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Garage => Mechanicals => Topic started by: nathan on 30 December 2021, 07:29 AM

Title: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 30 December 2021, 07:29 AM
Hi guys,

the ignition barrel on my 6.9 started to stick lately, and having had a disaster on my 123 resto, I knew I would not leave this too long!

Unfortunately, barrels seem to be NLA, even after market.

There are some 123 barrels but from my experience, these should not fit, although they do look very similar to the 116 barrel?

Does anyone have any thoughts on sourcing a new barrel?

I made a brief video on barrel removal for anyone else having a go at removal and replacement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfi2j5jXTEM

regards
Nathan
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: ptashek on 30 December 2021, 08:27 AM
Are aftermarket ones available?

On the W124 you can buy a few aftermarket Febi barrels, and build one matching the original key. Might be possible with the W116 as well.

You cold try getting a new key, if the old one is worn. Or add some graphite or moly powder to lubricate the pins again.
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 30 December 2021, 06:04 PM
Cheers PT,

I think the only aftermarket 116 one is a URO which would be an absolute last resort (in fact Id rather never drive the car again).

Correct me if Im wrong PT, I thought the barrel wears, not the key so you cant really get another key cut? Ive also heard you can no longer get the correct blanks anymore. 

The used one I have is working well but Id rather a new one as you never know how long the other one will last.

Ill update if any findings

regards

Nathan
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: Pete49 on 30 December 2021, 06:23 PM
I sourced a new blank on ebay last year for my '75 450 SEL as the silca version wasn't available. I retired from locksmithing early 2000 but still keep up with it to a degree. The key number is M79S but the makers name is too worn to read so will see if I can find you more info. If the drivers door doesn't have a problem opening with the key it will be a worn ignition barrel wafers but a bugger to separate barrel from lock body.I did a w123 some years ago but forgot the method.
Pete
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 30 December 2021, 07:23 PM
Thank you Pete,

Am I right in saying that barrel cant really be repaired?  I didnt think it could once we got to this point?  I understand the Silcas are NLA now!
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: ptashek on 31 December 2021, 05:42 AM
Up until last year it was possible to order VIN matched original keys from the dealership. Might be worth checking if they are still available.

You just need to present proof of ownership.

If they key is worn and you're stuck with no master key to cut from, options become much more limited.

As for rebuilding the barrel, you just use the pins from the aftermarket part and fit matching ones  back into the original barrel. It may extend the lifetime of the existing key.
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: ptashek on 31 December 2021, 05:44 AM
Aftermarket blanks were made by Silca, and factory keys were made by Huf (also modern replacements).
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: rumb on 31 December 2021, 11:43 AM
Not sure why bashing URO ignition cylinder in particular.  Do you have hands on experience with this specific part or just internet research of general URO parts from years ago? It's well known that a few early parts - especially rubber - were not any good. The company pulled several of those parts from the market and they have been on top of insuring higher quality since then. They are a OEM supplier to Mercedes. As Mercedes ceases production of parts like this URO is stepping in to keep our cars on the road.

Anyone interested in getting a new URO lock and keys for free let me know, I can probably arrange for one in exchange for an honest review later. PN 1164620279
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 31 December 2021, 04:24 PM
PT, factory keys are not available any more.  I asked Tom (who recently retired!) at the CC and he said NLA.

Rumb, I would avoid any URO part until the consensus changes, as I've never had a trusted mechanic suggest URO supply quality products. 
Perhaps this will change like Japanese or Korean car maker reputations of the past, but for now, they have earned their 'reputation'.
Do you or a close friend work for URO rum, as how do you obtain free URO parts in exchange for reviews?
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: Pete49 on 31 December 2021, 05:20 PM
I would love to accept the offer of a free lock however I have no need for one yet so hopefully the offer will be taken up and an honest review is given to remove doubts.
I have never removed and examined a W116 ignition to see if they are repairable like the door and trunk/boot locks.Pete
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: UTn_boy on 31 December 2021, 07:54 PM
You're going to have to be more specific on which lock cylinder your car has.  The 6.9 came with three different versions over the years of production; the first two were the standard type that used a key with two sides cut. The first version was used from chassis number 000001 to 004157, part number 601-460-03-04.  The second version was used from chassis number 004158 through 005181, part number 116-462-07-79.  The third version was the high security version with inversely cut patterns on the sides of the key.  This 3rd version was used from chassis number 005182 until production stop in 1980.  Part number 116-460-06-04. 

The first two version lock cylinder key blanks and keys cut to the car's VIN are still available.  The third version with the high security key and lock cylinder is where the trouble starts.  You can still order keys cut to your car's VIN, but you can no longer get a lock cylinder.....either for the ignition or the doors.  URO is the only place making a replacement for the third version. 

Two years ago, my Father's 1979 450sel, which has the 3rd version high security locks on it, had the ignition lock cylinder fail on it.  It was either pay $100 for a new URO reproduction or $800 for a genuine Mercedes one I had found on ebay.  Both my father and myself agreed that the ebay seller didn't deserve to be given any patronage due to their excessive greed.  So we took a chance on the URO.  Once it came in, I had to take it apart to make my Father's original key fit.  (He didn't want the hassle of two keys to his car).  That all went well, and the URO lock cylinder worked very well.......for about a year.  Then it failed.  Again, we had to order another URO.  We literally had no other choice.  This time we got one where the seller offered a lifetime warranty on the cylinder.  So far so good, but the URO ones are very inferior to the originals.  They look cheap, feel cheap, and operate cheaply feeling.  But again, at this point we had no other alternative.  Sure, used is always a viable option, but that would be like buying a used light bulb.  It may last a day or two years.  Not worth the gamble/risk.   
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: robertd on 01 January 2022, 12:39 PM
Hi Nathan,

I have a few NOS barrels on the shelf.  or some used ones from previous parts cars.

give me a call at your convenience.

Happy New Year

Robert
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 01 January 2022, 05:18 PM
Cheers UTN, an in-depth run down.  Mine is the last one for #6436.

I dont like using 'used', but think ill take my chances over a URO one.  Neither are ideal situations.  Im told you cant get new keys cut for any model after asking at local dealer and the classic centre.  Some had suggested the Silka blanks are NLA.  Ive scanned ebay and may cough up the dollars for a new one unless....

RD, I will buzz you. If you have a new one thats awesome. 

Regards
Nathan
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: Harv on 01 January 2022, 05:29 PM
Have you tried giving it a proper cleaning and re-greasing it with clear dielectric grease?

Once a year I take my barrel out, dunk it in cleaner, clean everything with a fine tooth brush, then reassemble with dielectric gear in every part of the barrel. That usually keeps it nice and smooth with no sticking.
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 01 January 2022, 06:49 PM
I havent given it the clean Harv,
Im not sure if ever replaced, im the second owner.  The irony is Ive been having a few starting issues over the last year, first the transmission bushings (i replaced), then the starter solenoid played up (replaced), and now the ignition barrel.  the 116 gods are trying to hinder me! I just see the sticking key as a sign its on its way out and though i'd replace it, but its worth a shot of cleaning it out.

ultimately, a new barrel of any OEM sort would be fine.  I appreciate UTN suggesting the first gen ones werent as secure, but im not too phased about my 6.9 getting stolen (maybe famous last words!).  it sits in a monitored garage and only gets driven to car events every month or two. if someone wants to take it, they are probably going to take it.

Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: Harv on 01 January 2022, 07:21 PM
Uncle Kent has a nice video on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wi3bWetX2E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wi3bWetX2E)
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 01 January 2022, 10:25 PM
You guys are scaring me now, I think a lube of my tumbler is the first job of 2022...I guess I need thus "fancy coat hanger" tool to remove it :o?
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: Harv on 01 January 2022, 10:45 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 01 January 2022, 10:25 PM
I guess I need thus "fancy coat hanger" tool to remove it :o?

You need a little pin tool that is strong enough to depress a metal tab. A thick paperclip sometimes works.

Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 01 January 2022, 11:14 PM
Quote from: Harv on 01 January 2022, 10:45 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 01 January 2022, 10:25 PM
I guess I need thus "fancy coat hanger" tool to remove it :o?

You need a little pin tool that is strong enough to depress a metal tab. A thick paperclip sometimes works.

Thanks.   I see no place to insert this pin though, do you need to pull the cluster to access this magical pin?  I see on other forums you turn key to "1" which then reveals a hole but on my 6.9 I cannot see any access from the front.  Hmm...
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: UTn_boy on 02 January 2022, 07:06 AM
Quote from: daantjie on 01 January 2022, 11:14 PM
Quote from: Harv on 01 January 2022, 10:45 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 01 January 2022, 10:25 PM
I guess I need thus "fancy coat hanger" tool to remove it :o?

You need a little pin tool that is strong enough to depress a metal tab. A thick paperclip sometimes works.

Thanks.   I see no place to insert this pin though, do you need to pull the cluster to access this magical pin?  I see on other forums you turn key to "1" which then reveals a hole but on my 6.9 I cannot see any access from the front.  Hmm...

It's located at about the 1 or 2 o'clock position on the outer perimeter of the silver barrel between the barrel and the round black piece of trim.  Yes, you turn to position 1, insert the tool, unscrew the black barrel, and both pieces will come out together. 
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 02 January 2022, 08:59 AM
Ok thanks Aaron I'll have another gander, was late after a few beers last night, haha...
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 02 January 2022, 11:43 AM
OK, apologies for having somewhat hijacked this thread ;D

I took a pic of what I am seeing, I simply do not see any hole where you can insert said pin???

Looks like I might need this tool then?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/231770713240?hash=item35f69c6c98:g:zfoAAOSwHQ9WXa4s


Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 02 January 2022, 03:17 PM
in the first post I linked a video I made of the process, its quite evident.  your barrel looks like a 123 unit, not a 116 one?  The large black surround I thought was only on 123s, perhaps more knowledgeable people are aware.

Harv, I tend not to click on Uncle Kents videos, it tends to be like opening the door to a door knocker - they will ask for money!
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 02 January 2022, 03:46 PM
Quote from: nathan on 02 January 2022, 03:17 PM
in the first post I linked a video I made of the process, its quite evident.  your barrel looks like a 123 unit, not a 116 one?  The large black surround I thought was only on 123s, perhaps more knowledgeable people are aware.

Harv, I tend not to click on Uncle Kents videos, it tends to be like opening the door to a door knocker - they will ask for money!

Indeed I scoped out your video, nice and clear however for sure I have a different setup than yours.  Could be that mine was replaced but there is no pin opening on the face.
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 02 January 2022, 04:12 PM
ill take some pics of my spares, as I have a bout 4 barrels like yours lying around and dont recall stripping 4 123s!  But I just dont recall seeing these different types of barrels on 116s (maybe most I wrecked were later Australian ones with the last of the three barrels as per UTN)
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: UTn_boy on 04 January 2022, 03:59 AM
I agree that a different type of lock cylinder and barrel has been installed in the past.  Two things to point out:

1) When the key is in position 1, this type of black barrel will simply pull off.  Once removed as far as it'll go with the key in the lock cylinder, you turn the key to the off position, extract the key with the black plastic barrel.  Afterward, reinstall the key, turn to position 1, and the lock cylinder will then come out either on its own or after sticking a paperclip into the elusive hole which should be visible with the plastic barrel removed. 

2) Early ignition lock assemblies that had a chrome plated barrel is what may have been used on your car.  However, the chrome plated barrels are no longer available, and have been superseded by the plastic one.  So you either have an early W116 assembly with the plastic barrel or a later W123/R107 assembly with the plastic barrel. 
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 04 January 2022, 08:22 AM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 04 January 2022, 03:59 AM
I agree that a different type of lock cylinder and barrel has been installed in the past.  Two things to point out:

1) When the key is in position 1, this type of black barrel will simply pull off.  Once removed as far as it'll go with the key in the lock cylinder, you turn the key to the off position, extract the key with the black plastic barrel.  Afterward, reinstall the key, turn to position 1, and the lock cylinder will then come out either on its own or after sticking a paperclip into the elusive hole which should be visible with the plastic barrel removed. 

2) Early ignition lock assemblies that had a chrome plated barrel is what may have been used on your car.  However, the chrome plated barrels are no longer available, and have been superseded by the plastic one.  So you either have an early W116 assembly with the plastic barrel or a later W123/R107 assembly with the plastic barrel.

OK great thanks, I did try to get that black plastic cover off with key in "1" but it looks like it is pretty stuck on there.  Will report progress.

Cheers
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 04 January 2022, 11:29 AM
The plot thickens, or maybe it's my brain thickness ???  I removed the cover but still see no pin opening.  Only a circlip/snap ring.  I rotated the ring along it's whole path and did not see a hole for where a pin would be able to go in.  Hmmm...I really do not want to mess this up and get stuck with a key not going in or not turning the ignition, might just have to leave well enough alone...Pic attached for what it's worth:

Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: goldacre on 04 January 2022, 08:21 PM
Is the pin being confused with a circlip? Looking at the pic the part around the barrel is a circlip and there is enough space around it to use a appropriate circlip removal tool to remove? Odd how it's set up but if circlip removed at least the outer part would be free to be pulled out?

G
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: UTn_boy on 05 January 2022, 09:05 AM
The circlip only holds the core in.  For this type, there will be a little spring loaded pin you push in on the area behind the instrument panel.  Rather than trying to explain in detail in another short novel, I'll try to get some pictures to post later today. 
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 05 January 2022, 09:44 AM
Quote from: UTn_boy on 05 January 2022, 09:05 AM
The circlip only holds the core in.  For this type, there will be a little spring loaded pin you push in on the area behind the instrument panel.  Rather than trying to explain in detail in another short novel, I'll try to get some pictures to post later today.

Thanks Aaron, much appreciated ;)  No rush, this one is low on the list (for me at least ;D)
Cheers
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 05 January 2022, 04:15 PM
a quick couple of picks. I had written on these I pulled them out of a gwagen 460, early 6.9 and not sure of the other!

Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: daantjie on 05 January 2022, 04:36 PM
I am pretty sure mine is the same as your one stamped with "Neiman 160".  If you look at my last pic I posted you will see the "160" on the outer rim of the face.
Title: Re: Ignition barrel replacement
Post by: nathan on 05 January 2022, 07:16 PM
I imagine you release the lock via that hole on the side which would be a bastard, as it means the lock mechanism has to be out to release it! Ive never tinkered with one of these yet but UTN will give the word I trust.