HELP! Car does not Crank

[500eguy]

Ok, The update up my broken car.... It seems like the one of the valves broke and basically destoryed the motor, i recently changed the oil on the car, the oil that came out was black black.... it seems that the inside  of the motor was gunky, so luckily the Mech. has a spare motor that is in good cared for working order that he will put into the car. A total of $2k incl. motor and labor. I am going to go that route because the car is to good to throw away and i don't want to go to the extra expense of fitting a different motor into the car.

[oscar]

Geez!!!!!!! I wasn't expecting to hear that.

What sort of oil did you use for the change?

Mine comes out black black too.  But after reading the carbibles link Brian put in the Suppliers sticky in the Shop section and after Carl Jones' recommendation of full synth oil and regular changes to keep sludge away and the inside clean, I decided to buy a thin 0-20W semi synth for a flushing oil, then put in Mobil1, a full synth.

A possible problematic outcome as the cleaning agents of the flushing oil and the synth go to work is that rather then dissolving sludge, big pieces get circulated which might block oil bores leading to engine failure.  Last year someone in the US posted a thread how their 450 engine failed due to an oil rail clogging and a camshaft tower exploding.  Scary shit yeah!!.  I did over 1100km last Sunday.  No problems yet.  But my oil changing regime has been at least twice a year in the past four, with not that much mileage travelled.  Maybe 15-20,000km.  So I'm assuming I'm safe.

What's interesting is that the flushing oil came out black with new oil filter and idling at 1500rpm for 30mins.  The Mobil1 is still clear with new oil filter.

Are you sure the motor's not salvageable?  $2k is pretty good though I reckon for an installed replacement.  I'm glad you're sticking with it and staying round here.

The 450 I spoke of earlier was Herrbenz's.  Check that scary photo out   here's the link: http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/help/msg1686/#msg1686  Are you still around Herrbenz?  Did it all get fixed?

[Brian Crump]

Oscar - which grade Mobil 1 are you using?
There is an argument that Mobil 1 will burn off too quickly in an older motor and if this is true you will need to keep an eye on the oil level. I don't know if that argument is valid or not.
I use Mobil Super S 15-50 and use no oil between changes, which I do every 6 months regardless of how little I have used the 450SE. http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Super_S.asp or http://search.exxonmobil.com/ledr/query_adv.html?searchNow=Submit&chooseLanguage=en&URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.exxonmobil.com%2Fledr%2Fquery_adv.html&col=ledr&nh=25&st=1&rf=0&qm=0&pw=100%25&ws=0&lk=1&rq=0&la=ru&si=0&qc=ledr&co=Australia&tx0=MOBIL+Lubes+%2FPDS&op0=%2B&fl0=url%3A&ty0=w&tx1=Automotive+Engine+Oils&op1=%2B&fl1=category%3A&ty1=w&tx2=&op2=%2B&fl2=subcategory%3A&ty2=w&tx3=&op3=%2B&fl3=synthetic%3A&ty3=w&tx4=&op4=%2B&fl4=industry%3A&ty4=w&tx5=Australia&op5=%2B&fl5=country%3A&ty5=w&tx6=&op6=%2B&fl6=foodgrade%3A&ty6=w&tx7=&op7=%2B&fl7=eal%3A&ty7=w&tx8=&op8=%2B&fl8=type%3A&ty8=w&tx9=english&op9=&fl9=language%3A&ty9=w
Yes - it is a real url - just bloody long!!
Food for thought and food for further comment.
Regards,
BC

[oscar]

I used Mobil1 Super Syn 5w-50.  I used to blow a lot of smoke before the valve seals were replaced but the guides still need doing and although the compression has been good in the past, I've no doubt that some oil would slip by the oil ring.   I've been berated for putting a shell synth in a long time ago (by a relative ex mech).  Sure it was for vct engines but I figured a thin oil wouldn't do any harm. Unless it's too thin.  I can't remember that grade now and I know too thin can be dangerous, such as the flushing oil I used, but I figure now 5-50 would still provide a film between contacting metal parts in an older engine.  Plus the label said so.  

I've also used minerals-that Shell for "older engines" and Penrite 20-70 or something like that.  I dunno which is best.  I just felt like synths were worth a try again.  I'll go this 5-50 for now then might goto 15-50 next change.  I tried those links and did a bit more digging.  I'm happy ATM with what I read.

[500eguy]

That is what the front of my cam looks like.... it just got destroyed! i love my 116 so much, i couldn't part with such a fine old car! i am just glad they had a good engine, because i wasn't sure on where to find a good motor. I changed the oil using 10w-30 i believe and a new Spec oil filter. i was thinking about cleaning up the old motor and making it a display! i think that would look pretty cool!:) i was contemplating a 6.9 swap but i don't think the motor is readily available.

[John Hubertz]

I've had that a couple of times on 380s and 420s (not mine thank God).

I always thought it was the result of using an oil that had insufficient viscosity - like a 5W X or even a 10WX vs a 20 - 50 or straight 30 weight.

Styria, what is the cause, do you know?

[Andrew280SEL]

I used Mobil1 Super Syn 5w-50.  I used to blow a lot of smoke before the valve seals were replaced but the guides still need doing and although the compression has been good in the past, I've no doubt that some oil would slip by the oil ring.   I've been berated for putting a shell synth in a long time ago (by a relative ex mech).  Sure it was for vct engines but I figured a thin oil wouldn't do any harm. Unless it's too thin.  I can't remember that grade now and I know too thin can be dangerous, such as the flushing oil I used, but I figure now 5-50 would still provide a film between contacting metal parts in an older engine.  Plus the label said so.  

I've also used minerals-that Shell for "older engines" and Penrite 20-70 or something like that.  I dunno which is best.  I just felt like synths were worth a try again.  I'll go this 5-50 for now then might goto 15-50 next change.  I tried those links and did a bit more digging.  I'm happy ATM with what I read.

I'd have to check the exact type, but we use Pennzoil (is that spelt right?). I hope this is good, certainly our local MB specialist swears by it.

[torana68]

I have used Valvoline XLD since destroying a engine in a rally car on a well known competitors oil................ I have no engine issues relating to sludge or seizure on Valvoline changed by time or mileage which ever comes up first. I wouldn't use anything less then 20W50, no point in doing so but a few points against, older engines (as in high mileage) have greater clearance between running surfaces due to wear, you need thicker oil in there when its hot, you could also cause oil burning past rings with thinner oil as well as bore glazing from that (stuffed engine).... I believe my 450 was on Penrite before it died (not related to the oil I'm sure) it showed little signs of wear but was extremely dirty inside.
Roger

[oscar]

torana,
I hadn't thought about glazing.  I had some very positive compression figures a while back.  Around the 160-170psi mark.  If anything I'm worried about the other places the 5w50 might get into or rather, what it might break loose from seals, gaskets and some carbon depositis that might be doing good elsewhere.

I thought 5w50 would be a happy medium and to be honest, the engine is a tad quieter after the Bowral run and the occasional smoke out the exhaust under certain circumstances hasn't changed (so I've been told).  It's too early to tell.  I'll still give it a chance and change it to a 15w or 20w for summer.

[Brian Crump]

Oscar - with those compression figures and still some smoke under certain circumstances (you don't say what but I'm going to assume accleration and deceleration?) you may have some wear in the valve stems or simply be in need of new valve stem seals. If it just the seals then the fix is easy (so long as you have or can manufacture the appropriate tool). No amount of fiddling with oil will alter that but I agree with Roger that too light an oil may result in glazed bores over a period of time. The viscosity you have chosen would seem to me to be OK. If you were using 0-40, for example, I think you would burn oil.
I have heard all kinds of horror stories about leaking gaskets and loosened carbon deposits when people moved from conventional to synthetic oils but I have never spoken to anyone who can verify the stories nor have I seen it happen. Anyway, all good qaulity oils for the past 10 years have been high detergent oils so you are not really at risk of leaks/blockages from using synthetic oils - IMO (I hope I am correct). You can actually verify the detergent level by comparing the oils on the specs sheet from the Mobil site I referred to.
I tried to get a definitive answer on oils for the R-R when I bought it. It's a big lazy motor with wide tolerances (unlike a modern alloy motor) and the best answer came from the factory. Use any good quality synthetic 15w-50 for at least the first 500,000 ks.
Tricky cams etc may require a lighter oil but we don't have multi valve, variable cams to worry about...
Regards,
BC

[oscar]

Hi BC,

Valve seal replacement 18months ago relegated the term "fumigator" by the odd antagonist at work   But old valve guides and worn stems are the most likely cause of smoke during forced engine braking. ie shoving into first at 60-70km/hr, no accelerator or brake.  Hard acceleration smoke only really occurs if the timing is too far advanced and on really cold mornings before the engine has warmed.  Incidentally, I've got a stable timing light finally after a temporary fix on my soon to be replaced rotor.  But my vac advance/retard is shot.  If I don't hit a sweet spot when adjusting the timing correct at idle, irrespective of manufacturers recommendations, the smoke can be noticeable but not embarrassing and sometimes not distinguishable if grey or black.  It's only faint at best when the timing is right.

I tried the thick Penrite stuff after being told here about the probable valve guide and valve stem wear issues and thought that might cure the engine braking smoke.  All it did was delay the onset.  The smoke was still there eventually. 

You're right about the detergents in oils.  Too true, and I think you're right that I have less to fear of big free floating chunks of gunk.  Last time I removed the rocker covers, the hex nuts, drain holes and crevices, nooks and crannies, were all free of sludge of any kind.  Just a normal discolouration.  Though my Dad did use lots of supermarket, cheapest oil you can buy for top ups.  But that was 4+ years ago.  It takes top shelf stuff now.  Ever since the valve seal replacement, I haven't needed to top up the oil between 6monthly changes.

[John Hubertz]

Frankly, I distrust the additives - change early, change often, use cheap SAE/ASE approved oil and top off with a bit of teflon friction modifier every 3rd change.

Why am I suspicious?  Well, because....  I'm a paranoid lunatic.




...and, my Dad was somewhat traditional...



...and, my brothers told me "oil is by-Gawd OIL, and you gotta be a tail-swishin GIRL to pay for that crap"



...and of course, chicks dig the odor of genuine petroleum...

[500eguy]

I am a happy man today, my 450 came back from the shop yesterday with a Fresh used motor and transmission, A load of new parts, the final bill ended up to be $2840. My Mechanic said the real bill would have come out to about $5400 with all the new parts, the motor that is in the car now runs smooth and very good. It needs to be run and the Throttle cable needs to be adjusting because i am not getting full throttle, other than that it seems everything else went smoothly.

[Andrew280SEL]

Ah, a success story!

That's good to hear. 

[oscar]

Ditto.  That's great news!!!
That seemed like a pretty quick fix and bloody cheap IMO.  I suppose you handed in the old motor?  What's to become of it?