'76 280SE

[chrismsullivan]

Hi all,

I've been visiting this site,along with others, for a while now and thought it about time to register given that I now have a W116. I've been on the lookout for a W108 in particular, but came across the W116 on eBay for cheap. I couldn't resist!
Now I have the W116 in the drive way and a W108 on the way this weekend also. It's going to be crowded.



So the W116 is in reasonable condition. There is a slight misfire when coming off throttle, anywhere through the rev range. It has a new dizzy cap, leads and plugs but from what I can tell the leads and plugs aren't OEM spec, so I'm thinking of replacing the plugs and leads as a starting point, then having a closer look at the distributor itself.
Other than that, the odometer doesn't work, the top of the rear seats are sunburnt, has a slight tear in the drivers seat, a few bumps and scrapes and in need of trimming detail and replacement of a few switches e.t.c.
The only real major things that appear to be wrong is that someone has completely removed the sunroof motor - Very annoying but a decent challenge to get that going again.
I've also been advised that there is a leak in the rear suspension. I'm yet to get under the car to have a proper look, but hopefully it won't be too hard to fix up.

So far the site has been a great reference. I look forward to chatting with you all.

Cheers,
Chris

[s class]

Welcome.....

That's a nice looking car.  Its not clear in the photo, but is it dark metallic grey, or a dark olive colour?

[oscar]

Hi Chris, do you know if it's got d-jet or k-jet injection? '76 onwards are supposed to be k-jet but there's always the odd anomaly and I was thinking about your misfire when backing off.  In my 350 d-jet I had a faulty Throttle Position Sensor that casued a slight surge then stumble when backing off.  That could be your problem there, if it's a d-jet.  If it's k-jet then no idea what's causing it. 

As far as the odometer's concerned, if the speedo's working but odo not then it's due to a single cog that's not turning with a shaft.  In the pic below it's the cog at the far right in the top row, appearing grey in this photo. I've had a mechanic fix it once in 2004, then it failed a while after, then I tried to fix mine twice since then and it failed again a year ago.   

The following is the best link I've come across for odo repair.  It's not for a w116 as such but when it comes to the internals of the odo it looks just like ours.
http://www.dieselgiant.com/repairyourodometer.htm

[chrismsullivan]

Welcome.....

That's a nice looking car.  Its not clear in the photo, but is it dark metallic grey, or a dark olive colour?

It's not in bad shape at all. I actually snuck it out for a drive (under vic roads permit while it's not registered) and thoroughly enjoyed the drive.

It's a metallic dark olive colour, which at first I thought was a bit strange, but it's growing on me.

Hi Chris, do you know if it's got d-jet or k-jet injection? '76 onwards are supposed to be k-jet but there's always the odd anomaly and I was thinking about your misfire when backing off.  In my 350 d-jet I had a faulty Throttle Position Sensor that casued a slight surge then stumble when backing off.  That could be your problem there, if it's a d-jet.  If it's k-jet then no idea what's causing it.  

As far as the odometer's concerned, if the speedo's working but odo not then it's due to a single cog that's not turning with a shaft.  In the pic below it's the cog at the far right in the top row, appearing grey in this photo. I've had a mechanic fix it once in 2004, then it failed a while after, then I tried to fix mine twice since then and it failed again a year ago.  

The following is the best link I've come across for odo repair.  It's not for a w116 as such but when it comes to the internals of the odo it looks just like ours.
http://www.dieselgiant.com/repairyourodometer.htm

That's great info, thanks Oscar.

I'm pretty sure it's a K-Jet, but will double check. Over the last few days I've been fiddling around with it a bit. I've checked all the leads and dizzy, some of the earths and managed to close the airbox properly (it was hanging open)

After a drive today, it seemed to be going a little better, with the misfire taking place only occasionally. Is there potential that there was bad fuel in the lines due to it sitting around for so long and only been driven from a workshop into the street for the last year or so?

In any case, I will check the fuel injection system again - What is the best way to determine the type of system? I do have the original log books and manual. Perhaps this info is listed in there?
I'll also be changing plugs and leads too.

That info about the odometer is great. It looks like a fiddly job, but very necessary.

I'm really baffled about the missing sunroof motor too. The switch is in the dash, with butchered wires for the switch just hanging behind it.
It would appear that the plug for the motor is still attached in the boot, but the tube for the cable has been removed. I think I'll be making a trip to the wreckers and getting busy with removing the headlining very soon... Just as long as the W108 that's coming on the weekend doesn't distract me too much.

Thanks for the replies.

Chris

[chrismsullivan]

Oh, one more thing. I thought the guy I bought it from said that it had the self levelling rear suspension and that it had a leak on one side. After looking in the engine bay, I couldn't see any oil reservoir or lines that would indicate as such. I could only see the AC compressor, the washer bottle, and the big white power steering bottle/pump up buy the passenger firewall.

Should I be looking for anything specifically, or does the pressure lines and reservoir only apply to models with full airbag suspension?

It's highly likely that I'm confused about the setup, so any information about how best to determine the rear suspension setup would be great.

(obviously I need to find the time to jack it up and have a good look around!)

[joshm]

Hi Chris, nice car - congratulations!

This link may help you on your path to odo happiness - I have the same problem and plan on diving in sometime soon. Let us know how you get on, since I may be back for tips if you get there before me...

Repair your odometer (W116)

Cheers, Josh

[oscar]

To see if you've got SLS you should have a reservoir for the suspension fluid on the left hand side of the engine bay that is either one of these two (metal early version, plastic later version).   Your "big white steering pump" thing sounds like that's the SLS reservoir.

Where abouts did the seller say the leak is?  If it's at the rear, fluid will apear on the floor eventually depending on rate.  If the fluid is  disappearing from the reservoir but no trace on the ground then it's likely the SLS pump is leaking into the engine.  It'll need a rear seal replaced if that's the case.  The pump is at the front of the engine, top left corner of cam box when facing the engine and looks like the first pic.



The two types of reservoirs for suspension fluid.



The easiest way to tell what fuel injection you've got is to look at the air cleaner.

(carburettor)


d-jet


early k-jet snorkel over the engine


late k-jet snorkel facing forward


Regarding the bit of misfiring and old fuel....just start mixing 98RON in and after a while you should be on pure good stuff. (so long as you get to drive it a bit of course)  Even if you're storing it, mix a bit of new fuel in there and kick it over a couple times a week making sure it warms up fully before turning off.  A fast drive down the highway wouldn't hurt either.

Can't suggest anything for the sunroof.  Mine never had them.  But one more thing about suspension.  Not being a smart arse to correct you but I saw you say "air bag" and thought I'd give you some FYI for the three types of suspension that were on w116s so  you'll avoid chasing parts for something you haven't got. 
1 - conventional, four springs, four shocks
2 - (SLS) Self Leveling rear Suspension. Two conventional shocks and springs up front.  For the rear, two springs, two struts and two nitrogen filled pressure cells known by a few names like spheres, accumulators...
3 - Full Hydropneumatic Suspension, 450SEL 6.9 only.  Two struts and two spheres up front.  Two struts and two spheres at the rear.  Plus there's a 5th central sphere.  There's no springs in this version and there are no air bag setups for w116s. Airbags were on the w109s and not sure what else.

Anyway, let's hope the w108 doesn't excite you too much and drag you away from the w116.  I'm sure after you drive that thing you'll be back in the w116 in no time.

[chrismsullivan]

Hi Chris, nice car - congratulations!

This link may help you on your path to odo happiness - I have the same problem and plan on diving in sometime soon. Let us know how you get on, since I may be back for tips if you get there before me...

Repair your odometer (W116)

Cheers, Josh

Thanks Josh! Double link pastage there. That's the same one as Oscar posted.

I'll be certain to let you know how it pans out. I'm thinking I might have a crack at it this weekend.

To see if you've got SLS you should have a reservoir for the suspension fluid on the left hand side of the engine bay that is either one of these two (metal early version, plastic later version).   Your "big white steering pump" thing sounds like that's the SLS reservoir....

Lots more stuff, see above for full post.

Thanks a heap Oscar.

OK, so I've found this:


There were no visible leaks to be seen here, so I'll rule it out as the culprit for now.

Yes, my reservoir looks like this:


This was the next place I looked for any leaks. I found that the hose coming out of the bottom of the reservoir was very damp with fluid and there is a large build up of greasy sludge underneath it. I'd say that the hose has perished over time and is leeching fluid out slowly.
I predict that the hose is easy enough to replace with something that can be picked up from an auto store.
The fluid though, do you have any recommendations as to what type of fluid goes into the reservoir and where it can be sourced?
Hopefully this remedies the issue. If anything, it's a great place to start.

Now to this:


I can confirm that I have the d-jet injection. I'm not sure if this assists in helping to diagnose my misfire issue?

The information you provided about the suspension and potential bad fuel is great - not smart arsey in any way, especially given this is my first W116.

Thanks heaps Oscar, I appreciate your input.

Chris

[oscar]

Man I just lost a big post on a work puter that froze.  Just as well, I'm going to make this shorter.

SLS fluid.  ATF not recommended but is often found in neglected cars.  Use Febi, Lemfoerder or MB branded SLS fluid only.  There are a couple of alternates too.  The lot was recently discussed here http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/cost-of-sls-fluid/

Replace that hose you found.  It's just a low pressure supply line and like you say, you should be able to get something cut form a roll from a good auto or engineering/hydraulic shop.  Just make sure it's mineral oil compatible.  You might need to supply inside diameter measurement.  Just use calipers on the two male pipe ends it connects to, not the hose itself.  Another thing, that hose leaked for me too a few years back.  I replaced it, and although the oil stopped leaking to the floor, the fluid kept disappearing.  Through the help of fellow posters I found my pump's rear seal was shot and leaking oil into the crankcase.  So replace that hose, top up your oil and pay close attention to the level.

A 76 d-jet.  That's interesting.  Whilst it's not written in stone that every 76 stamped car became k-jet there's been a few instances where the rule has been broken.  No biggie.  Look through Carl's thread for great reference photos and info
http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/280-se-big-service/

As far as that misfire is concerned I'm thinking it's the TPS, throttle position sensor.  The easiest test is to disconnect the TPS and try a decent run without it.  If the probelm disappears, the TPS is faulty.  Pull the 5 lead plug from the TPS and see how you go.  I fixed my old one sort of but it soon wore out and I just bought less used ones on ebay. 
Have a read here http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/a-warm-engine-running-issue/msg31227/#msg31227

There's also a static test you can perform.  Details are in the next link with a couple of vids of faulty versus good TPS.
http://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/d-jet-tps/

The TPS is circled and the lead faces downwards at an angle towards the engine

[s class]

In your photo below, the power steering pump, and its reservoir which is integrated into the top of the pump, is at about the 7 o'clock position relative to the distributor.  It has a pressed metal cap with a wingnut or knurled thumb-nut retaining it in the centre. 

[chrismsullivan]

Thanks for the replies!

Well, it's exciting times. The W116 has been put in the garage for the moment, just to keep it out of the elements. I'll be making a list of everything that I want to replace on it and going nuts with a parts order soon enough. The idea is to get it to a point that I can get it road worthy and re-registered and using it as a weekend cruiser. It's certainly a nice enough car to drive as is, but I want it to be even nicer!

I've heard that the sunroof motor can be substituted with a window motor? (same part number) if so, which window motor suits - eg, left or right/front or rear?

Once all of the niggly little issues are cleared up, I'll be organising a respray in the factory green and getting some of the carpet and trim replaced.
Oh, I discovered that the original first aid kit is still in the rear parcel shelf! That's gotta be rare.

I've also taken delivery of the W108. She sure needs some work. Someone has done some dodgy rust repairs and painted it silver, with what looks to be from spray cans you can buy from Autobarn. Oh dear.
I went on a road trip with my girlfriend to pick it up, some 300k's out of Melbourne. The car had been sitting for goodness knows how long... Was sitting on nearly flat tyres and wouldn't kick over for a while. I managed to get it going and it made it all the way back to Melbourne with minimal fuss. It hummed along on the highway pretty well, although it was not too much fun when the accelerator stuck and I had to do an emergency shut down and stop. Easy fix though. Another thing I noticed was a grinding noise coming from the rear end when going through banking corners at speed, almost like a tyre rubbing, but mechanical. I figure the rear shafts or diff might be on their way out or that the mounts have perished. I'll not know until I have a closer look.
I was surprised at how tight it felt, there were no creaks or rattles at all.

The zenith twins need refurbisment and adjustment pretty badly as it's running pretty rough and very lean.
The dash and wood work needs fixing.
The seats are in great condition - surprisingly.
The suspension is all good, it tracked well and stopped well.
The instrument panel has sen better days.
The window regulators need replacing, some windows don't go up or down.
There's rust in some of the doors and boot, I'm yet to decide whether I'll repair it or source replacement doors and boot.
Right now I'm in the process of stripping the interior and cleaning it it out (it's very, very dirty. I'll feel better about the whole thing once I've tidied that part of it up a bit and sourced whether there are any other signs of rust. From there I'll investigate the exterior, get it running properly, fix the rust, get it repainted and get the interior back in and spruced up as a final stage.
Other than that, it's straight and solid with reasonable chrome work.

It's going to be a fun project! I'm looking forward to having a mint condition W108 with the added bonus of a mint W116 sitting next to it.

[carl888]

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the M110 fold.  I've a 1974 280 SE and spent most of last year going through it.  I tidied up the interior and the went through the mechanicals.  Oscar posted the link the mechanicals but I also tidied up the interior:

http://forum.w116.org/interiors-and-exteriors/280-se-interior-makeover/

Don't hesitate to ask any questions.

I really like the colour of your car, very black forest!

Regards,

Carl.

[chrismsullivan]

Thanks Carl!

I just had a look through your interior post. You've got a lovely car there! I look forward to getting mine close to that level.

I do have a question for you, based off the back of your bad wiring discovery. My sunroof doesn't work due to the motor being removed, but I also checked the switch in the dash just to make sure that nothing else had been tampered with. I would like to get a new swith and a new adapter, as the old one has been cut off, leaving the wires just hanging behind the dash.

It astounds me that people can be so haphazard with their approach to "fixing" things.

Do you know where I could source these parts? I dare say I could find them online if I searched hard enough...

I also need to know if I can use a window motor in place of the sunroof motor and if so, which of the four window motors will suit.

Cheers,
Chris.

[chrismsullivan]

OK, so I've had a win of sorts....

I've been banging on about the missing sunroof motor right?

I went about pulling off all off the head lining to see if the cable was at least still attached to the sunroof so that I could get it open to inspect wheter there was any rust e.t.c.

Lastly, I took apart the head lining at the front of the car and what did I find?? A bloody sunroof motor sitting between the sunroof itself and the rear view mirror!

Is this normal?

I confirmed that it could manually open by cranking it with an allen key and found that the sills around the roof itself were all clear of any rust.
Next I needed to find if the motor worked.

I had no joy with the switch, so jerry rigged the cables from the motor to the antenna switch.

It works! Perfectly!

Looks as though there's been some dodgy wiring work going on, so I might have to go about re-wiring it all on the weekend.

Once that's done I'll ned to go about re-installing all of the head lining, which will be annoying as I'll need to glue it all back into place. At least I'll be able to tidy up all of the surface rust that has accumulated over the years.

I'll keep you posted.

[carl888]

Thanks Carl!

I just had a look through your interior post. You've got a lovely car there! I look forward to getting mine close to that level.

I do have a question for you, based off the back of your bad wiring discovery. My sunroof doesn't work due to the motor being removed, but I also checked the switch in the dash just to make sure that nothing else had been tampered with. I would like to get a new swith and a new adapter, as the old one has been cut off, leaving the wires just hanging behind the dash.

It astounds me that people can be so haphazard with their approach to "fixing" things.

Do you know where I could source these parts? I dare say I could find them online if I searched hard enough...

I also need to know if I can use a window motor in place of the sunroof motor and if so, which of the four window motors will suit.

Cheers,
Chris.

Chris,

Dunno about the sunroof, sorry.

As for W116 parts, it's hard to go past mbspares in the act, or if you use eBay, just go to ebay.com.au then search "W116 switch" and away you go, make sure you check the "International" field.  Hours and hours of W116 stuff!

Thanks to Oscar, he supplied a switch I needed from his plethora of bits so you might wish to try asking here first.

Good luck,

Carl.