Last night and this morning I put brakes on the SD and this afternoon I had to go on a 120 mile trip (60 each way). I figured it'd be a good shakedown run for the brakes and AC.
On the way up it was in the low 90's and the AC worked well. It was in the 60's for the return trip so I got to try out the heat. It worked fine and I'm EXTREMELY happy with the car right now :D
The brakes feel good, the steering is tight, power is fine for what it is and all my interior lights/gauges are working as they should be 8)
I put cheapo shocks on it and the more I drive it the less I like them :-\ It does OK but it has a little more "bounce" than I'd like. If nothing else crops up I plan on getting some good OEM shocks and trying them out.
Anyway, all is well in 116 land tonight!
I'm waiting for a fresh air pod for the ACC to come in (Thanks Joe!) and the climate control will be functioning close to the way it was designed to operate.
I'll probably end up going with a GM V5 compressor for the AC if my old Delco gives me any trouble. I think it'll be a better "fit" for the ACC system because it's a variable displacement rig instead of an "Always pumping" compressor.
Quote from: 1980sdga on 22 May 2011, 03:18 AM
I'll probably end up going with a GM V5 compressor for the AC if my old Delco gives me any trouble. I think it'll be a better "fit" for the ACC system because it's a variable displacement rig instead of an "Always pumping" compressor.
I'd get some professional advice before going that way. Only advantage is a supposed increase in fuel economy and available power in micro engined cars. My wife's car has one and it's been replaced a few times.
Will a variable displacement compressor work with on/off switching from ACC?
koan
Is our system plug 'n play compatible with that? I was unaware such a thing existed, but that's a nifty design. It seems that the compressor would require some sort of input to decide and/or execute the amount of displacement to be used.
Kudos on getting it all to work! My AC compressor has no belt. I'm guessing some one left it that way for a reason.
1980sdga,
I would not mess with the V5 compressor. If you need to replace your R4, just get a new one, they work very well, last a long time and are not that expensive. Besides,300sd's are pretty efficient cars and fuel consumption doesn't change all that much when using the ac
Congratulations on getting the acc working properly, the vacuum pod should arrive on Monday or Tuesday.
Tks,
Joe
I have a friend who is a real AC guru. The guy's a whiz at doing AC retrofits in his old cars and his systems are really reliable and work well. It's nice riding in his early 60's cars with the AC blowing cold 8) He's a DIY guy and has mostly uses junkyard parts for his systems. He's one of those super clever guys that I WISH I could be more like!
Anyway, he's NOT a fan of the R4 compressor and seems to be in love with the V5. He's had some failures with new R4's and just generally doesn't like the radial design and the fact that it's not serviceable. He's rebuilt the V5's and says it's not difficult at all and can be done for about $20.
The main hitch with a swap would be dealing with the oil cooler lines which are bolted to the compressor bracket, plus building a bracket for the V5 that isn't a belt slinger ::)
It's just something I was thinking about. For now my AC is working well so I'm not fooling with it until I have too! Even then I'm not sure if a swap to a V5 would be worth the trouble. Just food for thought...
The V5 pump is a 5 cylinder with a "wobble plate" behind the clutch which changes the stroke of the pistons based on the high/low side pressures. This is how the variable displacement part works and my friend says it's really simple and reliable. Seems like it would work pretty well with the ACC because the compressor is always on with the R4 system (Unless the switch is "off") and it uses the heater core to "overpower" the evaporator when heat is needed. With the R4 the compressor just runs wide open all the time but the V5 has the ability to "back off" some when the pressure isn't needed.
All this is just advice from a person who's worked the kinks out of systems and has decided what works for him. He flat out said that he wouldn't have worked on the ACC system for more than an hour before just starting over without the servo, sniffer and computer.
He was pretty unimpressed with the ACC system in general just because of the complexity. I think that's what gives it a lot of it's charm though!
Sounds interesting 1980sdga, however, as far as I remember from my 79 300SD and my sister's 84 300CD, the R-4 should not stay on all the time, it cycles according to temp/pressure. Maybe the new R-4's are not as reliable as the old ones, that could present a problem.
Be interesting to find out what the benefits of a V-5 would be on say a 280 or 450, those cars fuel consumption do get affected by operation of the a/c, especially the 280's.
Tks,
Joe
Quote from: BWalker82 on 22 May 2011, 06:03 AM
Is our system plug 'n play compatible with that? I was unaware such a thing existed, but that's a nifty design. It seems that the compressor would require some sort of input to decide and/or execute the amount of displacement to be used.
All internal to the compressor, diaphragm(s)y sense pressure and move things to control displacement
koan
I'm think that the AC compressor is designed to run all the time when the system is on except when the "Air Cond" toggle in the "OFF" position. I believe that it switches on with the defrost as well which is supposed to dehumidify the air. I'm pretty sure I got that from the ACC manual but I've been reading soo much lately :P
I just looked it up and it says that the AC compressor is always running when the temp is above 2deg C (36 deg F). It also says that it runs all the time in "bi-level" and "defrost" even if the switch is off! Weird huh?
Here's the link:
http://handbook.w116.org/Climate/83-600.pdf
Pretty good reading if you want to know exactly what the system is supposed to be doing and when!
I took the car on the road today ;D 210 miles without a hitch. The AC just barely kept up with the heat but it was really hot down here in Ga. today so I was pleased! I left the house today at about 3:00 and got here at around 7:30. Backroads, freeway and straight through ATL on I-75 like A BOSS!
I think this car is going to live up to my expectations 8)
About the V5 vs R4 theorizing :D My friend said he wouldn't trust parts store version of either compressor to last long. That's why he likes the junkyard compressors from decent wrecked cars. He said he's never had one fail because the OEM parts have a lot better quality control. Pretty much the same story on any part though ::)
The system is a lot like a Volvo's ACC setup I formerly had. The system operated the compressor all the time (humidity control and to keep the systems seal's conditioned from dry rotting, the manual notes) unless the compressor was switched off on the panel. It would continue to run even with the ACC blower off. It was also odd that when you switched the compressor was switched OFF, an amber warning light illuminated on the compressor switch. The switch was also overridden by selecting the DEFROST setting, but not bi-level or any other combination of airflow.
The system was, of course, entirely electronic and far more reliable than I'm dealing with now. Yet I did have a condenser fail from stone impacts at the front of the lower air dam (a common fault/the later added screens to the lower air dam).
My '06 Cadillac has a similar system with the dual zone panel. The "Thermostat" is digital and it's all electronic. GM LAN, which is a network than the different components use to communicate, takes the place of vacuum lines ;D
I just think it's waaay cool to see how auto makers made these systems work 30 years ago and compare it to modern cars!
FYI: I ran both my '78 280SE (r12) and '85 190D (freeze12) for eight minutes w/ ac on, and the 190D ended up 5 degrees cooler out of the vents. This is after I recently evacuated 134a from the 280 and refilled with r12; the r12 was a little cooler than the 134a. I'm going to re-do the diesel and put r12 back in it, tint the windows to the legal maximum , and see what happens. In Texas, you need all the cooling you can get.
Hemersam
BTW, both cars have a Sanden compressor.
Quote from: Hemersam on 25 May 2011, 07:21 AM
FYI: I ran both my '78 280SE (r12) and '85 190D (freeze12) for eight minutes w/ ac on, and the 190D ended up 5 degrees cooler out of the vents. This is after I recently evacuated 134a from the 280 and refilled with r12; the r12 was a little cooler than the 134a. I'm going to re-do the diesel and put r12 back in it, tint the windows to the legal maximum , and see what happens. In Texas, you need all the cooling you can get.
Hemersam
BTW, both cars have a Sanden compressor.
Yep, pretty hot down here as well ;D My car is white and I'm also going to tint the windows. Tint also protects the interior as well so it's a win-win.
I wouldn't mind trying R12 but I have no idea where to get it ??? It's actually cooling pretty well. In the evenings it's TOO cold with the AC on max but I have some amp issues so my thumbwheel doesn't work all the time.
I'm debating the UT kit vs an aluminum servo and new amp. My servo is working but the main body is cracked. I used oversized screws to fasten the valve to the body and it's not leaking but it wouldn't surprise me if it started.
1980sdga,
I would go with an aluminum servo and new amp. The UT setup is not cheap either and the fact that it bypasses certain parts of the original system makes future diagnostics very tricky. An aluminum servo should last a very long time and if you have any problems you have the advantage of knowing what controls what. Just my .02
Tks,
Joe
Quote from: jbrasile on 25 May 2011, 05:52 PM
1980sdga,
I would go with an aluminum servo and new amp. The UT setup is not cheap either and the fact that it bypasses certain parts of the original system makes future diagnostics very tricky. An aluminum servo should last a very long time and if you have any problems you have the advantage of knowing what controls what. Just my .02
Tks,
Joe
I think that's the route I'll end up taking. I have a pretty decent understanding of the system as it is now so I'd have to start over learning to troubleshoot with the UT system. I've got a lot of time, frustration and sweat into figuring it out and that would be wasted if I changed systems ;D
The fresh air element came in yesterday! Thanks!
I'm pretty excited about getting the entire ACC system functioning 100% I'm actually thinking about just getting a new amp and see if it solves my problem. Mine keep failing intermittently with my home brew solder repairs. I think I'll look into why they are getting so hot before going that route.
Thanks again,
Jon
Jon,
The risk of getting a new amp with a cracked servo is that you may end up burning the new part if all of a sudden the servo decides to lock due to its condition. Your current amp may be getting hot because the servo is sluggish to respond, I'd do it the other way around, get a new servo first and see if the current amp works ok, you may get lucky there.
Tks for confirming delivery of the fresh air element.
Joe
I think that's what I'll do. The system works fine when I solder the joints back and it then it fails once everything has warmed up. My servo may be sticking when the engine is up to temp and hot water is at the valve. It seems to work fine once I straighten it out and test in the garage but once I take it on the road it craps out when I give it input from the thumbwheel.
Also with UT, if they stop supporting the product for what ever reason then you're STUCK!
sdga: if you wish, you can email me to find a potential seller (in my area) of "real" R12 refrigerant.
dr.fr.j@hotmail.com
Hemersam
Quote from: Hemersam on 25 May 2011, 06:55 PM
sdga: if you wish, you can email me to find a potential seller (in my area) of "real" R12 refrigerant.
dr.fr.j@hotmail.com
Hemersam
Mine has been converted to 134a but I don't know if that was just a valve change and evacuation/recharge ??? It has been working pretty well the past few days, especially on the freeway but it could use just a tiny bit more cooling power. Was an expansion valve usually part of a "pro" conversion circa 2000 ?
As far as I know, the expansion valve was replaced by some, but not by all (most, I think).
Hemersam
Let me pose a "theory" for those on the forum who know 1,000% more about these things than do I. Since the a/c system on a 116 always takes in some outside air (20%, I think), the faster you drive, the more of that air is entering your a/c system, thus making it harder to get maximum cooling inside the car (isn't that the point of re-circulated a/c?). I find that my a/c cools a little better at 35 mph than at 70 mph. My theory seems to make sense, but I don't know if it's true or not. I am open to enlightenment.
Hemersam
Dallas, Texas, USA
Quote from: Hemersam on 26 May 2011, 07:04 AM
Let me pose a "theory" for those on the forum who know 1,000% more about these things than do I. Since the a/c system on a 116 always takes in some outside air (20%, I think), the faster you drive, the more of that air is entering your a/c system, thus making it harder to get maximum cooling inside the car (isn't that the point of re-circulated a/c?). I find that my a/c cools a little better at 35 mph than at 70 mph. My theory seems to make sense, but I don't know if it's true or not. I am open to enlightenment.
Hemersam
Dallas, Texas, USA
I figured the same thing. My blower does not seem to work. However, when I'm at speed on the motorway, plenty of air comes thru the vents (albeit always hot air). It was nice in the past few weeks when it was cooler here in GA, but now, summer's coming on.
The manual says that the fresh air has 3 positions:
"OFF" is no fresh air input
All operating stages are 100% fresh air except "Max Cooling" which is 20% fresh air and 80% recirculated air. I've been running my AC quite a bit with the fresh air pod unhooked (It's leaking) and I'm not sure what position I left it stuck in ::)
Joe got me a new fresh air pot so it'll be neat to see how it functions!
Hemersam, does your blower work while on "Defrost"? If it doesn't then I'd start with fuses, blower motor and the blower relay. The car is engineered so that the defrost will still work if the rest of the system fails. If the blower works on defrost I'd move on to other areas.
Jon, with the fresh air pod unhooked you should have no fresh air coming in, it would be as if the system was OFF
Tks,
Joe
Quote from: jbrasile on 26 May 2011, 10:32 AM
Jon, with the fresh air pod unhooked you should have no fresh air coming in, it would be as if the system was OFF
Tks,
Joe
I've been running on "Hi Cool" a lot the past few days so having no incoming fresh air, along with plugged drains, is probably adding to my "swampyness". The designers obviously wanted some fresh air through the system when on "Hi".
I'm pretty confident we can get this issue resolved ;D
The "defrost" on my a/c works as designed, as do all other settings. I wonder if you were to block the fresh air intake, would the a/c continue to cool and would it then be working more-or-less like a newer car set on "recirculating air." Anyone know?
Hemersam
Quote from: Hemersam on 26 May 2011, 01:16 PM
The "defrost" on my a/c works as designed, as do all other settings. I wonder if you were to block the fresh air intake, would the a/c continue to cool and would it then be working more-or-less like a newer car set on "recirculating air." Anyone know?
Hemersam
I was thinking along those lines as well but I'm shooting for factory operation :P You should try fixing your fresh air element in place set to no outside air.
I have one side of the element leaking on the element in my car. I can't get ANY actuation in one direction and NO vacuum would build up when tested. The other side holds air...
Here's the element I got from Joe:
(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww112/jhoff/IMG_2189.jpg)
I still haven't really looked to see what and how it actuates ::) It's near the pink actuator that also controls fresh air. I think maybe it takes the 2 valves to accomplish the on/off/20-80. Still haven't dug in to see how :-\ It's not necessary for this part of the system to be functioning for the rest of the ACC to work so I just bypassed it for the moment.
I'm also having some humidity issues which are mostly related to plugged drains (I believe) but couldn't it also cause some humidity problems (Or something else) with having 100% recirculated air ? Maybe new cars actually have some fresh air taken in when on recirc? Just thinking aloud...
Everything I know (Or think I know ;D) about AC systems has mostly been picked up in the last few months so keep that in mind ;D
If the fresh air actuator is completely bypassed you will have 100% recirculation all the time without the possibility of getting any fresh air under any circumstance. I believe 1980sdga is right in pointing out that the pink actuator that works in conjunction with the blue/white one is what controls the 80/20 split when maximum cooling is required. It would be interesting to see if it is possible to somehow have 100% recirc under maximum cooling and 100% fresh air under normal operation, maybe bypassing the pink element would achieve that.
I have my system setup to recirc 100% of the time and don't have a humidity build up issue, and that's in Sao Paulo Brazil where humidity can get up to 85-90% in the summer. I really think if the drains are ok even with 100% recirc there should be no fogging of the windows.
Tks,
Joe
How is yours set up for 100% recirc? Is the element just not hooked up?
I'm going to try to figure it out when I install the new element but I need the support bearing on the driveshaft :-\ I found that while cleaning out the drains ::)
Not really surprising though. I consider it a wear item.
Yes, I bypassed the element, the vacuum hoses are plugged.
003 981 23 25 - driveshaft support bearing - $26.55 original MB
Tks,
Joe
Hey Joe, does that bearing include the rubber around it? I need to look and see exactly what I need.
No it doesn't,
123 410 10 81 - rubber mount - $54.00 original MB or $40.00 for Bilstein
Tks,
Joe
you guys might find this intresting.
ebay Link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-Air-Conditioning-Manual-450SE-450SEL-6-9-W116-/330512718451?pt=Motors_Manuals_Literature&hash=item4cf417da73)
I found it will looking for parts.
calvin
Quote from: calvin streeting on 26 May 2011, 05:35 PM
you guys might find this intresting.
ebay Link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-Air-Conditioning-Manual-450SE-450SEL-6-9-W116-/330512718451?pt=Motors_Manuals_Literature&hash=item4cf417da73)
I found it will looking for parts.
calvin
VERY INTERESTING ;D The seller is in Ca. and is also on ebay US. I just ordered a copy.
Only 28 pages but some of the sample pages look promising!
Where are these "elements," in the dash or the engine compartment?
Hemersam
Quote from: Hemersam on 26 May 2011, 06:45 PM
Where are these "elements," in the dash or the engine compartment?
Hemersam
Take a look at the ACC manual in the library. The elements (or "pods") are under the dash and are the vacuum actuators that move the vent flaps from defrost to bi level etc. There are also some that control fresh air intake.
It gets complicated because some of the vacuum signals are triggered by electric solenoids and some of the electric solenoids are controlled by vacuum :D :P ;D
Like I said, print out the manual and check it out.
Cool manual!!!
Joe
I've had dealings with that ebay seller before, many of his manuals are not originals, he simply copies them and binds them himself. He also tends to make up sections of a manual and sell them separately rather than a whole
manual, be very sure what you are buying.
Quote from: 1980sdga on 26 May 2011, 06:16 PM
VERY INTERESTING ;D The seller is in Ca. and is also on ebay US. I just ordered a copy.
Only 28 pages but some of the sample pages look promising!
From the preview pics on ebay it looks like one of MB "Intoduction to" manuals, explains theory but no nitty gritty of what's actually in the car. My MB A/C manual is about 250 pages.
koan
I like the spiel about the reproduction of materials only being done to benefit MB owners and its not done for profit.
I'm absolutely sure a 28 page saddle stitched booklet does not cost $22 US to produce - it'd be far less than a single dollar - unless it was hand bound and printed with a crappy domestic printer.
Also, if it really was for the benefit of all MB enthusiasts and the sharing of knowledge, the booklet would be released in PDF format F.O.C. ::)
Just an update.
I did a little troubleshooting on my servo/amp situation today and discovered that my servo gets in a bind once everything heats up. (And it's been HOT here!) I loosened the screws that hold the top on and the servo started working. May be an alignment problem with the gears or the plate is misaligned. May be the valve sticking.
I'm thinking about doing a mockup with a 12v power supply and the spare parts I have. Probably just need a new servo like Joe said.
I haven't received the manual from ebay but I can mail copies to someone if they could make it a PDF and post it somewhere.
Zombie thread!
I finally received the AC book today. It has a lot of info that I haven't seen any where else and is pretty readable with lots of illustrations.
Anyway, I don't have any way to turn it into postable material but if someone would like to take the time then please PM me with an address and I'll mail a copy to you.
It has some pretty cool breakdowns of the system and I'd like to get it out to the group.
Update...
After a lot of deliberation I decided to order a rebuilt aluminum servo instead of the UT digital kit. The UT kit bypasses the recirc/fresh air part of the system and since I got mine working I'd hate to lose the function. Plus I'm a smoker and it's damned good for clearing out smoke !
I have 2 amps that work so hopefully a new servo will get the system responding like it should.
I finally got the aluminum servo. ACC is functional AGAIN!
(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww112/jhoff/SANY0019.jpg)
This project is only slightly over budget...
Congratulations Jon!
Nice move in deciding to keep the system original as far as the servo/amp setup. I am always a little leery of mods such as the UT because if something does go wrong you are stuck, whereas keeping the original ACC intact will at least provide you with a starting point when you need to diagnose/fix a problem.
Tks,
Joe
Quote from: jbrasile on 15 September 2011, 09:30 PM
Congratulations Jon!
Nice move in deciding to keep the system original as far as the servo/amp setup. I am always a little leery of mods such as the UT because if something does go wrong you are stuck, whereas keeping the original ACC intact will at least provide you with a starting point when you need to diagnose/fix a problem.
Tks,
Joe
Thanks Joe, I've been running the AL servo for several days now and it works well ;D It is pretty noisy though. Are they supposed have that gear noise? I got it from that Universal German Dismantling in California. It looks freshly rebuilt but I don't know if they service them or not.
Hi Jon,
No they are not noisy at all.... in fact you can only hear it working after your turn the car off and it parks itself. I always recommend the servos from Performance Analysis, George Murphy was probably the first tech who started rebuilding these servos and his units are great.
Tks,
Joe
I can't hear it with the car running. It's a diesel after all :o but I can hear it park and it also makes the gear noise when the temp is adjusted with the engine off. I was expecting it to be quieter than my old one but it sounds about the same. This one does seem to work consistantly though. No problems so far and the amp isn't getting red hot anymore ;D
I tried contacting George Murphy for a couple of weeks before buying this one but he may be on vacation or something. I'm going to try to get him to rebuild one of my amps.
Thanks for the help Joe!