Air conditioning doesn't work...what to do

[johnnyhonest]

Does the can of oil not count?  and is it possible to overcharge???

Thanks

[oscar]

Yes it does and I also screwed up my maths sorry.      I think the oil should be treated as the same weight charge even though it has a completely different molecular makeup.

4 x 12oz = 48oz or 3lb which is 0.8lb overcharge.  So ignore my last post.

It's where the guesswork comes in.  If it was me and using cans, I'd drain the oil from the compressor (not sure where that is in a York compressor), then I'd recharge with the oil can first (engine and a/c turned on) then add 2 and a bit cans of the freon.  If you've got a set of digital scales handy you could measure the net weights of the cans to get a more accurate idea of how much is enough on that last can.  Keep in mind though that you're not using a vacuum pump to evacuate the system like the pros nor is it likely that the system will be completely empty in regards to lubricating oil.  So the chance of a slight overcharge is likely when you proceed with that last can and try for exactly 2.2lb.  But if the hoses are good, you're not going to get a catastrophic boom.  Err on the side of caution and try two and a quarter cans of freon.

It's where gauges come in handy.  Once the correct pressures are met you know there's enough in there.  I can't remember the correct L and H pressures but have a look at "a/c setback"  I'm sure I posted them in that thread somewhere. The gas I use only needs a 1/3 of the weight of R12, or about 0.6lb, so that sticker on the rad support panel that shows 2.2lb is strictly meant for R12 only.  Any other gas should be different.

[koan]

You might be being a bit generous with the oil "oscar'.

If the gas has gone but no oil has been lost no oil needs to be added but if oil has leaked as well the only way to get it correct is to drain the compressor (usually off the car) and flush the evaporator and condenser (oil droplets are supposed to be carried around the system) and add the correct amount. The book I have recommends a bit of guesswork as an alternative.

Don't the York compressors have a bolt on the side where a bit of wire can be poked into gauge the oil level?

Also oil is added to the compressor "sump", not via the charging ports, and 2.2 lbs of Freon is all Freon, not oil and Freon.

koan

[oscar]

I think I got my oil charge advice from one of those US ebay suppliers when I was originally looking at going with FR12.  I ended up with hychill"s HR12 as you know and the liquid oil ERG500 I put straight into the suction line in the 350 which has the rotary compressor instead of the York.  On PatB's advice I put in whatever he said which I think was 100ml approx.  So now I think about it, a 12oz can of oil is a fair bit more than 100ml.

I hadn't thought about the York compressor on the 280's with it's twin piston internals and how the oil should be applied to a sump.  I'll have a close look at the compressor I took off povo tomorrow and find the sump bolts or whatever is attached.

[koan]

I put straight into the suction line in the 350 which has the rotary compressor instead of the York. 

Sorry oscar, you're right, don't know what I was thinking, with the A6 compressor the oil goes into the suction line.

After putting in the oil the compressor should be rotated two or three turns by hand to make sure it's not locked up.

Not sure about the York though.

koan

[oscar]

As far as I thought, you can still put oil direct into the inspection hole in the side of an A6 compressor and fill it to the lip like you would a differential.  Is that right?  For the York, it looks like the oil goes into the side via the bolt pictured in the first photo.  No idea how to tell enough is enough apart from that dipstick tool you or someone else mentioned earlier.  Also, there's an identical bolt on the other side of the York that would normally face the motor and I don't know whether both have to be accessed and topped with oil.  Also I've no idea how you'd drain a York compressor apart from removing it from the vehicle and tipping it on it's side.  I did that and yellowish clear oil came out.   There's no simple sump plug underneath and I didn't have a 6point torx attachment to undo that cap labelled "ESTER OIL" to have a look inside.

[WGB]

The york is an old fashioned piston pump so presumably it has a sump with oil in it as well as a need for oil in the system.

?Do the two sides of the compressor meet each other or is a separate supply requitred for each "side of the piston".

Bill

[koan]

As far as I thought, you can still put oil direct into the inspection hole in the side of an A6 compressor and fill it to the lip like you would a differential.  Is that right?

The bolt into the side of the A6 is for checking the oil level,  take it out, dry it off, put it in, take it out, it should have oil on it.

It's a pretty small hole under the bolt but anything is possible with sufficient patience.

For the York, it looks like the oil goes into the side via the bolt pictured in the first photo.

It does, the dipstick (bit of bent wire) I saw was used on an angled compressor so it's dimensions would be different for a normally mounted compressor. What I've read of them they only mention accessing one bolt in the side so I assume they go into a common area.

And I know for a fact if you remove the bolt all the gas and a lot of the oil come out quickly

koan

[chinny4290]

Wow. Haven't checked this thread out in a while.

So my A/C won't work if I just straight up put 134 in it?

One of my co-workers who used to work at Sears Auto told me that I could do that and it would work, I would get cold air but not as well as an R12 system.

ARe there other ones I can get besides R12? He also said I could use propane and that would make it ICE cold, but that's a little too much of a risk 

R12 is really illegal here in the US, and you need a special license to obtain it, and even if you do obtain it, it costs up to $600 for a pound of the stuff!

And what about the R12-R134 retrofit kits, that changes all the o-rings etc etc...

Sorry, I'm a total noob here. And how can I check if my compressor is running? Also, this is what my receiver/drier looks like.

there are a bunch of htigns disconnected

[oscar]

r134a will work but whether it works as good as r12 is debatable.  There's mixed reports especially of late if you check hemersam's thread further down in mechanicals he's unfortunately not getting good results.  If doing r134a it really needs to be done properly which I believe hemersam has, ie system flushed, seals changed, new oil, new gas and a leak free system.  I know some guys here that have r134a and are happy with the results but are also on 450 setups not 280.   However, my red 280S when it was going worked well on r134a.  It has a york compressor and was converted by its previous owner.  The only problem it had was that the compressor was beginning to suffer from piston slap.

Other alternatives, propane does work, I'm using a similar thing called HR12 but in the US you can look up Freeze 12 by Johnsen (sp) which needs no conversion per se but a flush and new oil would still be a good idea.  Readily available in DIY cans.

The retrofit kits are basically rings that are compatible with r134a and are designed to cope with the higher pressure of r134a systems.  Older seals are supposed to be incompatible chemically and too weak to hold the r134a in.  Can't remember what the different materials are?

That thing you pictured is a receiver/drier.  I may need comfirmation here but the leads to the left are for a pressure sensor but I can't remember if it goes directly to the fan or elsewhere.  The two sets of leads down below look like the power leads for the aux fan.

[chinny4290]

r134a will work but whether it works as good as r12 is debatable.  There's mixed reports especially of late if you check hemersam's thread further down in mechanicals he's unfortunately not getting good results.  If doing r134a it really needs to be done properly which I believe hemersam has, ie system flushed, seals changed, new oil, new gas and a leak free system.  I know some guys here that have r134a and are happy with the results but are also on 450 setups not 280.   However, my red 280S when it was going worked well on r134a.  It has a york compressor and was converted by its previous owner.  The only problem it had was that the compressor was beginning to suffer from piston slap.

Other alternatives, propane does work, I'm using a similar thing called HR12 but in the US you can look up Freeze 12 by Johnsen (sp) which needs no conversion per se but a flush and new oil would still be a good idea.  Readily available in DIY cans.

The retrofit kits are basically rings that are compatible with r134a and are designed to cope with the higher pressure of r134a systems.  Older seals are supposed to be incompatible chemically and too weak to hold the r134a in.  Can't remember what the different materials are?

That thing you pictured is a receiver/drier.  I may need comfirmation here but the leads to the left are for a pressure sensor but I can't remember if it goes directly to the fan or elsewhere.  The two sets of leads down below look like the power leads for the aux fan.

You said your 280 worked well on R134a, because it had a York Compressor. According to the websites service manual. 280's came with Yorks...

http://handbook.w116.org/Climate/83-520.pdf

First sentence.

[oscar]

You said your 280 worked well on R134a, because it had a York Compressor. According to the websites service manual. 280's came with Yorks...

True, and it worked well, it's just over the past few years there's been mixed results with r134a that others have posted.  My main point is that if you do go r134a, get it done properly eg flushed system, new seals, new drier etc.  I was going to get one of those DIY retrofit kits for the 350 last year, but to be honest, I've got no idea where all the seals would go, so I used that propane mix HR12 instead.

That other question about checking the compressor function - (with engine running) if you've got a two dial setup for the fan and a/c, I'd get someone else  to turn them both on whilst you watch the clutch at the front of the compressor engage.  If you have the climate control push button version, I've no idea how to turn it on but do so, and again, watch the clutch engage in front of the compressor.  If it starts spinning, the compressor is moving.  As to whether it's performing well or not, you wont know until the system is charged.  If you do go to an auto a/c guy, he'll most likely test the system for functionality and integrity by charging with a small amount of nitrogen mixed with a fluorescent dye first to look for leaks.

[chinny4290]

You said your 280 worked well on R134a, because it had a York Compressor. According to the websites service manual. 280's came with Yorks...

True, and it worked well, it's just over the past few years there's been mixed results with r134a that others have posted.  My main point is that if you do go r134a, get it done properly eg flushed system, new seals, new drier etc.  I was going to get one of those DIY retrofit kits for the 350 last year, but to be honest, I've got no idea where all the seals would go, so I used that propane mix HR12 instead.

That other question about checking the compressor function - (with engine running) if you've got a two dial setup for the fan and a/c, I'd get someone else  to turn them both on whilst you watch the clutch at the front of the compressor engage.  If you have the climate control push button version, I've no idea how to turn it on but do so, and again, watch the clutch engage in front of the compressor.  If it starts spinning, the compressor is moving.  As to whether it's performing well or not, you wont know until the system is charged.  If you do go to an auto a/c guy, he'll most likely test the system for functionality and integrity by charging with a small amount of nitrogen mixed with a fluorescent dye first to look for leaks.

I'm going to give Freeze 12 a try.

It says I can use it as a "plug and play," or just put it in and it'll work, no change of oil or nada required. Now, when you change the oil of the compressor, what kind of oil should i use for F12? and how would i change it? (I've never done A/C work, other than a simple R134 charge).

ALso, isn' t it the case where if there isn't enough pressure in the AC system in terms of refrigerant, the compressor won't turn for purposes to keep the system intact and not damage it?

[oscar]

ALso, isn' t it the case where if there isn't enough pressure in the AC system in terms of refrigerant, the compressor won't turn for purposes to keep the system intact and not damage it?

My bad.   Yeah that's the case, sorry about that.  My 350's system was an early basic system and is the only one I've done any work on and as such didn't even have an auxillary fan up front which I ended up installing with custom wiring and doesn't have a pressure switch installed.

I'm not sure how to drain the oil from a york compressor unless it is removed and emptied thru that inspection hole at the side of the compressor.  I had a look at http://handbook.w116.org/Climate/83-520.pdf which doesn't really give any clues but it has got the dimensions of that self-made dipstick to check the oil.  From the way it reads, even if the system is charged you should be able to open that inspection hole and expect only a small amount of pressure in the crankcase to escape but the gas content wont escape through that hole.  For a flat system with no gas, there's definitely no dramas undoing the inpection bolt.

I'd try and make that home made dipstick and check the oil level then whack that freeze 12 in.  If the oil is low, I'd assume it would still have ester oil in it and I'd top it up with some of that as per the workshop manual link.

[chinny4290]

Thanks oscar. You da man.

If we were closer I'd buy you a couple beers