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Garage => Mechanicals => Topic started by: raueda1 on 29 July 2019, 07:51 PM

Title: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 29 July 2019, 07:51 PM
Can anybody confirm whether or not the 6.9 starter is unique to the 6.9?  Or same as 450SE or other models?  Thx,
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: slfan on 29 July 2019, 08:23 PM

It os my understanding that both the Starter and Waterpump are unique to the M100 engine.  Nevertheless, it is best to confirm this via the part numbers.

Regards,

AM
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Jed on 29 July 2019, 09:14 PM
You are correct.  The starter is not the same as the 450SE, or SEL for that matter.

Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 29 July 2019, 11:15 PM
It's similar to the 6.3 M100 but thats it as far as I know.

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 30 July 2019, 07:43 AM
There are rebuilt ones on eBay last time I checked.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 10:55 AM
Quote from: daantjie on 30 July 2019, 07:43 AM
There are rebuilt ones on eBay last time I checked.
There are indeed.  Quite confusing though.  One style has 4 bolt holes and is listed for the M100 engines.  2 are offered, one for $400 the other for $2200.  ????!!?!!!  The other style has 2 bolt holes and is claimed to fit various MB engines including 6.9.  These are, of course, much cheaper. 

I was hoping to save some time by ordering one so I can do the job in 1 shot but now I have little confidence that it will be right one.  Looks like I will indeed have to go by part number - though that's always the best thing anyway.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: rumb on 30 July 2019, 11:04 AM
One could take it to an electric motor repair shop and have rebuilt. I see the bendix. On fleabay from time to time.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 30 July 2019, 12:05 PM
The 400 buck seller looks like a solid outfit. I'd give them a go.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 06:48 PM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 05 August 2019, 11:41 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 06:48 PM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.

Where is the starter on this car? I dug through the Microfilm, but kept getting frustrated with it, and couldn't find the info. I'm suspecting from your commentary (and my visual inspections thus far) that it's somewhere on the bottom of the engine?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 05 August 2019, 12:02 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 05 August 2019, 11:41 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 06:48 PM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.

Where is the starter on this car? I dug through the Microfilm, but kept getting frustrated with it, and couldn't find the info. I'm suspecting from your commentary (and my visual inspections thus far) that it's somewhere on the bottom of the engine?
It's on the lower side of the block on the passenger side, at least on LHD.  It's quite hard to see from the top, you need to get underneath.  It might be on opposite side on RHD cars.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 05 August 2019, 02:57 PM
Quote from: raueda1 on 05 August 2019, 12:02 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 05 August 2019, 11:41 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 06:48 PM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.

Where is the starter on this car? I dug through the Microfilm, but kept getting frustrated with it, and couldn't find the info. I'm suspecting from your commentary (and my visual inspections thus far) that it's somewhere on the bottom of the engine?
It's on the lower side of the block on the passenger side, at least on LHD.  It's quite hard to see from the top, you need to get underneath.  It might be on opposite side on RHD cars.
Ugh, fun. I'll add that to the list of things I need to do this winter.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 27 April 2020, 03:33 PM
Yes, I know, I'm bringing back an old thread, but since I'm finally getting around to doing this myself, I thought it wiser to update this thread, and keep the pertinent info here, rather than start another thread and reference this one.

Quote from: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 06:48 PMThe hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!
This worked for me, as far as getting the bolt out. The upper bolt, btw, is 19mm (at least, mine was). I bought a set of cheap crow's feet, and it was a nightmare getting it to both sit on and stay on the bolt. However, after about two turns it was loose enough I could undo the bolt by hand.

This brings up a question from me: How do I get the starter off? Both bolts are out, but the start is still solidly seated. Partially, I suspect, because of the post, and partially because of the ridiculously tight clearance. I tried tapping both a plastic body shim, and a screw driver (gently) into the gap between the starter and the engine, but to no avail. There isn't enough clearance to get a rubber hammer and tap on it, as friends have suggested I do.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 27 April 2020, 08:29 PM
Sounds to me like it's fused in place by grime, hardened grease, etc.  It shouldn't be overly tight.  If it's clean it will just fall off the flange.  Maybe take a rubber mallet to whack a wooden rod on the end of it?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 28 April 2020, 11:44 AM
Following this one with more interest now that I see it in my future as well... :o

Matt have you wrestled this beast to the ground yet?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 28 April 2020, 02:29 PM
Quote from: raueda1 on 27 April 2020, 08:29 PM
Sounds to me like it's fused in place by grime, hardened grease, etc.  It shouldn't be overly tight.  If it's clean it will just fall off the flange.  Maybe take a rubber mallet to whack a wooden rod on the end of it?

That's about what I was expecting. I'm going to go out today and spray it down with some rust-penetrating WD40, and if that doesn't work I might order a bottle of PB Blaster and give that a shot. A coworker recommended it as being very effective.

Quote from: daantjie on 28 April 2020, 11:44 AM
Following this one with more interest now that I see it in my future as well... :o

Matt have you wrestled this beast to the ground yet?
You're more than welcome to use my lift, if you want to haul your car stateside. By the time I'm done with mine, I'll probably have it figured out well enough the two of us could do it in a day.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: 3l33ter on 02 May 2020, 02:39 AM
Along with 6.9s, I am a Porsche 944 enthusiast. I couldn't help but notice that the starters look almost identical. If I ever have to take mine out I will see if one of my spare 944 ones will fit. Until then, if anyone wants to take a gamble, 944 starters are readily available - I'd try to find an "early" 944 one, which has the bigger body. The later ones were smaller gear reduction ones.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 02 May 2020, 02:55 AM
The Porsche 944 flywheel lock tool also fits perfectly too.

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Punker on 03 May 2020, 03:47 PM
The starter definitely has only 2 fixing screws. I had disassembled the starter recently and put it back on again. See also attached drawing.
Greetings
Björn
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 03 May 2020, 07:10 PM
Quote from: Punker on 03 May 2020, 03:47 PM
The starter definitely has only 2 fixing screws. I had disassembled the starter recently and put it back on again. See also attached drawing.  Greetings
Björn
Is that supposed to be a 6.9 starter?  If so I'm quite certain that it isn't.  The 6.9 starter (and other M100 engines AFAIK) has 4 mounting bolt holes.  I've got 3 of them altogether and they're all 4 bold DESPITE only using 2 of the bolt holes.  I've wondered why - perhaps there are other differences that provide more torque for starting the bigger engine? 
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 03 May 2020, 10:28 PM
Quote from: raueda1 on 03 May 2020, 07:10 PM
Quote from: Punker on 03 May 2020, 03:47 PM
The starter definitely has only 2 fixing screws. I had disassembled the starter recently and put it back on again. See also attached drawing.  Greetings
Björn
Is that supposed to be a 6.9 starter?  If so I'm quite certain that it isn't.  The 6.9 starter (and other M100 engines AFAIK) has 4 mounting bolt holes.  I've got 3 of them altogether and they're all 4 bold DESPITE only using 2 of the bolt holes.  I've wondered why - perhaps there are other differences that provide more torque for starting the bigger engine?
My current one only has two bolt holes, and the one I'm replacing it with only has one. The new one uses just the upper bolt, and the post. It comes with a little disclaimer note from Bosch saying that while it may appear visually different, it's still slated to OEM quality. I can get the part number off it, if you'd like.


Also, update on my status: I have to pull the idler arm off. The bolt of the idler arm is rubbing against my starter, and so there's no way I'll be able to remove the starter without pulling it. I believe at least one of my motor mounts is broken, and I can't help but wonder if that might cause the engine to sit slightly lower than it would otherwise... or maybe the fact it's a 6.9 wedged into a 450SE is the reason. Either way, as soon as I've either someone here to help, or a large enough nut splitter, I'm going to remove the idler arm, and work on getting the starter out.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 03 May 2020, 11:35 PM
My starter has the 4x bolt hole pattern but you only use 2 of them in diagonal fashion.

On my 6.9 I was able to drop it down by just removing the steering damper, which is a 1 minute job, so not bad.  However I had to remove the trans filler tube to get enough space to get a socket on the top bolt head, it is super tight up there and those bolts are TIGHT :o
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 04 May 2020, 03:32 AM
I was under the impression 6.9 starters were NLA as a unit... Two bolt holes in the starter would be for a M117 starter. These may physically fit and work, I'm not sure.

The idler arm clearance issue is probably due to collapsed mounts as you say Mattr. Other 116s do use a different drag link and tie rods, this could also be a factor although I wouldn't have thought the m100 would fit without this being modified beforehand.

Tim

Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: s class on 04 May 2020, 03:04 PM
6.9 has a longer drag link and correspondingly shorter tie rods than the other 116s.  The steering box pitman arm and idler arms have different geometry too.  I forget all the details but I seem to recall that the 6.9 steering box mounting hole locations differ from those of the other cars as well.  That would imply that the idler arm mount is different too.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 11 May 2020, 09:49 PM
Today's update: I realized that I couldn't get the starter out without removing the idler arm, and the idler arm wouldn't come out without the cross member removed, so we dropped the cross member.

I was mistaken, before: my new starter has 3 bolt holes. I just thought that one of them was a post, but it was actually a bolt coming through from the 'back' side that I didn't see initially.


Only bolt left blocking me on the starter is the upper bolt. I can get my crow's foot onto it, but the clearance is so tight, I can't actually get any of my adapters onto the crow's foot. I need to buy a compact flex-joint for it, and maybe a 3/8ths socket wrench as well, and see if that will let me reach it.

(oh, if anyone is really curious: I'm posting what I'm doing to Instagram under 'guildhallgarage' because I'm really damn bored lately. It's pretty terrible photos, but hey, you're probably bored too.)
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: revilla on 12 May 2020, 02:18 AM
Hello there,

Been there. The space for the upper bolt is extremely tight and we're blind when trying to insert the socket.

One thing that worked for me the last few times I removed the starters was to build an extension (about 1 meter long with a flex-joint at the tip) and introduce it from behind parallel to the transmission tunnel. Then, although still tight space, actuate the ratchet from the opposite tip where we have more leverage.  2 people is preferable, 1 introducing/holding the socket in place and the other turning the ratchet. Certainly a less frustrating approach to this challenge.

Good luck.

R
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 02:03 AM
Back to this. Starter is FINALLY out. Next problem? I need to now re-install it. Which brings about a problem: I've no idea where the largest cable (12v main from the battery, I believe) is supposed to connect. The two smallest ones are obvious, the next up someone explained to me where it goes, but they never replied when I asked where the main power connects... and my other 6.9 is currently away getting the interior replaced, so I can't look at it as a frame of reference. Any chance someone can explain it? Ideally with pictures and/or descriptions designed for an idiot?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 21 June 2020, 04:03 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 01:20 PM
Quote from: TJ 450 on 21 June 2020, 04:03 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 21 June 2020, 09:48 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 01:20 PM
Quote from: TJ 450 on 21 June 2020, 04:03 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263 (https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263).  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 22 June 2020, 07:13 PM
Quote from: raueda1 on 21 June 2020, 09:48 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 01:20 PM
Quote from: TJ 450 on 21 June 2020, 04:03 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263 (https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263).  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 22 June 2020, 09:00 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 22 June 2020, 07:13 PM
Quote from: raueda1 on 21 June 2020, 09:48 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 01:20 PM
Quote from: TJ 450 on 21 June 2020, 04:03 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263 (https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263).  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
Unless you (or someone) did something bizzarre, this is the battery cable.  The ground cable bolts to the frame supporting the battery tray.  The large cable should therefore connect to the large terminal on the solenoid along with the large cable with white insulation.  The latter goes back to the large terminal block under the battery and powers up the rest of the car.  I'd suggest removing the battery and tray so you can get a close look at this stuff and confirm. 
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 06 December 2020, 01:07 AM
Quote from: raueda1 on 22 June 2020, 09:00 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 22 June 2020, 07:13 PM
Quote from: raueda1 on 21 June 2020, 09:48 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 01:20 PM
Quote from: TJ 450 on 21 June 2020, 04:03 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263 (https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263).  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
Unless you (or someone) did something bizzarre, this is the battery cable.  The ground cable bolts to the frame supporting the battery tray.  The large cable should therefore connect to the large terminal on the solenoid along with the large cable with white insulation.  The latter goes back to the large terminal block under the battery and powers up the rest of the car.  I'd suggest removing the battery and tray so you can get a close look at this stuff and confirm.

--Yes, I know, I'm digging up an old topic, but shortly after this last post I got appendicitis, and between that and changes at work, it wasn't until now that I was even thinking of trying to get back to work on my car.

Did you by chance photo document how the connections are supposed to go? I'm going to look at the battery box you mentioned tomorrow, but my ground cable seems to be frame-mounted next to the starter? My car is an oddity (450SE with a 6.9 stuffed into it), so I've uncovered many a strange thing as I've gone to fix things. I also didn't take any photos before disconnecting the battery, and now I don't recall where any of the connections are supposed to go. I'll go take a photo of the starer tomorrow, and label that and the photo above, then share them. That might be the most efficient method for getting this squared away.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 06 December 2020, 11:17 AM
There should be a heavy braided copper wire running from the frame to bellhousing which is the starter ground.
Of course there is also the negative battery ground to frame too.
The heavy cable in your pic runs to battery positive and onto the large M8 post on the solenoid as Tim stated.
You will need to show a pic of your terminal block under the battery tray.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 06 December 2020, 02:18 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 06 December 2020, 11:17 AM
There should be a heavy braided copper wire running from the frame to bellhousing which is the starter ground.
Of course there is also the negative battery ground to frame too.
The heavy cable in your pic runs to battery positive and onto the large M8 post on the solenoid as Tim stated.
You will need to show a pic of your terminal block under the battery tray.
If it weren't covid I'd try and bribe you to come down and stare at this with me.  :P

I'll grab a photo of the terminal block under the battery tray when I head out there in a bit.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 06 December 2020, 11:55 PM
Quote from: Mattr on 06 December 2020, 02:18 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 06 December 2020, 11:17 AM
There should be a heavy braided copper wire running from the frame to bellhousing which is the starter ground.
Of course there is also the negative battery ground to frame too.
The heavy cable in your pic runs to battery positive and onto the large M8 post on the solenoid as Tim stated.
You will need to show a pic of your terminal block under the battery tray.
If it weren't covid I'd try and bribe you to come down and stare at this with me.  :P

I'll grab a photo of the terminal block under the battery tray when I head out there in a bit.
Yes, that pesky terminal block!  6]I went through all this last spring and have some decent pix, I think.  But I'm traveling, can't send now.  Will do so midweek when I get home unless someone else does in the meantime.  Cheers,
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 07 December 2020, 12:35 PM
Ok here is mine, excuse the grime, I have since cleaned it up a bit ;D
I have a 4 post terminal block, and the 3x wires (excluding the heavy positive cable running to + on battery) run from the solenoid to the terminal block.
The heaviest of the 3 gets connected with the + battery cable onto the post onto the large post on the solenoid.  There is also another large post, but you will see a braided copper wire here running to the starter body, so do not confuse these 2.  This cable then connects on the "top" in my pic, circled in red
The middle sized wire connects to terminal "50", also known as "S" terminal.  This wire then connects at the "bottom", in green section.
Then the last, thinnest wire connects to the ignition terminal on the solenoid, it is the top most connection with the starter in situ.  This wire then connects in the yellow section.
I hope this helps, and at least this is how mine is wired.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 07 December 2020, 07:01 PM
Here is the corresponding connections on the starter.  You will see I also have a black coloured wire at the "green" connection, this wire runs to the coil, not sure if you have this on your setup:
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 12 December 2020, 04:07 PM
Here's photos of the terminal block under the battery tray.

I took a couple other photos, but they all wound up being rather monstrous, due to the camera on my phone. If this isn't adequate, let me know and I can take more, or try to compress those so they'll be allowed.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 12 December 2020, 04:37 PM
Hmmm it looks like your connections at present differ from mine.  The only advice I can give now is to try and trace each wire from the starter back to the terminal block and to see if you can determine the 3 thicknesses of these wires.  However not sure if then you should follow my setup, sorry but I think you will need an auto electrical guru to assist further :-\
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 12 December 2020, 05:09 PM
OK hold up, let me not give up now :)

I fished out the wiring diagram, maybe this will help (or not, ha-ha).  So here goes...

You should notice a heavy red wire running from your alternator, this then connects on the "2nd from top" connector on the terminal block (I think your pic is upside down BTW).  So on my car, this connection on the terminal block also houses the connection from the battery connection on the starter.  In the wiring diagram this is "30" terminal on the starter (which again also has the heavy wire running to the battery itself).  Red in my pic

Then the "second from bottom" connection on the terminal block should have a thin red/violet wire connected here.  This is also then where you would connect the thinnest of the 3x wires coming from the starter, which connects to terminal "16" on the starter (yellow in my pic).

Lastly the bottom most connector on the terminal block - here you will see a medium sized violet coloured wire connected (this runs to the starter relay "4").  Also here you should see a thin pink/blue wire connected, this runs to the thermo time switch for the cold start valve.  Here you need to connect the medium sized wire from the starter - "50" - green in my pic.

Phew I think that covers it ;)

EDIT

OK, one more point of clarification...I see in your pic, your top most connection on the terminal block houses the thickest wire from starter. If you look at the wiring diagram this appears to be correct, and this top most connection is where you will see the wire connected which runs to the alternator.  Thus if I were you I would keep this as is.

On my car (look at pic) you will see my "red" connection is 2nd from top, and this looks to be the power connection for the headlights.  Not sure why mine is connected here as opposed to the top connection shared with alternator connection(?)  Anyhow, mine works in this fashion, so I will just keep it as is for mine, and I think you should keep yours as is for the red connection.  But then the yellow and green spots should be the same.

Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 13 December 2020, 09:09 PM
Quote from: daantjie on 12 December 2020, 04:37 PM
Hmmm it looks like your connections at present differ from mine.  The only advice I can give now is to try and trace each wire from the starter back to the terminal block and to see if you can determine the 3 thicknesses of these wires.  However not sure if then you should follow my setup, sorry but I think you will need an auto electrical guru to assist further :-\
Hey Daniel, thanks for stepping up and helping with this.  I looked at my pictures and yours are much nicer.  This is a confusing topic, as what I ended up with only used 3 or the terminals on the block.  I couldn't figure out what the 4th large one was and couldn't find it on the schematics either.   :o  Cheers and happy 6.9ing to all.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 19 December 2020, 12:46 AM
Matt what's happening the suspence is killing me  8)
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: nathan on 15 November 2021, 09:29 AM
when searching for info on my 6.9 starter, I got led back to home and this post!
so here is a video I made of removing and replacing a starter on my 6.9
nothing earth shattering for the boffins, but maybe of help to the simpletons like me

https://youtu.be/dipiK-wzGy4
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 17 November 2021, 12:03 AM
Quote from: nathan on 15 November 2021, 09:29 AM
when searching for info on my 6.9 starter, I got led back to home and this post!
so here is a video I made of removing and replacing a starter on my 6.9
nothing earth shattering for the boffins, but maybe of help to the simpletons like me

https://youtu.be/dipiK-wzGy4
Thank you for this. This is a huge help for me, who still hasn't re-installed the starter in their car (it's been a rough pandemic for me). It also helps me understand where the ground on my car is supposed to go, instead of the weird place it currently does.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: nathan on 17 November 2021, 03:12 AM
ha ha, no worries Matt. I thought this post was dead and buried! It looked odd to me in that there are two larger wires on the one bolt with the 13mm nut.  the two different screw heads should prevent you getting them the wrong way around.  you can always try starting it without actually fitting it into the bell housing and ring gear I suppose. I need to buy a new solenoid for my old starter to repair it. good luck matt
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 03 April 2022, 03:15 PM
We got the starter tentatively mounted, but we've noticed something: My starter is a newer Bosch replacement. It has a "Unit may not appear identical to original, but will work perfectly. Trust us. Please. <3" note in the box. While it is visually different, it seems to be a match. I did notice that the lower mount point isn't threaded. I'm going to have to install a nut on it, in order to get the starter to mount.

I'll solve that after I've managed to get the upper bolt installed, since that one is currently proceeding at 1/16th of a turn at a time. I've no idea how Nathan managed to re-install his so speedily (unless there was a bunch of cussing and fumbling cut out of the video  :P ).

Thank you, again, for that video, Nathan. It has made a world of difference for me. I'd been staring at those two little wires for months (years?), and failed to notice they're different sizes. It wasn't until I heard you say it that I noticed that.