Author Topic: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again  (Read 142 times)

Trapo

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Hello, newcomer here.
Just putting 450SEL (117 eng) back on the road after 20 years of hibernation. Have done the proper fuel tank clean up, fuel pump+all filters renewed, all fluids changed, including brake fluid, before firing up.  It started easily but overheated.
Dismantled water pump and found a blob of coolant obstructing circulation.
A[/img]s water pump swap required distributor removal,  last night I was adjusting the high advance at 3000 rpm and milky substance started coming out of the breather hose on right  (from co pilot side) bank head cover
Other than a blown head gasket, how could coolant get in the crankcase?
Help anyone, as I intended to use it for my daughter's wedding next week!
Losing my hair on this....

PD. Sorry couldn't figure how to quickly load picts.
A Mini racer but an MB fan at heart.
My first MB: 220 1954
My second MB: 220S 1956
My third MB: 190 1961
W210 320 S, W210 270 CDI, 190 E
W116 450 SEL

daantjie

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #1 on: 10 May 2019, 09:00 AM »
Welcome here, to the best (but maybe only :)?) dedicated W116 site on the planet!
I would not panic just yet.  Check the coolant in the radiator itself, is that a caramel colour?  If it is clear, and the colour of the coolant I would say you are probably fine.
What I have seen at least is that some oil droplets can mist into the breather, even though there is a baffle plate inside the valve cover, some oil mist can still form inside the breather hose.  Then coupled with condensation after cold start, you can see this fuse into the milky/caramel colour you see.
But if you have this "mix" already formed inside the radiator then I would say it's bad news, probably blown head gasket ???
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

Trapo

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #2 on: 10 May 2019, 09:35 AM »
Daantjie,
Situation is worse than just a few drops, this morning checked oil level on dipstick and it was about 15 cm over the full mark, so  I assume most of the coolant has migrated to the oil pan....
Is there any water plug inside the block that might have rusted out?
Checked compression on each cyl and are close to normal ::)
A Mini racer but an MB fan at heart.
My first MB: 220 1954
My second MB: 220S 1956
My third MB: 190 1961
W210 320 S, W210 270 CDI, 190 E
W116 450 SEL

daantjie

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #3 on: 10 May 2019, 09:57 AM »
There are plugs you can remove to aid in the draining of coolant, should be on either side of the block.  But I do not profess to be an expert on this, or if it could lead to oil/water mixing, I guess if it rusted all the way so as to breach the area between the water jacket and oil passage.  I think on most of these old motors those plugs are super tight and likely frozen in the block, so you may open up a brand new problem trying to remove them.  The area is tight to work in so proceed with caution I would say.
You can use one of these type leak detectors to check for exhaust gasses entering the coolant:
https://www.amazon.ca/Lisle-75500-Combustion-Leak-Detector/dp/B0007ZDRUI
It works on colour change of the liquid.  But as you say, you have the milky colour in the oil pan now, it does not sound too promising :'(
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

rumb

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #4 on: 10 May 2019, 11:51 AM »
20 years is a while to sit. These beast dont take it kindly.  You could just be vaporizing moisture in the engine from sitting so long and then being started again.  I would drain the oil and see what comes out.  If you have a liter of water that's bad.  Head gaskets can leak water into oil, oil into water, leak externally or leak around the pistons. Since compression is good you need to verify what is in the oil pan. 
'68 250S, '77 6.9 euro, '91 300SE, '98 SL500 '14 CLS550

ptashek

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #5 on: 10 May 2019, 02:34 PM »
20 years is a while to sit. These beast dont take it kindly.  You could just be vaporizing moisture in the engine from sitting so long and then being started again.  I would drain the oil and see what comes out.  If you have a liter of water that's bad.  Head gaskets can leak water into oil, oil into water, leak externally or leak around the pistons. Since compression is good you need to verify what is in the oil pan.

I've found something interesting recently in the WIS job manual for head gasket replacement on the W124 - apparently the head gasket is guaranteed to be water tight only at operating temperature. It was very odd, and I've never heard of that before. Is that the case in general, and something that could be exaggerated by 20 years of just sitting around in this case?
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE (history, resto)
1977 "Milan Brown" W116 350SE (parted out)

Randys01

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #6 on: 10 May 2019, 08:43 PM »
Whatever is going on, diagnosis has to start like this and only worthwhile coz the compressions are good.
...doesn't mean we don't have a leak tho.

Remove cam boxes and clean all the "mayonnaise" out. 
Check all breather lines are clear
Drain engine oil ..replace filter. {don't use expensive oil coz this a purge exercise ]
Drain coolant
replace parts/fluids/ top up as necessary {don't use coolant.. it's going to be purged ]
Leave radiator cap off. Leave oil filler cap off.
Start engine
Observe what's going on. ..make sure you keep coolant level up and once at operating temp:
Note behaviour of coolant level in neck of radiator as you blip the motor.
- minor surge OK..large bubbling over -problem.
Replace radiator cap
Vary the rev range as she warms up and once satisfied she is thoroughly warm. turn it all off.
Replace oil filler cap.

Leave it over night. In the morning check:
 degree of mayo on the oil filler cap. there maybe a bit
degree of mayo on dipstick...there maybe a bit
check coolant level. As you have done a pressurised hot cycle, the neck should  be full..[the sealed circuit cooling system with reservoir ensures this]
check oil level.
If everything looks fair and reasonable then take her for a good long hot run with the crankcase breather tube going straight to the atmo .just for the test.
{sorry EPA}
If everything checks OK inc engine temp pattern then put it to bed and check next morning.
If everything checks out OK and mayo is neglible then I would drain  the oil again/new filter {these are cheap for you 116/117 guys! ] put it all back together and drive.

This rigamarole is to eliminate the possibility of condo accum over a long stand.
If at any point in the process something moves outside the bellcurve, then we have a more serious issue.
The most obvious litmus test is the level of mayo each morning.

So if we have a leak between water jacket and cylinder /crankcase,  [and it is not enuff to drop the compressions,] we have an easy fix.

Plan 2. I would never have believed this possible as most of the additives I've used in 55 years are by and large useless. However in fixing a blown head gasket on a Nissan 4cyl alloy head [what was left of it] we used this radiator additive and it is brilliant. It was meant to be a temp fix but it has lasted 1000 of miles in the past years.
Dynagrip Seal Tite avail from Supercheap/Repco is the product.

Report back how it goes.









revilla

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #7 on: 10 May 2019, 10:24 PM »
Hola Trapo !
Welcome to the forum.
You’ve come to the right place for advice.
I didn’t see many W116s in Spain the years I lived there. So worth preserving yours...!
Yes please, let the forum know about the outcomes. And Randy thanks for the procedure, and hopefully not many of us have to use it as not many “20-years-sleeping-beauties” left.
Good weekend everyone
« Last Edit: 10 May 2019, 10:46 PM by revilla »
Robert
W116 1977 280SEL & 1979 280SE

Trapo

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #8 on: 11 May 2019, 04:56 AM »
Thank you guy for all the good advice.
Definitely, I have come to the right place!.

Last night, I took the water pump off again as I could hear bubbling when I blew through the surge tank. I could hear the bubbling through the cam chain tensioner (right bank) with the head cover removed.  I thought it was strange to hear it inside the block...
And there it was, I found the culprit of finding all the coolant in the oil crankcase, a 5-6 mm hole on the plate where the pump is fixed to the block (inside the scroll shape recession) just where the blob of coolant was on the old pump. 

The metal wall must have been paper thin that it yielded to the crankcase pressure when revved to 3000 RPM, allowing all coolant to migrate down.  The hole wasn't there when I scrubbed all the remainings of the blob on the block.  A friend has told me that what I called coolant blob is actually aluminium rust eaten up from the block face.

I am getting ready to execute a temporary fix by threading the hole and placing a very short 6mm bolt held with high temperature epoxy. After I surely will follow Randy's procedure to get rid of the SLUDGE.  (Now I know how people feel when there's an oil tanker leak near their beaches, that stuff is so STIKY...)

Later I will proceed to dismount the piece and have properly welded or replaced, if it can be found.  But first, my W210 is in need of some TLC.

After all I think my daughter might be able to travel to her wedding in STYLE! 
Will keep you posted.
A Mini racer but an MB fan at heart.
My first MB: 220 1954
My second MB: 220S 1956
My third MB: 190 1961
W210 320 S, W210 270 CDI, 190 E
W116 450 SEL

Trapo

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #9 on: 11 May 2019, 05:03 AM »
Some pics...
A Mini racer but an MB fan at heart.
My first MB: 220 1954
My second MB: 220S 1956
My third MB: 190 1961
W210 320 S, W210 270 CDI, 190 E
W116 450 SEL

Randys01

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #10 on: 12 May 2019, 12:14 AM »
Well done on tracking it down and finding the root cause. 8)
 This is a palatable finding compared with some other possible scenarios.. there has been some bodgie work here in the past.

Basically the coolant level would have dropped to the level of the hole no matter how many times you topped it up and it all ran into the sump. Had you dipped the sump before you started it, you would have found water on the tip of the dipstick . once you start the motor the oil and water ultimately mix to make a mayonnaise sludge.
As the engine cools, the sludge condenses on the coldest part of the motor which is typically the cam box/oil filler cap.
The grunge also likes to live in the top of the crankcase in the webbing. This can take a bit of shifting so my degrunging procedure should still be followed to evap all the goo and drive the moisture out. Typically the bearings have had a diet of mayo as the oil will emulsify with the water coz the oil pump is a great little mix master.
After the degrunging procedure you will need to refresh the oil and the filter and then keep a close eye on the degree of mayonnise recurrence. I would expect it to be minimal partic as you are going to let the engine breathe the muck out to atmo before reconnecting the breather.
Do not thrash the old girl until you can see the oil on the dipstick is near like new and the mayo build up is gone. You may need to take long but gentle trip to get things up to full temp and drive the moisture out of the sump/crankcase /cam boxes etc.

Trapo

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Re: Coolant on oil pan - Long time storage prep to run again
« Reply #11 on: 16 May 2019, 11:48 AM »
Hola Trapo !
Welcome to the forum.
You’ve come to the right place for advice.
I didn’t see many W116s in Spain the years I lived there. So worth preserving yours...!
Yes please, let the forum know about the outcomes. And Randy thanks for the procedure, and hopefully not many of us have to use it as not many “20-years-sleeping-beauties” left.
Good weekend everyone

You are right. There aren't that many around, so info is hard to be found. Will try keeping it up in top shape.
Cheers
Trapo
A Mini racer but an MB fan at heart.
My first MB: 220 1954
My second MB: 220S 1956
My third MB: 190 1961
W210 320 S, W210 270 CDI, 190 E
W116 450 SEL