I'll ask K-jet.biz (ordered a warm-up regulator replacement from him) to see if he knows the type of connector and post accordingly.

Here are some examples:


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: gurrier on 05 January 2023, 05:19 AM
Hugely interesting thread for even such as myself with a 350SE- keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: BCK1963 on 05 January 2023, 06:24 AM
Andrew,
regarding the hydraulic oil system: There is a little filter located underneath the valve unit on top of the oil reservoir.
I had changed mine when I removed the reservoir for cleaning.

Interested to hear what the crystalline crap in the fule line will turn out to be. Did you already do solubility tests? You won't get rust through the GC column :-).
Is it just by chance or do 6.9s have a particular attractivity for chemistry-related folks?

    Bernd
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 05 January 2023, 11:27 AM
The engine wire harness I repaired by cutting it off back along the fire wall. After removing sheathing I cut the wires all offset a bit from each other.  I then used non-insulated butt crimp connectors (they are smaller diameter than insulated ones) and covered in shrink tubing.

To take apart the  harness you need to work from the ends. Removed the connector housing and unsolder the pins. For the Bosch fuel injector connector and boot you can buy those on autohaus.com and elsewhere.  New pins and sockets are avail from MB

Take photos and make drawings of everything.

https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/1287013003

Re-assemble by making the butt connectors and then slide new sheathing on as you go and branch out to the other legs with smaller tubing. The re-solder the end connectors.

These are the tubings still avail from MB:
N040621005200
N040621007200
N040621008200
N040621012200
N040621016200
N040621022200
N040621025200

the 4-5 from last digits are the size.


I have extra lengths of most wire colors if you need some. Let me know the  colors and lengths you need.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 05 January 2023, 05:54 PM
Quote from: gurrier on 05 January 2023, 05:19 AMHugely interesting thread for even such as myself with a 350SE- keep up the good work.
Thank you!
Quote from: BCK1963 on 05 January 2023, 06:24 AMAndrew,
regarding the hydraulic oil system: There is a little filter located underneath the valve unit on top of the oil reservoir.
I had changed mine when I removed the reservoir for cleaning.

Interested to hear what the crystalline crap in the fule line will turn out to be. Did you already do solubility tests? You won't get rust through the GC column :-).
Is it just by chance or do 6.9s have a particular attractivity for chemistry-related folks?

    Bernd

Hi Bernd, everything that goes through the GC/MS gets filtered. I learned this the hard way after a few "failed" columns at $800 a piece. The material seems organic but looks awfully like rust. We have access ICP-MS too given our involvement with battery chemistry, so any solids that are not soluble in organic solvent will end up going to the ICP lab... Iron is a bad word in our lab most of the time.

I think the problem solving which is learned from chemistry practice is really useful when working on cars. Given you need to solve many of the same issues, just in a different context. Also, older Mercedes are really quite simple; you can follow a problem from start point to end point or backwards without obfuscation by software. Of course the reality of these things is not as simple. Why did it take me 2 hours to change the little filter in the HPF regulator? Learning that it has an allen key in the end of the bolt to hold the threaded part while you undo the nut... after I wrangled with it for considerable time. I think it had never been changed, as the bolts and fittings looked and felt untouched, the oil coming out of the filter was black - even after changing 5-6 litres with fresh Febi oil. Plenty of hydrocarbon cleaning later and it was shiny new. Check out this filter:
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 05 January 2023, 06:09 PM
Quote from: rumb on 05 January 2023, 11:27 AMThe engine wire harness I repaired by cutting it off back along the fire wall. After removing sheathing I cut the wires all offset a bit from each other.  I then used non-insulated butt crimp connectors (they are smaller diameter than insulated ones) and covered in shrink tubing.

To take apart the  harness you need to work from the ends. Removed the connector housing and unsolder the pins. For the Bosch fuel injector connector and boot you can buy those on autohaus.com and elsewhere.  New pins and sockets are avail from MB

Take photos and make drawings of everything.

https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/1287013003

Re-assemble by making the butt connectors and then slide new sheathing on as you go and branch out to the other legs with smaller tubing. The re-solder the end connectors.

These are the tubings still avail from MB:
N040621005200
N040621007200
N040621008200
N040621012200
N040621016200
N040621022200
N040621025200

the 4-5 from last digits are the size.


I have extra lengths of most wire colors if you need some. Let me know the  colors and lengths you need.

Thank you! I just added the tubing to my Classic Center order.

Which wire gauge and type did you use? I have a lot of wire and cable on hand but i'm not sure it is the right size or number of conductors/type of insulation for the application.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 05 January 2023, 07:56 PM

Which wire gauge and type did you use? I have a lot of wire and cable on hand but i'm not sure it is the right size or number of conductors/type of insulation for the application.
[/quote]


I have original wire stripped from a spare parts wire harness.  The gauge of wires are shown on all wire diagrams.

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 05 January 2023, 08:02 PM
I went through this but I don't think I posted the details.  So, these may help.  I just looked at old harness and used same gauge wire torn out of another car.  Nothing special about it though maintaining the look is certainly nice.  Cheers,

-----------------quick edit to clarify more:
The pins are looking DOWN onto the connectors.  The index tab on the plugs is shown.  I made it so the whole thing could be unplugged next time I have to pull the engine (hopefully never, but who knows?).  That plug is just build arouund the standard MB 6-pin plug.  The harness has 7 wires so I just used a single pin plug for one of them as illustrated.  Dimensions are from the point where the wires exit the main wiring loom.  The black cover was just pvc tubing, not shrink stuff.  I did use shrink tubing on a couple places.  You can see it on the pic.  Doing this may be slightly preventative.  I found that  LOT of the wires had bad or cracked insulation.  Just a problem waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 06 January 2023, 10:42 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 05 January 2023, 08:02 PMI went through this but I don't think I posted the details.  So, these may help.  I just looked at old harness and used same gauge wire torn out of another car.  Nothing special about it though maintaining the look is certainly nice.  Cheers,

-----------------quick edit to clarify more:
The pins are looking DOWN onto the connectors.  The index tab on the plugs is shown.  I made it so the whole thing could be unplugged next time I have to pull the engine (hopefully never, but who knows?).  That plug is just build arouund the standard MB 6-pin plug.  The harness has 7 wires so I just used a single pin plug for one of them as illustrated.  Dimensions are from the point where the wires exit the main wiring loom.  The black cover was just pvc tubing, not shrink stuff.  I did use shrink tubing on a couple places.  You can see it on the pic.  Doing this may be slightly preventative.  I found that  LOT of the wires had bad or cracked insulation.  Just a problem waiting to happen.

THANK YOU very much. This is essentially what I had planned to draw up and document, but you have really got every detail needed to rebuild the harness on your drawing - it saves a huge amount of time. I'll check some Bosch part numbers for each type of connector and post them. These old wiring harnesses are definitely a hazard, especially the K jetronic system components and safety fuel cutoff.

This evening I opened up the first aid kit / fuel tank sender cover and found some rust at the top of the tank I'll take it out over the weekend and will take to a local radiator shop who can sort the tank properly. Will rebuild the fuel level sensor and clean out the boot at the same time, checking for rust and anything else which might need attention.
 All things are coming together now - i'm hoping to have the car running in 2-3 weeks. This is incredibly exciting. A 3+ year chase is now feeling very much worthwhile.

Thank you everyone for your assistance - I could not do this without your knowledge and guidance.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 06 January 2023, 11:33 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 06 January 2023, 10:42 AMTHANK YOU very much. This is essentially what I had planned to draw up and document, but you have really got every detail needed to rebuild the harness on your drawing - it saves a huge amount of time. I'll check some Bosch part numbers for each type of connector and post them. These old wiring harnesses are definitely a hazard, especially the K jetronic system components and safety fuel cutoff.

Thank you everyone for your assistance - I could not do this without your knowledge and guidance.
Glad it's helpful.  FWIW, I found the connectors to be pretty robust, especially the ones with round pins.  They seem to be glass filled melamine or bakelite or something like that.  Most of mine got reused after cleaning up, desoldering etc.  Then a few came off a parts car.  I wouldn't have any qualms about reusing them unless they're very discolored, cracked etc.  But if you get new that's always best!  I did replace all the rubber boots, they don't fare as well.  Cheers,
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 06 January 2023, 07:59 PM
Quote from: raueda1 on 06 January 2023, 11:33 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 06 January 2023, 10:42 AMTHANK YOU very much. This is essentially what I had planned to draw up and document, but you have really got every detail needed to rebuild the harness on your drawing - it saves a huge amount of time. I'll check some Bosch part numbers for each type of connector and post them. These old wiring harnesses are definitely a hazard, especially the K jetronic system components and safety fuel cutoff.

Thank you everyone for your assistance - I could not do this without your knowledge and guidance.
Glad it's helpful.  FWIW, I found the connectors to be pretty robust, especially the ones with round pins.  They seem to be glass filled melamine or bakelite or something like that.  Most of mine got reused after cleaning up, desoldering etc.  Then a few came off a parts car.  I wouldn't have any qualms about reusing them unless they're very discolored, cracked etc.  But if you get new that's always best!  I did replace all the rubber boots, they don't fare as well.  Cheers,

The connectors seem a bit brittle on my car and the rubber parts are perished. I'd like to just get them replaced as it's not a major expense for peace of mind. I guess we have a hot climate here so that probably has not helped their cause. Waiting for Bosch to get back to me

It turns out a lot of the rubber vacuum parts on the top of the engine are still available. I have almost finalised the parts order, will give an account of which parts go where once they arrive and I can take some pictures for you all.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 08 January 2023, 06:29 PM
I removed the fuel tank yesterday and took it to a shop for repair and coating the inside. This is the junk I found in there. Should have it back within two weeks. I am going to replace the fuel level sender, just waiting to see if MB Classic Center have it in stock.

During the removal of the brake lines, I found one of the fittings had been a bit wrecked in the past. Unfortunately, I couldn't get enough traction or grip on it with the flared wrenches and it caused further damage. During this process I damaged the hard line and had to cut it - so i'm going need to replace it. First mistake of the whole job so far. I still haven't been able to separate the hard line fitting and the flexible hose coupling, no matter how hard I try. I cleaned it, added penetrating oil to the threads and it just would not budge. Not pleased with myself, and left after an 8 hour day feeling pretty defeated. If anyone has a spare rear left hand hard line, please let me know - i'll buy it from you. Else i'll have to have it made, but don't have a good template (i.e. the old line) to have a new one custom made.

Also, ATE no longer make the pistons for the brake calipers - so i'll have to either find NOS or an alternate manufacturer.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 08 January 2023, 06:42 PM
Don't feel too bad 8)  we've all been in "rounded nut/bolt purgatory" before, it's part of the "fun" ;D
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: ramiro on 08 January 2023, 07:14 PM
About the brake lines just get some CuNiFer copper lines for the brake line , in europe you can get them preflared with the needed lenght, you can then bend them with your hands super easy and they will never rust.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 08 January 2023, 07:17 PM
Those fittings are a nightmare! One of the fittings on my car was ... argh! I gave up and had to bring it to a workshop. They used a considerable amount of heat to separate.

Please tell us more about the tank, the cleaning and coating process. I've heard mixed stories when the tank has been coated ... some say that after a while the coating falls off and lands in the fuel system. It all depends on the quality of work and the coating process, I guess. Hence would be interesting to learn more about this.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 08 January 2023, 09:07 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 08 January 2023, 07:17 PMThose fittings are a nightmare! One of the fittings on my car was ... argh! I gave up and had to bring it to a workshop. They used a considerable amount of heat to separate.

Please tell us more about the tank, the cleaning and coating process. I've heard mixed stories when the tank has been coated ... some say that after a while the coating falls off and lands in the fuel system. It all depends on the quality of work and the coating process, I guess. Hence would be interesting to learn more about this.

Lots of swearing, sweat and basically tears. No dice. I'll get the hot air gun onto it and see if some yelling helps.

So, the tank cleaning is being done by a radiator shop.

First step as follows; tank is cleaned with a basic (NO ACID!) degreaser solution to remove the fuel varnish and polymerised junk. Some rust goes along with it. Then this process is repeated then pressure washed hot, followed by immediate cold water rinse to slow down the oxidation process as the metal is now exposed to the air (and water).
Then, the tank is sealed up, submerged in a large tank of solution with some kind of surfactant and corrosion inhibit (looks very similar to radiator coolant) then pressurised - any air leaks will form bubbles which are then marked, repaired etc.
Following that, the tank is cleaned again with degreaser and solvents (I am guessing something with a ketone group; methyl ethyl ketone, acetone etc) to remove any previous coating. Then it is dried in an air stream. Following that, the tank is filled with a product called RedKote which is a solution of some kind of polymer, a dye and acetone. Then that mixture is washed around the tank by agitation then drained.
The method is shown here; https://www.ftrs.com.au/redkote/usage/

It is compatible with all fuels including E85 and high methanol content racing fuel which cause problems with other coatings. Just as long as there isn't any acetone, methyl ethyl ketone or dichloromethane etc in there - it should be fine.

Here is some information from the safety data sheet (via Manufacturer's website - https://www.ftrs.com.au/redkote/dry/sds.pdf):
Screen Shot 2023-01-09 at 12.59.10 pm.png



Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 08 January 2023, 10:23 PM
Heat gun too lightweight for this jobby I'm afraid.  You need direct flame from a propane type torch like a Bernz - O - Matic or similar for that sucker.  Red hot then cool a bit then have a crack at it.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 09 January 2023, 12:25 AM
Quote from: daantjie on 08 January 2023, 10:23 PMHeat gun too lightweight for this jobby I'm afraid.  You need direct flame from a propane type torch like a Bernz - O - Matic or similar for that sucker.  Red hot then cool a bit then have a crack at it.

I have both propane/butane-isobutane and MAPP torches too... but it's on the car chassis. Non-removable bracket...
I do like a good fire though, and the fuel tank is now out of the car.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: BCK1963 on 09 January 2023, 03:44 AM
Hi Andrew,
I suppose that the radiator shop guys know what they are doing and basically all described steps seem reasonable. Though, the step of rust removal is not apparent to me. This pickling is usually done with an acid, followed by neutralization and excessive rinsing with water. On the other hand the tech data sheet of RedKote says that it it capable of incapsulating slight rust, it is said to even close small leaks.

As you say the old coat is removed with ketone solvents.
The RedKote is a polymer which contains 50 % chlorine and 50 % hydrogene (by atom numbers, not weight) along the carbon polymer chain. You may call it an improved PVC which contains only 25 % chlorine. The higher the amount of chlorine, the more polar it is and the higher the resistance to non-polar hydrocarbons. Standard PVC is not long-term resistant to gasoline.
Polyvinylidene chloride / PVDC is not that widely used, more common is polyvinylidene fluoride, or PVDF. This is very similar to PVDC, only that there are fluorine atoms in the place of chlorine atoms. When adding more fluorine at the expence of hydrogen you finally end up with PTFE / Teflon, which contains 100 % fluorine atoms along the carbon chain. I suppose that PVDC is used for solubility reasons.

So much for the little chemical detour from the mechanical main road.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 09 January 2023, 07:30 AM
Quote from: BCK1963 on 09 January 2023, 03:44 AMHi Andrew,
I suppose that the radiator shop guys know what they are doing and basically all described steps seem reasonable. Though, the step of rust removal is not apparent to me. This pickling is usually done with an acid, followed by neutralization and excessive rinsing with water. On the other hand the tech data sheet of RedKote says that it it capable of incapsulating slight rust, it is said to even close small leaks.

As you say the old coat is removed with ketone solvents.
The RedKote is a polymer which contains 50 % chlorine and 50 % hydrogene (by atom numbers, not weight) along the carbon polymer chain. You may call it an improved PVC which contains only 25 % chlorine. The higher the amount of chlorine, the more polar it is and the higher the resistance to non-polar hydrocarbons. Standard PVC is not long-term resistant to gasoline.
Polyvinylidene chloride / PVDC is not that widely used, more common is polyvinylidene fluoride, or PVDF. This is very similar to PVDC, only that there are fluorine atoms in the place of chlorine atoms. When adding more fluorine at the expence of hydrogen you finally end up with PTFE / Teflon, which contains 100 % fluorine atoms along the carbon chain. I suppose that PVDC is used for solubility reasons.

So much for the little chemical detour from the mechanical main road.

Bernd, A detour to chemistry land is always welcome. I asked about the lack of hydrochloric acid pickling step  as it makes sense to use an acid to reduce the Iron oxide but the answer was simple; it tends to weaken the tank if it already has rust and creates more pitting/pinholes. Then a hot caustic solution is for dissolving the Zinc plating and exposing raw metal in other areas, not just removing other contaminants. He said the Mercedes tanks were some of the best around due to the Zinc plating, where others were bare metal and long disintegrated, especially so with hygroscopic ethanol-containing fuel. The subsequent washing steps need to be done with cold water to lower the rate of oxidation. It would be too difficult to Zinc plate an old tank unless it was cut open and sand blasted, cleaned perfectly. By that stage you're better off making a new tank from hot galvanised steel and conformal coating it with some kind of urethane/epoxy.

I am also curious about the choice of reagents used in this coating. Many halogenated compounds (typically those with Bromine or Fluorine) tend to come with other baggage - persistence in the environment (especially with Fluorine... e.g. PFOA/PFAS family), health concerns, solubility problems, cost, difficult of manufacture. PTFE would be a great, near ideal non metallic coating for the inside of a theoretical fuel tank as it has wonderful chemical resistance but it's essentially insoluble in everything and quite difficult to handle.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 09 January 2023, 10:37 AM
Hot air gun wont cut it to loosen brake/hydro lines.  Heat it up with a torch should do though.

Use Cunifer copper nickel brake line, NOT regular copper.

https://www.brakeconnect.com/4-reasons-to-use-cunifer-copper-nickel-brake-line
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 11 January 2023, 05:27 PM
Thanks all for your help.

Actually, a contact has found a replacement original part - 123 420 54 28 64 which seems to be used on very many Benz models. It will likely work out cheaper than buying a roll of tubing, tools and fittings, and be original.

Unfortunately the sway bar bushing is unavailable from Mercedes Benz... I'm going to ask Niemöller and see if they can get the part, else, I might have to put the feelers out to you all to see if I can find spares. They are perished, and this will likely translate to either bad handling, noises/clunks or issues with the HPF.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 11 January 2023, 06:16 PM
Quote from: andrewk on 09 January 2023, 07:30 AM
Quote from: BCK1963 on 09 January 2023, 03:44 AMHi Andrew,
I suppose that the radiator shop guys know what they are doing and basically all described steps seem reasonable. Though, the step of rust removal is not apparent to me. This pickling is usually done with an acid, followed by neutralization and excessive rinsing with water. On the other hand the tech data sheet of RedKote says that it it capable of incapsulating slight rust, it is said to even close small leaks.

As you say the old coat is removed with ketone solvents.
The RedKote is a polymer which contains 50 % chlorine and 50 % hydrogene (by atom numbers, not weight) along the carbon polymer chain. You may call it an improved PVC which contains only 25 % chlorine. The higher the amount of chlorine, the more polar it is and the higher the resistance to non-polar hydrocarbons. Standard PVC is not long-term resistant to gasoline.
Polyvinylidene chloride / PVDC is not that widely used, more common is polyvinylidene fluoride, or PVDF. This is very similar to PVDC, only that there are fluorine atoms in the place of chlorine atoms. When adding more fluorine at the expence of hydrogen you finally end up with PTFE / Teflon, which contains 100 % fluorine atoms along the carbon chain. I suppose that PVDC is used for solubility reasons.

So much for the little chemical detour from the mechanical main road.

Bernd, A detour to chemistry land is always welcome. I asked about the lack of hydrochloric acid pickling step  as it makes sense to use an acid to reduce the Iron oxide but the answer was simple; it tends to weaken the tank if it already has rust and creates more pitting/pinholes. Then a hot caustic solution is for dissolving the Zinc plating and exposing raw metal in other areas, not just removing other contaminants. He said the Mercedes tanks were some of the best around due to the Zinc plating, where others were bare metal and long disintegrated, especially so with hygroscopic ethanol-containing fuel. The subsequent washing steps need to be done with cold water to lower the rate of oxidation. It would be too difficult to Zinc plate an old tank unless it was cut open and sand blasted, cleaned perfectly. By that stage you're better off making a new tank from hot galvanised steel and conformal coating it with some kind of urethane/epoxy.

I am also curious about the choice of reagents used in this coating. Many halogenated compounds (typically those with Bromine or Fluorine) tend to come with other baggage - persistence in the environment (especially with Fluorine... e.g. PFOA/PFAS family), health concerns, solubility problems, cost, difficult of manufacture. PTFE would be a great, near ideal non metallic coating for the inside of a theoretical fuel tank as it has wonderful chemical resistance but it's essentially insoluble in everything and quite difficult to handle.
Wow, this is making me nervous!   :o   

I did the whole tank cleaning thing 4 or 5 years ago.  My tank strainer was half clogged with rust particles so the strainer was replaced.  I pulled the tank and cleaned it out in stages.  First was repeated rinses with "orange cleaner" until the rinses were clean.  Then that followed by water rinses which were also clean.  Then several "drying" rinses using denatured alcohol stove fuel followed by further drying rinses with acetone.  These were water-white.  All the other filters were replaced &/or cleaned, followed by years of trouble-free driving.  I've used ethanol-free fuel about 75% of the time.  But I never tried to coat the tank as described.  Yikes.  How concerned should I be?  Great job on all this, BTW.  Cheers,

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 11 January 2023, 06:31 PM
1163261381 rear sway bar bushing is available from MB @$30 each.

Probably  has to come from Germany.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 11 January 2023, 07:05 PM
Quote from: rumb on 11 January 2023, 06:31 PM1163261381 rear sway bar bushing is available from MB @$30 each.

Probably  has to come from Germany.
Where do you get the info? Pelican advised that Germany has none, some weeks after placing the order. If I order it from the dealer here they tend to charge 3-5x what it costs to get it from Classic Center and it take 6-8 weeks to arrive but I have asked them if they can order it anyway, as they are very close to my house and workplace and the parts guy has been very helpful. Just not great pricing for big ticket items...
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 12 January 2023, 05:45 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 11 January 2023, 07:05 PM
Quote from: rumb on 11 January 2023, 06:31 PM1163261381 rear sway bar bushing is available from MB @$30 each.

Probably  has to come from Germany.
Where do you get the info? Pelican advised that Germany has none, some weeks after placing the order. If I order it from the dealer here they tend to charge 3-5x what it costs to get it from Classic Center and it take 6-8 weeks to arrive but I have asked them if they can order it anyway, as they are very close to my house and workplace and the parts guy has been very helpful. Just not great pricing for big ticket items...


MB Sydney also responded that the bushings are NLA/discontinued. The saga continues...


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 12 January 2023, 09:51 AM
hmmmm....perhaps they just ran out?

https://partssearch.mercedes-benz-classic.com/parts/A1163261381?tt=automatic
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 13 January 2023, 08:26 PM
Quote from: rumb on 12 January 2023, 09:51 AMhmmmm....perhaps they just ran out?

https://partssearch.mercedes-benz-classic.com/parts/A1163261381?tt=automatic

Classic Center also says NLA. Damn.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 21 January 2023, 09:27 PM
Unfortunately when I removed the warm up regulator (which was full of some kind of particles and fuel varnish), one of the threads stripped, taking a bit of the Aluminium with it. So, I have purchased a Time Sert thread repair kit and will repair both threads just in case the other is wrecked - and to ensure even expansion when the motor heats up. I have received a rebuilt warm up regulator and obtained new fittings from K-jet.biz to get it reinstalled and working correctly.


I also removed the front brakes to be sent for rebuilding and the rear callipers are rebuilt, coated with high temperature urethane paint and ready for reinstallation (pictures coming soon). I found the brake lining sensor wiring insulation to be completely disintegrated so I have removed that so I can build or obtain replacements.
Pro tip: undo the two bolts on the steering knuckle and swing the knuckle out of the way to get better access to the other bolts which hold the calliper in place. As one of the callipers was seized and I struggled to remove the pad retaining pins, I just loosened the four bolts holding the calliper together so I could get it off the disc, which is also going to be replaced (lots of wear and heavy corrosion on the edge. New ATE parts on hand, OE parts discontinued from the looks of things.

The fuel tank has also been cleaned, stripped, coated internally and repainted. Further parts have been removed for Zinc plating and passivation

I am just waiting on the vacuum hose connecting part and fuel level sender from MB Classic (will post pictures and part numbers when they arrive) also some fuel hose to connect the breather and return lines to the tank and charcoal/activated Carbon canister.

Getting very close now...

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 24 January 2023, 05:49 PM
NOS rear sway bar bushings

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125548854962?hash=item1d3b4b7eb2:g:P4cAAOSwPAdjPlGx&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoJ%2FQ7xqqIoe%2B%2F170KZNlGpZ4VYv%2FnFVi8Lxe22BOaBwYv2SXs%2BmQAEYYThYf6qOdXv9a21a0SDid0CMTrav5d0w7gLBpLGwTsX583u4DtJY5BTcqC%2FPmFOUJuAsKFnMIJZ7V9CcdgdnAdX0oHNOzK%2BahnzeFxsey6OKXlFy8UjUdvAkEvtDN3tSncq74KVeq7rCrcL2kUiGifXdUm4YmNt0%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5SOud-8YQ
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 26 January 2023, 06:08 PM
Quote from: rumb on 24 January 2023, 05:49 PMNOS rear sway bar bushings

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125548854962?hash=item1d3b4b7eb2:g:P4cAAOSwPAdjPlGx&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoJ%2FQ7xqqIoe%2B%2F170KZNlGpZ4VYv%2FnFVi8Lxe22BOaBwYv2SXs%2BmQAEYYThYf6qOdXv9a21a0SDid0CMTrav5d0w7gLBpLGwTsX583u4DtJY5BTcqC%2FPmFOUJuAsKFnMIJZ7V9CcdgdnAdX0oHNOzK%2BahnzeFxsey6OKXlFy8UjUdvAkEvtDN3tSncq74KVeq7rCrcL2kUiGifXdUm4YmNt0%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5SOud-8YQ

That's around $400 AUD once delivered. A bit too expensive - I don't really buy into scalping.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 26 January 2023, 06:18 PM
Yesterday was a public holiday here. As I don't participate in that day, I decided to work on the 6.9.

Unfortunately it was ~35*C so the work was strenuous (see picture) and many of the parts refused to budge, caked on with mud, rust and general old age. Far less work than expected was completed.

I did however manage to get the driver's side rear brakes installed - new parking brake shoes were extraordinarily tedious to install.
The brake discs were also really hard to remove as they were completely rusted to the wheel hub.

The rear left brake disc is stuck due to a jammed parking brake shoe - i'll have to disconnect the cable or use a puller on the brake disc.

In addition, I received a huge box of parts from MB Classic Center in the USA after it was stuck with FedEx for the best part of a week. New water pump, loads of plastic and rubber pieces, some bolts, a master cylinder, the correct clear hose for the headlight and windscreen washer system, loads of vacuum tubing and various other items.

I'm away for a few days so i'll try get some work in on Monday night, replacing some of the vacuum hoses and other pieces which connect to the fuel / injection system.

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: BCK1963 on 27 January 2023, 01:15 AM
As far as I have been able to track there are two of these sway bar bushings left at a german MB dealer. He refuses to sell as this dealer is part of the MB classic line and he says he needs the bushings for an upcoming restoration.
However, he says as well that he will have them reproduced to OEM standards. It may take a couple of weeks and the price indication is appr. 50 € plus tax. But don't nail me on details.

I will keep you posted on how things will proceed.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: revilla on 27 January 2023, 01:27 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 26 January 2023, 06:08 PMThat's around $400 AUD once delivered. A bit too expensive - I don't really buy into scalping.


I think you probably meant to write:
"Thank you very much Rumb. I appreciate the time you spent to find this option for me. However, it might be a bit too expensive for me being based in Australia. But thanks anyway. This forum and its members are of great help. They lend a hand every time out of good will. Nice to be part of it.

Gratitude is a fundamental principle of this forum.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: McNuggets on 27 January 2023, 03:24 PM
ECS Tuning seems to have them for about $40 each. I was going to buy these in November but their website was acting up and I was worried about missing out so I bought from MBOEMparts for $60/ea. Can't remember if I bought fronts yet or not...

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-mercedes-benz-parts/mounttorsio/1163261381/
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 27 January 2023, 04:00 PM
I tried ordering some 2 weeks ago from a dealer and they said nla.


Ecs and most parts sites have no idea if a part is nla until after you order.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Randys01 on 28 January 2023, 10:35 PM
gee that w pump looks the goods.I can feel money talking here!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: W116120 on 29 January 2023, 09:38 AM
Congrats man!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 30 January 2023, 05:59 AM
Quote from: revilla on 27 January 2023, 01:27 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 26 January 2023, 06:08 PMThat's around $400 AUD once delivered. A bit too expensive - I don't really buy into scalping.


I think you probably meant to write:
"Thank you very much Rumb. I appreciate the time you spent to find this option for me. However, it might be a bit too expensive for me being based in Australia. But thanks anyway. This forum and its members are of great help. They lend a hand every time out of good will. Nice to be part of it.

Gratitude is a fundamental principle of this forum.

Actually, I wouldn't write such a message. I believe in honesty and directness as the basis of interaction with all people, even if that comes across as blunt - or even so much rude, at times - although being rude isn't my intention, this has been a useful trait that has taken me far in life and I expect the same from other people.  It cuts out a lot of time wasted, and gets to the important details and meaningful interactions faster. In this instance, I could have stated that I already had looked at this listing via a part number search and been recommended this exact listing on eBay several times which would have given context to the other part of my comment. I'll work on that in the future, as I realise there is only so much that can be communicated in plain English text without the nuance of vocal delivery.

It isn't that I don't appreciate the assistance - which should be clear by the nature of my posting here, as I think I am at least making a small, but useful contribution to the vast wealth of information that is on this site as a way of "returning the favour". I believe in displaying gratitude by action, not just by words. Anyhow.

50 Euro is a reasonable amount for a quality part of this kind, Bernd. If I could get some originals i'd also take a mould and convert this to a Solidworks drawing - a request for a technical drawing from MB Classic was futile.

Any tips for removing a jammed rear brake disc without buying a 3 arm puller tool? It is free of the hub, but basically jammed onto the parking brake shoes. I'm going to be working on the car again tomorrow and really want to get the whole rear braking system re-assembled so I can start on the installation of front brakes later this week. Oh, and a nice coating of Copper-based anti seize on all the steel to steel contact parts which are likely to stick themselves together over the next decade (or 3 months).
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 04 February 2023, 10:04 PM
A little bit of time spent waiting for parts and a weekend away in the country delayed some work on the car.

I wish Mercedes published a description of their bolts other than "bolt" (e.g. M12 x 40 mm x 1.0 - 10.9 Zinc) so I didn't have to remove something from the car, go to the bolt shop then reinstall some time later, or wait for an order from Würth or worse, Mercedes.

So, i'm going to start a catalogue of the bolts, their locations and size (and indicative torque value with a technical reasoning) - coupled with a cross reference to MB part numbers, which in many cases are no longer available. Such was the case for the differential mount to chassis bolts, only two were available at the time of purchase. They come pre-coated with a thread locking compound and should not be re-used after removal, especially when used on drivetrain, suspension or braking system mountings. The bolts from the differential to the mount were a whopping $29 USD/piece from Mercedes Classic. Around 3x what a typical high tensile (10.9/ ASTM A490,A354, Grade 8D) bolt might cost.

So, I have re-assembled the fuel system, the refurbished rear suspension valve, installed a new differential mount and serviced the differential. I carefully cleaned out the brake fluid reservoir which had a lot of black disintegrated rubber particles in it. It is very important that these particles don't end up in the callipers or master cylinder. They are likely from the seals to the master cylinder and also the seal inside the cap. I have a replacement master cylinder to install once the system is flushed out with plenty of ATE SL brake fluid.

The process to clean the tank was as follows:

Emptied old brake fluid (yuck), flushed with small quantities of absolute ethanol until blue dye from fluid was removed, used a degreaser compound (Decon 90) on the inside and out with warm water (fill, shake and drain a few times).
Then I carefully used acetone on a long cotton bud to directly remove the black stuff which was accessible. Following that, I filled and rinsed several times with deionised, ultrafiltered water, several times with the absolute ethanol, then blew out the housing with compressed air, left to air dry. I'll check the float switches with a multimeter and replace the lid which is still available from ATE (PN: 0004315433 - 64), as are the two grommets (PN: 0004310950).

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 05 February 2023, 09:41 AM
There is a DIN survey that list all hardware.

I have a digital copy if anyone is interested.


https://www.authenticclassics.com/Illustrated-DIN-Survey-DIN-Part-Number-Conversion-p/auth-006028.htm



MB part numbering explained

https://www.benzworld.org/threads/mercedes-benz-part-numbering-system.1825929/
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 09 February 2023, 06:34 AM
Quote from: rumb on 05 February 2023, 09:41 AMThere is a DIN survey that list all hardware.

I have a digital copy if anyone is interested.


https://www.authenticclassics.com/Illustrated-DIN-Survey-DIN-Part-Number-Conversion-p/auth-006028.htm



MB part numbering explained

https://www.benzworld.org/threads/mercedes-benz-part-numbering-system.1825929/


Thanks Rumb - very helpful. The bolts in some cases are extremely expensive.

"steering knuckle screws A1269902501: $123.75 incl GST each, Germany. A1239900701: $105.00 incl GST, Nil stock Germany."
That's from a local MB dealer. Unsure how bolts could be that expensive... they are not surgical screws or aerospace grade parts.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 09 February 2023, 09:10 AM
A1269902501 $24 here from MB

A1239900701 $35 here.

Need help procuring?
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 15 February 2023, 04:28 AM
Quote from: rumb on 09 February 2023, 09:10 AMA1269902501 $24 here from MB

A1239900701 $35 here.

Need help procuring?

Hi Rumb,

I have sourced the parts needed from MB Classic Center. It just takes a little longer to back-and-forth communicate with the USA unless I contact them very early in the day (before 8am).
Thank you for your offer.

Given it is quite difficult to remove the front brake discs without affecting the wheel bearings (I needed to use blowtorch), I decided to replace the bearings at the same time and give the hubs a clean, remove the rust and re-paint with a satin finish black as per original. I left the old bearing races in to protect that surface while I was cleaning. As with many jobs on the car, one small task turns into a lot bigger task. I'd rather do it properly than have to dismantle the whole thing again - given I don't have a hydraulic press and it was already a lot of work to get the hub and brake discs apart - also requiring the assistance of a local mechanic who had suitable tools to push/pull the bearing races.







Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 15 February 2023, 11:33 AM
Pro tip for races.  You can use a punch to drive them out from the back and then use the old race to drive in the new one.  Mostly this is for shade tree techs like myself ;D
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 15 February 2023, 12:37 PM
Front bearing play is .001-.002mm.  A dial indicator on a magnetic stand works great to do this. Both are inexpensive to procure (at least in USA)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 15 February 2023, 10:35 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 15 February 2023, 11:33 AMPro tip for races.  You can use a punch to drive them out from the back and then use the old race to drive in the new one.  Mostly this is for shade tree techs like myself ;D
I gave that a try. Lots of noise, not much movement. Bigger hammer did not make them budge at al;l.

I have the dial gauge ready to go, just need to find the magnetic stand. 2k paint and etch primer arrived today so i'm going to get the hubs painted and baked. Happy days :D
 
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 25 February 2023, 05:17 AM
After some time occupied with work and other tasks, I have stripped and repainted the front wheel hub and guard.

The paint type was a 1k etch primer in black followed by a 2k upol satin black can and baking for 24 hours at 50*C. The results are impressive. I could definitely do a better job but I couldn't quite see the amount of paint I was applying in one or two areas and didn't really make much effort to improve the lighting in my "paint booth" (chemical fume cupboard with busted fluoro lamp).

New grease-packed bearings will be pressed into the hubs on Monday and i'll get these parts back on the car with fresh discs. Everything else is assembled after quite a bit of frustration and delays. Fortunately it has not cost much more money, just a load more time.



Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 25 February 2023, 10:20 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 26 January 2023, 06:18 PMYesterday was a public holiday here. As I don't participate in that day, I decided to work on the 6.9.

Unfortunately it was ~35*C so the work was strenuous (see picture) and many of the parts refused to budge, caked on with mud, rust and general old age. Far less work than expected was completed.

I did however manage to get the driver's side rear brakes installed - new parking brake shoes were extraordinarily tedious to install.
The brake discs were also really hard to remove as they were completely rusted to the wheel hub.

The rear left brake disc is stuck due to a jammed parking brake shoe - i'll have to disconnect the cable or use a puller on the brake disc.

In addition, I received a huge box of parts from MB Classic Center in the USA after it was stuck with FedEx for the best part of a week. New water pump, loads of plastic and rubber pieces, some bolts, a master cylinder, the correct clear hose for the headlight and windscreen washer system, loads of vacuum tubing and various other items.

I'm away for a few days so i'll try get some work in on Monday night, replacing some of the vacuum hoses and other pieces which connect to the fuel / injection system.



Hi Andrewk, did you see the pm I sent you?
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 25 February 2023, 11:24 PM
Hi Jan,

I just checked and have responded to your message.

For all others interested, I bought a water pump and housing (assembled) from MB Classic Center. Cost was $896.75 USD and I had send a pump to Classic Center as a core ahead of time, so the core charge was not added to the invoice.

The part number is: 100-200-32-01-88
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 03 March 2023, 10:09 PM
I finally had the bearings pressed in and packed with the correct MB grease by a local shop - ready to go back on the car this weekend.

Work on the car has slowed a little due to (real) work commitments but progress is still being made.

I am curious to know if anyone had some front suspension blocks available for purchase - and the zip cases for the front and rear? I have the rear blocks but the front ones are long gone, along with the cases.



Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 04 March 2023, 08:53 AM
I sell the cables for the blocks. $100 a pair. Pm me.

Ive never heard of a case or bag for the blocks. Thats sounds like a good idea as otherwise ypu have to just set them in the trunk wheel well.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 04 March 2023, 11:39 AM
I've seen those bags for the blocks but they are even rarer to find than the blocks themselves.

Not really sure why you would even need them in a bag to be honest.   Perhaps just another typical example of German overengineering ;D
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 04 March 2023, 12:34 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 04 March 2023, 11:39 AMI've seen those bags for the blocks but they are even rarer to find than the blocks themselves.

Not really sure why you would even need them in a bag to be honest.   Perhaps just another typical example of German overengineering ;D
Yeah, I've seen them too.  But it's not clear to me how well they could possibly work.  The blocks don't nest neatly in the side well anyway.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: nathan on 06 March 2023, 03:49 PM
There are no factory cases for the emergency blocks, the ones you have seen in the YouTube video were made by myfather in law who was a furniture trimmer.  I just wanted something to store the blocks in so they looked a bit tidier, and asked my father in law to make something up.  The cables was a ridiculous inflationary tale.  I bought mine from MB for (I kid you not) $15 each about 2005.  1-2 years later when I went to get a set for dad, they were about $250 each for some wild reason.  I have no idea what they are worth now but imagine they aren't cheap.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 15 March 2023, 12:34 AM
Quote from: nathan on 06 March 2023, 03:49 PMThere are no factory cases for the emergency blocks, the ones you have seen in the YouTube video were made by myfather in law who was a furniture trimmer.  I just wanted something to store the blocks in so they looked a bit tidier, and asked my father in law to make something up.  The cables was a ridiculous inflationary tale.  I bought mine from MB for (I kid you not) $15 each about 2005.  1-2 years later when I went to get a set for dad, they were about $250 each for some wild reason.  I have no idea what they are worth now but imagine they aren't cheap.
Good to know. I might have the leather trimmer who is going to rebuild the seats make me a case for the rear blocks. I don't have the front blocks but will need a set for emergencies.

It seems I am much deeper into this car than expected - both time and money wise. However, I am not concerned as the car will be in very good shape following the myriad of parts and work completed. I have found a shop to do the registration work and other items required to get the car running properly (CMR Automotive in Marrickville NSW, around the corner from my workshop) as I am out of time and really need to concentrate on some other projects (i.e. my business and day to day activities) for a while.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: nathan on 15 March 2023, 02:36 AM
Andrew, my father in law actually made one extra bag for the rear I still have, ill look for it and put it aside for you as a gift. 
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 17 May 2023, 12:51 AM
Quote from: nathan on 15 March 2023, 02:36 AMAndrew, my father in law actually made one extra bag for the rear I still have, ill look for it and put it aside for you as a gift. 

Thank you very much Nathan!

to everyone; thank you for your advice and assistance with this (substantial) undertaking. I would not have been able to complete this work without the vast amount of information provided by the community members in this forum.

I now have 6.9 #5532 running and almost fully operational. A few leaks, a lot of smoke and oil burned off the exhaust, a fair bit of fuel consumed - as well as a load of parts.

Here's a short video of the glorious engine sound, all gauges working.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zu0iNamrCU

I am missing the pins from the brake calipers and a few other things misplaced during rebuild. So, not quite ready for the road, but very near to its first adventure with very happy owner/custodian on board.




Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Gpapaniko on 17 May 2023, 07:14 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 17 May 2023, 12:51 AM
Quote from: nathan on 15 March 2023, 02:36 AMAndrew, my father in law actually made one extra bag for the rear I still have, ill look for it and put it aside for you as a gift. 

Thank you very much Nathan!

to everyone; thank you for your advice and assistance with this (substantial) undertaking. I would not have been able to complete this work without the vast amount of information provided by the community members in this forum.

I now have 6.9 #5532 running and almost fully operational. A few leaks, a lot of smoke and oil burned off the exhaust, a fair bit of fuel consumed - as well as a load of parts.

Here's a short video of the glorious engine sound, all gauges working.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zu0iNamrCU

I am missing the pins from the brake calipers and a few other things misplaced during rebuild. So, not quite ready for the road, but very near to its first adventure with very happy owner/custodian on board.






Congratulations Andrew
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 12 June 2023, 07:32 PM
A friend and I took the 6.9 for its first drive yesterday. Thanks to Nathan for helping me with the front brake pad pins which I couldn't find elsewhere in a reasonable timeframe. The engine is running well, transmission smooth, steering perfect. Tyres... not so much. It is now in our workshop, ready for the rebuild of rear subframe and replacement of the suspension struts, hoses, mounts and sphere which have been rebuilt by Martin Werminghausen using cores from Nathan and others.


Next step however is to give it a really good wash, degrease underneath, replace the tyres then get it registered.

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 17 June 2023, 08:40 PM
First wash, the paint has come up nicely - some scratching/crazing on the boot lid but i'm quite surprised that there's no significant damage or problems. Only small surface rust spots.

I have taken the car for a few more short drives to see if I can find any bugs or items to fix, but the car is actually running well.

I have changed the oil and filter, there was quite a lot of sludge in the sump, filter and bottom of the tank. Will keep an eye on the oil and change it again after some time.

I also had to replace the front axle valve as it was visibly leaking through the face. It looks like it was rebuilt at some point in the past and there is a lot of lateral play. Car would lose hydraulic pressure overnight. Wow, what a mess that made - the oil was really foamed up and even after depressurising the system carefully, a gigantic amount of foamy brown oil leaked out of the frontmost fitting. I topped up the system, started the car and it quickly came back up to height.

A small tip for the replacement of the front valve; there is a small piece of L shaped bent hydraulic line for the "Z" port which goes to a T piece, mounted with the fitting facing towards the ground, it is helpful to remove that section in order to get a better undoing angle for a flare wrench. I do not think I would be able to remove the valve without the removal of that piece. That section is replaced once the  "R" line is reinstalled. Max 11 Nm using a torque wrench and crow's foot attachment (which would be 10 Nm if you could measure the torque without an offset). I also cleaned the fitting threads so that I could install the lines by hand, using drops of hydraulic oil to lubricate the threads on the way in. That way it is possible to avoid stripping the thread (as I did on the first attempt on the rear valve).



Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 18 June 2023, 08:11 AM
My theory is foam in hydro oil is escaped nitrogen from blown spheres.

Paint on your car looks good.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 19 June 2023, 10:18 AM
Quote from: rumb on 18 June 2023, 08:11 AMMy theory is foam in hydro oil is escaped nitrogen from blown spheres.

Paint on your car looks good.

That's a pretty solid theory, Nitrogen can definitely dissolve in oil at high pressure. I'm going to replace the rear spheres as they are quite old, despite the ride being relatively smooth - at least it was during the short drives I was able to do. I have not been able to properly stretch the legs as the car is not registered.

I also will replace the hydraulic hoses and return lines along with the struts and rear mounts at the same time. The rear subframe bushings also need to be replaced. This is a rather large job but I needed to get the car registered first so I can make a proper list of things to address and carry out those repairs in an ordered fashion. I might even have the subframe blasted and powder coated while I am overseas, along with sending all the fuel injector retaining brackets and bolts to the Zinc plating shop.

On another note, the car failed its registration inspection today due to oil leaks from the hydraulic suspension valves. I'm hoping this is just residual oil from the change of the valves, but could be something else, such as fittings that need to be tightened. I have asked the shop (CMR Automotive for anyone in Sydney, Australia - they have a lot of experience with classic Mercedes vehicles - I counted 6x pre 1980 vehicles in there today) to check if there is new oil leaking and fix it, as necessary. Fortunately, nothing else came up at the time - all of the work I have done "looks good". Most importantly; there are no fuel, transmission or engine oil leaks. That's a first as i'm used to working on BMWs which are *somewhat* prone to oil leaks.

And yes, the paint looks pretty good now that it has been given a wash. It will need a polish and some small repairs but i'm pleasantly surprised at the condition of the car now that it is relatively clean. It could be a lot worse.

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 25 June 2023, 05:47 PM
Well, I found the leaks. The rear valve which I had rebuilt was leaking, probably due to the linkage undoing itself during the first drive. There is a warning in the service manual about this problem, and suggests not to allow the lever on the valve to move past 45 degrees from the maximum travel point while the system is pressurised.

I replaced the valve, cleaned up the mess and was able to get the car registered.

In addition, I added a UV-reactive dye into the hydraulic oil so I could find leaks after the new valve was installed. Leaks were found in a few places, including one or two of the fittings on the front valve, the suction line on the HPF pump, from the valve assembly on the HPF oil tank and also out of the front struts.

The UV dye I used was OilGlo Ultra from Spectroline. I bought a kit which contained the dye, a UV torch and dye neutraliser. Very handy diagnostic tool.

Anyway, I have been able to take the car on a ~350 km drive (Sydney to Newcastle and back) and it behaved pretty well. There is some vibration around 80-90 km/h and above 120 km/h, and the steering is very slightly to the left. I hope both issues can be corrected with a wheel alignment and steering adjustment.

Next jobs; replace rear subframe bushings on a blasted and powder coated subframe, install rebuilt rear struts, new mounts mounts and hoses.
Then; send fuel distributor for rebuild as the dosing of fuel for some cylinders is a bit off causing a "lumpy" condition in running.
Will also send all the injector retaining brackets and hardware for Zinc plating, replace injectors with new Bosch parts, replace seals at same time.
Also looking for some decent front struts and hoses which I can send for rebuild. If anyone in the USA has some cores available for sale, it would save me the international shipping to the USA.

Until later...


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 20 September 2023, 08:16 AM
After some time spent overseas and a short period of enjoyment, I decided to continue with the work on the car, starting at the cooling and fuel system at the engine. 

This evening I found a piece of Aluminium missing from the intake manifold to thermostat housing coolant fitting. Unsure what to do. This job has instantly become a lot more complex.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 20 September 2023, 08:55 AM
The connection between the manifold and thermostat housing is a short rubber hose secured with 2x hose clamps.  Not sure what you mean by missing aluminium?
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jan S on 20 September 2023, 12:21 PM
I see the big "crack" ... i.e. the missing piece of aluminium.

Does it go all the way to the flange, i.e. the rubber hose with the clamp will not seal properly?

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 20 September 2023, 01:57 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 20 September 2023, 12:21 PMI see the big "crack" ... i.e. the missing piece of aluminium.

Does it go all the way to the flange, i.e. the rubber hose with the clamp will not seal properly?



Ah yes I see it now.  That's a tough one.  You can try and epoxy weld (like JB Weld) a piece cut to size to fit into the gap.  Risk is if that piece let's go then it'll end up in the water passages somewhere which would suck.

Other option is maybe a thin sleeve over top?  Failing that you'll have to replace the whole manifold which is a huge and costly job.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 20 September 2023, 03:48 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 20 September 2023, 01:57 PM
Quote from: Jan S on 20 September 2023, 12:21 PMI see the big "crack" ... i.e. the missing piece of aluminium.

Does it go all the way to the flange, i.e. the rubber hose with the clamp will not seal properly?



Ah yes I see it now.  That's a tough one.  You can try and epoxy weld (like JB Weld) a piece cut to size to fit into the gap.  Risk is if that piece let's go then it'll end up in the water passages somewhere which would suck.

Other option is maybe a thin sleeve over top?  Failing that you'll have to replace the whole manifold which is a huge and costly job.

I was thinking of installing a thin Copper sleeve which could then be attached firmly with JB Weld or similar . Intake manifold is NLA from Benz and I don't have a spare. Have asked after a whole engine as a rather excessive spares kit. PN is A1001404401

It looks like the manifold simply unbolts and can be resealed. I already have the fuel distributor and injectors out... installing a sleeve is not a long term safe solution as it really depends on a very clean joint and heat cycling will eventually cause it to fail.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 20 September 2023, 06:28 PM
This outfit in Canada has a new old stock one listed, however the part number he has listed does not correspond with the EPC.  Hmmm.  Maybe email him and have him double check the number cast into the part itself:

http://oldbenz.co/manifod-intake-1001402701-450sel-69

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 21 September 2023, 07:41 AM
Quote from: daantjie on 20 September 2023, 06:28 PMThis outfit in Canada has a new old stock one listed, however the part number he has listed does not correspond with the EPC.  Hmmm.  Maybe email him and have him double check the number cast into the part itself:

http://oldbenz.co/manifod-intake-1001402701-450sel-69


Thanks Daantjie, have contacted them to buy it. Part number is different to the EPC and is of course NLA from Benz.

Have asked most other people I know locally if they have a spare or a motor collecting dust. Also working on finding a long term solution to address this- JB Weld and Copper sleeve might be great for a while but the risk / expense of overheating is not in my appetite.

Either way, it can't go back together like I found it.

Thanks all for your help. Hopefully I can get this project back on track in the next week or so.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 07 October 2023, 07:52 PM
Well, I have sourced an intake manifold but absolutely struggling to get the existing one off.

I have disconnected the EGR pipe from both ends (32 mm wrench inside the intake plenum was a real pain!) - the right side of engine pipe connection was absolutely seized together and required a lot of persuasion with all manner of hammers and tools.

Does anyone have any tips for removing the intake manifold? It does not seem to clear the valley no matter the position of the EGR pipe and I have tried for hours and hours, to the point of tears and sweat dripping. I do not want to pull the motor out at this time.

I figure there must be a trick or secret manoeuvre, moon phase or chant I must sing ahead of time. I'm an atheist, maybe it requires

I am going to delete the EGR system and seal the exhaust and intake accordingly.

This car is definitely a "labour of love" but I know for sure that the work is worthwhile to get this car properly sorted.

In other news, I can confirm the front suspension mount repair service from Roland Merz is a good one. I sent them my mounts, they confirmed the part is original and suitable as a core and had two refurbished bushings ready to send very soon after my parts were received. Their staff are extremely friendly and they have a stock of W116 parts, genuine and Bosch items that may be of interest to other members here.

I also purchased another set of front mounts from Rumb and those will be on their way to Germany soon, so I have a spare set - in case I finish this 6.9 and find myself with another one. Also good to have spares of hard to find parts...





 
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: ramiro on 08 October 2023, 04:02 AM
Are all bolts out and none broke off ?
I had my intake 2 times off and when all bolts come out it shouldn't be a problem i don't remember it not fitting between the valley.
I also had an weird retrofitted EGR system that i removed , i cut the pipe just behind the Intake manifold and was able to pull the rest out the intake to the rear to the side and down so it cleared the transmission and firewall.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 08 October 2023, 07:55 PM
Quote from: ramiro on 08 October 2023, 04:02 AMAre all bolts out and none broke off ?
I had my intake 2 times off and when all bolts come out it shouldn't be a problem i don't remember it not fitting between the valley.
I also had an weird retrofitted EGR system that i removed , i cut the pipe just behind the Intake manifold and was able to pull the rest out the intake to the rear to the side and down so it cleared the transmission and firewall.

I had three stripped bolts but removed them with a special tool. The intake manifold is loose but does not seem to clear the valley. I am fairly sure it is the EGR pipe that is blocking the right side of the manifold, but unsure if it needs to be attached at the intake end to clear the valley - or disconnected (as I have it at the moment). I can cut the pipe, but unsure how to go about that without damaging the manifold.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: ramiro on 09 October 2023, 05:09 AM
I did use a similar tool like this to cut the pipe just where it comes out the intake, didn't damage anything :
https://www.amazon.se/-/en/Compressed-Pneumatic-Including-Adjustable-Bracket/dp/B01HEZY5KE .

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 17 October 2023, 01:45 AM
Well, I managed to cut the EGR pipe. The air saw was taking forever (would have been there for hours) so I just sheared it with a cold chisel and then stress fractured it by bending the exhaust end. What a task!

Unfortunately, the intake still won't lift off. It gets stuck at the back somewhere. I am going to give it one more try tonight.

In other news, front suspension struts have been rebuilt and should be ready to ship back with a rebuilt pump, new pressure hoses and the other bits I need to get the suspension completely sorted.

Unfortunately the cores I sourced had two different types different types of internal components, so I had to sacrifice yet another two cores' internals so they would be correct. At least I know for sure they are properly sorted now. Very expensive exercise to overhaul the suspension system properly.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: ramiro on 17 October 2023, 05:20 AM
I think the long part was cutting until the saw gets into the pipe then it went fast for me , but atleast you got the pipe out.
Did you remove the oiline from the intake and also the hard metal vacum line that goes to the transmission from the back of the intake ?

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 20 October 2023, 10:19 AM
I have defeated the final boss and have the intake off.

Have spent the evening cleaning the intake area ready for new gaskets, the replacement manifold and the deletion of the EGR system. The amount of junk inside the intake (Carbon build up) was astonishing. I could not clean the lower section myself - it will be properly cleaned and blasted.

The seals between upper and lower half were awfully brittle and will be replaced with new ($400 USD!!)

One thing I learned is that the gaskets (VRS kits and inlet gaskets) are NLA and the water pump gaskets which go on the block... also NLA. There isn't a replacement option for the intake to head gasket as it's an alloy/composite type) I'm going to make a 2D model and cut modern water/steam gasket material on a vinyl cutter (Klinger 4430 which does not require sealant and can be cut easily).

More to follow. The saga continues


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: ramiro on 20 October 2023, 11:17 AM
What was the final trick to get it off ?
You can get the intake gaskets and serveral others when you buy a headgasket kit at MB , when i bought both sets i got 4 valve cover gaskets and 4 intake manifold gaskets and serveral others.
Part numbers are :
A 100 010 11 21 left side head gasket kit .
A 100 010 12 21 right side head gasket kit .
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 20 October 2023, 12:00 PM
Nice work 8)   yup those donut seals are knee buckling expensive and of course bespoke for the 6.9 which does not help  :o

Make sure you surgically clean the drain hole at the back of the block.  You'll never have as good an opportunity to do this than now.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 23 October 2023, 08:09 PM
Quote from: ramiro on 20 October 2023, 11:17 AMWhat was the final trick to get it off ?
You can get the intake gaskets and serveral others when you buy a headgasket kit at MB , when i bought both sets i got 4 valve cover gaskets and 4 intake manifold gaskets and serveral others.
Part numbers are :
A 100 010 11 21 left side head gasket kit .
A 100 010 12 21 right side head gasket kit .

The secret ingredient was... yelling (and the correct angle of removal towards the rear of the motor). Plus there was a pesky oil line attached to a bracket on the intake. Helps to undo everything first.

I now have all the pieces back from electroplating for reassembly of the intake and fuel system. Now I am just waiting for the intake from my mechanic friend - he is providing the donut seals, cleaning the lower half of the intake I supplied and will check the sealed intake with vacuum and smoke prior to reinstallation.

I still could not find the head gasket kits with those part numbers. I'll ask Classic Center about it. How much should I expect to pay for each kit?

I am curious about the sealing of the intake to the heads. I take it that I only need to use Reinzosil on the coolant pathways, but if there is a trick to ensuring that none goes into the coolant pathway, i'm all ears. First time doing such a job.

Does anyone have a source for EGR sealing plates? I am struggling to find a water jet or milling shop who can cut one from steel. I could just use a pipe fitting to seal the rear facing port on the EGR valve but prefer to do the job properly so there isn't lots of heat being generated adjacent to the brand new washer bottle I sourced (it is very hard to find a right hand drive 6.9 washer bottle)

The drain hole at the back of the block is now extremely clean. I have a very large puddle of crud on the workshop floor to prove it :P


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: ramiro on 24 October 2023, 07:10 AM
Yes you can only get the the Headgasket kit at the dealer , for me the Price is 315 Eur for 1 Side with 19% Vat , so not cheap if you only need the intake gaskets.
Here you can see what is included with 1000101121 : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254399840952 .
As far as i remember the intake gasket has some kind of metal inside so i am not sure if you can just cut it from paper.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 24 October 2023, 09:50 AM
@$220

https://www.mboemparts.com/oem-parts/mercedes-benz-gasket-set-cylinder-head-1000101121

Classic center price should be similar.

I love the shiny plated parts!!!

blank off plates - http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/355250-sale-egr-delete-block-off-plate-kit.html
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 25 October 2023, 03:30 AM
Quote from: ramiro on 24 October 2023, 07:10 AMYes you can only get the the Headgasket kit at the dealer , for me the Price is 315 Eur for 1 Side with 19% Vat , so not cheap if you only need the intake gaskets.
Here you can see what is included with 1000101121 : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254399840952 .
As far as i remember the intake gasket has some kind of metal inside so i am not sure if you can just cut it from paper.

I checked the Mercedes Benz parts site and the part did not appear, but I now see it on several other sites. Have now asked Classic Center as well, will hopefully hear back from them tomorrow. The dealer here is not a good option; 2-4x the price of Classic Center. Although the local parts interpreter guy is really helpful, the markup is extra painful and I only use MB dealer parts in an emergency where I can get them overnight from Melbourne, or not ship via air.

The intake gaskets have a composite construction; expanding rubber and thin metal inside. Similar to some types of head gaskets.

I am looking to have the water pump gaskets cut on a vinyl cutter from Klingersil 4430 material as the original gaskets for the water pump housing to block are not available. I'll make a 2D drawing in Solidworks and see how they work on a signwriting vinyl cutter (Roland DG etc). This material is superior to paper gaskets and should not require a gasket sealant applied, facilitating easy removal and better sealing. Specifications far exceed what is required and should give good protection to the flanges. If I find some "spare time" I can also test the gasket under pressure and heat, using an existing flange of same dimensions.

https://www.klinger.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/KLINGERSIL-C-4430-Data-Sheet.pdf
 
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 27 October 2023, 01:48 AM
I'm curious:

Does anyone have some insight into the EPC page relevant to the HPF pump? I need to figure out which screws go into it. I have a load of stuff back from plating and it seems the screws I have for installing the pump are two different lengths (3x shorter, 1x longer), or I have lost a screw somewhere.

I have looked on countless pages of the catalogue and have not found the pump to engine head diagram. A search for the pump's part number did not work either.
https://nemigaparts.com/cat_spares/epc/mercedes/1/fg/116036/040/32/001/

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: raueda1 on 27 October 2023, 09:00 AM
Quote from: andrewk on 23 October 2023, 08:09 PM
Quote from: ramiro on 20 October 2023, 11:17 AMWhat was the final trick to get it off ?
You can get the intake gaskets and serveral others when you buy a headgasket kit at MB , when i bought both sets i got 4 valve cover gaskets and 4 intake manifold gaskets and serveral others.
Part numbers are :
A 100 010 11 21 left side head gasket kit .
A 100 010 12 21 right side head gasket kit .

The secret ingredient was... yelling (and the correct angle of removal towards the rear of the motor). Plus there was a pesky oil line attached to a bracket on the intake. Helps to undo everything first.

I now have all the pieces back from electroplating for reassembly of the intake and fuel system. Now I am just waiting for the intake from my mechanic friend - he is providing the donut seals, cleaning the lower half of the intake I supplied and will check the sealed intake with vacuum and smoke prior to reinstallation.

I still could not find the head gasket kits with those part numbers. I'll ask Classic Center about it. How much should I expect to pay for each kit?

I am curious about the sealing of the intake to the heads. I take it that I only need to use Reinzosil on the coolant pathways, but if there is a trick to ensuring that none goes into the coolant pathway, i'm all ears. First time doing such a job.

Does anyone have a source for EGR sealing plates? I am struggling to find a water jet or milling shop who can cut one from steel. I could just use a pipe fitting to seal the rear facing port on the EGR valve but prefer to do the job properly so there isn't lots of heat being generated adjacent to the brand new washer bottle I sourced (it is very hard to find a right hand drive 6.9 washer bottle)

The drain hole at the back of the block is now extremely clean. I have a very large puddle of crud on the workshop floor to prove it :P

Beautiful shiny parts!  I'm envious at the fun you'll have putting it all back together.  Also great tom have a working block drain.  Mine had a mouse nest down there.  Looks like lots of progress.  Good luck and cheers,
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 27 October 2023, 09:32 AM
There are 2x short hex head cap bolts that hold the top of the pump to the body and 4x long ones that bolt the pump to the motor.

However if the 2x short bolts have been removed you will need to reseal the cover with a new o ring underneath and torqued to spec.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 28 October 2023, 12:16 AM
Quote from: daantjie on 27 October 2023, 09:32 AMThere are 2x short hex head cap bolts that hold the top of the pump to the body and 4x long ones that bolt the pump to the motor.

However if the 2x short bolts have been removed you will need to reseal the cover with a new o ring underneath and torqued to spec.

The pump is assembled (rebuilt by Martin Werminghausen), I just need to know the page for EPC to see the part numbers for the mounting to head. I have three long bolts and a single longer bolt which were grouped together but not sure which hole the longer one goes in.

My pump core (1994 date code) had a crack in the housing.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: ramiro on 28 October 2023, 11:23 AM
I attached a screenshot from the EPC , interesting that you can buy directly from the classic center , in germany everything goes through official mercedes dealers but usually the prices are the same.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 28 October 2023, 01:03 PM
264    SCREW    003    N 000912 006046    -    $1.67
264    SCREW    001    N 000912 006070    -    $3.57

so there are 3 of one and one of the 4th. 

Sounds like the ones you have are correct.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 30 October 2023, 02:02 AM
Quote from: rumb on 28 October 2023, 01:03 PM264    SCREW    003    N 000912 006046    -    $1.67
264    SCREW    001    N 000912 006070    -    $3.57

so there are 3 of one and one of the 4th. 

Sounds like the ones you have are correct.
Excellent. Thank you rumb & ramiro!

Does anyone know where I might be able to find the heater hoses? Both of mine are looking quite sad, and the whole area was full of crud. They seem NLA from MB. One connects to the heater pipe which goes through the intake manifold and to the water pump, the other connects to the intake manifold at the rear right of the motor.

I have received my front struts from Martin Werminghausen, two good struts built from four cores which had mismatched internals. Good used ball joints and new cups also supplied. Very very nice indeed.

In addition, I have also received the refurbished front strut mounts from Roland Merz Ersatzteile in Germany. They also had the small rubber pieces for the rear strut top mount - mine had deteriorated and I figure it is best to replace them rather than let them degrade further.





Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 30 October 2023, 08:04 AM
Might find the hoses here

https://www.mercedespartz.com/page/1/?s=W116+hose&post_type=product
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 27 November 2023, 06:14 PM
Well, this whole set of work has blown out of proportion with the intake replacement.

The process to separate the lower ball joint from the control arm/wishbone has been gruelling. They have obviously been installed with an excessive amount of torque, causing the spindle of the ball joints (TRW brand with 90s date code) to be stuck in the hole. I now have pain in both of my arms from the hammering.

So far I have separated one of the joints but I had to dismember it and hammer, drill and yell at it for three hours (after i'd already spend hours trying with ball joint tools and conventional methods, breaking a brand new Kukko tool in the process, one Chinesium ball joint tool turned to glitter as it was tightened).

Today i'll attempt to get the other side apart and then press out the ball joints from the steering knuckle, get those blasted and powder coated and install fresh genuine joints. Hopefully I won't have to do this job again any time soon.

I had the fan blasted and painted with Cerakote which has turned out really well. Small wins. Hopefully i'll have the car back together in a fortnight or so; I really am keen to just drive it for a while without leaks, creaks and annoyances.


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 27 November 2023, 06:31 PM
Oi, yes indeed, I think we've all been stuck in suspension work purgatory before, it's usually ugly with lots of colourful language involved ;D always amazes me when I see shops do suspension work.  It's almost always a dude with a BFH (Big effing hammer) giving the part in question a couple of smart wacks and out she comes.  I guess it comes with experience as I have pretty much always had to resort to tons of heat and an inordinate amount of force on all the pullers and separators to get them to let go, usually with a loud bang and pop!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Jed on 27 November 2023, 10:41 PM
Oh Andrew,

I feel for you! That ball joint makes MY hands hurt!!

One trick that has not failed me yet is to use a pneumatic impact gun and hit the side of the connector (where you would hit it with the BFH).  Works every time but can make the end link less than pretty when your done. Of course so does the BFH, but this is a lot less work.

I spent Saturday taking down the entire front suspension on a W108 and the mercedes gods smiled on me.  Not a single rusted/broken or seized bolt.  Must have been a first for me.




Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: rumb on 28 November 2023, 10:03 AM
Fan looks much better.  Why did you choose Cerakote?  Looks like an interesting product.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 29 November 2023, 12:54 AM
Quote from: rumb on 28 November 2023, 10:03 AMFan looks much better.  Why did you choose Cerakote?  Looks like an interesting product.

Giving it a try as the finish is nice, high chemical resistance and very high heat resistance so it should look good for a while. Seemed to be a better option than powder coating in terms of durability and the guy who does it here in Sydney is a good guy. (Sydney Cerakote). He is also doing a lot of work for Porsche shops and the finish keeps the Magnesium alloy fans looking great, so I assume the Benz fan will be a similar situation.

A friend gave the left hand ball joint end link a mighty whack and it came out last night.

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 30 November 2023, 06:19 PM
I just received some bad news about the HPF regulator from Martin.

The housing, near fittings is cracked and will not be usable in the car.

Curious to know if anyone has one of these in good condition that I can send for rebuild? Also the valve block, I will probably obtain a spare of that too. Everything else in the system has been rebuilt now.


Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 02 January 2024, 12:01 AM
Happy New Year to all of you - and thank you again for all the assistance and support provided over the last year.

Well, I finally have the parts ready for reinstallation on the 6.9.

I had the replacement (and original lower section) intake manifold vapour blasted and cleaned it thoroughly. Unfortunately the intake manifold still had pinholes in the crankcase ventilation pathway, and the entire section was full of Carbon, glued together with oil vapour and blasting garnet from the initial repair. The welded section is also leaking, so I sealed it with high temperature clear RTV after exhaustive washing of the channel - it now passes water and solvent without leaking.

I also sealed the EGR intake port with a M26 x 1.5 plug, and used Permatex sealant on the threads. The upper to lower section rubber seals have also been replaced, and the throttle body cleaned, ready for assembly. The plug was sourced from Sparex and is good quality, works perfectly in that thread. I also sealed the inside with clear RTV to ensure it does not leak.

Tomorrow i'll assemble the intake manifold and get that ready for installation. I'll also start to re-assemble the suspension - although I still need to change the upper control arm bushings on the driver side - they are difficult to access.

One other thing, it seems that the upper control arm to chassis bolts were installed the other way round. Service manual suggests there was a change from the bolts going from front to back - to back to front, with the nuts on the front side of the strut tower chassis area. Can anyone confirm which is correct? As they have been installed with bolts from front to back (nuts to rear) in the past.

The only thing missing now is the water pump gaskets. I have ordered them from two different places so I have a template, but as yet - nobody has delivered. I also have some Klingersil 4430 gasket material in order to cut a better quality gasket once I have a drawing created.

What an involved process this has been - and far greater expenditure than planned. But I see no point in doing this half baked. I want to be able to enjoy the car regularly and reliably.

One last thing; it seems the air injection pump was removed at an earlier time. That means there were many sources of air/vacuum leaks not corrected. Now that I am removing the entire EGR system, i'll hopefully be able to improve reliability with this system no longer a source of issues.



Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: UTn_boy on 02 January 2024, 02:16 AM
YOU'LL Need to buy a chain tensioner for engines without secondary air injection, and you'll need to source a set of cylinder heads that don't utilize secondary air injection.   It's not plug and play!

Upper inner control arm bushings are mounted with the lock nut to the rear from production start to production end. 
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 02 January 2024, 06:00 PM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 02 January 2024, 02:16 AMYOU'LL Need to buy a chain tensioner for engines without secondary air injection, and you'll need to source a set of cylinder heads that don't utilize secondary air injection.   It's not plug and play!

Upper inner control arm bushings are mounted with the lock nut to the rear from production start to production end. 

Australia and USA use different components. I have been advised that it is possible to delete both the air injection system (which was already removed long ago) and the EGR system. Just changing the ignition timing to ensure it is adequately advanced. I have a Bosch engine analyser (ignition and fuel) so I can dial it in perfectly.

Do you have any literature which states that the heads are different? Air intake manifold is different from Euro models but I see no difference in the heads or chain tensioner parts.

Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 19 January 2024, 11:34 PM
Intake manifold is now completely rebuilt and resealed, ready for installation.

Also have the steering knuckles and components back on the car. I just need to figure out how to get to the right side hydraulic accumulator and then get all the lines connected.

This forum has been so helpful for all the little bits of information which are not obvious or in the service/technical literature. Thank you all for your help.

Now, I hope the whole system works without leaks. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: daantjie on 20 January 2024, 01:38 AM
Wow that intake is a show piece! Well done 8)
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: Nabstud on 30 January 2024, 12:51 AM
Who cares if it works, looks bloody fantastic!!!
Title: Re: Just secured a 450 SEL 6.9 after bit of a chase (years)
Post by: andrewk on 13 February 2024, 03:28 PM
Quote from: Nabstud on 30 January 2024, 12:51 AMWho cares if it works, looks bloody fantastic!!!

Thank you. Has been the definition of a "labour of love".

Intake is now reinstalled.