Hello gentlemen
This huge silver barge of mine has become a money pit and as reliable as a Lada >:(
Before spending MORE money, I am going to try to see if any of you fellows can help.
The problem : the car refuses to start some of the time. When it does that, it sounds like nothing firing at all, when it eventually catches, it feels like no fuel - I have to pump the gas like some bloody old carburetted Lada to get it going and it dies so very, very reluctantly with a belch of smoke before finally catching on. The fuel filter is new, the fuel pressure regulator is new, all pipes and clamps are new/cleaned, checked, the cold start injector does its job...
I recently drove this car 250km without the slightest hint of a miss. When cold it either starts nstantly or not at all. When hot, it tends NOT to start >:( but it might.
I have jumpered the two ballast resistors and that SEEMS to help, but as I said, it will sometime start and run very well. Any ideas ?
As I said, this is a dog of a 350SE and quite frankly, this is the kind of thing that makes me feel that I should have sold the W116 INSTEAD of the diesel W123, which is, in many ways, a better car than the W116 8)
Denis
Paris, France
Hi big Richard
I thought I would get someone's attention with the Lada statement ;D
But you know, a Rolls that wont start reliably isn't worth a running Austin Minor ;)
Back to my beast, it's a D-jet and as I said, it can actually run very welll on the road.
I just went out this morning - it started perfectly BUT there was no residual pressure in the fuel ring. I decided to check the fuel pressure and will do more tests after lunch.
The only thing left to do is parts substitution after checking that the fuel pressure holds in the fuel ring (2 bars running, no dip under 1.5 when stopped for 5 min. ).
It could be a bad fuel pump and a pressure /volume test might show this but if so, why does it run/accelerate so well on the open road ? If the cold start injector were defective (leaking), that would explain zero residual pressure right ? worth "substitution testing".
The ignition looks great and as I said, the car runs well, I am going to do "substitution testing" of the coil also. I am mystified about the effect of jumpering the two low resistances in the ignition circuit - it SEEMS to help startup. How can that be ?
OK, big Richard, I wont say Lada anymore but I sure wish I hadn't sold my W123 diesel - one of the very best out of Unterturkheim.
Denis
Paris, France
Are all the grounds/earths adequate on the D Jet,dunno,just throwing it out there. ???
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j27/nuts4benz/djet1.jpg)
Hi Nutz
The answer is YES. As I said, a DOG of a 350SE.
Denis
Paris, France
I logged in just to throw in my two cents, and then I saw that Nutz had beaten me to it - and did a better job (what with his diagram) to boot.
But since I logged in and all...
I might be entirely wrong here, but whenever I have something that is intermittant (as you seem to be describing) I always worry that there's a bad electrical somethingorother involved - particularly a faulty ground. When you've got an insufficient ground, some days the electron fairies dance and prance just like they're supposed to, and some days they wander off where they don't belong and pout. I know Nutz's "fancy schmancy" diagram was more scientific (and useful) than my "dancing fairy" theory, but there it is.
Have you wired your electrical fuel system parts directly to the battery to test for pouting electron fairies? I read your earlier posts a while back, and can't remember.
Monsieur Michaeld
Is your "dancing fairy" theory in any way related to the Lucas theory of electricity that states : electricity is actually smoke carried in wires, the proof is taht when something fails, like a starter motor, it looses all its smoke (as can be observed) and no longer runs :o
If so, I will looks onto this with my high-impedance, 20 Mhz sampling Tektronix fairy dance detector ;D
Hmmm... looking at grounds...once more, might help...
Denis
Paris, France
Quote from: Denis on 01 May 2006, 03:34 AM
Monsieur Michaeld
Is your "dancing fairy" theory in any way related to the Lucas theory of electricity that states : electricity is actually smoke carried in wires, the proof is taht when something fails, like a starter motor, it looses all its smoke (as can be observed) and no longer runs
Denis: I think that Lucas Prince of Darkness helpers are more likely to be debil-debils than dancing fairies! ;D
Lucas was one of two bad "features" of all postwar British cars - of all market and engineering levels; the other "feature" was the mandatory, no-cost "option" of the oil drip.
It is rumoured that Lucas once tried to build a computer but, having failed to make it leak oil (or smoke!), abandoned the project. ::)
First off, you may need to look into the Lucas PN 530433 replacement wiring harness smoke.
http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm
Have you measured voltage at the coil while cranking? If the jumpered resistors help it start, the start terminal on the starter might be part of the problem. Either the contacts in the solenoid or the wire itself. Could also be the key switch itself. Try measuring the voltage at the coil as shown in job 07.4-125.
Michael
Hi fellows
Back to reality. The voltage at the coil, terminal 15 is not 12v but is not supposed to be. I checked and tested the two resistors and switched to a known good coil.
Still no go, but spark present. >:(
I finally got the car sputtering by madly pumping the accelerator pedal, and it stuttered to life. Good, with a fuel pressure gauge installed betwen the cold start valve and the fuel rail, I went to check the fuel pressure with the engine running (smoothly). Zero bars... :o :o :o...OK, I figured there was air trapped so I cranked the engine to move fuel up the gauge line up to the disconnected gauge head, refitted the head and started the engine. Still 0 bars... ??? ??? ???
By now, I figure that the fuel pump is defective. It can pump enough volume at some silly pressure to get the engine running but nowhere near the 2.1 bars required. What else would explain this ? The defective pump will also not allows a help pressure in the fuel rail - if I disconnect a neoprene fuel line, there is some pressure but not two bars. This is attribute to either the check valve in the pump being defective and/or the pump being worn enough that it will not develop much pressure.
Any other idea before I order a fuel pump ?
(Sigh)....sparks....electric fuel pumps...(sigh) (dream of diesel)...
Denis
Paris, France
So you've done a pressure and volume test? How many liters do you get in 30 seconds?
Hi Nutz
It pumps a half liter per 30 seconds but that is just unrestricted flow. When connected, it seems incapable of raising significant pressure depite the new FPR >:(
Sounds like a worn pump to me, don't you think ?
Denis
Paris, France
Yea, it does sound like a pump gone bad. The wife's car had the wiring at the pump go bad and the car would stall sometimes. That is until the wires burned off. At the pump. In the tank.
Michael
Just a question.
Do I need to buy the D-jet pump or can I use the later, and much cheaper, K-jet pump ?
After all, I just need anything that fits and will pump 3 bars or so and deliver volume, which is usually not a big problem. It is easier for me to get a 380/420/500 W126 pump than a W116 part.
Bye for now
Denis
Paris, France
No,you have to use a D Jet fuel pump.You can also find one on a;
W111/108 with V8
R107 up to 1975
Denis,
Re: your earlier question concerning the rationale behind my earlier post: It's "where there's smoke, there's fire," NOT "where there's smoke, there's fairies!"
I'm not certain whether the conventional flow theory (positive to negative) or the electron flow theory (negative to positive) of electron movement is correct, but I have convinced myself that fairies must surely be involved in the process. Something is dancing around in them wires! Oh, sure, the more rationalistic among you say its just the negatively charged portion of atoms, but there's been too many times when my (so-called) "electrons" showed they had minds of their own! Hence, the dancing fairy theory of electrical flow. The trick is to appease the fairies so they do not become angry with you and decide to go off in some unwanted direction to pout - and if you make them REALLY mad, they will wave their magic fairy wands and flat out melt something! I've seen it with my own two eyes, I have!!!
Not knowing the intricasies of K-jet and D-jet relationships, I can only agree with Nutz that you should stay "au naturale" (Sorry, alll; it just seemed like a good way to express remaining completely stock to a guy from Paris) so that you eliminate any chance for some unknown variable rearing its ugly head.
I wish you good luck with your 350, Denis. I hope it's the pump, after all; and not some ticked-off fairies!
Here's what you're going to be on the lookout for Denis.Smash it upon sight.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j27/nuts4benz/fairy.jpg)
Lucas theory??? Dancing Faires??? Anime electron fairies??? Those physics lectures I spent in the Pub all those years ago, look what I missed. :(
Bloody hell Denis, what's doing? Not what I wanted to hear. After a few weeks on holidays I come back to hear about your dog?? Is it moisture? Just kidding we've been there.
I really wish I could help and wonder if it's something simple. I think from your previous thread your ECU's fine and you replaced much of the fuel lines. The whole grounding theory holds up. Even if nuts are tight the connection can be poor, but I assume you've looked into this before. Is it possible a feed line from pump or filter is kinked or blocked?
I dunno. Going back to the fairy thing, I don't suppose the google ads below might help. ;D
Keep us posted. Good luck.
Hi guys
I got a hold of a good used fuel pump for 20â,¬. Staright from a 1973 350Se taht had 159000km...new pump right ;D
I'll keep you posted.
Denis
Paris, France
But...but... Nutz, us frenchmen never smash cute little pink ladies as in the picture ;)
Hi fellows
Good pump fitted - still not very good >:(
So I went back to basics and set the ignition to a static 10deg BTDC (Euro car). It started but took a while to catch on. Immediate shut off, and set timing to about 20deg BTDC static- starts much better still a low idle, not very smooth and with only modest response to the D-jet idle screw position....
What is this ?
I am going to test fuel pressure after the regulator tomorrow, just try finding parts like 8mm T fittings in France >:(
What is going on here ? The car feels normal on the open road but I want to look at cam timing.
QUESTION 1 : What is the EASY check to cam timing - chain stretch and position ?
Michaeld, was it you who complained about mercedes being tough to work on ? you are right (except for a 240D).
QUESTION 2 : How do you guys turn the bloody crankshaft pulley on these V-8s ? On my 6.3, I had a 50mm socket, a short extension and a 1/2 inch ratchet - no problem at all and that car is known as being hard to work on.
But this 350 is WORSE, arrgh ! Now with an electric fan in front of the radiator, one could turn the crankshaft easily and save a bit of power and wear on the water pump ::)
Denis id getting very fed up with W116 dog car :'(
Please help !
Denis
Paris, France
Denis,
Just had an idea: have you checked your throttle body? A dirty throttle body COULD cause your symptoms. A dirty throttle body would cause a car to not idle properly, and/or stall. I'd say cleaning it's worth a try (AND it would cost you nothing more than a can of cleaner!!!).
Some other possible culprits: a maladjusted throttle stop; a bad idle speed motor; a vacuum leak.
It sounds to me like you are getting to the end of your rope in terms of spending money - the phobia of throwing good money after bad - when it may/may not be the fix. Believe me, I've shared that fear!
Let's step back, scratch our heads, and think of CHEAP and easy fixes that you haven't tried yet.
And give us (or link us to it, since you've described it before) your symptoms: If I understand correctly the car has a hard time starting; when it starts, it runs roughly (at least sometimes); it seems fine at some RPMs but not at others. Let us know. We have to think like detectives and try to think of one thing that could explain ALL the systems.
Anyway, if you haven't already done so, I would clean your throttle body. It would be AWESOME if your problem was some dirty component that can simply be cleaned.
Can anyone think of other possibilities? List them in order of cheapness and easiness for our good, albeit frazzled, friend Denis.
Denis,
I'm also thinking that we need to mine a greater lode of D-jet knowledge, as that is a rare configuration on a 116, and we are a small group.
I'm going to post this entire conversation on a 107 site, and if someone knows of a site that has a lot of 280SEL 4.5 members please do the same.
SUCH frustration to have a poor-running hobby car.
Quote from: Denis on 04 May 2006, 12:11 PM
QUESTION 1 : What is the EASY check to cam timing - chain stretch and position ?
QUESTION 2 : How do you guys turn the bloody crankshaft pulley on these V-8s ? On my 6.3, I had a 50mm socket, a short extension and a 1/2 inch ratchet - no problem at all and that car is known as being hard to work on.
Answer 1: Take the right (passenger side in LHD) valve cover off, and then turn the crankshaft with a socket until the marki on the camshaft is aligned, then read what it says in the crankshaft, should be quite closely aligned. I would say that if you dont here a slap of the chain during startup for about 2 seconds when you start the engine, there should be no problem. This kind of problem should come gradually and not suddenly as in your case.
Answer 2: at least in a 450 it is a 27 mm socket and short extension and rachet. It should be easy to turn (clockwise of course).
Although I dont know much about D-jets, I would still think the problem is electrical.
- In a totally dark place, start engine and do you see lightening flashes, then it would be your ignition wires, You have measured the wire resistances, right?
- You did try another ignition coil, maybe what you tried is also caput
- You should try another ignition box, mounted on the fender, borrow from a friend.
- Take a further good look inside the ignition distributor for cleanliness, corrosion and cracks, is the rotor perfectly good also from the bottom?
- measure the vacuum produced when idling
-
How do the spark pulgs look like ?
this comes to my mind,
salut.
John Hubertz !!!
Yes John, the timing was OK 8000km ago but no longer ! YOU had the SOLUTION !!!
I removed the right hand valve cover. The timing was well off by about 12 degrees !!! fearing the worse, I checked the compression. The car has between 9 and 10 bars in each cylinder, which is fairly steady but too low (who knows when the valves are opened now). So at least the engine has survived. Just to think, only 309 000 km and already an engine problem 8)
So the car starts, runs OK if very rich and has apparently not suffered from the crazy timing ;D
I suspect that the PO changed the timing chain but NOT the tensioner >:(
There are clear chain marks on the inside of the right hand valve cover. It probably jumped at startup.
Now unfortunately here goes MORE money. The problem with these cars is that it doesn't take long before you spend more on them than they are worth i.e; - you can find a better one for the cost of the parts :(
What is the general wisdom on this job : chain, tensioner and any rails change recommended - my engine has the amber looking plastic ones.
Anybody can suggest euro parts sources for this ?
Danke sehr aus frankreich
Denis
Denis,
Sorry to hear that's the problem. I wonder, Styria, if he simply resets the timing, what are the odds of this happening a second time? Seems a damn shame to waste a ton of money on new tensioners if he doesn't absolutely need them, and 309k isn't that much wear.....
John
I am still not so convinced that your chain has slipped. Take both valve covers off and see if you have broken plastic rails on top. If yes, then possibly it has slipped a tooth.
The crank turns 2 revolutions as the cam turns one revolution, which means that the 36 teeth (if I remember correctly) of the cam to slip one tooth will displace the cam by 10 degrees and it should result in a displacement in the crank of 20 degrees.
Your 12 degrees is in the middle. But this is not the correct procedure to do the timing. It is not precise enough. You need to measure the valve lift with a guage and use some woodruff key to place the cam gear accordingly (special MB procedure I have never tried).
But if your right and left bank cylinders have equal pressure, it does not sound like chain slip. And the spark plugs from the different banks, do they differ?
The spark plugs all read rich and the compression on the right bank is closer to 9 bars while the compression on the left bank is closer to 10 !
I have rechecked the position of the crankshaft and indeed it is close to 20 deg, not 12 deg.
The problem is the cost of the tensioner, the best I can do is - 212â,¬ :o
If anyone knows better, I am listening :P
Denis
Paris, France
212 euros, jeesus.
I did this job last year and I got it for about 60 e here. Not from the officia MB dealer though, but same piece,
try http://www.niemoeller.de/ in Germany if you dont get it cheaper in France.
be sure to change your top plastic rails as well if you do it.
The tensioner is a real pain to fit back. the trick is to use longer screws to start and then when it is closer and the spring is compressed change to the original length screw one by one.
Thank you Tomi
I had forgotten about Niemoeller !!! yes, the prics are high in France unless one calls a shop in Strasbourg or Colmar in Alsacia 8)
I will give Niemoeller a try.
Meanwhile, what do you fellows think of my idea of resetting the cam shaft timing as close to normal as possible and driving the car to the corner store only ? I would avoid the ridiculously rich mixture !
Denis
Paris, France
Denis,
I posted your problem on a bunch of other boards, and the consensus is that you likely have a problem with your distributor - there are TWO sets of points, one for ignition, the other for injector timing.
Here is the text of the key response I've had - charles owns several D-jet cars and has years of experience with them:
(Denis,)
This is going to require patience. Don't assume something works, prove it. Don't skip a step and you'll keep those wits.
1. Start with clean plugs.
2. Check dwell and timing.
3. Disable the fuel system (disconnect the relay, the pump or the brain box) and make sure it starts well on ether.
4. Put a fuel pressure guage in the system in place of the cold start valve.
5. Clean the injection points.
6. Replace the rubber hose that connects the pressure sensor to the manifold. Make sure it is clamped.
7. Visually inspect all wires and plugs.
8. Loosen and then tighten the ground connections on the intake. One big hold holds down almost a dozen ground wires.
9. Turn the key to the point where the fuel pump runs. Make sure you've got a stead 32 psi (2 atu) reading on that meter. Turn it off and make sure the pressure doesn't drop immediately.
10. Follow the service manual procedure for testing the wiring and components with a meter. One of the more useful tests NOT listed, is to listen to the injectors for operation with a screw-driver pressed against your ear and the injector.
If you get past them and everything looks fine but it still doesn't run, I'd be surprised. Also if you get that far, think about replacing the rubber gaskets at the tip of the injectors. Unless you'd done that already in the past 5 years. They are critical for proper operation and get old and brittle and forgotten about out of sight and out of mind.
I have a 450sl with djet. I got lucky and noticed a broken wire at the brain box connection while just looking at the car during purchase. I pulled the harness from the car and bench tested each end with a meter. I fixed about a dozen wires. Some on one end, some on the other because they showed too much resistance between the contacts.
The moral of the story is that these old D-jet cars are subject to very pesky faults due to age. The system was not designed to work in such a fault laiden environment (it's not a Chevy). You are likely facing two if not three problems. Collectively, they are fustrating. Individually, you can find them and eliminate them.
-CTH
and then as a clarification:
Actually I was referring to the trigger points that control the fuel injection. On D jet, there are a second set of points lower down in the distributor, they slide in from the side. These tell the computer when to activate the injectors so that they are in time with the firing of the ignition system.
Chris
From all this, I'm going to say that if your chain hasn't slipped, it is likely the injection points for the injectors. That would explain both the intermittent nature of the problem and the fact that rotating the distributor has an effect.
John
Dear John, thank you for trying to make me feel better but alas, I did all those things and the last check proved that there is something very wrong with valve timing : the car now sputters up EVERY TIME I try to start it with the ignition set way too advanced while it sounds like it is firing well after top dead center :o To me that cannot be right and is related to the valves dancing at the wrong time.
And then the timing is well beyond the 3 to 7 degrees tolerated by most people and closer to 20. And the right cylinder bank has less compression than the left, another timing sign ! and then 9-10 bars on a Euro engine is terrible, it should be much higher and was not long ago.
Let it be known that I came dangerously close to sending this dog 350SE to the impound yard but it just looks so good...that it cannot be done - no more than sending Sir Sean Connery to sit in rags and beg for a pitance on some sidewalk on a rainy night.
There goes my budget again ;)
Denis
Paris, France
Hi Styria
Unfortunately, it is not a water problem. I completely drained the fuel tank in one of my attempts...all the simple things have failed.
I might take you up on that tensioner offer if it is the same part ;D
I will look into this next week. I need to get all the right parts and sort the engine : chain, tensioner guide rails. I am going to pick up a used but excellent complet exhaust system tomorrow (all OEM parts). And then there is more to do 8)
I will get back to you about the tensioner.
Merci
Denis
Paris, France