AC not cooling that well and need R12

[jsilvidi]

Hi I just took my car in to see why its not cooling that well. I was told that it was not converted from the R12. I found R12 canisters for sale in my area and was wondering if this is a do it yourself project and how?

[koan]

Hi I just took my car in to see why its not cooling that well. I was told that it was not converted from the R12. I found R12 canisters for sale in my area and was wondering if this is a do it yourself project and how?

I assume you are in the US if you "found R12 canisters for sale in my area". Don't know if it is a DIY project but plenty of people do.

A web search will find plenty of info on how to do it.

koan

[jsilvidi]

Hey Koan. You helped me with my power windows a few months back. Forgot to say thanks. I changed the fuse and nothing happened. After a few days they magically started working again.

[Big_Richard]

i would ensure there are no leaks before attempting any kind of recharge of the system - otherwise its money disappearing up into the atmosphere and destruction of the ozone layer if its r12 

[thysonsacclaim]

As koan says, youre probably in the US if you can get R12. However, since it is bad for the environment it will be fairly expensive compared to 134a.

I converted my 86 Dodge Ramcharger from R12 and didnt notice a reduction in cooling. Some people say 134 is not as effective, but I can only tell you from my experience that it seemed the same.

The conversion kits come with a gauge and hose to fill it with, label to note it has been converted, the correct fittings and caps and the 134a and oil. When I bought mine it was about $40 for the whole kit. That was about 10 years ago.

Before you convert, you want the system sucked out. Shops do this and I dont think it costs too much because if they recover any R12, they recycle it and resell it.

If it has leaked, though, youll need to address that first. You can buy the leak detector. I think its about $6 a can. I was lucky enough to see which hose leaked in my 450sel so I didnt need it. You could replace the part or test your luck with canned leak stopper. Best to replace what went afoul, though.

You might do well to replace the o-rings as well and perhaps the receiver drier if it is original. It wouldnt hurt and they arent very much. I think I saw the drier for $35 somewhere.

Just thought I'd add in that the only legitimate source of R12 in the US is freon that has been sucked out of older cooling system aka recycled. It is no longer produced. So, as time goes on, it will only skyrocket in price as it is limited in supply.

Also, it is very much illegal to buy or sell unless you are a professional mechanic. I dont think it is legal for consumer use, but you should check. If you can easily get a hold of it without preseting a license, I'd question the source. Anyone who is willing to bypass the laws regarding R12 is likely to bypass the proper cleaning and recycling of it as well. It needs to be properly cleaned and filtered before being reused.

[Hemersam]

Forget 134; it doesn't cool as well as r12 in these older MBs. Yes, r12 is hard to find (and there are legal questions), but by no means impossible. A friend just today changed my 116 back from 134, which simply wouldn't cool the car with outside temps of 100+, to r12. Guess what? The car cools much better now and I am a much happier person. As far as the environment goes, well, should we all junk our 116s and buy Priuses? Never!
Hemersam

[thysonsacclaim]

In an older R12 system where the pressure is either too high or too low for 134a to operate efficiently, there are R12 replacements. 134a is NOT a bonafide replacement because it does not meet all the specs as R12. It is like gasoline and diesel fuel. One doesn't directly replace the other; they operate optimally in different conditions.

Replacements for R12 are available, though. One I know of is called Freeze 12, but there are numerous others. They generally perform to the same specs as R12 or better, within the same pressure ranges and all I've seen outperform 134a.

As far as the environment goes, well, should we all junk our 116s and buy Priuses? Never!

Certainly not. But if there were a simple, cheap and effective replacement or addition to your vehicle to increase it from ~18MPG to 35MPG, would you do it? Probably. Same applies with R12. It is old, hard to come by, expensive, illegal in most cases, and terribly bad for the ozone. Gases such as Freeze 12 and 134a are superior in many ways. Obviously it depends on the AC system on which you should use.

Having said that, one need only look at satellite images over Australia or the Antarctic to see what propellants, aerosols and gases like R12 have done. Australia has a large incidence of skin cancer, for example, and one of (the many) implicated causes is ozone depletion. There are similar hot/arid regions in the world where the rates are much lower.

Ozone is depleted, causing more UV rays. UV ray exposure increases the risk of skin cancer. Cancer and radiation (sunlight) damage DNA, making adaptation to increases to UVA and UVB hard. Continued use of R12 contributes to the problem. Not using R12 is pretty simple to do.

If there weren't readily available replacements, I would completely agree with you. But there are many ways around the problem and most are cheaper than sticking with R12.

Cheers

[Hemersam]

Thysonacclaim: well, you almost made me feel guilty for going back R12 from 134a. However, that change produced r12 air that is definitely cooler than the 134a previously in my '78 280SE (not dramatic, but definitely noticeable). Alright, what about this Freeze 12---is it cooler than r12? If so, I'd be glad to try it. It gets terribly hot and humid in Texas this time of year, and I don't want to drive for 20 minutes waiting to feel any significant comfort in my car (compressor and receiver/dryer changed last year, evaporator less then six years ago); my wife won't even get in the car until October comes (Camry owner). I don't wish to sound snide; I just want to have some firm information on what might cool my car better than r12. Who is out there with real experience; I'd love to hear from Thysonacclaim again and anyone else. Thanks for reading my epistle. 
Hemersam
Dallas, Texas

[thysonsacclaim]

I didn't mean to make you feel guilty. Sorry about that. I'm responding via my phone, so I can't link info very easily.

However, while writing that post I was looking at a chart that has a list of refrigerants with info about the required pressure at various temps

I will post the chart. I do remember it said at 100F R12 requires 117 PSI to operate efficiently whereas R134a requires 124 PSI. So your observations are right about the lesser cooling I think because 134a will require more pressure. It also doest transfer heat as well.

I am very glad you posted your experience, which led me to find the chart. I was thinking of switching to 134a as well, but now I will consider one of the other gases. I had only heard it cooled less well, but didn't have any experience with this or numbers to back it up. The chart pretty much shows they do need different pressures.

I'll look around some more because I am working on my AC anyway. I think Freeze 12 and others are mixes of other gases combined so they operate more closely to R12.

Whatever I find worthy through my researching will be something I myself will use.

If you have R12 in there already, you should just leave it. It only is harmful when it escapes. However, if you can find out if you can sell it back to a shop, I believe the regular price in the US is $50+ per pound. The gases I'm looking at are much heaper than that. You can get 3 pounds of 134a, for example, for maybe $20-$40 depending where you go.

Anyway I'll check into and report back.

[thysonsacclaim]

The products I am looking at right now are Envirosafe, Duracool, and Envirosafe.

By the way, I figured out how the law generally works in the USA. You can buy R12, but you need an MVAC license to purchase it on your own. It MIGHT vary from state to state as some states may require their own papers, too. You definitely need the license from the EPA, though.

To get the license, you must take the 609 License Certification Exam from an authorized third party, such as this one: EPAtest.com.

This is NOT the official EPA site. It is a site authorized by the EPA to grant licenses. You take a test for a 609 License, pass it and get the license. You can then buy a limited quantity of R12. I am going to take the test and get the license. It is cheap and legally certifies you to work on MVAC systems (automotive cooling systems).

EPA website 609 License information
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/technicians/609certs.html

Refrigerants operating temperature and pressure chart
http://www.chillers.com/PT%20charts%20for%20refrigerants.htm

Red tek 12a
Red tek 12a: http://www.redtek.ca

It is a drop-in replacement for R12 and 134 and requires no modifications. It cools 8% more efficiently than R12.

Problem is I see only one distributor in the US and I can't find pricing just yet.



Duracool
http://www.duracool.com

According to the site it is much better than 134a and slightly better than R12. This stuff seems hard to come by. I couldn't find anywhere that sold it.



Envirosafe
www.es-refrigerants.com

This is the best one I've seen so far. Drop-in replacement for R12 and the kit is about the same price as a 134a retrofit kit, around $40 USD. requires no modifications to the system and is compatible with synthetic oil (used in R134a systems) and mineral oil (used in R12 systems). This is the refrigerant I will use in a few weeks when I fix the leak in my AC hose.

Here is a chart comparing Envirosafe to HFCs 134a and 12.

TEMP           R12     E-S            R134a
C      F         psi       psi            psi
38   100      119      115           126


At 100F, E-S needs LESS pressure than R12, unlike 134a, which needs a few more pounds. This would seemingly helps folks who live in hotter climates. It cannot be sold overseas and is only available in the contiguous United States (not Alaska or Hawaii) because of regulations concerning the shipment of flammable gases.

"Each 6 oz can of Enviro-Safe Refrigerant with dye will replace 16 oz of 134a or 18 oz of R12. ENVIRO-SAFE ES-12a is up to 32% more efficient than R-12 and much more efficient than R-134a."





And just for future reference:

"In 2012 the EPA will be banning R134a, R22a & R502a from the market place due to increased Global Warming caused by these Refrigerants."

The newer cars will be using CO2 or hydrocarbons similar to Envirosafe.

[Hemersam]

Thysonsacclaim: please post what results you get from using Envirosafe refrigerant. I'd very much like to know ow that works out compared to R12. Thanks.
Hemersam

[Hemersam]

Thysonsacclaim: not to nag, but I sure hope you'll post your results with using Envirosafe. I'm very interested in how that works out as compared to R12.
Hemersam

[thysonsacclaim]

I definitely will post pictures, the process and will measure the air vent output temperature. Unfortunately, the AC system leaked before I could take temperature readings. The pressure hose that goes to the condenser failed.

It will take me another few weeks to gather the necessary funds as I'm rather poor when the school semester is in session  . I need the following items replaced:

1: New Receiver/Drier
2: New Pressure hose*
3: The Envirosafe retro kit
5: Pressure sensor

*I can't find the factory hose online. I'll have to get one made, which will probably cost an arm and a leg.

[dudu]

Also, you can replace the R12 with ISCEON 49 without replacing anything on your AC system. Also, it doesn´t hurt the atmosphere ( neither ozone.. )

More info at : http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_GB/assets/downloads/k10785_uk.pdf

Regards.

[alabbasi]

I've had good luck with R134 in my 6.9. It was converted prior to my ownership and was done right with new hoses etc. The problem with R12 alternatives is that they are blends of a refrigerant that was not designed to work with R12 oil, and some sort of catalyst to help carry the  mineral oil. In the example of Freeze12, it's 80% R134 and 20% catalyst.

The disadvantages for this is.

1) No shop will touch your car with their recovery machines unless you have R12 or R134 because it will contaminate their supply.
2) As it's a blend, if it leaks, the blend of gases will leak at different rates and as a result you cannot top up. You just need to evacuate and recharge or else you will have the wrong balance of the blend which could damage your system.
3) R134 and most other blends have smaller molecules then R12 and as a result, will leak through the hoses unless you replace with barrier hoses.
4) Hydrocarbon based refrigerants such as propane and envirosafe (which I believe is propane) are illegal to use in automotive applications here in the US, and potentially dangerous because of their flammable nature.

Of the blends, I have had the best luck with R406a which cools very well.

I have used it on a number of cars including a W115 240D and my own 560SEL and have been very happy with the results. The pressures are a little higher then R12 but it cools as well.

If you're inclined to do your own work, then I would consider it.